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#960824 - 06/18/10 05:44 PM Sugar Gliders = Sugar Bears?
Kim
Unregistered


Ok sorry, I am totally not sure where to post this but I work at Knoxville Center Mall and there was some event with this company that was selling gliders. Im guessing its probably best I dont say the name of the company but they had huge stacks of little cages and a big display. They sold the joey with cage and dry pellet food for about $500. After reading the brochure I was totally appalled at all the bad and incorrect info and after speaking with them, that pretty much sealed the deal for my serious dislike of this company. For the love of.... they are NOT sugar BEARS!! Anyhow, I know if I feel this way there must be others. Is this that same company that everyone was ranting and raving about years ago? Im pretty sure it is but Id like a confirmation on that. I can see them making a lot of reputable and decent breeders very angry.

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#960827 - 06/18/10 05:47 PM Re: Sugar Gliders = Sugar Bears? [Re: ]
victoriarose1982 Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 08/01/09
Posts: 2135
Loc: Seattle, Washginton, USA
Im just guessing thats Perfect Pocket Pets? Or P o ck E T PEts
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Home to now 13 lovely greys!2 mos, and 1 plat mo.:grey: Link, Zelda, Coffee, Crash, Sif, Lily, Thor, Loki, Damiana, Sammy, and Pollux :plat:
and a loving husband

Glide free Hope, Cayden, and Zoey

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#960828 - 06/18/10 05:53 PM Re: Sugar Gliders = Sugar Bears? [Re: victoriarose1982]
Kim
Unregistered


Yup, thats them. Sorry mods if Im overstepping a boundary here. Edit me if you have to.

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#960843 - 06/18/10 06:48 PM Re: Sugar Gliders = Sugar Bears? [Re: ]
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/01/06
Posts: 21060
Loc: Kansas
Hi Kim, Could you please PM me the name of the mall, address, and phone number?

Thank you!

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#960854 - 06/18/10 07:13 PM Re: Sugar Gliders = Sugar Bears? [Re: LSardou]
Kim
Unregistered


Yeah, I actually have to look that up lol Pretty sad considering I work there. Ill have that PM to ya in a few.

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#960899 - 06/18/10 08:53 PM Re: Sugar Gliders = Sugar Bears? [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Hi Kim! Long time no see! You have been out of the loop for a while apparently.

Perfect Pocket Pets, aka Virgil Klunder, probably the largest MILL broker in the country calls them Sugar Bears. He does this so that his "customers" can't find any good information about sugar gliders once they get home with them.

There are TONS of posts on GC about (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets and their horrible deeds.
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Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#961004 - 06/19/10 04:16 AM Re: Sugar Gliders = Sugar Bears? [Re: Dancing]
Kim
Unregistered


Yeah Ive been out of the loop for a very long time. I thought that was the reason they call em Sugar Bears. I took home one of their brochures since I didnt have time to read it thoroughly at work. What I did read of it at work was truly horrible. Talk about bad information. I asked the 'employess' how long they had gliders. The oldest said 2 1/2 years and Im like.. uhh yeah, my boy is 12 years old now, you guys have no idea how bad this operation is. Then after, I had gone back to work and couldnt focus on what I was doing for the rest of the day.

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#961020 - 06/19/10 07:15 AM Re: Sugar Gliders = Sugar Bears? [Re: ]
Kim
Unregistered


Im at work now and their display is still here so Im guessing they are going to be here today in case anyone wants to come out and see them. Just to let ya'll know. The mall isnt open yet and none of the 'employees' are here so I cant ask them when they are leaving.

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#961219 - 06/19/10 05:00 PM Re: Sugar Gliders = Sugar Bears? [Re: ]
Kim
Unregistered


Ok so.. wow, what a day I had at work. Anyhow, Ive got a lot to say. Before I say ANYTHING, let me specify that Ive never done business with (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets. Ive not bought a glider, a wheel, a pouch.. nothing. Ive only, as of today, had a conversation at length with the manager, Matt.

I asked a lot of questions about the things that I dont like/agree with. One of the biggest things that got me was vet Care, in the brochure. Its where they compare the 'Average Cost of Owning a Pet". There is a cat, dog and glider. The vet care says no cost, or 0. I told him that is complete BS. Glider vet bills are very expensive. He said what that means is the continual monthly/yearly cost of a glider at the vet. They dont get any vaccinations or deworming and any of that so they say its no continual cost. Part of this.. I understand. Part of it, I think is misleading. I have never taken my gliders to the vet at regular intervals. Mostly when something happened. In fact, its been a lot of years now since my gliders have been. I have only one glider left. He is 12 years old. Im obviously doing something right. (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets is actually sort of correct on this one. I still think its misleading to new owners because how will they know what the cost of a glider emergency can be? Those bills can be horrible. So that was one big issue I had with the brochure.

Another thing I dont like is how the brochure calls them low maintenance. I disagree. However, I guess if you simplify it down in a business operation, where you broker the gliders out.. feeding a pellet diet and telling new owners they dont need regular ongoing vet care, perhaps that sort of makes them low maintenance. It uncomplicates the diet, which in itself can be very complicated. I still will always call a sugar glider a high maintenance pet.

diet.. Im not going to touch this one guys. I dont like pellet diets, period. I did feed my gliders Briskys when that first came out in 1998 or 1999 but it didnt last and since then, I will have nothing to do with any other pellet diet that followed Briskys. Not for a sugar glider. I believe diet in captivity should mimic diet in the wild as close as it can be. In nutrients and texture. Thats all Im going to say about that to prevent a war.

Heat rocks.. I dont have an opinion on this but I know a lot of people do. Ive never used one, never needed to, have no experience with them.

I dont like or agree with mixing gliders with cats and dogs. My cats, dogs, prairie dogs, and anything else never showed interest in my gliders but its common sense to not mix them. Accidents have happened before and they will happen again. Prevention is the key. In fact, just a couple weeks ago my mom was outside with our dog, a pug. Many times she had run on the outside of our neighbors fence and played with their dogs. The dogs have even come on our property and played with our dog. All it took was a few seconds for her to get out of my moms sight and dig under my neighbors fence(its not a buried fence, its just posted up wire) and the dogs grabbed her and killed her... it happened it seconds. Devastating disaster. Prevent these kinds of things with sugar gliders and dont mix them with cats and dogs.

I asked about why they call them "Sugar Bears". I dont like this name and I did tell Matt that I read that they change the name so people google that and only find their proprietary information. Nothing outside of that. He said no, in fact in China and Japan?? (I think) they call them Sugar Bears and it was mostly just a marketing tool.

One of the good things I observed was the wheels they sell. Wodent wheels. I dont know the general opinion on sugar glider wheels anymore but this is a good wheel in my opinion. Ive been using them for 10 years now and never had a problem. My gliders have always been fine with them. Ive seen many worse wheels they COULD be selling so theres at least one good thing Ive made a point to notice.

Matt told me that they DO in fact turn people away. I thought that maybe they just sold gliders to anyone to make the money. He said they will turn people away when they feel its not a good home/situation. As of when he told me that, he said they had only sold 1 glider so far. It was to someone that drove all the way from Nashville because they heard they were in town. Im glad to see people turned away when they personally feel its a bad situation.

I remember reading somewhere that someone said they asked for the USDA license number and whoever they asked from (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets, at least I THINK it was (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets, wouldnt give it to them and made it look like perhaps they werent licensed. It could have been another breeder/broker/company tho. Just for the record I did ask Matt for the USDA license number and he showed me. He showed me much more in fact, from several states. I have to say, it was impressive.

I know many of you have had bad experiences with (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets. Maybe it wasnt the same (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets. Matt said there are a few companies with the same name popping up and also Steve Larkin, who are confusing people about which company is which. This (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets is owned by Virgil Klunder. Its NOT Steve Larkin. I personally did not see any of the joeys they sell. I do not know how young they are. If they ARE in fact underage, I think thats terrible. Matt had a joey with him in pocket and he said it was 8 weeks because thats what they are told when they broker. To me, that joey looked closer to 6 weeks. How could either of us know for sure?? We cant. Its sad and it sucks but thats the reality of it.

I dont like mill breeding. Of ANY species. I think its disgusting. I dont like selling animals at malls and pet stores and anywhere other than breeders who breed for the best of the animal. I almost wish that instead of using S&S Exotics, they would use decent breeders who breed for the betterment of the species. The problem seems almost paradoxial. Decent breeders wont broker joeys to people who sell at malls, trade shows, flea markets and the like. It would seem better that companies that sell to these places shouldnt exit. However, they DO exist. So that isnt going to work. The only way to help this situation is to make it better for what it is. Educate the businesses and work WITH THEM, not AGAINST them. There is nothing anyone can do to stop a business from selling live animals in malls and trade shows, etc. As long as they do it within the law. As far as I can personally tell(again, I didnt do business with them, only took time out of my work day to have a conversation) there is nothing they are doing to break the laws.

Further more, as soon as I found out that Virgil is going to the SGGA to face people he knows would like to kill him in his sleep, I found that pretty darn commendable. More so if he changes some of the things he does. Education people, not anger and hate. I dont agree with it all either and the things I have heard did make me upset but I am not basing my opninions on anything other than what I personally saw, felt and was told in conversation. I cant use other peoples experiences when they are not my own. Matt did invite me to talk to him tomorrow after the mall closes but I am off tomorrow and I cant make it. He said I can always email him tho.

So that has been MY experience with (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets. Im sorry to disappoint for anyone who wanted to see me grill them. I couldnt find reason, just disagreement on some issues.

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#961231 - 06/19/10 05:28 PM Re: Sugar Gliders = Sugar Bears? [Re: ]
Kim
Unregistered


Arghh I knew Id forget something. I forgot a few things but one I just remembered to mention was the links on the brochure. They are to (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets proprietary websites/info. I mentioned this. I asked Matt why there isnt a link to GC. There were a few reasons. 2 that I remember were because people on GC, as an overall whole, dont like pellet diets and dont like (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets diet. Matt said when people come here and get told to change their diet, they change it right away with no transition and cause the glider to get sick. This is true, new people dont always know you have to do a slow transition on a diet change with a glider. Also, from a business standpoint, why would you give a link to forums where you know people dislike your business there? Good point.

I feel, however, that to improve their image, they should include links to many different sugar glider resources. Glider Central, Sugarglider.com, etc. I think it would help them get a better education on keeping sugar gliders. If they were able to improve their image from so many people hating them, perhaps they wouldnt need to worry about customers being led astray from their business. Just a thought.

Another thing I forgot.. they sell neutered males. Reguardless of where the males came from(mill breeder or not), they are neutered. I think this is another good point. Not only should mill gliders NOT be bred any further because of possible and likely blood lines being crossed too closely but also due to plain old bad breeding standards. Then theres a whole fad pet thing to worry about more gliders being accidentally born or intentionally bred by idiots.

I know there is a lot of negative to look at but Im making it a point to look at the positive here also. Figure out how to make the negative into positive as much as possible in this situation.

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#961247 - 06/19/10 06:13 PM Re: Sugar Gliders = Sugar Bears? [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
Reguardless of where the males came from(mill breeder or not), they are neutered.


What you need to understand about this is (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets gets their joeys at 7 weeks oop and they are already neutered. This means they are being neutered VERY early and there is a good chance that the testies have not dropped into the sack yet. How many of these gliders, neutered too young, still have their testies in their body cavity? And how many of those are going to die from cancer because of it?

Also, most vets (atleast 4 that have neutered for me) will not neuter until the joey is of a certain weight because of the dangers of the isoflorin gas being based on weight. So this leads me to ask just HOW are these baby joeys getting neutered? Are they being done humanely with isofloring gas and pain meds? Probably not.

I'm sorry Kim but you will sure have a very hard sell getting folks to accept any of (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets's business practices. They use the excuse that "they are not a mill breeder", they are brokers yet they are buying from mills, therefore just as guilty of animal cruelty.

Also, as for the diet changes. I've had hundreds of rescues come in to me. Some on BML but most on either pellet diets or flat out JUNK food diets and I put them all on my diet the very first night. I've NEVER had one get sick from sudden diet change. Not in 11 years. But I have seen the damage done to their health from these pellet diets.


Edited by Dancing (06/19/10 06:15 PM)
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#961253 - 06/19/10 06:38 PM Re: Sugar Gliders = Sugar Bears? [Re: Dancing]
Kim
Unregistered


Good point about the neutering that young. That is something I hadnt thought of. Like I said, looong day at work and I will definitely address that one to Matt and see what he says. I agree with you.

Like I said, I dont agree with a lot of what they do. I dont like it either but they are not simply going to go away. Dislike them all you want, definitely, by all means.. but since they arent going to disappear, maybe its a wiser tactic to try to work with them to make changes? ESPECIALLY if the owner is willing to go to SGGA where he knows he's hated? Grasp the opportunity1! At least I think thats perhaps a better way to go about it. It reminds me of a really bad toothache on a weekend. You cant make it go away til the dentist opens but you can try to make things a little more comfortable.

I know they broker from a mill breeder and I hate that they do. Like I said tho, what REPUTABLE breeder would sell their gliders to someone who sells at malls? None. You see, thats the whole problem. Businesses like this are going to exist. You cant stop that. They are still going to find customers that will buy their gliders and support them no matter how much you try to stear people away. So why not try to work with them to maybe change some of their practices?

I agree with you 100% about pellet diets being bad. When I first got my gliders..many years ago, I had changed their diets too quickly a few times. It led to diarhea and dehydration. I learned after that to transition diet. Maybe not all gliders have that problem but I know I personally have experienced it. Do I think its an excuse not to add GC and SG.com links to their brochure? No. I think they should at least do that.

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#961262 - 06/19/10 07:17 PM Re: Sugar Gliders = Sugar Bears? [Re: ]
Kim
Unregistered


I got a reply back from Matt about the neutering. He says they are sent to him already neutered(exactly what you said) and he doesnt know the process they use.

Im sure its not good but I dont have facts to work with. When I have facts I can make a non biased judgement about it. Ive matured quite a bit since the last time Ive been here. I try now to not judge things without facts. I could very easily sit here and say many harsh things based on my bias of disliking their ways but that isnt going to help anything or anyone. Sometimes ya just gotta look at the bigger picture and try to figure out what to do to help as many as you can without making things worse.

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#963781 - 06/24/10 02:31 PM Re: Sugar Gliders = Sugar Bears? [Re: ]
DCMuffin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/21/10
Posts: 28202
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro Area
It wasn't long ago that we had almost this exact thread. I didn't look for it so I can't reference it at this moment. I bet that someone else is already copying and pasting as I write this and I hope they do so it doesn't have to be rehashed again. I fear it could get ugly..lol
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#963826 - 06/24/10 04:05 PM Re: Sugar Gliders = Sugar Bears? [Re: DCMuffin]
Kim
Unregistered


There's no point in re-hashing it. We all agree the morals and ethics of this company suck. mill breeders suck and no one likes that gliders(along with many other species of animal) are mill bred and sold for profit. We all agree right? Ok, so do we all realize this company isnt going to simply vanish? Once you(well, we) understand that concept you have to open your mind up to different ways of helping the sugar gliders in this situation. Ive owned sugar gliders longer than most people here and Ive seen this again and again. Years ago I would just get angry and nasty and trash talk the company/person. That didnt help any sugar gliders at all. It takes different tactics and you dont always get your own way. In fact, the very first sugar glider I got in.. what was it, 1997? He was from a mill type situation. I wouldnt fully call it a mill, but they were a lot of wild caught gliders in small cages in a breeding project. Conditions werent so pretty or clean. I didnt know that then. He was bought for me from a pet store. Only later did I find out where he came from. Turns out, the psychologist my family had been using...was breeding them!!! I ended up going to her house to see it for myself. All wild caught, none were able to be handled without tearing your hand off. They just pulled the babies when they saw they were on their own and able to eat/drink by themselves. He was very young, but close to 7/8 weeks. My second glider was almost the same situation. She too was bought for me from a pet store not too long after. Also not socialized, young, and most likely from wild caught stock. I checked to make sure it was a different breeder tho. So see, I have experience myself with mill type situations and breeders not breeding in the cleanest or best environment.

Think outside of the box on this one. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

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#963906 - 06/24/10 08:07 PM Re: Sugar Gliders = Sugar Bears? [Re: ]
SariYappa Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 05/11/08
Posts: 5997
Loc: Upstate, SC
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