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#97180 - 04/24/06 03:52 PM Coliforms: Moderate or heavy?
Anonymous
Unregistered


We got the C&S results back on Petrie & Scrat today...and all looks just fine with them according to the results.

The only thing the C&S revealed was a growth of coliforms in both which was listed as the normal enteric flora.

My question though, is there a difference (or problem) that results from an overgrowth of califorms?

Scrat was listed as a "moderate growth" and Petrie as a "heavy growth".

Also, FYI this all realtes back to this thread where another one of my gliders was diagnosed and treated for Giardia.

These two have been treated for Giardia (2 treatments of Panacur, 2 of metrodinazole for Petrie, and 1 treatment of metro. for Scrat). These two went back to the vet because even after the treatments their stools were loose, quite smelly, and had a tan/light color to them.

I'll load the results sheets as soon as I can figure out my scanner <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

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#97181 - 04/24/06 04:05 PM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ok, Scrat's first.


Attachments
563051-Scrattestresults.jpg (47 downloads)


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#97182 - 04/24/06 04:06 PM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


And Petrie's


Attachments
563052-Petrietestresults.jpg (27 downloads)


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#97183 - 04/24/06 04:08 PM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I also want to add that the vet now wants me to look at whether the boys could have a food allergy/sensitivty to something they are eating so we'll see where things go from here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

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#97184 - 04/24/06 08:07 PM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 08/28/04
Posts: 14788
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
[:"green"]This is very interesting. Unfortunately, I know nothing about it... but I'm sure one of the high-tech science guys will be along soon to give you their take on it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />.
_________________________
Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders

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#97185 - 04/24/06 08:37 PM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
the gliders angel Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 3058
Loc: u.s.a.
judith hausmann will know the most on this problem i would e mail her

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#97186 - 04/24/06 11:16 PM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


The intestines are heavily populated with coliforms. A straight stool culture should yield heavy growth of coliforms. The reason why the other culture was only moderate growth most likely relates to plating technique.

Food allergies are difficult to prove. Elimination diets would be hard in a glider. So would RAST testing and skin testing. If certain foods were noted to give problems, it may be reasonable to go with it and avoid them. A later retest if stools get back to normal by challenging them with lots of that food might give some reassurance that you are on the right track.

Excess sugar can loosen stools. You might try skipping sugared juices, glideraid, and similar products if you are using them.

Tests for Giardia are not 100% accurate to exclude it. If present, they are solid. But to prove it is not present may take several re-tests. This is especially true for smears.

Good luck. The cultures you have look OK.


Edited by schlep (04/26/06 12:42 AM)

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#97187 - 04/25/06 10:44 AM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thank you Schlep. I was hoping you would see this. When I search the forums the only posts that came up with 'coliforms' in them were yours.

I have my doubts on the food allergy. These two boys have been on the same diet for a year and a half now and I'd be surprised if a food allergy were to suddenly start affecting the both of them at the same time...but we'll see.

Any other tests to be done my vet wants to refer me out...so now I need to decide where to go from here. Their activity levels are still the same but their feces range from sometimes normal color/consistency/etc. and then to smelly/runny/light colored <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

Back to the drawing board but thanks for reassuring me that the results looked normal. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#97188 - 04/25/06 10:59 AM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 3224
Loc: North Fort Worth - TX
I'm curious as to what you do next as well. My Sally is going through the same thing right now. Everything is normal with her- except she has the same stool issues that started out as diahrrea.

My vet has said she has vibrio <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />- she's been on a batril/water mix meds. Her 1st checkup showed less bacteria but still enough for the dr to be concerned. She is due later back this week for another recheck. Her stools have improved tremendous but are now at the same symptoms of yours. I'm wondering if an oral baytril would work better?

I have noticed certain foods do make her stool worse, so I avoid those. Just where do we go next & what's up with these babies <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />


Edited by mobmilli (04/25/06 11:13 AM)
_________________________
ancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique

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#97189 - 04/25/06 03:59 PM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 3224
Loc: North Fort Worth - TX
</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
judith hausmann will know the most on this problem i would e mail her

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

how would I get ahold of her?
_________________________
ancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique

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#97190 - 04/25/06 04:27 PM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
Carrie T Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 06/10/01
Posts: 4049
Loc: Doniphan Mo
You can contact her mylittlegremlin However she is not a vet just a breeder with several years of experience. Good luck <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#97191 - 04/26/06 12:37 AM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


By the way, for those not familiar with the term "coliforms", it is a group of similar and closely related bacteria that are like E. coli (Escherichia coli). The intestines of warm-blooded animals are heavily populated with them. They include the 4 genus groups Escherichia, Enterobacter, Klebsiella, and Citrobacter.

Since they are normal flora in the gut, it is hard to get excited about them showing up on culture of stool. There is no reasonable way to quantitate how many are present or if too many are present in stool. There are rare, nasty strains of coliforms that are invasive to the bowel wall and cause bloody diarrhea, kidney failure, and other problems.

Two other times one hears of coliforms in bad contexts are when they pollute well water, or when they are in high count in swimming pools.

When one speaks of overgrowth, that term makes sense in the context of a pathogen or non-normal flora germ growing in high count when it should not be present or so plentiful. Often it is because the coliform count has been lowered by antibiotics allowing other hardier germs that are resistant to that particular medication to grow.

Coliforms in glider urine specimens are hard to interpret. The fact that coliforms grow in the culture is not necessarily abnormal. I might suggest that we ask the veterinarian for two pieces of data. One is whether anything else grew on the culture. If so, it is likely a contaminant and not a UTI. The other data number is the number of colony forming units (CFU's).

CFU's are how many individual bugs are in the specimen at the original plating. Each bacterium grows where it lands on the agar plate and creates a CFU. In people, a CFU number of 100,000 or more on a mid-stream, clean catch specimen is significant. That means ten thousand coliforms in a clean catch specimen is not enough to decide a UTI is present. A catheter-collected specimen of 1000 CFUs is significant. A needle inserted through the abdominal wall into the bladder that yielded 10 CFUs would be significant.

Since a glider urine specimen is even less "cleanly" collected than a midstream clean catch, it is bound to have a high CFU count. The urine is passing through the cloaca, which it shares with stool passage. 100,000 is the significance number from humans, and we have a separate isolated tube for urine to pass and no cloaca like a glider which allows stool germs to get in the urine on the way out. The counts would reasonably be much higher in a glider. Anything lower than at least 100,000 would be suspect for a contaminant and not a UTI. This is no trivial distinction, and interpretation of urine culture results is not as easy as one might wish.

So a mixed result with several germs growing, or a low count culture are seen with contamination and not proof of a UTI. Food for thought.

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#97192 - 04/26/06 12:43 AM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
SweetestShampoo Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 571
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
That was a very interesting read, Schlep! I never knew that about gliders OR humans for that matter!!!

Now, I am wondering. I'm in the middle of writing a paper for one of my college-level Art History classes. Since your writing is SO BEAUTIFUL, would you mind writing it for me?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/clown.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Cat
~~~~~~~
:grey: Soba (5 y.o.)

R.I.P. :rbridge: Suggies Ringo (Oct 2005-Nov 22, 2016) and Miso (Summer 2006-January 29, 2012), & Dwarf Hamsters Ushi, Kinoko, and Tofu.

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#97193 - 04/26/06 01:03 AM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Not a chance! But I'd love to read it.

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#97194 - 04/26/06 03:39 AM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
SweetestShampoo Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 571
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" /> schlep, it's not really all that great... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> too much stuff at once... now to write another and then study for two exams.... *dies*

sorry I'm messing up your thread, kristin! You can beat me over the head when I come over this week if you like! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Cat
~~~~~~~
:grey: Soba (5 y.o.)

R.I.P. :rbridge: Suggies Ringo (Oct 2005-Nov 22, 2016) and Miso (Summer 2006-January 29, 2012), & Dwarf Hamsters Ushi, Kinoko, and Tofu.

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#97195 - 04/26/06 06:14 AM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
mattysmom Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 01/31/06
Posts: 1234
Loc: Tarpon Springs, FL
My pathologist/hubby says heavy vs. moderate is a distinction without a difference - created by humans. The finding of the wrong type of bacteria or the loss of the normal bacteria due to giving antibiotics is what we should be concerned about. I hope I translated that right.
_________________________
Moira & Matty & my zoo

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#97196 - 04/26/06 07:38 AM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


That was my main concern...whether the difference of Petrie and Scrat's reports were anything to pay notice to. I tried doing some research on-line...but most of the websites I found were about animals contaminating our water systems with their feces (coliforms).

But now that that concern os cleared up, I have to figure out where to go from here. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/offtopic.gif" alt="" />

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />
sorry I'm messing up your thread, kristin! You can beat me over the head when I come over this week if you like! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

LOL Cat! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" /> I promise...no head thumping when you come over so long as you actually finish your papers and stop procrastinating on here! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" />

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#97197 - 04/26/06 02:52 PM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Kristin...this might help. Riker has been on metro twice to help with his facial infections. Both times his stools have been light tan, and loose throughout treatment. So that may just be the meds themselves, and not an indication of giardia...since Riker has never had giardia. I just didn't want you to worry over a medication side effect...if the meds are all it is, the stools should be back to normal within a few days after the meds are stopped. You can give a few flakes of regular oatmeal daily to help firm up the stools. Hope this helps.
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#97198 - 04/26/06 06:15 PM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, he's been off meds since the 14th of this month...so I would think the stools would have cleared up since then. I was also thinking that maybe the stress of being force-fed meds was possibly affecting him...but our schedule has gone back to normal and he's still having runny and light colored-stools. Scrat has not had any Metrodinazole for almost a month now and the Panacur was last given over two weeks ago.

I just don't know where to go from here. They both *seem* relatively normal....but just this morning I fed morning treats and Petrie had the light colored diahhrea. And then he'll have normal feces. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shakehead.gif" alt="" /> My vet has basically said that it's up to me where we go from here and any other tests he is going to refer me out to have done...but I don't know what to do either <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

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#97199 - 04/27/06 10:25 AM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Well, then it certainly isn't the metro by now. So much for that bright idea of mine. What have they tested for so far, and what tests did your vet say he would "send you out" for-if he was at all specific...might give a clue what to try. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#97200 - 04/27/06 03:57 PM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


LOL Jen, no worries, any ideas at this point are better than what I'm doing...

So far for tests...only fecals...

On Petrie (the worst of the two)
Direct fecal 3/28 (Neg.)
Snap Giardia 3/28 (Neg.)
Panacur prescribed 3/28 for three days
Metrodinazole prescribed 3/28 for five days
Metrodinazole prescribed 4/10 for five days
C&S on feces 4/17
Fecal float 4/17
Fecal smear 4/17

Scrat:
direct fecal 3/28 (NEG.)
Panacur prescribed 3/28 for three days
Metrodinzole prescribed 3/28 for five days
C&S on feces 4/17

As for further tests, the vet wants me to look into food allergies/sensitivities. From there, I am kind of on my own. He said for an x-rays, blood work, etc. he wants to refer me out but had no specifics for me on what to be looking for. I think at this point I've reached his limit on glider knowledge and he's at a loss of what could be causing the loose stools..especially since it is not constant (the symptoms come and go but always much worse in Petrie than Scrat).

Their behavior is relatively normal.

Still drinking more than normal -- but not excessivley or urgently.

Runny/ight colored stool that come and go. petrie's is the worst. He gets it all over the pouch and his tail and it smells awful. Scrat's is usually a little better, but his comes and goes as well. I've tried to seeing if occurs at different times (when they first wake-up, after eating something specific, under stress, etc.) but so far come up empty.

Not eating as much (but they are picky eaters <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evil.gif" alt="" /> )

I have not changed anything about their diet. BML (and ingredients in it) all the same, same brand of veggies, same fruits I normally feed, same water, same Yogurt brand/flavors, same mealies (amount/supplier), etc.

I just don't see how I could go to bed one night and wake-up the next morning with two gliders will runny stools that haven't cleraed up since 3/28. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

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#97201 - 04/27/06 05:42 PM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
K...if they were mine, I would first have blood drawn to eliminate that possibility...also have a urinalisis done...since the symptoms are still present...remember that they use cloaca for everything. it could be a hard to pinpoint bacteria in there. Also, what are you feeding, and what is the playtime...just trying to pin point the cause. Also...what kind of out of cage time do they get. Sorry for all the questions...just trying to pinpoint a cause.


Edited by Xfilefan (04/27/06 11:59 PM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#97202 - 04/27/06 08:27 PM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Jen, thank you for helping <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

ok, diet:

They get BML (everything as called for in the diet but mixed in a different order), frozen mixed veggies (green beans, carrots, corn, peas), and one kind of fruit (canteloupe, honeydew, mango, and papaya are most common. Bought fresh, washed, cut, washed, frozen. Occasionaly also grapes, blueberry, peach, apple, or watermelon) each night. Once or twice a week they get yogurt (Yoplait Mixed Berry, Peach, or Strawberry-Banana). About once a week to once every two weeks they get Glideraide mixed with water. On the nights I offer Glideraide or Yogurt I don't give any fruit that night. Every morning they get 4-5 mealies each and once a week they get 3 waxworms in place of the mealies. Fresh bottled water changed out each morning. Every two weeks after nail trimming they get 1 (chocolate-chip sized) strawberry yogies each.

Playtime: They have a glider room which they get to come out and play in (and the other cage of gliders is rolled out of the room at that time). They usually come out somewhere between 5-7 nights a week anywhere from an hour to three hours each night depending on my schedule and how much they feel like playing that night.

Ok, I think I covered that...let me know if you can think of anything else.

Also, what would the vet possibly be looking for in the bloodwork or UA? I am fairly certain my vet will refer me out for the bloodwork.

Thanks again for all your help Jen...I'm feeling a little lost on where to go from here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />

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#97203 - 04/28/06 12:16 AM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Kristin...my sincerest apologies..apparently I couldn't type earlier, lol. I'm surprised you could read it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohwell.gif" alt="" />

Since we're down to these I'll explain why I'd go with urinalysis and blood next.

Urinalysis can help to diagnose conditions like UTI, possible toxins, excretions of white blood cells indicating infection, and indicators for things like diabetes (ketones and high sugar in the urine), liver/kidney disorder, protein and sugar counts, etc.

Blood can further pinpoint things that can be related to liver/kidney function and diabetes (glucose levels in the blood), anemia (lack of iron), or too much iron, possible exposure to heavy metals, indications of really bad things like cancer, thyroid problems, enzyme and hormone levels, red blood cell count, etc.

You can have the fecals redone, just in case giardia, shigella, etc. did not show up on the first run (as it frequently doesn't). I'm just trying to eliminate the possibilities as we go here...I don't think an Xray would be indicated at this point.

In the meantime, I'd offer a few flakes of regular oatmeal when he's loose, to help firm up the stools, and you can offer babyfood fruits/veggies that are much higher in water..so will help keep him hydrated. Don't ask me why I asked how much out of cage time...I think I meant WHERE...to see if he possibly could have ingested something toxic or just plain not good for him. I know schlep can expand on all the things that can be seen in blood and urine tests...these are the ones I'm most familiar with. Your diet is good...what kind of yogurt do you feed (just to rule out artificial sweetener)...and for now I'd give it daily in addition to his other foods, and not drop anything else out just because of yogurt (on yogurt nights, don't drop fruits, just add the yogurt to everything else anyway).

And avoid STRAWBERRY anything...that is a common food allergen, according to my vet. No clue why, just what he told me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />


Edited by Xfilefan (04/28/06 12:17 AM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#97204 - 04/28/06 01:11 AM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/22/03
Posts: 8899
Loc: Jacksonville, FL
Here's some sites that tell a large number of the causes of diarrhea (in people and animals)..thought they might help:

National Digestive Diseases Information Clearinghouse

This one is more in depth, including causes of "chronic" diarrhea: GI Tract Info

Diarrhea in Small Animals

Pet Health Topics from the College of Veterinary Medicine

I hope this helps some.


Edited by Xfilefan (04/28/06 01:15 AM)
_________________________
Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley

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#97205 - 04/28/06 07:01 AM Re: Coliforms: Moderate or heavy? [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I know I can get the UA done here, but I'll have to do some searching for a vet that will be willing/able to do the bloodwork for me.

Do you think it is worth it to have both gliders done? or better to just work with Petrie since he seems the worse of the two?

I'll cut out the strawberry stuff (which is fine since there isn't much there) and see if that helps any. And the yogurt doesn't have any artificial sweetners so I'll add a little to their plate each night.

Thanks again for all your help Jen and I'll let you know as soon as I do what the vet says.

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