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#975538 - 07/15/10 08:40 AM Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1414
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Okay, we all know that chocolate can kill dogs. It does not harm cats nearly as much. As far as rodents, it causes infertility, so diarrhea and nothing more. (had to learn that when my rat stole a hershey kiss and ate half of it)

So... why do we believe that chocolate is lethal to gliders? Don't get me wrong, my gliders will never get chocolate from me, but I want to know if there is any actual evidence that chocolate has been proven harmful to gliders.

I have been "auditing" the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets website and seperating fact from fiction (its tedious!) and they claim that the only things in your home that can harm your gliders are toilets (understood) and chocolate...

Is there truth to this? is it a myth from the history that dogs have with chocolate?
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#975545 - 07/15/10 08:44 AM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: wildlifeangel]
Gizmogirl Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 13454
Loc: South Africa
I've heard it's got something to do with the toxicity of cocoa and the caffeine. This will be interesting to know.
_________________________
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#975552 - 07/15/10 09:04 AM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: Gizmogirl]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
I am actually more upset that they say the "ONLY" thing that can harm, which may make some people very relaxed about being on the lookout for harmful things.

there is ALOT in an average home that can pose a risk
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#975561 - 07/15/10 09:18 AM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: JillMarie]
Sashimi
Unregistered


I almost came into this thread upset, thinking one of your gliders got into some chocolate.

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#975565 - 07/15/10 09:22 AM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: ]
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1414
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Nope, my chocolate is safe from my gliders!

I just want to know the facts behind this common knowledge.

And yes, (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets says that on their page. I am currently reviewing ALL of their public pages, making notes and highlighting what is false and correct of the information they give. I believe this may be helpful to newbies who have (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets gliders or thought they were educated from reading their info. It could also help to prepare those who intend to challenge Virgil, as the best way to argue is to know your enemy.


Edited by wildlifeangel (07/15/10 09:27 AM)
Edit Reason: added comment about PPP
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#975572 - 07/15/10 09:29 AM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: wildlifeangel]
Bozeman Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 2346
Loc: South Africa
I am not sure if it is fact or fiction if chocolate is lethal for gliders... but would sure like to find out the FACTS!
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#975586 - 07/15/10 09:46 AM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: Bozeman]
Gliderzorch
Unregistered


As far as dogs are concerned, I think it depends on the type of chocolate and the dog. My aunt's beagle has eaten an entire box of chocolates (including the wrappers and the wrapping paper it was in), and other than a very sick stomach, she came through it okay. The dog has also eaten a chocolate cake (among other cakes it's managed to get at). Then again, this dog also once ate a wall. Yes, a wall.

I would imagine the danger involved hinges partly on the type and amount of chocolate. Dark chocolate contains much more cocoa, whereas you can eat a standard hershey bar or cadbury egg, and you're mostly getting sugar and butter. A dark chocolate truffle rolled in cocoa powder - now we're getting very dangerous.

I would suspect that if a glider eats chocolate in a very small amount by accident (i.e. it found a lost chocolate chip and took a few nibbles, then you took the chip away), there would be potential to come through the experience if given medical care. It would probably be very sick, though. I'm certainly not suggesting to give a glider chocolate, of course.

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#975590 - 07/15/10 09:54 AM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: ]
lovely1inred
Unregistered


Theobromine is the toxic ingredient in chocolate. Gliderzorch is correct, it depends on the type of chocolate. Pure baker's chocolate is the worst, while milk chocolate it takes a larger amount to get to a toxic level.

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_chocolate_toxicity.html

Considering that 2 oz. of milk chocolate can induce toxicity in a a 5lb dog, and considering a glider is only abour 4 oz, it takes much much less of it to become toxic to our gliders. Not all reactions include death, it could just be vomitting and diarhea, or it could include pancreatitis which is much more serious.

There are a multitude of items that are dangerous in a home, for any pet, and to suggest otherwise is just wrong for Perfect Pocket Pets to do. Things that spring to mind are alcohol, electrical sockets, tobacco products, small appliances, soaps and shampoos, curling irons/hair straighteners, exposed wires, hot surfaces, any exposed access to a crawl space or interior of a wall, etc. Also catnip, which does nothing bad to cats but is certainly NOT for gliders to get into!

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#975594 - 07/15/10 09:57 AM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: ]
lovely1inred
Unregistered


Another interesting link, that further breaks down toxicity levels into mild and sever reactions http://www.vspn.org/library/misc/vspn_m01325.htm

Also of note is the LD50 level, at which 50% of animals will die.

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#975595 - 07/15/10 09:57 AM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: ]
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1414
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
oh, but "gliders are not chewers"

I'm getting into their stuff, and about 2/3 is just plain WRONG... or intentionally misleading.

What is the issue with catnip? I sometimes throw it on my cat tower, how bad is it for gliders?


Edited by wildlifeangel (07/15/10 09:59 AM)
Edit Reason: catnip
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#975606 - 07/15/10 10:10 AM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: wildlifeangel]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
My dog ate all the halloween candy one year. I called my vet in a panic, and she said she was more concerned about the tin foil wrapping. My dog got bad diarrhea but nothing more. Had it been dark chocolate rather than milk chocolate - my Valkyrie would be dead!

It is also true that humans can process Thebromine more effectively than dogs. We have digestive proteins that dogs do not have, so - pound for pound - the same percentage of chocolate would not be toxic to us, but it would to dogs.

It is not known whether or not gliders have the digestive proteins necessary to pass Thebromine quickly from their bodies. However, because they are hind-gut fermenters, my guess would be that chocolate would actually stay in their systems even LONGER and be even more toxic than it is to dogs.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#975640 - 07/15/10 10:59 AM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: wildlifeangel]
lovely1inred
Unregistered


The problem with catnip is gliders' tendencies to putting everything in their mouths. Even cats can develop vomitting and diarhea if they ingest too much. With an animal as large as a cat it tends to pass and just be a nuisance. With a glider that can dehydrate so much faster, it's a bigger issue.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19712151

If you read the first paragraph, there's a tested oral LD(50) in male and female rats, and it can produce minor skin irritations. With a glider, that will tend to groom something until the irritant goes away, that is also bad.
Nepetalactone is what causes the "high" for cats, and gliders certainly don't need an increased heart rate or high.

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#975672 - 07/15/10 11:54 AM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: ]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Lets keep this on the topic of chocolate, please. If you want to discuss catnip, start a new thread. thumb
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Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#975736 - 07/15/10 02:53 PM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: sugarlope]
Jackie_Chans_Mom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 05/01/07
Posts: 2511
Loc: Texas
My experience is that a little bit of chocolate is not lethal for gliders.

My Cheddar has gotten into some chocolate candies TWICE. Those that know his story know he is not the healthiest of gliders, so it is not a case of a very healthy glider fighting it off. Cheddar never even had any diarrhea.

I certainly would not give my gliders chocolate just because, but I would not panic if they get a bite or two either.

The second time with Cheddar, I did pause to snap a photo before taking it away from him (which made him VERY angry).
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#975984 - 07/15/10 10:57 PM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: Jackie_Chans_Mom]
Gliderzorch
Unregistered


If someone took my chocolate, I'd be angry too! JK, that's adorable (albeit scary!)

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#976222 - 07/16/10 12:01 PM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: ]
HappyToBeHere Offline
Glider Lover

Registered: 03/03/10
Posts: 542
Loc: st.louis, missouri
yeah my glider got chocolate once too. Not my doing. i bring my gliders on holidays with me to family in the bonding pouch. The bonding pouch gets pushed round from my mom to dad to boyfriend. All which my gliders know and do not mind them. But my lovely grandma just started feeding them chocolate one time... he reasoning "they have sugar in their name so i thought it was ok!"

nothing happened to my gliders. So yeah i keep a good eye on them now... some family members are just not animal smart....
_________________________
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#976243 - 07/16/10 12:51 PM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: HappyToBeHere]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Chocolate has two ways it is toxic to animals.

One is almost instant. Too much and it can make them very sick within hours or even cause death.

The other way is a build up over time causing cancer.
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#976496 - 07/16/10 10:43 PM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: Dancing]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
Originally Posted By: Dancing
The other way is a build up over time causing cancer.


Interesting, I have never heard that before. Do you have any links about that?


Edited by sugarlope (07/16/10 10:44 PM)
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#976522 - 07/16/10 11:41 PM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: sugarlope]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
I will see if I can find the weblinks again.
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#976806 - 07/17/10 02:59 PM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: Dancing]
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 03/28/02
Posts: 19735
Loc: in my happy place
thanks, Teresa. smile
_________________________
~Gretchen
Maia & Squish
If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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#987129 - 08/05/10 02:45 PM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: Dancing]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
Thanks for such a kind comment in my other post Teresa!
Following could be article you are searching for?

Why Caffeine is toxic to Birds
http://www.multiscope.com/hotspot/caffeine.htm


Toxicoses in Birds
http://www.oldworldaviaries.com/text/miscellaneous/toxicoses.html

"Generally, the sweeter the chocolate (more sugar), the less theobromine present (milk chocolate contains about 1-2 mg of theobromine per gram, dark unsweetened chocolate may contain as much as 15-16 mg per gram). Despite this, no chocolate should be given to birds. Signs of chocolate toxicity include: hyperactivity, vomiting, diarrhea, heart arrhythmias, seizures, dark colored droppings and death."




The following is taken from one of my treasured copies of David Fleay's 1947 publication
"Gliders Of The Gum Trees"

" It is not difficult to understand why bush people have called the dainty creature Sugar Squirrel, a name now accepted, and to be encouraged, though slightly modified to Sugar Glider. Kept so often by bush families as a pet, the little Glider demonstrates a phenomenal sweet tooth, tackling jam, sugar, honey, lemon peel, chocolates, boiled sweets or treacle with consistent greediness."
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#1107603 - 05/01/11 09:51 PM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: wildlifeangel]
Daveya77
Unregistered


I have been doing research on this topic all day and what I've got from it is that a little bit of choclate won't kill them. But, alot of choclate will kill them because of a certain ingredient in the choclate. The same goes for vanilla because vanilla is used to make choclate. But, I wouldnt trust these facts because there is alot of information on the Internet that is not true.

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#1107639 - 05/01/11 11:20 PM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: wildlifeangel]
SerenityKris Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 09/29/09
Posts: 124
Loc: Lake Worth, Florida
I'm allergic to chocolate (it's the cocoa in chocolate that I'm allergic to, actually), and I just want to add that not all chocolate is the same.

I can eat an entire bag Hershey's kisses and be perfectly fine. Yet, a few pieces of say... Godiva, and I'm in deep trouble pretty quickly.

I'd imagine it's the same for gliders and dogs. Lower quality chocolate really has very little cocoa in it.

Just because your glider got into chocolate once and it turned out ok doesn't mean that chocolate isn't dangerous. It could be that the chocolate they ate didn't contain much cocoa. The same amount of a higher quality chocolate could have completely different results.

Just food for thought. All in all, it's not a risk I'd be willing to take.
_________________________
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Mom to 4 gliders: :wfb: Bugsy :grey: Bijou :grey: Mr. B :grey: Brooklyn
3 dogs: :dog: Trixie the pomeranian, Daisy the cocker spaniel dachsund mix, and Louie the English Bulldog mix

http://bijousgrotto.weebly.com/

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#1113025 - 05/13/11 02:49 AM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: wildlifeangel]
suggiesistersmom
Unregistered


When i worked at a vet i had a dog named max, he was a medium sized boy. well i love hershy kisses and i wanted to treat myself one day so i bought a big bag of them. i always took my dog with me wherever i went, i stopped after the grociery store to get gas and left the hershy kisses in the bag on the seat, i came out not even 3 mins later and my maximoo dog had eaten the entire bag of chocolates! in a complete panic i headed straight for the vet i worked at. what my vet said was that a dog cannot digest chocolate
(keep in mind this it means REAL chocolate) as much as i love hershy kisses i will admit they are not all pure chocolate lol. anyways since they cant digest chocolate if they eat too much it dehydrates them, and gives the diarreah, so a dog can technically get into a stash of chocolate and be perfectly fine ( except for the runs ) as long as the dog gets plenty and plenty of water to stay hydrated

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#1113341 - 05/13/11 07:32 PM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: wildlifeangel]
kjgoulet Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/12/11
Posts: 1516
Loc: North Dakota
My boyfriend's old dog, Jenny, ate an entire big bag of tootsie rolls wrappers and all lol! I know it's not real chocolate but he got a little worried at the time.

Mia's eaten a couple hershey kisses too and I yelled at my sister like there was no tomorrow for leaving them where Mia could get to them lol! Well, Mia is alive and well and didn't even get the runs.

I'm not willing to take any chances with the gliders so any and all chocolate is kept away in a cupboard until it is eaten. It's our snack cupboard smile
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Mommy to..
Daughter Abby
:grey: :wfb: :rtmo:
And my many fuzzy children <3
www.tenderlovingsuggies.webs.com

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#1113787 - 05/14/11 09:23 PM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: wildlifeangel]
Biscuit Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 02/12/11
Posts: 978
Loc: Dutchess County, NY
I'm sure this is not the same thing as "real chocolate," but I can't sit and eat chocolate ice cream without Rascal practically diving into it. So, he's had some chocolate ice cream with no problems at all. Again - not the same as a chunk of actual chocolate.
_________________________

~ Laurie ~
Mother to

:wfb: Topanga, :grey: Biscuit, Toby, :leu: Thor & :plat: Akiah [Kiah]


www.lauriessugglettes.weebly.com

gangel My Lost Loves, Rascal, March 30, 2012, Bugaboo, Sept 7, 2012 & Momma, Feb 27, 2013



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#1114478 - 05/16/11 05:10 AM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: wildlifeangel]
suggiesistersmom
Unregistered


Chocolate is very bitter. The darker and bitterer a Chocolate bar, the more Cacao it has (and the better it is).

For more than 3000 years Americans have been consuming Chocolate. Sugar has been part of the mixture for about 10% of that time. The Mayans and Aztecs of the Americas consumed Chocolate bitter and often added chilies. It was used by the common people as a spice, while the royalty drank it straight and bitter. In Latin America, Cacao is often used in it's original role as a bitter spice. Try a Molé burrito sometime. Yum! Cacao did not know sugar at all until the European love for sugar combined them.

The sweeter something is, the more sugar it has and the less Cacao it has. Chocolate is not sweet. Sugar is sweet. Candy is sugar. If it is sweet, it is not Chocolate, it is candy. Cadbury®, Hersheys®, Nestlé®, Milka® and Kinder® bars are not Chocolate, they are candy, as is all milk chocolate.

In milk-chocolate-candy, what you are tasting is NOT Chocolate. A Hersheys® Bar is about 11% Cacao! (And it is only that high because the United States Food & Drug Administration REQUIRES a minimum of 10% Cacao solids!) Cadbury®, Kinder® and Milka® are less then that! Snickers® is less than 2%. These bars all contain very tiny portions of Cacao and huge quantities of sugar and other additives. All milk chocolate contains more sugar than Cacao! This is not Chocolate; Sugar is the largest portion, the primary ingredient, and the selling point. (People call candy bars like Snickers® "chocolate" but they have a much higher percentage of both sugar and nuts than Cacao. They should be called "Nut Candy".)

Since the mid-1990s a number of the smaller chocolate manufacturers have introduced bars that are 60% - 90% Cacao. These are real Chocolate. They are the only Chocolate i buy. You will notice that some of the bars that list a high Cacao content which have weak or unpleasant flavor. Nestlé makes a 70% bar that is just awful. The addition of extra Cocoa Butter into the bar can weaken the flavor and there are many different levels and qualities of Chocolate. See the Varieties Page for a discussion of the primary cultivars.

Sugar, vegetable oils, artificial flavors, fillers and milk solids are all much cheaper than Cacao. The candy companies use any filler they can to cut down on the quantity of Chocolate they use, in fact, since flavorless Cocoa Butter is cheaper than Cacao Paste, they even raise the quantity of that, all to avoid Chocolate. Low Cacao solids means less Chocolate flavor, less money for the farmer and a higher profit margin for the manufacturer. Cocoa Butter has a very high resale value and is therefore often replaced by vegitible or milk fats. people think it is vanilla


Most People Don't Know What Chocolate Is!


"Today the taste that most people associate with Chocolate springs primarily from the vanilla and other spices mixed with the Chocolate. Cocoa Butter has yielded to flavored forms of vegetable shortening, and now people ingest real Chocolate in such minute quantities that most of the narcotic effect has been sacrificed to the sugar rush that substitutes for it. -- Jack Weatherford

Milk chocolate is, by definition, less than 30% Chocolate and few, if any milk chocolate bars ever exceed 20%. In milk-chocolate-candy, what you taste is not Chocolate. Milk-chocolate-candy is primarily sugar and spices with almost no Chocolate at all:

Three 30 gram Hersheys® bars contain about 12 Cacao beans total,
one 100g 85% Cacao, plain Chocolate bar contains about 99 Cacao beans!
There is of course, nothing wrong with candy, or with liking candy, but don't call it Chocolate. Don't pretend you are ingesting Chocolate, and don't call yourself a Chocoholic if you eat only milk-chocolate-candy.


White Chocolate


There are two kinds of White Chocolate, both are not Chocolate.

"Real" White Chocolate is a candy bark developed for people who were allergic to Cacao. It contains not a speck of Cacao.
Much of today's fine grade White Chocolate is primarily Cocoa Butter, sugar, milk and vanilla, without any Cacao flavoring. Since there is little noticeable taste of Cacao in the common milk-chocolate-candy bar, it is easy to make a bar taste like that without Cacao flavoring.
White Chocolate is everything that is in candy bars that is not Chocolate.

http://www.xocoatl.org/flavor.htm

as long as they are not eating REAl chocolate i think they are ok. of course i wouldnt give them more than just a taste from time to time but i'm still new to being a glider mom so......

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#1114483 - 05/16/11 05:18 AM Re: Chocolate is Lethal For Gliders [Re: wildlifeangel]
suggiesistersmom
Unregistered


More Chocolate info i found hope this helps everyone!

Unfortunately for dogs chocolate tastes really, really good, but chocolate is not really poisonous, not like cyanide. That doesn’t change the fact that it can kill your dog. It is theobromine that is harmful to dogs, if you can find chocolate without it you’ll have the happiest dog in town. Theobromine is a stimulant found in the coca plant. People often get theobromine confused with caffeine, while they have similar effects, eating a piece of chocolate will not give a human the rush a cup of coffee does. Chocolate will still give a sugar rush, but don’t eat it if you’re up late studying for an exam.

Dogs and horses are greatly affected by theobromine. Chocolate is a banned substance in horse racing because of the boost it will give to the horse. Of course a horse can still eat too much of it, like a dog, but they’re significantly bigger animals and it would take much more chocolate.

Your dogs system will try to purge itself of the theobromine if it gets enough of it. One tiny piece won’t cause any significant damage, unless your dog eats a shoe while ‘high’ on chocolate. You’ll notice if they’ve had too much. Aside from the dog crying it will be vomiting and have diarrhea. If you notice these symptoms you should have your animal checked out immediately. Your dog will probably not die from these symptoms, they are just warning signs. The concern comes from the dog’s heart, especially if it is an older dog. The dogs heart my beat too fast and just give out, that’s the real danger. An increased heart rate will probably come after the vomiting and diarrhea, when more theobromine has had a chance to be absorbed into the blood steam. Other signs to watch for are increased urination (another method the body will use to purge itself of something), muscle twitching, and excessive panting. Chocolate could kill your dog, cause seizures or put it in a coma, so be careful.

The amount of chocolate that will harm your dog will vary depending on the size, age, health of your dog, and the type of chocolate. Baker’s chocolate has much more theobromine than regular milk chocolate. There’s not much else to why it will kill your dog, there are lots of things that will kill dogs, or humans, or any other animal. Too much caffeine can be fatal to humans, you’ll never drink enough to kill you at one time so don’t fret.

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Max Online: 478 @ 07/15/07 01:24 AM
Last 10 New Topics
Joey or Full grown
by kinn2388
Yesterday at 09:43 AM
How could I help this glider?
by MomoShiva
08/15/17 05:21 PM
One day too late
by CrypticDelirium
08/15/17 03:06 PM
a strange Diabetic question
by mechnut450
08/15/17 11:37 AM
Glider in distress
by maycstay
08/15/17 12:11 AM
Dear Crabby
by TwoDog
08/14/17 06:10 AM
Let's see your cages!
by Nanina_Bryan
08/13/17 10:11 PM
Black Beauty Male
by Srlb
08/13/17 12:02 PM
End of my rope...
by TwoDog
08/12/17 04:30 AM
Reputable Rescues?
by Zoomom31
08/12/17 04:11 AM
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