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#979896 - 07/23/10 09:54 AM MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
Ok a lot of these posts get messy from personal feelings about the poster or REALLY technical people talking about genetics etc. We love to point fingers and say so and so is just out for money blah blah blah, one post I tried to get involved in a member told me flat out I was wrongwhy bother anymore. But now I'm going to talk about what I've seen, what I've done and how I feel.
First off, mosaic and mosaic does NOT make 4/4 joeys mosaics. Just ask Kris Nelson she just had two moxmo pairing BOTH produce standard joeys. It happens. I feel like if someone is trying to produce MORE mosaics they have better odds pairing them sepratly and get more joeys. Honestly if you do the numbers anyone wanting to make money off gliders would have twice as many joeys pairing them seprately. Ex. Male mosaic is paired with female mosaic they have say 12 joeys in their lifetime, odds say they will have 75% mosaic that is 9 mosaic joeys and 3 standard/wf etc... Say Male mosaic is pair with wf female they have 12 joeys in their life time odds say they will have 50% mosaic joeys so 6 mosaics 6 standards, then the mosaic female paired with a wf male they will have odds say 6 mosaics 6 standards. In hignsight anyone wanting MONEY is doubling their joeys by pairing these two mosaics sepratly adding their numbers of mosaics born in their homes, etc. And I do know that some mosaic mosaic pairings will produce 100% mosaic that is just the way the cookie crumbles.

Now as for hurting the lines by putting two together and merging the lines, as I've said in other posts we do the same thing by breeding WF and WF together, a color that only needs ONE to produce WF joeys yet we breed them together. My point being that the mosaics are bred out well enough it isn't like breeding leu and leu together.

I'm at work I might have more to add later.
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#979901 - 07/23/10 10:01 AM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: Laurens_Babies]
wildlifeangel Offline
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Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1414
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
I'm sorry I irritated you. I didn't say you were wrong, nor did I mean to imply it. I was voicing my opinion and it is a bit different than yours. I still respect you opinion! dunno hug2
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#979907 - 07/23/10 10:08 AM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: wildlifeangel]
Laurens_Babies Offline
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I wasn't talking about you, I'm talking about a much older post
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#979909 - 07/23/10 10:11 AM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: Laurens_Babies]
wildlifeangel Offline
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oh... okay! mlove
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#979977 - 07/23/10 12:22 PM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: wildlifeangel]
Laurens_Babies Offline
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Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
Sorry for the rant everyone, I just don't think people are thinking about what the say when they label breeders for having mo on mo. I have a mosaic and mosaic pair up and while I did not get the second because he was a mosaic I think it will be a cool pair up. I NEEDED male and a friend offered a boy who was a good age and lineage with my girl, it was just a side note he was also a mosaic. I truely believe that the mistakes that were made several years ago that caused the lines to be so badly bred and sterility to be caused is in the past. We are so much more educated and aware of what we are doing and the "breeding police" are sure to tell anyone of a bad pair up roflmao

Breed with intellegence that is the key, yes someone could do a poor pairing but guess what any color that can happen to not just mosaics.
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#980000 - 07/23/10 12:54 PM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: Laurens_Babies]
tjlong Offline
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Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Washington
I have to drop this in too. It is all odds when it comes to color. Like was mentioned, if you have a mo and something else paired then 50% SHOULD be mo. That doesn't mean that every other joey will be mo. It could be many many joeys down the road before a mo shows up. Same with a Leu/100% Leu het pairing. They are odds so if a pair have 100 joeys (heaven forbid!) then the odds on a 50/50 pairing are 1/2 will be the color you are looking for. Just saying...
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#980005 - 07/23/10 01:02 PM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: tjlong]
carolinasuggies Offline
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Registered: 05/05/10
Posts: 1192
Loc: NC
My babies could come out with purple fuzz and I would love them anyway! smile LOL! I truely think SOME NOT ALL people are so concerned with color and money they dont think about what's best for the glider's and the lines!


Edited by carolinasuggies (07/23/10 01:03 PM)
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#980011 - 07/23/10 01:11 PM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: carolinasuggies]
Dani4Hedgies Offline
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Registered: 04/24/09
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ohhhh purple gliders NOW that is a color to work toward smile
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#980021 - 07/23/10 01:28 PM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: Dani4Hedgies]
Guerita135 Offline
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Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 4645
Loc: Ohio
I wouldn't think that there's anything WRONG with pairing 2 mosaics, just so long as they are a good pairing.

Honestly though, it's pointless. As you said, they won't necessarily produce more mosaics.

I got lucky, my mosaic boy is paired with a gray(cremino het) and they've had 6 out of 6 mosaics so far! grin
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#980047 - 07/23/10 02:39 PM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: Guerita135]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Ok, I'm going to say this again.

Quote:
if you have a mo and something else paired then 50% SHOULD be mo.


This is not right. It doesn't mean 50% SHOULD be mo, it means each joey born has a 50% CHANCE of being a mo. The percentages are for each individual joey, not over all averages.
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#980064 - 07/23/10 03:33 PM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: Dancing]
GoGoGliders
Unregistered


I agree with you Teresa....I have Brando (leu) and Sevin (100% leu het) and they went 6 pairs of joeys before they gave me another leu.....the genes fall where the genes fall, all the percentages in the world are just the POSSIBILITY of producing a color

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#980103 - 07/23/10 04:19 PM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: ]
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Washington
Quote:
This is not right. It doesn't mean 50% SHOULD be mo, it means each joey born has a 50% CHANCE of being a mo. The percentages are for each individual joey, not over all averages.


Thank you for the correction! You said what I meant. My comment was very misleading. agree
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#980267 - 07/23/10 09:11 PM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: tjlong]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Tracy, I didn't mean to single you out. I see it posted this way all the time and it is unintentionally misleading.

Those that don't know "how it works" will believe if they have 4 joeys, atleast 2 will be mosaic and it just doesn't work that way at all. (unfortunately).
Because it is the individual chance for each glider, the pair could have 12 joeys and none of them be mosaic. Or they could all be mosaic. Or anywhere in between. But EACH individual has a chance to be.

It is like with neutering. There is a 50% chance the male will self mutilate. Simply put, either he (an individual) will or he won't. 50/50. But that doesn't mean that 50% of all males being neutered will self mutilate. (I think it is probably more like maybe 1-5% will and that can be reduced to 0% with owner diligence)

It all gets so confusing sometimes!
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Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

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#980301 - 07/23/10 10:10 PM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: Dancing]
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Washington
Not a problem Teresa!

How about this explanation;

Every joey has a little set of dice and gets to roll them. Whatever comes up is what that joey gets. It isn't the parents rolling to see how many joeys are mo and how many aren't or leu and leu het. Each joey gets his or her own roll. Is that clearer?

I like dice games. wink
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#980422 - 07/24/10 08:17 AM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: tjlong]
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 2833
Loc: roseville, mi
since i deal craps, i love your dice theory.

regards,
nancy in detroit
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#980425 - 07/24/10 08:25 AM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: hwh4ev]
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1414
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Very true... I think some of us forget that it is a selection for each joey... such as what gender the joeys will be.

I forget about the odds not being exact because my WF female has 4 standards and 4 WF's. But then I remember again when I think about the fact that she only had 2 girls of those 8!
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#980435 - 07/24/10 09:32 AM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: wildlifeangel]
NGS
Unregistered


So am I unstanding this right?

Its now ok to breed Mosaic to Mosaic?

Its now ok to breed Leu to Leu?

Just as long as you have a good lineage?

Is that what everyone is saying here and on the other post?

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#980444 - 07/24/10 10:12 AM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: ]
tjlong Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 1710
Loc: Washington
Quote:
since i deal craps, i love your dice theory.

wink
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(425) 789-7753
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#980462 - 07/24/10 10:59 AM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: ]
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
Originally Posted By: NGS
So am I unstanding this right?

Its now ok to breed Mosaic to Mosaic?

Its now ok to breed Leu to Leu?

Just as long as you have a good lineage?

Is that what everyone is saying here and on the other post?



I don't agree with breeding leu to leu but because the lines are getting bred out more some people are reconsidering. For as long as I've seen mosaic to mosaic threads (I've been here over 3 years) mosaic to mosaic is a split decision. Most have agreed that there is nothing genetically wrong with it as long as you use common sense but there has been a nasty stigma attached to it that breeders that do it are only in for money, thats what I'm trying to address in this thread.
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#980477 - 07/24/10 11:33 AM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: Laurens_Babies]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Personally, I think regardless of what color the gliders are, the choices of who to pair together should be based on the family trees of the two gliders.

Color shouldn't be the deciding factor.

If you have two mosaics that are unrelated...I see nothing wrong.
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I could have missed the pain
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#980490 - 07/24/10 11:54 AM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: Dancing]
oakley Offline
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Registered: 07/22/05
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Teresa, I couldn't agree with you more.
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#980521 - 07/24/10 01:09 PM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: oakley]
ssdreamsicles Offline
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Registered: 05/10/07
Posts: 1871
Loc: kentucky
I agree with Dancing. The gliders lines should be looked at. If you have to good lines of mo's that are non related and would make a great match then great. Now i see nothing wrong with this at all. My only concern is there are some people that do not pick apart the lines and put enough thought into pedagrees they just see a pretty glider and the money they could make. If that person gets a glider from a mo/mo pairing they may then say hey i want to put this baby with a mo to better my chances! Well what if this keeps happening? Then you screw up good lines. But thus being said this can happen with any color line. I have no prob with any color being put togeather as long as the lines are looked at.

I am very very OCD about my lines and i go as far as to talk to the person who is buying my joey about lines i do not think would be good therefor i do not want the joey bred to that line. For example: Hades and persephone both have one glider in there lines. One is like 3rd gen and one farther back. The pairing is ok but i do not feel that it would be a good match if anyone pairs there joeys back to a glider with that line. After i explain to them why i do not feel it would be a good match they have been very understanding and have no prob with it.

Anyways im getting off the path. All in all my thought is as long as the pairing is a good one color does not matter but i think at the same time we need to educate anyone buying a joey to breed on why pairing a joey from a mo/mo line to another mo/mo would not be such a good idea if we want to keep lines good same with any other line.


Edited by ssdreamsicles (07/24/10 01:10 PM)
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#980919 - 07/25/10 09:08 AM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: ssdreamsicles]
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 3224
Loc: North Fort Worth - TX
How much has the mo/mo pairing really been looked at? If there are issues with doubles in other species, why wouldn't there be issues in gliders.

Before we go and say, I think there's more to look at than the family tree. Should we really be opening the box of double mosaics if we don't need to.

Double posted on the other breeding mo/mo thread.

Are we risking the same results with "doubles" like in dog genetics. The genetics of these colorings in dogs works like that of mosaic, only one parent is needed of these colorings to produce an offspring of the same coloring.

Dapple/Dapple= Double Dapple- risk of blindness & deafness

Merle/Merle= Double Merle- risk of same results

The same results appear in Snakes as well. Also what about the Scottish Fold cats- 2 folds makes a double fold and they have severe bone structure issues.

All these examples in other species are the results of doubling the dominant gene, so why wouldn't there be the same risks in doubling the dominant gene with Mosaics?
There are many other health risks involved that are not seen at a young age.
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#980934 - 07/25/10 09:40 AM Re: MY Opinion on Mosaic Mosaic Pairings [Re: jacknsally]
Laurens_Babies Offline
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Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
I'm going to post my and Nancy's replies from another thread cause it applies in here, and THIS is the subject no leu / leu that I care about.
Originally Posted By: jacknsally
Originally Posted By: Laurens_Babies
Wouldn't this apply to wf to wf lion to lion etc etc even grey to grey?


I don't know a thing about genetics but I'm assuming the issues come up because of the inbreeding behind developing the non-natural colors. So I would think it has to do with breeding the inbred genetics back to inbred genetics. Not the same as breeding a natural to a natural.



Originally Posted By: Laurens_Babies
Ok but I would easily say that WF has just as many if not more messy inbred sources than leu and mosaic lines. So why breed WF to WF again like with mosaics you only need one to produce the color. I see no genetic difference. Out of matching with my gliders the only problems I've ever had is the WF lines messing up my cois. But Leu on Leu you can't get a leu out of just one and they didn't have the same sterility problem as mosaics did, messy lines but it took EXTREME practices to get sterile line mosaics and now because of when sterile line mosaics WERE bred we have old sterility in plenty of WF lineage.

Originally Posted By: Laurens_Babies
I guess my bottom line (and I'll have to move this and your posts to my mo mo thread is that I see absolutely no difference between breeding wf to wf and breeding mosaic to mosaic. We have a lot of good clean lines out there and arguably better lineages in mosaics then some WF's. My point is mosaic x mosaic; wf x wf the only difference is mosaic are high priced gliders. Sorry but I think this has to do with people judgments on breeders and thinking they are just in it for money.
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