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#980582 - 07/24/10 03:13 PM Since it came up... leu to leu breeding
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1414
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Hey, I saw the mosaic conversation turning to leus, and I was interested in hearing from everyone about their opinions of them.

I won't breed Leu x Leu, but I am interested in discussing the feelings about it.

There are MANY pairings of leu hets who have leucistic siblings. If the glider is 66% for example, and the mate is 100%... each one probably has leucistic siblings. We can breed the 66% and the 100% together with nobody blinking. HOWEVER, if someone were to breed the leus who are siblings to the same pair... all [censored] would break loose.

Now I personally think it would be more beneficial to breed each leu to a grey and then breed the offspring who are 100% leu hets. BUT... why are we so adiment about no leu x leu breeding when the COIs are exactly the same as some of our hets??
_________________________
Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
Travis-Rose-Ruby
Justice-Mercy
Natalia-Carmella-Cayden
Minka-Marco
Reagan-Jocelynn
Donnovin-Selina
Kaluah-Keeko-Emily-Monty-Lexy-Kevin-Raven-Skeeter
:rtmo: :leu: :bb: :cream: :plat:

www.tspsugar.com

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#980584 - 07/24/10 03:18 PM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: wildlifeangel]
cryingoutloud37 Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 680
Loc: michigan
Honestly I don't get this either? I wouldn't do it just because everyone is so against it but I don't really understand y? What is the difference between a het and a leu that is brother/sister???
_________________________
-Shannon-


If everyone put their problems in a pile, you just might want to grab yours back!

http://www.motowngliders.com/

Lots of Beautiful and Sweet Gliders

Six Skin Kids: Jake, Alie, Nick, Samantha, Ben and Luci

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#980591 - 07/24/10 03:29 PM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: wildlifeangel]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
I do not breed for leu, myself.

However, someone recently pointed out to me, that if we *did* breed leu to leu, we would actually be greatly improving the lines. You get twice as many leus to work with, and you don't have to inbreed as much to keep the variant alive.

If we had started out leu to leu at least as a regular practice the lines would be 1.6% LESS inbred per generation. We have inbred the lines so much that you can hardly FIND a leu with a low COI% anymore, when, in truth, they'd have been better off if we never tried to outbreed them.

Examples:
Breeding Sammie and Saleen together; Saleen was already inbred. But if the two of them produced a typical number of joeys in a breeding life, there would have been 14-20 MORE leus to work with and branch out instead of just the one, Horatio.

If the leu lines had just started with Sesame and Ethan, we would have had completely healthy lines to work with. We could have taken their 14-20 joeys, with their 0% COI and built the lines up from there.

Like I said - I don't breed for leu. But when someone pointed this out to me, it was pretty eye-opening. So, that being said - I don't know WHY people who breed leu to leu are treated like pariahs.

Because they contribute to more leus available, which brings the price down? That could quite possibly be it!
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#980610 - 07/24/10 04:03 PM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: ValkyrieMome]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
I have heard directly from one of the founding breeders that the leu to leu rule was only implemented for leu population control so the price would stay high longer. Profit. The whole thing was a scare campaign to keep more money in their pockets. Well, looks like it worked better than they thought, but the price on leus is hitting the bottom now, so...I think it's time for everyone to wake up and start breeding to better the lines instead of lining their pockets.
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#980612 - 07/24/10 04:05 PM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: kitsune]
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1414
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Originally Posted By: kitsune
I have heard directly from one of the founding breeders that the leu to leu rule was only implemented for leu population control so the price would stay high longer. Profit. The whole thing was a scare campaign to keep more money in their pockets. Well, looks like it worked better than they thought, but the price on leus is hitting the bottom now, so...I think it's time for everyone to wake up and start breeding to better the lines instead of lining their pockets.


shock shakehead shock
_________________________
Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
Travis-Rose-Ruby
Justice-Mercy
Natalia-Carmella-Cayden
Minka-Marco
Reagan-Jocelynn
Donnovin-Selina
Kaluah-Keeko-Emily-Monty-Lexy-Kevin-Raven-Skeeter
:rtmo: :leu: :bb: :cream: :plat:

www.tspsugar.com

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#980626 - 07/24/10 04:53 PM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: ValkyrieMome]
TheGliderPlayroom Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 02/24/04
Posts: 1594
Loc: Youngstown, Ohio
Alden, is 0.4% COI low enough for you?


I have sold one leu and two hets in four years, and I still don't agree with breeding leu x leu. Obviously it isn't about the money for me, because I've given away more leus for free than I've sold, and I've given away a lot of hets too.


Standard acceptable practice should be breeding out, not leu x 100% het or even 100% x 100%. People care only about producing color, the lines would be even more of a disaster than they already are, if leu x leu was readily acceptable.
_________________________
Helen
The Glider Playroom
PSG/Sugar Glider Database
Vice-President of the NE.O.B.B.C.

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#980630 - 07/24/10 05:03 PM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: TheGliderPlayroom]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Helen, you are like me with my mosaics. Sold one, kept one and gave two away!

Alden, if in the beginning, the original two (assuming they were unrelated) had been bred and produced 10 leus and then those were bred out, then there would be more lines to choose from (ok, they would be the same line but with a great deal of other genetic material in the lines). But the question is, how far should they BE bred out before pairing up hets or leus or combos of the two?

Do you take the original two's leu offspring and breed out 4 generations? 6? 20? At what point would it be ok to breed them back together?
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#980753 - 07/24/10 09:11 PM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: Dancing]
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 2836
Loc: roseville, mi
personally i suspect that we will start to see leu to leu being bred (hopefully from different lines) now that mosaic to mosaic is being bred.

regards,
nancy in detroit
p.s. i only hope the lines are pure so the male joeys arent sterile.
_________________________
regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)

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#980757 - 07/24/10 09:18 PM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: hwh4ev]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Why are you directing this thread to me, Helen and Teresa?

I didn't start the thread - I added something I'd heard - and specified that I didn't even breed leu!

I think many lines were screwed up in the beginnings. But probably leu and mosaic the most. I don't think it was intentional. But, it was done, none the less.
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

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#980853 - 07/25/10 02:18 AM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: ValkyrieMome]
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 9173
Loc: Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Just what is the defination of screwed up lines in the beginning?

I am not aware of any deformed Leus or Leus with compromised immune disorders from within the Leucistic Lines in the beginning. Nor do I know of any of today. Am I missing something?

Also, pairing my Leucistic named Sesamie to Ethan whould have been impossible. He was not for sale... and he was in Canada. Also, way back then... we were not sure if pairing two Leus together would result in the so called leathal white gene.

Anyone who wants a Healthy Leucistic with a low COI for breeding can find one from a reputable breeder. However, do not expect to pay $500 for a bred out joey. It takes several generations to breed one out selectivly which takes time and money to do so.

_________________________
Web site: www.MyLittleGremlin.com

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#980865 - 07/25/10 03:05 AM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: Judie]
Kozi Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 199
Loc: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Random question insert...

What is the lowest COI anyone's seen on a leu with relatively good lineage, does anyone know?
_________________________
Amber - Loving mommy to lots wonderful little gliders as well as a few other fuzzies and not so fuzzies! :D
(Three joeys currently in pouch! x3)

:grey: :wfb: :rtmo: :leu:

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#980873 - 07/25/10 04:59 AM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: Kozi]
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 956
Loc: Homestead, FL
Originally Posted By: Kozi
Random question insert...

What is the lowest COI anyone's seen on a leu with relatively good lineage, does anyone know?


My Mystic (Leu) is a 0% COI within a 5 generation pedigree and a 1% within a 10 generation pedigree. wink
_________________________
Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.

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#980879 - 07/25/10 06:33 AM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: Adri]
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1414
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
And the leu joey I am getting from GoGoGliders is 0.3158% on TPG database, 8 generations.
_________________________
Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
Travis-Rose-Ruby
Justice-Mercy
Natalia-Carmella-Cayden
Minka-Marco
Reagan-Jocelynn
Donnovin-Selina
Kaluah-Keeko-Emily-Monty-Lexy-Kevin-Raven-Skeeter
:rtmo: :leu: :bb: :cream: :plat:

www.tspsugar.com

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#980913 - 07/25/10 08:53 AM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: wildlifeangel]
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 3224
Loc: North Fort Worth - TX
With breeding leu/leu & mo/mo - are we risking the same results with "doubles" like in dog genetics. This probably more mosaic related since only one of these colorings is needed to produce an offspring of the same coloring.

Dapple/Dapple= Double Dapple- risk of blindness & deafness

Merle/Merle= Double Merle- risk of same results

If I remember correctly, the same results appear in Snakes as well.

There are many other health risks involved that are not seen at a young age.
_________________________
Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique

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#980920 - 07/25/10 09:11 AM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: jacknsally]
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
Wouldn't this apply to wf to wf lion to lion etc etc even grey to grey?
_________________________
~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*

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#980928 - 07/25/10 09:28 AM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: Laurens_Babies]
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 3224
Loc: North Fort Worth - TX
Originally Posted By: Laurens_Babies
Wouldn't this apply to wf to wf lion to lion etc etc even grey to grey?


I don't know a thing about genetics but I'm assuming the issues come up because of the inbreeding behind developing the non-natural colors. So I would think it has to do with breeding the inbred genetics back to inbred genetics. Not the same as breeding a natural to a natural.
_________________________
Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique

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#980930 - 07/25/10 09:33 AM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: jacknsally]
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
Ok but I would easily say that WF has just as many if not more messy inbred sources than leu and mosaic lines. So why breed WF to WF again like with mosaics you only need one to produce the color. I see no genetic difference. Out of matching with my gliders the only problems I've ever had is the WF lines messing up my cois. But Leu on Leu you can't get a leu out of just one and they didn't have the same sterility problem as mosaics did, messy lines but it took EXTREME practices to get sterile line mosaics and now because of when sterile line mosaics WERE bred we have old sterility in plenty of WF lineage.


Edited by Laurens_Babies (07/25/10 09:34 AM)
_________________________
~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*

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#980932 - 07/25/10 09:37 AM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: Laurens_Babies]
Laurens_Babies Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/04/07
Posts: 3570
Loc: Kansas City, MO
I guess my bottom line (and I'll have to move this and your posts to my mo mo thread is that I see absolutely no difference between breeding wf to wf and breeding mosaic to mosaic. We have a lot of good clean lines out there and arguably better lineages in mosaics then some WF's. My point is mosaic x mosaic; wf x wf the only difference is mosaic are high priced gliders. Sorry but I think this has to do with people judgments on breeders and thinking they are just in it for money.
_________________________
~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*

Top
#980939 - 07/25/10 09:42 AM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: Laurens_Babies]
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 3224
Loc: North Fort Worth - TX
It's a good question- why don't we/gliders see the same issues as other species when doing the same pairings.

These are recessive-
White Tiger/White Tiger
White Lion/White Lion

These are dominant-
Dapple/Dapple
Merle/Merle
Fold/Fold

Though they are different- pairing these same genetics together develops issues.
_________________________
Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique

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#981004 - 07/25/10 11:08 AM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: jacknsally]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
Alden, I only addressed you because my question was in direct response to your post AND because you don't breed leus. Because you don't breed leus, I feel your input is less biased. It certainly wasn't any type of attack or to put you on "the spot" at all.

For the most part, I agree with Lauren on mo to mo being no different than wf to wf EXCEPT for the sterility issues.

But yes, now that sterile line mos were bred to wf, it is a problem that has to be watched for in the wf lines as well.


Leu to leu ARE different because you have to have both parents carrying the gene. So to produce leu's, you have to breed back into the lines which makes it a "mess".
_________________________
620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

Top
#981142 - 07/25/10 04:32 PM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: Dancing]
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 10983
Loc: Denton, TX
Thanks Teresa!
_________________________
Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.

Top
#981147 - 07/25/10 04:47 PM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: Dancing]
kitsune Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 10/18/03
Posts: 1889
Loc: Springfield/Eugene, OR
It sounds to me like all Alden was saying is that we would have ended up with *healthier* lines had we started with leu to leu from the beginning. There have been leu to leu breedings that produced healthy offspring, and there is no reasonable argument that leads to leu x leu producing joeys that are unhealthy because their parents are both leu. Sure, there are genetic problems in other animals that when doubled, can lead to lots of problems. Why was it decided that leu would be like this? Not on any basis in reality. Just someone's convenient assumption that it would be the same. I could compare mosaic to lethal white or merle, but it doesn't mean that breeding mosaic to mosaic produces gliders with megacolon, shorter lifespan, or missing eyes and deafness.

There are still breeders out there that are in it for the money, there always will be as long as there is money in sugar gliders. My point was that this rule WAS originally implemented to control the price and rarity of leus. It was created because someone with the ability to breed leu wanted to make sure their market didn't drop out. When I had only been around for a year and leus were only being sold to USDA licensed breeders, I told someone I wanted to breed leus and give them away to anyone that wanted one at no charge, those that had the leu lines to breed made sure I didn't get any leus or hets because they were afraid I would affect their market. They were going for $2500 per leu and $1500 per 100% leu het. Obviously that profit margin has bottomed out now, so I encourage breeders to move forward with their efforts to breed better lines rather than backward. This rule was made for profit, not the health of the gliders. If leu to leu breeding was accepted, we would be able to branch our lines out further, breeding healthier lines. I'm certainly not saying that leu breeders are all about profit, I'm just saying that even if we've reached a 0% COI now, there are still leus I've seen being bred with 12.5% COIs.

Inbreeding leads to a great deal of problems. I know about this first hand, and am always one of the first to stand up against inbreeding. I would NEVER support an idea that could lead to more inbreeding and genetic problems. The concept that Alden posted is a well known breeding concept--breed recessive color variants together not only to preserve the color, but to strengthen the lines and help the variant get a better hold. More leus means more options, more of the gene to be worked with, and in the end, healthier and stronger gliders that are leu or carry the leu gene.
_________________________
Beth

mlove Glide free :rbridge: :bb: Dimitri and Tegan :wfb: :rbridge: and right-side up! mlove

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#981156 - 07/25/10 05:05 PM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: kitsune]
heartlandglider Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 11/29/06
Posts: 282
Loc: In
Beth, all I can say is Amen and a GREAT BIG THANK YOU!!!!!
_________________________
Dianne Kieffer
Heartland Gliders




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#981389 - 07/26/10 01:53 AM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: Adri]
Kozi Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 199
Loc: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: Adri
Originally Posted By: Kozi
Random question insert...

What is the lowest COI anyone's seen on a leu with relatively good lineage, does anyone know?


My Mystic (Leu) is a 0% COI within a 5 generation pedigree and a 1% within a 10 generation pedigree. wink


Thank you, and Nadine as well, for replying to my question!

So a 0.0488% with 8 generations is pretty decent by most standards, then?
_________________________
Amber - Loving mommy to lots wonderful little gliders as well as a few other fuzzies and not so fuzzies! :D
(Three joeys currently in pouch! x3)

:grey: :wfb: :rtmo: :leu:

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#981395 - 07/26/10 02:02 AM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: Kozi]
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1414
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
That COI is decent by ANY standard. laugh

I personally try to keep my COIs under 3, but it is something that many of us disagree upon, and it also depends on how far out from the originals that they are.
_________________________
Nadine

Adam-Eve
Starsky-Bianca
Gabriel-Charity
Barrington-Bailey
Travis-Rose-Ruby
Justice-Mercy
Natalia-Carmella-Cayden
Minka-Marco
Reagan-Jocelynn
Donnovin-Selina
Kaluah-Keeko-Emily-Monty-Lexy-Kevin-Raven-Skeeter
:rtmo: :leu: :bb: :cream: :plat:

www.tspsugar.com

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#981396 - 07/26/10 02:05 AM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: wildlifeangel]
Kozi Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 199
Loc: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
-noddles- We're hoping to bring out leus with as low a COI as we can manage. Thanks to the help of an absolutely wonderful lady we may have quite the pair since neither parent is from the same leu line and both are a few generations removed from any of the main leus. So I was interested in seeing what other COIs are relatively normal or average for other leus.
_________________________
Amber - Loving mommy to lots wonderful little gliders as well as a few other fuzzies and not so fuzzies! :D
(Three joeys currently in pouch! x3)

:grey: :wfb: :rtmo: :leu:

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#981415 - 07/26/10 02:52 AM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: Kozi]
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 956
Loc: Homestead, FL
Originally Posted By: Kozi
Originally Posted By: Adri
Originally Posted By: Kozi
Random question insert...

What is the lowest COI anyone's seen on a leu with relatively good lineage, does anyone know?


My Mystic (Leu) is a 0% COI within a 5 generation pedigree and a 1% within a 10 generation pedigree. wink


Thank you, and Nadine as well, for replying to my question!

So a 0.0488% with 8 generations is pretty decent by most standards, then?


Actually that is above average by any standard! There aren't many Leus out there with a COI of less than 1%. wink
_________________________
Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.

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#981416 - 07/26/10 02:54 AM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: Kozi]
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian

Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 956
Loc: Homestead, FL
Originally Posted By: Kozi
-noddles- We're hoping to bring out leus with as low a COI as we can manage. Thanks to the help of an absolutely wonderful lady we may have quite the pair since neither parent is from the same leu line and both are a few generations removed from any of the main leus. So I was interested in seeing what other COIs are relatively normal or average for other leus.


Amber what will you be pairing? Two Leus? or a Leu/Leu het?
_________________________
Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.

Top
#981417 - 07/26/10 02:57 AM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: Adri]
Kozi Offline
Glider Explorer

Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 199
Loc: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Leu hets, no direct leus.
_________________________
Amber - Loving mommy to lots wonderful little gliders as well as a few other fuzzies and not so fuzzies! :D
(Three joeys currently in pouch! x3)

:grey: :wfb: :rtmo: :leu:

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#981518 - 07/26/10 11:22 AM Re: Since it came up... leu to leu breeding [Re: Kozi]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
One thing I think folks overlook on the issue of breeding for a specific genetic trait is it is not the leu GENE that can cause inbreeding health issues but other recessive genes for deformities/disorders that share the same CHROMOSOME with the leu gene.

Chromosomes are found in pairs and the egg and sperm each carry one copy that make the pair of chromosomes in the resulting joey. So when a joey develops from a pair of gliders that each contributed a chromosome containing the leu gene, it also receives all the other genes on that chromosome.

Since no one has seen any specific secondary recessive traits in the leu joeys, it may be the case that there are not any 'lethal' or otherwise dangerous genes associated with the chromosome that carries the leu trait.

In other species with a "lethal white gene" - it is most likely not the GENE for the recessive white color but another GENE(S) on the same chromosome that cause the problem. The result of an animal getting two copies of one or more of these other recessive genes on the same chromosome as the white gene is the SYNDROME or pattern of bad traits or conditions associated with that chromosome.

The white gene is just the most visible marker for animals receiving two copies of the chromosome carrying other potential bad recessive traits.

This is also why the sterile mosaics occur as an X-linked recessive. Some gliders carrying the mosaic gene have been shown to also carry the sterility trait on the X-chromosome. ("sterile lines") A het mosaic glider has a 50% chance of passing on the chromosome with the mosaic gene. If they also carry the X chromosome with the sterile gene - females have a 50% chance of passing this trait to their sons and a 50% chance their daughters will be 'carriers'. Males that have the X chromosome and are sterile - cannot, of course, pass it on.

The Mosaic color gene is probably not on the X chromosome but through breeding gliders with both traits, a substantial number (25%) of joeys from a mosaic mother that carries the sterile gene will get BOTH a copy of the chromosome carrying the mosaic trait and the X chromosome carrying the sterility trait.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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