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#990717 - 08/13/10 10:32 AM More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.)
LabNGliderMom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 01/04/09
Posts: 3753
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: Viva La Glider
I only recommend one diet, and the reason for that is simple. I only use one diet and I don't feel qualified to comment on any others. The diet we use (Suncoast) has been nutritonally tested. The results were posted in Dr Dierenfeld's study. The only change we've made to the diet is to change the staple from Zookeepers Secret to Wholesome Balance which was formulated under the guidance of Dr D. It is the only staple diet made with all human grade ingredients AND soy free.

Using soy in animal diets concerns me because soy is not a complete protein and it has a high measure of phytoestrogens which are female hormones.

We've used this diet for eleven years now with generation after generation and we do not see any significant health issues. I just recently lost Miss Vivian, who was my oldest glider. She was 16. Many of my gliders have averaged ages in excess in ten years (hopefully in another five years of doing this I will have an improved number).

I am skeptical of the newer diets simply because they have not been used over generations and I think that is an important measure of success in a diet plan.


I have been looking into diets more lately, and when I responded to PEGGY'S DIET TALK THREAD I saw this- I wanted THAT topic to stay on topic with everyone answering the basic questions, but saw the SunCoast questions and answers and I am confused so can someone please help me clear this up? - the original diet, as tested, in 2003, was including Zookeepers Secret as a staple, correct?

When was the change made from Zookeepers Secret to Wholesome Balance?

Was another diet study done after the change and if so what are the results now?

How can you say you have used the *same* diet for 11 years when you clearly state you did make a change to the staple? Can you please clarify how long you've used it using each staple instead of overall?

Also- someone mentioned the PP diet and how "sprinkling made them uncomfortable" and a response of "there is measuring involved" was made- since I do not know much about the Priscilla Price diet personally, could someone who feeds it please tell us about it in detail?

Lastly - I keep seeing all these references to a 2003 diet study comparing a few glider diets- but there are many more in use today... why hasn't / when will another study be done to compare the myriad of diets ont he market so that it is more clear which is the *most nutritionally sound*? Does anyone know?


Edited by LabNGliderMom (08/13/10 10:35 AM)
_________________________
Julie
Hubby: George
Kids: Ayla & Michael
Grandsons: Trysten, Dayton, KJ & Nathyn
The Zoo: Midnight, Severe & Nala - Claude, Pixie, Tippy & Chili - Scout & Soluna, Theo & Deegie

http://hammockhavenpetsplus.com



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#990723 - 08/13/10 10:43 AM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: LabNGliderMom]
wildlifeangel Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 1414
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
I can only respond to the PP diet.

We put 1/8 tsp for each glider on top of the frozen diet. Some people are uncomfortable with that because theoretically one glider can come and eat all of the vitamin, leaving none for the others in the cage. I haven't had an issue with it, but I can see how it could be a concern in some situations.
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#990735 - 08/13/10 11:06 AM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: wildlifeangel]
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 12/03/08
Posts: 2836
Loc: roseville, mi
the chicken/rice hard pellet was introduced by suncoast last year. i use both the soft and hard pellet.

regards,
nancy in fl/detroit


Edited by hwh4ev (08/13/10 11:08 AM)
_________________________
regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)

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#990743 - 08/13/10 11:32 AM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: LabNGliderMom]
jimbo Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 03/11/10
Posts: 137
Loc: FL
Yes, at the time of the 2003 test Zookeepers Secret was the staple, which is an animal protein-based food, as opposed to most pellets with primary ingredients of soy, corn, wheat, etc. This was the only protein-based nutritionally appropriate food available at the time, and used extensively in zoos as a staple with insectivore / omnivores. Our vet at the time (Dr C) had extensive experience with exotics and the SunCoast diet was her design, not "ours". So even though it's called the SunCoast diet, it was designed by a vet specializing in exotics and not Lisa, etc. You can read about Dr C's background here:

http://www.sugar-gliders.com/exotic-pet-vet.htm#drc

Based on the results of the test, which are available here:

http://www.sugar-gliders.com/Sugar-Glider-Diet-Study.pdf

Dr D (who conducted the test) helped us design Wholesome Balance after the test, which is also an animal protein-based food that is quite similar to Zookeepers Secret in composition except it is a dry food and better balanced for meeting the nutritional needs of sugar gliders. After a couple of years of development and testing, the colony was gradually moved to Wholesome Balance in 2008.

As to why no more tests have been done, I can't answer that, other than it takes a nutritional scientist with equipment, animals, and money. The previous test was sponsored by many in this community through the Glider Research Fund, so it *is* possible to make something like this happen.
_________________________
Jimbo, Webmaster
SunCoast Sugar Gliders
http://www.sugar-gliders.com/

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#990866 - 08/13/10 03:19 PM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: jimbo]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16758
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
After a couple of years of development and testing, the colony was gradually moved to Wholesome Balance in 2008.


Can we please view the test results from this testing? And also what types of testing was performed?

Quote:
The previous test was sponsored by many in this community through the Glider Research Fund, so it *is* possible to make something like this happen.


To have a diet study done to get more answers than what we had given before, we would need a LOT more details, a LOT more gliders (of different generations) a LOT more TIME so although yes a *simple quick* study may be possible but to collect blood work, radiographs, bile acid reports, fecal testings, etc completely and done as NEEDED, it would cost a LOT more overall.

And lets face it, this diet study was done SEVEN years ago...a LOT has changed in seven years.

Quote:
it is what it is, a study of 4 - 9 month male gliders, and people can take that and decide if and how it applies to breeders, females, aged gliders, and so forth.


No see thats just it, people should NOT HAVE to decide how it applies to breeders, females, aged gliders and so forth. A proper, complete study should have included those types of gliders as well.

What *we* need (the community) is a diet study done by folks that can be NON-biased and be able to offer different opinions and options. Not care if they agree with or against the folks that use a particular diet.

Quote:
The only change we've made to the diet is to change the staple from Zookeepers Secret to Wholesome Balance


Once again, it has been mentioned, we do not know the affects of a diet unless it has been used for YEARS...yet Wholesome Balance was just designed a year ago.
Not saying it is not a good diet, but I will say just because a vet helped create it, does not mean it is definitely good. (take a look around, there are some vets that really shouldnt even have their license, little less create a diet, and No this is NOT directed at Dr.D)

Quote:
We've used this diet for eleven years now with generation after generation and we do not see any significant health issues.


Once again I have to say, you have NOT used THIS diet for eleven years since you just changed to wholesome balance a year ago. So this is actually an inacurrate statement.

And although it doesnt happen much in todays world tounge , I have to say...I agree with EVERYTHING Teresa said here...
Quote:
With all due respect to those that were involved in the diet study jimbo mentioned. There were a lot of problems associated with that study. Only 9 gliders were used. Ages ranging between 4 and 9 months oop. No females were used, no adults or older gliders were used and no breeding gliders were used. It was a very short term study, not one that spanned generations which to me does NOT qualify it as a complete scientific study nor are the findings of that study scientifically reliable. There were too many variables not accounted for. (for example) The gliders were shipped to the location causing stress. Stress is KNOWN to cause medical issues (such as compromised immune systems).


The study was a "good idea" that just was not well executed.
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#990933 - 08/13/10 05:15 PM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: Srlb]
jimbo Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 03/11/10
Posts: 137
Loc: FL
I find it interesting there's so much resistance to accepting the results of a scientific study when everyone keeps crying for one. I have not endorsed any diet (go ahead, check the posts), I simply responded to questions about the study.

Then you toss in the word "NON-biased". Exactly what does that infer? If you need more information on the origins of the study and how it came about, I suggest you talk with Ellen and Bruce Ross, who were heavily involved in the effort. Go ahead an ask them if the "study was biased", if that is what you mean.

And sure, the community could mount an incredibly complex, very expensive study that would take years and years. In fact, people have been talking about just that - for years and years, right? Couldn't do a small, focused scientific study. Nah. Has to be massive, meaning impossible. It's a convenient way of keeping the diet ball rolling, I guess.

The folks back in 2003, we stopped talking about it and did something (small) about it. Feel free to ignore it!
_________________________
Jimbo, Webmaster
SunCoast Sugar Gliders
http://www.sugar-gliders.com/

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#990945 - 08/13/10 05:34 PM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: jimbo]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16758
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Jimbo, first things first, DONT take anything *personal*. It just leads to heated debates which lead to nowhere. Just take it for what it is, questions and opinion.

You keep going back to the ONE study that was done SEVEN years ago. SOOO many things have been discovered, be it through trial and error, necropsy's, health related issues, that in order to keep learning and growing, more need to be done.

Is it impossible? See you think so, I dont. I believe in this community and when a challenge is presented, some how, some way, we manage to get things together and get it rolling. Does that mean it will happen over night? Of course not. It may mean that we have to *talk about it* for a few more years. But as long as there is a goal in mind, it gives us something to strive for and to try to accomplish.

As for the study that was there, dont worry, I was THERE at the SGGA when she shared all the results. What I dont understand is why you seem to be getting upset because there is mention how another one, more detailed, would be so welcomed.

It is NOT being *ignored* but I am telling you much like all the other glider information out there from *that time frame* is outdated material compared to the new things that have been learned.

If that were not so, then please tell me why did you change from zookeepers to the Wholesome Balance? Was it not to make improvements not only for your gliders but for your customers as well?
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#990946 - 08/13/10 05:38 PM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: jimbo]
LabNGliderMom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 01/04/09
Posts: 3753
Loc: Florida
I don't feel, personally, that anyone is "ignoring" the data generated by the 2003 study... but I have to agree with both Teresa and Peggy that a small scale study of 3 diets completed 7 years ago on 9 male gliders only in a certain age group is not my idea of "complete, scientific research."

What I (and I assume many others) want to see is a study:

-that lasts for many years, not just a few weeks or months
-that compares many diets, not just three
-that is on-going and releases "dats updates" every "x" amount of months
-being done on gliders of both genders
-being done on gliders in all age groups from newly OOP to geriatrics
-being done on breeders, rescues, and pet-only gliders
-being done in multiple locations worldwide so that climate and location effects on the diets can be noted as well

Without the data generated from such a study, all any of us truly has is an opinion about our choice of diet or what we personally think of the other diets out there. There is no "proven" diet that is "the correct" diet for gliders right now- but it would be great, IMO, if we could someday get to the point where there was. smile
_________________________
Julie
Hubby: George
Kids: Ayla & Michael
Grandsons: Trysten, Dayton, KJ & Nathyn
The Zoo: Midnight, Severe & Nala - Claude, Pixie, Tippy & Chili - Scout & Soluna, Theo & Deegie

http://hammockhavenpetsplus.com



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#990951 - 08/13/10 05:48 PM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: LabNGliderMom]
jimbo Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 03/11/10
Posts: 137
Loc: FL
Let me get this straight...you're saying the *animals* have changed in 7 years? That if the same study was replicated today the results would be different?

Just want to understand your point.
_________________________
Jimbo, Webmaster
SunCoast Sugar Gliders
http://www.sugar-gliders.com/

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#990958 - 08/13/10 06:01 PM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: jimbo]
KarenE Online   /gc/lgc
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41380
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
Peggy, if you want to talk to someone who was deeply involved in the '03 diet study, you should talk to Lori.

BML was in fact one of the diets fed during the study.

The third was a high grade kibble aka cat food, I believe.

The results are posted in this thread. Scroll down a little in the thread for the PDF download.
_________________________
Your Sugar Glider Resource Center
Sugar Glider Help



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#990969 - 08/13/10 06:16 PM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: KarenE]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16758
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Karen, we have that study. That is not the study we are wanting. We are in hopes to be able to one day do a new, more intense study, but for now, it is just started with different peoples thoughts, diets, opinions in the diet talk thread.

Jimbo, do you think all the animals are *the same* that are on a number of different diets, or do you think they may change being fed different things?
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#990971 - 08/13/10 06:24 PM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: KarenE]
jimbo Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 03/11/10
Posts: 137
Loc: FL
KarenE, thanks for the link, that's very helpful.

I would also like to point out (again) that Dr. D is not a vet, she has PhD's in animal science and animal nutrition, and has done a tremendous amount of feeding research:

http://www.sugar-gliders.com/exotic-pet-vet.htm#drd
_________________________
Jimbo, Webmaster
SunCoast Sugar Gliders
http://www.sugar-gliders.com/

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#990974 - 08/13/10 06:32 PM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: jimbo]
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 10/30/03
Posts: 16758
Loc: St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
It is NOT being *ignored* but I am telling you much like all the other glider information out there from *that time frame* is outdated material compared to the new things that have been learned.

If that were not so, then please tell me why did you change from zookeepers to the Wholesome Balance? Was it not to make improvements not only for your gliders but for your customers as well?



Quote:
Jimbo, do you think all the animals are *the same* that are on a number of different diets, or do you think they may change being fed different things?
_________________________
Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love® Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.


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#990988 - 08/13/10 07:00 PM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: LabNGliderMom]
lowstorm
Unregistered


To do a true study you'd be looking at around 300 gliders, all housed identically, on about 10 different diets, for their lifetime. I don't think that the small community we have would ever beable to fund that study, if you could find someone who'd want to do the scientific part of it. There'd be no profit in it, really.

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#991026 - 08/13/10 08:52 PM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: ]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
If you look at that study done 7 years ago, all three diets were found to be nutritionally incomplete.

I do not push for one diet over another. I feed what I do simply because it works for me and my gliders and has for the last 6 years. Prior to that I tried NUMEROUS different diets and "experiments" trying to find something my gliders would eat consistantly for more than a month (that was the best I got with any other diet).

I say all the time, it does not matter how good a diet is if your glider won't eat it, it isn't any good for your glider.

jimbo, there were problems with that study...how many gliders survived the whole thing? The shipping to the study site, the study and the return from the study?

I'm not saying that study was all bad. Just saying it was too limited and actually so incomplete as it did leave more questions than answers. To me, it showed us nothing much more than we already knew. Which is that we need a FULL scientific study done that spans more than a few months, but more like a couple of generations and with a much broader "test group".

Why hasn't this been done yet? Very simple...MONEY. This type of study would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not into the millions).
_________________________
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I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.

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#991056 - 08/13/10 10:02 PM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: Dancing]
KarenE Online   /gc/lgc
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41380
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Dancing
If you look at that study done 7 years ago, all three diets were found to be nutritionally incomplete.

You are correct, Teresa, and they were all found to provide approximately the same results. I have not gone back to reread the study, but I do remember all of us being surprised at the iron levels showing up in all the gliders.

I do not push for one diet over another. I feed what I do simply because it works for me and my gliders and has for the last 6 years. Prior to that I tried NUMEROUS different diets and "experiments" trying to find something my gliders would eat consistantly for more than a month (that was the best I got with any other diet).

I say all the time, it does not matter how good a diet is if your glider won't eat it, it isn't any good for your glider.

jimbo, there were problems with that study...how many gliders survived the whole thing? The shipping to the study site, the study and the return from the study?

I do know that all the gliders made it to the place the study was conducted and back to Suncoast. The study was really out of money at that point, so I am not sure what happened to the gliders.

I'm not saying that study was all bad. Just saying it was too limited and actually so incomplete as it did leave more questions than answers. To me, it showed us nothing much more than we already knew. Which is that we need a FULL scientific study done that spans more than a few months, but more like a couple of generations and with a much broader "test group".

Why hasn't this been done yet? Very simple...MONEY. This type of study would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not into the millions).
_________________________
Your Sugar Glider Resource Center
Sugar Glider Help



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#991060 - 08/13/10 10:20 PM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: KarenE]
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 09/03/08
Posts: 5138
Loc: Lutz Florida
One of the 'conclusions' reached in that study was that MORE study was needed.

I think there are several other good diet options available now that should be studied in addition to SunCoast and BML.

The fact that there are other diets that gliders are doing well on means the initial study, limited as it was, is out dated because it did not include other diets that are being used currently.

It is irrelevant if the initial study was on enough gliders or for too short a time period. A new study needs to be designed using a larger glider sample and covering many more currently used diets.

Unfortunately, funding for this is not just going to appear, it will take someone (or an organization) to design the study and obtain funding before any of these questions will be answered.

I think we can all agree - a better study needs to be done.
_________________________
Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com

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#991062 - 08/13/10 10:35 PM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: CandyOtte]
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 02/23/06
Posts: 5830
Loc: USA
I remember at least 2 of those gliders died. It was not known as to why so was suggested that it was probably due to stress.

Was there ever a definite answer? Were necropsies done?
_________________________
Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.

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#991064 - 08/13/10 10:53 PM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: SugarBlossoms]
KarenE Online   /gc/lgc
Owner

Registered: 03/25/00
Posts: 41380
Loc: LittleRock, AR USA
If I remember correctly, their deaths were not related to the study or their return to Lisa, but I do not remember the details.

Truthfully, it really doesn't matter at this point.

Like Candy posted, there are many other diets available now that were not in 2003 when the study was conducted really making it outdated.

It would be wonderful if a whole new study could be funded.
_________________________
Your Sugar Glider Resource Center
Sugar Glider Help



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#991146 - 08/14/10 08:35 AM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: KarenE]
Ftr_Glider_Mom
Unregistered


I don't really adhere to any actual diet. I just use whatever fruits and vegetables and meats are safe and keep away whatever isn't good for Bubby. And I give them WHOLE... only cut in small pieces for him to eat and not blended. He likes that. He's very happy and healthy and has a large running wheel to keep him from getting too plump.

Though I could use tips on coat cleaning... the white on him isn't as white as it should be.

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#991148 - 08/14/10 08:44 AM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: KarenE]
Briarthorn
Unregistered


Reading this post has really started my mind turning. We can do this as a community. )I actually have the skill set and experience to help us out with this. I can finally contribute something!)

I worked in a lab doing genetic experiments on plants for about five years. One thing I learned was that everything comes down to data. Data data data and number crunching. I have massive experience in managing data (5 years inteh navy, and 8 years after that). I also have experience in
writing up scientific research and findings. I also know how to track down info I can;t find.

I think that I could actually come up with somehting with yalls help that we could do on an individual basis. We send the data and test results in, it's compiled and the numbers are crunched.

Some bugs we'd have to work out.

1. How to decide what gliders/people take part.

It'll be important to choose people we can be confident can afford the regular testing and have a stable enough enviroment to assist in narrowing down the variables to work with. Also, we want to make sure that we track glider ages, sex, etc. Very important. Who knows, we may find that breeding gliders should get one diet and geriatric gliders another. Something to think about.

2. how to account for variables we can't do any thing about.

We can have people track the temperatures of their rooms each day, how many gliders per cage, how much food a feeding, only use a specific detergent and cleaner, how much time out of cage, etc. The key will be in the details. The more detailed info we collect on the gliders and their enviroments the more non diet results we can weed out.

3. Answer important questions: Who will collect the data? Who will crunch the numbers? Who will write it up? How will we communicate we're spread out every where? What experts will we consult with and trust?

4. Most important.

What EXACTLY do we want this study to accomplish?
Just gather data and see what happens and what we can answer with it (my vote)? Zero in on something specific?

How will use this information? What do we want to do with it ultimately?

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#991153 - 08/14/10 09:00 AM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: KarenE]
jimbo Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 03/11/10
Posts: 137
Loc: FL
If I could make a suggestion, the science is not outdated, it is what it is. The age of the study does not change the general conclusions that:

* All diets supplied more energy than needed by the animals,
thus allowing selective feeding behaviors

* All diets in this study provided more than adequate
levels of protein by comparison with stated needs

To this day, people often talk about "getting more protein" in the diet when the basic BML diet tested in 2003 provides 5X more protein than the requirement established *in 1987* by nutritional scientists and quoted in the study. 1987.

The fact there are diets around today that were not around in 2003 doesn't invalidate the findings of the study. Further, one might ask, were the people who designed these new diets aware of the study and conclusions, and take them into account when designing their new diets? Were they aware of the conclusions in the supporting research quoted in the 2003 study brought forth by Dr D?

So, a real question for the community that needs to be answered *before* time or money is invested in the creation of a new study is this: Will people actually pay attention to the results of the study and modify their diets?

If the answer is "what happened last time will happen again", then what is the point of doing a study?

People have to be willing to listen to and act on not only the science that exists, but also accept the results of new science as it comes along. Or there is really no point in talking about doing "studies", massive or otherwise.

If I could make another suggestion, instead of the answer always being "we need a massive study", which never seems to move forward, we should follow the scientific method - build on what we know, and make forward progress. This highly respected animal nutritionist has provided a specific roadmap, based on what she knows has *not* been studied:

* more concentrated efforts need to be made to look at vitamin D, Ca, and P metabolism and interactions in sugar gliders, because osteodystrophy and calcium tetany can still be problematic.

* need to identify whether gliders have the enzyme for making their own vitamin C as do many animals. If so, excess dietary supplementation may not be warranted and may actually contribute to iron overload.

* On that note, blood carrier and storage proteins for iron should also be investigated — saturation of transferrin and ferritin — in this species.

If we focused on these key unknowns and made them known with targeted efforts, forward progress would be made, and at some point the body of knowledge might be large enough to interest the nutrition research community. Doing a study, massive or otherwise, which does not answer these key questions leaves us in exactly the same position as before.
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#991154 - 08/14/10 09:05 AM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: jimbo]
jimbo Offline
Joey Member

Registered: 03/11/10
Posts: 137
Loc: FL
Regarding glider deaths as a result of the study: One got a tail injury and the vet in charge of the study kept that glider with our blessing, but none of them died as a result of the study.
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#991159 - 08/14/10 09:22 AM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: KarenE]
lovely1inred
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: KarenE
Peggy, if you want to talk to someone who was deeply involved in the '03 diet study, you should talk to Lori.

BML was in fact one of the diets fed during the study.

The third was a high grade kibble aka cat food, I believe.

The results are posted in this thread. Scroll down a little in the thread for the PDF download.


If I may ask, who is Lori and does she post here often?

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#991164 - 08/14/10 09:41 AM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: ]
LabNGliderMom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 01/04/09
Posts: 3753
Loc: Florida
Jessica, Lori is Bourbon, the creator of the BML diet
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#991181 - 08/14/10 10:17 AM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: LabNGliderMom]
LabNGliderMom Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 01/04/09
Posts: 3753
Loc: Florida
Okay- having re-read Jimbos post, I have this to say:

1) my understanding is that of the 9 gliders in the study, the only one still alive is the tail injury one you mentioned that the vet in Virginia has - the other 8 all died shortly after the study but no necropsies were completed- so while they may not have died DURING the study there is no way to determine if they die as a RESULT of the study

2) The gliders in the study SHOULD have spent the remainder off their lives carefully monitored and been necropsied at death regardless, then the results posted in an update to the study to actually make it "complete" and without that the study may have provided GOOD info bit did not provide COMPLETE info, IMO

I feel more needs to be said but I am on the road and it will have to wait until this evening.


Edited by LabNGliderMom (08/14/10 10:22 AM)
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#991199 - 08/14/10 10:54 AM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: LabNGliderMom]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
for starts..

I was left totally out of the loop regarding that diet study, I was told after the fact, because I wouldn't have agreed with how it was done, and because the BML was being tested, it would not have been unbiased..

well the issues I had with the study are simple, I spoke to ellen dierenfield after the study, and I specifically asked her, what changes I could make to the bml, to make it better.. her response to me was short and simple.. and she said nothing , nothing at all, that any change I would make to the BML, would throw off the balance that had been achieved.

now as for the study, I was told that they were supposed to comne from 3 different breeders, fed 3 different diets.

since all of the gliders were born and bred on the suncoast, their nutritional foundation was already started with suncoast..

should have been 3 sets, born and bred to those specific diets.

the study was only a 3 month study, that 3 month study was full of gliders being shifted from place to place, taken to the vet, etc.. 3 monthgs that were not scientifically stress free.

when the one glider started to sm, dr thomas, took him, and continued to feed him BML, she was also a vet that was involved with the study..

(imagine a vet involved with a study feeding one of the test diets.., that should say a lot for the bml) from what I understand that glider is still alive and well.

the gliders were left over night on a tarmac at the airport, so the specifics as to why all of them died was never really clear.

They were not quarantined after they were returned to Lisa, and whether or not they infected her breeder gliders, or whether the breeders infected them will never really be known.

but one thing was for sure, the remaining gliders in that study had low, immune systems to die as fast as they did following the study.

but I do know that lisa left the glider community at that time, because she felt that those running the study should have paid for the necropsies.

do I think it was a good valid study that diets could be created/modified from.. no.. in fact using ellen dierenfields words... it only means we need to do more studies. it is a start, nothing more, nothing less.

if you notice that ALL of the figures in the diet study are similar, none is any better than the other.. almost like they were all born and bred on the same diet huh?

I believe a valid study needs to be done, a more extensive one, one that will include diets where the gliders are born and bred from. and those diets should be very strictly followed, not extras being added or modified,
all of the glider should be varied in age, but the same age groups within all diets. and multiple genders used.
The study should last for a period of at least 1 year, and
be highly scrutinized, regarding temperatures, water, and regular exercise. (none of which was done with the first study..)

Jimbo with all due respects, it is like taking gas that is mixed and is used for a weed eater, and using that in the lawn mower.. although it may work temporarily it may not be as efficient as using (doing) what is scientifically needed to be used all the time.

I really do feel, that any conclusions that anyone comes up with based on that study, is just looking for quick answers and their individual speculations are coming into play.

jimbo, you feel suncoast came out smelling like a rose..
I may feel that BML came out smelling like a rose..
and dierenfield may feel that hers came out smelling like a rose..

when in actuality.. the diet study was nothing more than the concrete block placed in the yard for a marker of where to start building the house.

Karene, I wasn't going to post in here, but you did tell people I was involved in the study, I wasn't.. but I do have my own opinions on the study and how it was handled.

jimbo, as for dr c specializing in gliders at the time, Dr C, was just like the rest of our vets, and she was learning as well. In fact gliders were not her speciality.

I will never take away what dr C has learned, but there were many other vets out there, and still are, that is far more extensively involved with the gliders.

when suncoast diet came out, there were actually very few zoos, that even knew what a glider was let alone had them. in fact there are still few zoos that have them.

Lisa chose the best diet that she thought was best for her, just like the rest of us.

Please do not use marketing ploys to prove a point. it will only look bad.


Edited by Bourbon (08/14/10 11:03 AM)
Edit Reason: added more
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#991206 - 08/14/10 11:14 AM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: LabNGliderMom]
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 7748
Loc: New Jersey
This is all very interesting.

But I have this to say about testing diets: if, as a community, we all agree that a formal controlled study needs to be done over time with all the necessary data collecting, etc, my big question is: who is willing to give up their gliders to do this study? they will basically be experimental animals.

what may be better is people at home keeping very detailed records of all foods fed, exercise times, age sizes, etc, and have blood tests, xrays, weights, etc. done to use for comparisons...but that may or may not be enough as it is not truly controlled.

when speaking of a controlled test I get this horrible image of a sterile lab with 100 gliders in cages and getting stuck with needles.

it may have been only 9 used in that study. better 9 than 100. but perhaps I am looking at it a different way.

By the way, wish I could remember where I read it, but I did come across info where they DID take gliders from the wild and look at stomach contents.

enough info is out there showing what gliders consume in the wild. Tree saps and gums, honey and pollen, bug exudes, manna, honeydew, bugs, occasional bird or egg or other small animal. what we need to do now is copy the same ingredients in the home. THAT is the type of testing that needs to be done.

So someone fly to australia, gather those food items, and do a test on those items and figure out how we copy it here.
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#991208 - 08/14/10 11:19 AM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: Bourbon]
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 04/01/99
Posts: 5333
Loc: Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Quote:
The only change we've made to the diet is to change the staple from Zookeepers Secret to Wholesome Balance which was formulated under the guidance of Dr D. It is the only staple diet made with all human grade ingredients AND soy free.


you speak as if that change is not substantial, and it is. if the finer details were earmarked, and the actual figures regarding the nutrition and the ingredients were compared, there would be a huge difference..

why can I say this, because the bml, has been dissected into the finer figures many times over, publically, suncoast has not, nor has any of the other diets that I am aware of.

the amount of exercise that gliders get, what time they wake up, how long they are up, as Briarthorn, posted, all the variables play a very unique part of their processing,

I am sure that dr d, spoke of the floating membrane, and how she didn't think gliders needed calcium at all, compared them to the fruit bat study..

do I think that gliders have changed in the last 7 years?? sure, why wouldn't they, you have generations and generations of gliders now, that have been fed, not having to forage, they don't get that mass exercise they would get in the wild, their temperatures are ambient, and the additives that are placed in the foods, have definitely made a difference..

the gliders in our homes, can not and do not have the thermal regulators that they would have in the wild, their fat adipose is far leaner, we also have the many variables that they don't have in the wild. bacterias, parasites, etc..
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CustomCruiser

BML

Sugar Glider Genetic Project

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#991216 - 08/14/10 11:31 AM Re: More Diet Questions (SunCoast, PP, Etc.) [Re: Bourbon]
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 09/10/04
Posts: 22746
Loc: 80 acres of paradise in KS
B's right. Compared to wild gliders, our gliders almost live in bubbles. We are very careful to wash their foods and prepare them in safe sanitary conditions. We try our best to shield our gliders from outside contaminants. Our gliders are not exposed to harsh and extreme climate changes. Our gliders don't have to go out in the rain to find food. Our gliders also don't have unlimited expanses to travel so don't get the exersize they would in the wild. That exersize effects the way they metabolize their food and effects their immune systems.

These things all do change our gliders on a physical level.

Joeys inherit a great deal of their immune system from their parents, certainly from mom's milk. So what the parents are fed will effect the joey's health as they grow.

As an example only...for better scientific purposes, a glider being tested on the BML diet should come from parents that were fed a strict BML diet. Same for a joey being fed Suncoast's diet. The parents should have been fed a strick Suncoast's diet.

(I have to say, I feel so bad for those gliders being left on a tarmack. I had one left on a tarmack for 2 hours during a Houston storm that was so bad it had planes grounded...it wasn't good)
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