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#99084 - 05/01/06 01:54 AM Mikey , Miriam & Lorna - Dr Ness DVM
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State

Just for you & your <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s - closest I could find without copyright issues -

Ness DVM


Edited by Pockets (05/01/06 01:56 AM)
_________________________
:grey: We will be known forever by the tracks we leave :grey:
http://www.marsupialsociety.org

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#99085 - 05/01/06 02:21 AM Re: Mikey , Miriam & Lorna - Dr Ness DVM [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
KattyM Offline
Serious Glideritis

Registered: 12/24/02
Posts: 9910
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Pockets, thanks! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />
_________________________
Owned by my :grey: "Eight is Enough" colony:

2003: Hiroshi (M)
2009: Herbie (M)

:rbridge:
2002-2004: Keiko (F) and baby Tomoki (M)
2009: Sammy (F), Charlie (F), Murray (M)
2010: BJ (M)
My gallery

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#99086 - 05/01/06 02:44 AM Re: Mikey , Miriam & Lorna - Dr Ness DVM [Re: ]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
You are very welcome!
_________________________
:grey: We will be known forever by the tracks we leave :grey:
http://www.marsupialsociety.org

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#99087 - 05/01/06 08:48 AM Re: Mikey , Miriam & Lorna - Dr Ness [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Anonymous
Unregistered


my vet is dr. ness...whats this for?

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#99088 - 05/01/06 09:06 AM Re: Mikey , Miriam & Lorna - Dr Ness [Re: ]
Xglider Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 11157
Loc: Tampa, FL
Hey Jen - was just wondering the same thing...lol...
_________________________
* ~ * John * ~ * Sorry store is closed at this time.. <br>
Link -> ~~ XtremeGlider ~~ Home of the original Re~set Toys! ~~ <br>
Oct 2012 update.. miss my gliders and my
glider family and think of my friends often!!!

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#99089 - 05/01/06 10:03 AM Re: Mikey , Miriam & Lorna - Dr Ness [Re: ]
Paula0442 Offline
Glider Addict

Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 3008
Loc: Williamsburg, VA & Whg, WV
Interesting read, but why???
_________________________
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming
WOOOO HOOOO, WHAT A RIDE!!!



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#99090 - 05/01/06 10:07 AM Re: Mikey , Miriam & Lorna - Dr Ness [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks, Debbie!

That's some great info. What i like about it is it entirely considers the fact that captive gliders and wild gliders have the same dietary needs. Less than 10% alotted to fruits+veggies+nuts/seeds in the diet is such a small number when you consider how much fruit/veggies are included in some diets like Darcy's and BML.

However, Debbie, could you see if you could contact the publisher of the "THE" publication I wanted you to post on here that you emailed me. That's the big tomato that I feel needs to be made public! Are we legally allowed to at least paraphrase?

Thanks, Pockets for being such a great help to GC!

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#99091 - 05/01/06 11:24 AM Re: Mikey , Miriam & Lorna - Dr Ness [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Debbie,

Thank you so very much for sharing this with us <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

*going to a cozy chair to read*

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#99092 - 05/01/06 10:11 PM Re: Mikey , Miriam & Lorna - Dr Ness [Re: ]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
Yes they do Mikey just a little less in captivity

Copyright is plastered all over this publication & I unlike some <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> websites - will not post as I do not like lawsuits!

The publisher is Saunders - An Imprint of Elsevier
Name of publication -

"Ferrets, Rabbits, & Rodents - Clinical Medicine and Surgery" - Second Edition

Article is Chapter 31 page 330- 338 & is written by
Robert D. Ness, DVM, and Rosie Booth, BVSc

I would advise your <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> veterinarian to have a look at this <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> info <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumb.gif" alt="" />


Edited by Pockets (05/01/06 10:14 PM)
_________________________
:grey: We will be known forever by the tracks we leave :grey:
http://www.marsupialsociety.org

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#99093 - 05/02/06 10:14 AM Re: Mikey , Miriam & Lorna - Dr Ness [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm not afraid of them. Can I post it?! lol. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

...or atleast paraphrase and cite the publishers and authors in a footnote? That would be legal, no? Some of the material is very relevant to each and every single member of this entire website and the truth (or atleast the contents of this scientific publication) needs to get out there, at least for everyone to evaluate themselves. It's for the good of the glider.

*waits patiently*

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#99094 - 05/02/06 11:23 AM Re: Mikey , Miriam & Lorna - Dr Ness [Re: ]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
I say go ahead - besides I'm pretty sure that it will be posted on the Glider University website soon <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/agree.gif" alt="" />

This has been going on with almost all the veterinary materials, mostly new released Australian publications I have referred to on GC thru the years.

When I obtain new information about <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s I usually pop in to post a bit about it & provide a link to more info & then let others argue about it -

The soy issue has been around for a very long time - 'People - look at the zoological nutrition links & zoo nutritionists info, talk with them (if possible) & always talk with your veterinarian as they are learning also!

Most all the diet items we provide, in some shape or form have soy in them - I will list them for future reference - I have listed them here before & I think most will be surprised!

I will continue to obtain reliable & factual information to help assist our <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s in captivity & I march to no ones drum other than our <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s


Edited by Pockets (05/02/06 11:51 AM)

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#99095 - 05/02/06 01:09 PM Re: Mikey , Miriam & Lorna - Dr Ness [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Anonymous
Unregistered


OK, well, there's a section in that article (posted in the first post of this thread) that was ommited I think (or it may be a different version, or the section I have may be a preface or something <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" /> ) and I assumed perhaps it was a different article altogether, but reading the "other article" (i.e. the big tomato) I just realized it's the same publication. Therefore, Pockets has already cited the publisher.

If anyone is going to get in trouble for copyright laws I'll take the heap. I've attached a section of the "hot tomato".

So allow me to point out the paragraph that caught my attention the most. After you get over the fact that the publication actually encourages the use of catfood as a protein source (that Moorie sure did receive a lot of slack for feeding catfood when she first came on the boards when all along according to this publication, she did nothing wrong, and perhaps Caroline Macpherson and Dr. Delaney-Johnson DVM weren't so outdated afterall), scroll down to the section on CAPTIVE diets.

This publication is not the first to make that claim.

I suppose it's not too crazy of bombshell as I may have made it out to be, but for a moment consider what it is saying. How many of us use fruit/veggie-based captive glider diets (i.e. BML or any of the variations of it, Darcy's, etc)? How many "professionals" who are in a position to be called "professionals" will it take before we begin to consider questioning some of our current practices, particularly in the realm of captive glider diets? I know we've all seen the debates on a more "natural" diet with elements of a wild glider diet, and the consensus is that it's difficult for the average North American to create those diets... well, then why have we brought them here in the first place? Pockets, as well as others have managed to do it. If it's so difficult to accomodate such things, is it morally right to captivate them here, just as it is morally right to keep a koala bear and have it feed from lettuce and other readily available veggies/foods because eucalyptus leaves simply aren't an option for the average North American? Isn't that a selfish state of mind? Why have we sacrificed ultimate nutrition for convenience? Maybe we should start making that extra effort to improve our glider diets to at least justify the act of bringing these guys to our continent to love while ensuring they are in proper care (diet included).

How many credible publications and professionals will we continue to dismiss as "outdated", "their opinion", "falacious", "less informed", "flaming/bashing"?

*watches the mods watching this thread like a hawk* <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />


Attachments
566493-Saturday,April29,2006(2).JPG (40 downloads)


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#99096 - 05/02/06 01:53 PM Re: Mikey , Miriam & Lorna - Dr Ness [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Mikey, do you happen to have the full article in front of you? I think I could see a little number after the second sentance in the captive diet section about limited amounts of fruits and veggies and was just curious as whether there was a footnote going into more detail about that or a link to another source.

Also, is this an excerpt from the publication that Pockets listed a few posts up? or from a completely different source?

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanx.gif" alt="" />

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#99097 - 05/02/06 02:11 PM Re: Mikey , Miriam & Lorna - Dr Ness [Re: ]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ummm I don't have the footnote, but Pockets does. Yes, it's the same one Pockets cited. Initially, I thought they were two different publications because it was missing the "paragraph".

Mikey <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dance.gif" alt="" />

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#99098 - 05/02/06 06:46 PM Re: Mikey , Miriam & Lorna - Dr Ness [Re: ]
Pockets Offline
Glider Slave

Registered: 01/02/00
Posts: 2092
Loc: Lone Star State
It refers to Nagy KA, Suckling. Field energetics and water balance of sugar gliders, Petaurus breviceps (Marsupialia:Petauridae). Aust J Zool 1985; 33:683

Mikey
(9) reference is - Johnson-Delaney CA: The marsupial pet: sugar gliders, exotic-possums and wallabies. Proceedings of the North American Veterinary Conference 1998, pp 329-339

Leadbeater's is also included in this article (but wasn't posted) & should be 50% of diet

The 'BML' is just a modified Leadbeater's mixture, the BML total diet is not.
My 'PML' is also a modified Leadbeater's mixture - but folks this is only a part of our <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" />'s required captive diet
_________________________
:grey: We will be known forever by the tracks we leave :grey:
http://www.marsupialsociety.org

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#99099 - 05/02/06 08:40 PM Re: Mikey , Miriam & Lorna - Dr Ness [Re: Devil_Bunny_Girl]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I dunno. I've been searching high and low for a diet specific study on the sugar glider that involves the exact percentages of what they eat seasonaly. Problem is is that our glider don't require the exact amounts because they don't require the exact amounts because of domestication, but it would atleast give us a better idea. I've found a couple of good starts that end up being empty promises LOL. I'm sure its out there and someone knows about it, but I like to reasearch this for my own personal knowlage because I feel it makes me a better care taker. I really do feel that they eat vastly more protien then what is lead on to be because of the studies that I have found. They really aren't gung-ho about the sap, its just a," Oooh yummy" to my understanding and when they are digging the heck out nof the tree, they are usualy after the bugs that live under the bark that feed on the sap.

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