(clarification)Peggy, Dr. Antinoff is a she, you know she is in the Houston area.

Clarification, Peggy.

I think that what Nicole is saying is that Dr. Antinoff can call Nicole's vet in order to speak with a vet who has seen a wiggle baby in person. As - Nicole's vet has seen a wiggle baby.

Has there been any thought to the fact that this could be a form of Parkinsons or other anomalies that cause tremors?

personally i think if some tests are made on these wiggly babies it would reveal something. i dont think waiting to do a necropsy is all that is needed.

regards,
nancy in fl/detroit

I'm confused by this. If your vet has seen a wiggle baby in person, then what was your vet's response to the condition? How is a vet who has only seen a video offering the first ever official response to this condition if your vet has seen the glider(s) in person?

Val, my vet hasn't seen them in person yet. They're babies. I want to bring them in so that she can see them and then call and consult with Dr. Antinoff. Since Dr. Antinoff only has videos to go off of then I figured between her experience and knowledge and MY vet's in-person, hands-on encounter with the joeys then they can come up with a more conclusive diagnosis.

As I stated before, this is the FIRST email I've gotten from Dr. Antinoff, but it won't be the lest. In response to this email I wrote her back and, among other things, I asked if a cat scan or MRI might be able to determine if it's CH. I also asked if it's at all possible for it to be something non-genetic(more specifically, toxoplasmosis). She usually doesn't work on the weekends, so I probably won't get a response back until Monday.

BTW, if my words are going to be continually be torn apart(and in some cases twisted) then I'll just stop posting. The only reason I'm posting the responses is so that you guys can have the words of a vet(since my research wasn't considered legit) to go off of. I'm certainly not posting for my OWN benefit. :\

We need you to keep posting Nicole. I understand your frustration with the way some people are picking your words apart just to be picking, but there are others of us here who are truly interested and want to know what is going on with the progression of these babies and the ongoing process to try to determine what is causing it. Please don't quit posting because some people are losing site of the true issue.

What makes you think that Dr.Antinoff has never been involved with or treated this problem?

She gets involved with gliders and vets everywhere to help...she is a very caring person. since it seems to be difficult for some of the glider people to work together and put the glider first...perhaps it would be better if I keep Dr. Antinoff out of it...and let the "want to be vets solve the problem".

Mary

Nicole, Let it roll off your back hun. For the good of the glider! I think it would be awesome for your vet to consult with Dr. Antinoff, now we are getting somewhere. And Peggy the whole getting blood thing, most of the time my vet who is very experienced cannot get enough blood from my gliders for cbc and chem profile.(gliders are sedated for this) How much is going to be required for this test? And yes my vet has consulted with Tim on blood draws.

Mary, that's why I said I'd stop posting if people can't stop picking words apart and twisting them.

I think that people seem to forget that there are OTHER people out there with gliders with this condition. My joeys are the newest wiggle babies are just that: JOEYS. They aren't even big enough for a decent blood sample yet! And yet I seem to be a horrible owner because I haven't taken my joeys and had my vet run a bunch of blood tests on them yet...

Perhaps we should be asking Adri and Beth what THEIR vets have to say about this issue since their gliders are ADULTS and mine are just joeys.

I get called a bad owner and accused of not wanting to take my gliders to a vet and accused of thinking I'm better then a vet just because I do research and I'm asked to get a vet'S opinion. So, I get an EXPERT glider vet's opinion and yet that's still not good enough?!

I'm sorry, but some people just won't be satisfied unless it's THEIR vet that does the diagnoses... If you're one of those people then please just do us all a favor and quite posting so that you aren't going to ruin the learning experience for everyone else.

Back to the matter at hand. you just cleared a whole lot up with your above post I thought you had more affected gliders other than these 2 joeys.
Adri has already said she will put her glider through the testing so I will be anxiously following her and her gliders journey as answers are sought(and I pray found) and tests are done!

Nicole has three wiggle babies (all from the same parents). Shimmer, who is 3 months old now and the two joeys who are roughly 3 weeks.

Is that correct Nicole?
just trying to keep it all straight

Cora -
General anesthesia is required for achieving adequate restraint for blood collection.The volume of blood that can be safely collected is up to 1% of the body weight -
Rosemary Booth

I understand that Pockets BUT my vet has yet to be able to obtain that much (0.5cc). Thanks for4 your input!

Hook is two years old but he is not much different than a joey in weight, he only weighs 67g. When he was taken in to be neutered at 5 months my vet Dr. Payne stated he would not put him under as he was unsure he would make it out as to the severity of his neurological condition. Upon further examination he discovered that Hook was also sterile and he had no testicular development at all. If you notice in the video he never developed a bald spot.

When Peggy contacted me about testing I immediately said YES only if he would not be harmed. He is bigger now than he was then so maybe it is possible. I don't really know. As to what Dr. Payne thought at the time? He had never seen another glider like him, given the evaluation at the time he felt it was genetic and more than likely the product of inbreeding as similar situations had occurred in different species. He also estimated Hook would not live past the age of one...thankfully Hook turned 2 years old this August.

Could someone please clear this up for me? I'm a little confused why Toxoplasmosis is a possibly a trigger for this "wiggle syndrome". From what I've learned in school Toxoplasmosis is a parasite that mainly effects cats and humans but can be passed on by eating infected meat, transmission from mother to fetus or eating the feces of an infected cat? And if the neurological damage is from Toxoplasmosis then the mother of the joeys would have the parasites as well, and if so then can't a blood sample can be taken from her?

Erich it is a known fact that marsupials are also highly susceptible to Toxopalsmosis and since the neurological symptoms caused by Toxo can be similar to what we are seeing in these gliders Dr. Tristan wanted to have them tested to rule it out. It is also my understanding that the tests that were going to be run were not exclusive to Toxo but that was one of the things that would be determined. HTH

The amount of blood that is required for the IgG & IgM is 50-100 Micro litres of blood. A very small amount.

And yes, Nicole does have a three month old Shimmer who is the older siblings to the two new boys she has. It was Shimmer that was going to go in for the blood work first before Nicole changed her mind.

Ahh okay thanks for clearing that up Adri, My bio-class didn't discuss Marsupials as much as I'd like to have. And if its such a small amount why not have Shimmer tested? Considering how much we can learn from it.

~Erich

In house lab testing tends to use up a LOT more blood or plasma for the tests, when you do send out to laboratory they can do so very much more with MUCH less. When a situation like this arises clinics can (and often times will) draw in the clinic and send it out for the diagnostic testing. This tends to cost a lot more than in house testing, but you have a better shot of getting more tests run, and also more accuracy.

It would be very interesting to see blood work from a joey then also bloodwork from the adult stage of that same joey. We have a unique opportunity to do this with these young joeys - full anesthesia is not necessary to collect the blood, just enough to make them drowsy so they dont move. Proper restraint can be had with a very relaxed glider. It would also be very nice to compare adult blood of normal gliders to Hook and to another glider showing these symptoms obviously so we can see what normal levels would be - and also to have compare contrast.

But ultimately like Karen said, its not our choice, its the owners choice.

Has anyone decided for sure they are or are not willing to get the blood taken? Anyone who is for sure willing to do this - have you thought of a date for getting it done?

I have been following all the threads on the Wiggle babies from the very start.

As I see it... without proper testing to give a definative diagnoses... then all these threads seems to imply is spectulation as to cause.

The other thing I would like to point out... there has been a lot of breeding with the Leucistic over the years with many of them to first cousins or closer. To this date I do not know of any wiggle symptoms in any of those offspring from close inbreedings in the Leucistic lineages.

My guess is.. we have had thousands of babies born from owners here on GC. So with only a slight handfull of wiggle offspring it appears that this illness would not be genetic as I feel we would have seen many more babies with the wiggle symptoms if this was a genetic disorder within the WF lineages.

There are many illnessness which are able to mimic each other... so without proper medical testing to determine positive identification there is no way to determine positivly the cause of the wiggle symdrome.

Conclusion: We know nothing more than we did several years ago when these wiggle babies were born. Testing was suggested back then and to my knowledge was not done with diagnoses being derived from only talk or internet access which has only resulted in speculation as to cause of the Wiggle Baby Sym.

Please understand.... I am very sympathetic to these owners and their sick babies. It has to be heartbreaking for them not to know the true cause of what their babies are afflicted with as I can honestly say I would be also.

So... for now I will continue to follow the little Wiggle Babies and pray that a diagnoses will eventually be medicaly determined.

EXCELLENT post Judie!!

Has anyone seen the 'stargazing' defect in corn snakes?

It looks very similar to this 'wiggle' problem.... I have a link if anyone wants it.

Here is the description:
Stargazer is a gene that causes the animal to appear to be star gazing. Stargazing is a deviation in the bodys balance, as a result of which the animals makes uncontrolled movements. It is made worse in stressful situations. They move quite normally on a flat surface, but if they raise their heads above the surface or try to follow movement quickly they have very uncontrolled movements. The animals have great difficulty if they are laid on their back, it takes them some time to realise they are upside down before attempting to correct themselves. Also they can take several attempts to seize their prey.

Omg! I was in the pet store last week and saw one of the baby corn snakes doing exactly that! I had no idea what was wrong with it. I was recording it at the time, then I noticed that there was something wrong with it, so I stopped. I asked one of the workers to come check it out, but by the time they got there, the snake had went back under the rock. They just said they would "keep an eye on it". Thanks for posting this!

As much as I HATE snakes, among a few other animals/creatures, that is terribly sad. No matter how much I LOATHE an animal, I would never wish something those terrible on it.

Ive been trying to keep up with this thread and I just had to post here that I agree with you that the gliders should be registered. As far as how they look at Nicole, I would suggest using the comment section to explain briefly the mistake, and that this mistake is actually going to help in the research of this gene. I think its safe to say that for the most part, anyone and everyone that uses the database, who would be looking up these specific gliders, either frequents these forums where this is discussed, or has spoken to her personally and knows most of the situation. If not, the comment section can take care of that. Even linked back to a page that shows what happened.

I list all of my gliders in The pet glider, and I take full advantage of the comments section. Its there to be used for any explanation of what you feel people need to know about the glider.

If I didnt say it in my rant Ill say it now, GREAT idea to add them!

My computer's working as well as ever! (Considering I'm not on mine at all... eh. x_x)



I strongly agree with this.

Almost 3 hours ago.. (After having to make a temp account to get on, after getting onto a more functioning computer.. Still haven't resolved account issues.) I stumbled upon this thread.. always want to know what's going on if at all possible. I saw quite a few names on there I know well. Obviously I was VERY shocked, especially since one of them is my own. I went through almost every single post in this thread and believe me I've got a migraine. I'm sorry I'm late in posting this.. Computer issues, electric issues, you name it.. but I finally found this and I think it needs to be edited.
I don't think we can count on everyone to read the whole thread as I did, many read the first page, IF not just the first post and absolutely FREAK. (Telling people not to panic is usually the first way to get them to do just that.. maybe it's just my opinion and NO offense meant..! But.. I think that's just a big trigger in making people really anxious. Many people also instantly want to do what they're told not to, depending on the situation so..)

I think the first post needs to be edited or have a disclaimer.. saying that this is all speculation, don't go out and neuter all your gliders, that we still have yet to do research(as in REAL GENETIC TESTING) and so on..

It's fine and dandy to warn people, make people aware.. [censored] I'm not inbreeding, my pair's COI is one of the lowest I've seen considering their coloring.. but I don't plan to get my boy neutered because of this. As far as I'm concerned my pair aren't inbreeding and are VERY much not related from what I can tell. (Granted I'll admit I'm still very new to all of this and having a migraine isn't helping me check up on stuff.) But if they produce I will make the new parents aware of the situation, as ANY new parent should be in ANY circumstance, and tell them to chose their pairings carefully to best avoid ANY instance of inbreeding. (Which, like many said, should be done anyway.)


I guess I'm just saying.. The first post(the only thing many owners may see) is more than enough to scare someone, and much discussion has been done since and I really do think some kind of disclaimer(other than DON'T PANIC) is in order.

Maybe it's just me, I don't know.

Sorry if I'm crazy, I do hope someone understands though.





Also.. I don't think she is saying people should stay hidden or be encouraged to do so. I think she's saying that people are scared. Rightly so. Many people are new, beginners, and they do the best they can.. but like you said, accidents happen. Many many people do not understand or accept that. I see way too many things on the forums..

"Oh, really? Well I sure hope he's getting neutered and you're not breeding then!"

And so on, the like.. YES, people need to be informed, but kindly doing so and telling them directly what they SHOULD(or you sure HOPE they should) do or not do is kind of intimidating when you're a beginner. Like.. "Oh no, now everyone's going to think I'm stupid and just treat me like this every time I post." They could definitely have that attitude, be too scared to post and turn to a different forum... or a facebook group.

I don't know what I'm getting at, my head feels awful.. just, I guess.. I agree, any and ALL knowledge (even the awful like with the wiggle babies) is good to have for the benefit of the whole, but you have to understand people(aren't all as understanding and kind as some) are still going to be there to point fingers, place blame and harass individuals depending on the situation.


I don't know if I make sense anymore, this thread is super old, and my head hurts so.. sorry if this was a useless post. ):