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Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: gliderdad79] #351557
07/31/07 11:09 PM
07/31/07 11:09 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
Glider Addict
Carrie T  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
I started out in 2001, my first pair had a baby we named Boo Boo as he really was an accident. Cider was neutered shortly after that and we had planned on keeping Boo Boo as our own. Now neither Cider or Miss Sassy was of any line of breed, I guess it wasn't a requirement at the time.

We lost Boo Boo due to a nueter gone wrong and we lost Cider. We had a necropsy done on Cider but it was still a needle in a haystack as to what went wrong with him.

I guess now I'm sitting here with the proper lineage. I have two wfb gliders and I'm getting 2nd gen babies out of them. I really wonder what people consider the right lines ? Is it from those nasty big but reputable breeders who line breed or am I better off getting one from a flea market ? This isn't meant to be nasty or anything like that but if I after all these years still have these questions then what must it be like for a newbie. I hear all the time don't breed if you buy from a pet store but then if you are buying from a pet store don't you expect the best ? Don't breed if you don't know the lineage but in reality it's either the line breeders or the flea markets. Okay off my soapbox lol Oh yeah and look at the membership here right ? Remember that is a very small portion of people who actually own gliders. Just things I'm sure we all think about.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: gliderdad79] #351566
07/31/07 11:19 PM
07/31/07 11:19 PM

A
AngieH
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AngieH
Unregistered
A



I am the president of Hope for Gliders, a sugar glider rescue in Texas. We have placed over 140 gliders in screened educated homes. Its very hard sometimes to let them go, sometimes we work for a very long time getting them to learn trust and to correct behavior issues they may have come here with. I wish that everyone could see the gliders here and know they each have a story to tell. Sometimes when I hold them I wonder if the person who breed them knows what all they have been through, some are very neglected and have been in many many homes. Some have been abused, one was starved to death and only lived a few house after he arrived here. One glider here was put out for the trash man, thankfully he was brought here when found. I know that there are some responsible breeders out there thank goodness. But I know firsthand that some are not, and they are only seen as a way to make money. I have seen gliders being sold to young children, one was to be a pet for a toddler. frown She was surrendered her within 4 days of purchase. It hink after 4 years of doing rescue I have seen the worst but I will never get used to seeing it.
We don't have babies here often, we average about one or two babies a year to rescues coming in what are allready pregant, and we usually take in at least one orphan a year to raise. I gave up breeding long ago and am happy with just doing what I can to help the ones allready here.
We definetly need more people to help with rescue and we do need people to really think about the responsibilty of breeding. The problem with rescues in Texas, and many other states, is getting worse each year and I can't see any end to this issue. Please help us, educate new owners and please promote the neutering of males and encourage the gliders you sell to be pampered pets before parents.
If anyone would like to know more about Hope for Gliders, please visit our website. (The link is in my signature)

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #351573
07/31/07 11:23 PM
07/31/07 11:23 PM

M
Melissa2721
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Melissa2721
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M



Angie, I wish their were more people like you !

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #351579
07/31/07 11:28 PM
07/31/07 11:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
Glider Addict
Carrie T  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
For more information on Angie and her wonderful project please visit wink

Last edited by Carrie T; 07/31/07 11:46 PM. Reason: Porn shows up on that site
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #351694
08/01/07 02:31 AM
08/01/07 02:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,092
Baltimore, MD
ScootersPet Offline
Glider Slave
ScootersPet  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,092
Baltimore, MD
I have bred i had a wonderful trio and now have a wf/cg the day that a set of twins i had turned 9 weeks, and didnt have a new home to go live in is when i decided toby would get neutered. If i cant provide the absolute best homes for my guys, i dont want to breed. Halo will be getting neutered as soon as i get the money because one of their twins (im keeping one) has yet to have a prospective owner.....

I didnt read all of the above posts, so if this has been said already, im sorry....


In my opinion, the difference between mill breeders and breeders here on GC is this :

mill breeders start out large scale, they buy many animals from anywhere they can, they cram them into tiny cages, feed them low quality food (to save a buck) no toys, no beloved wheels, and leave them until they get what they want out of them :BABIES, then they sell them to whoever has money and the cycle repeats all over again, and there reason for breeding is one thing, and one thing only... MONEY! They dont care if new /potnetial owners are educated, or even have the slightest idea of where to start with caring for their new baby. they see little gliding dollar signs, not the adorable, sweet faces that we see everytime we peek into a pouch....

Respected GC breeders start out small, one or two at first, get used to the routine, the care the loving relationships and grow their "colony (not neccessarily in the same cage)" out by buying high quality, well bred, well taken care of animals, they out them in big cages, feed high quality food, give them more toys then they could dream of, 1, or 2 wheels, and play with them, interact, bond with them, and when they have babies, it is the joy of their next 2 months, the babies get played with, taken well care of, find responsible owners and have the pleasure of giving another person the special love, companionship, emotional bond of a little furry glider. They retire pairs when it is neccessary, and dont care about the money, all they want is the joy of breeding.
I have bred i had a wonderful trio and now have a wf/cg the day that a set of twins i had turned 9 weeks, and didnt have a new home to go live in is when i decided toby would get neutered. If i cant provide the absolute best homes for my guys, i dont want to breed. Halo will be getting neutered as soon as i get the money because one of their twins (im keeping one) has yet to have a prospective owner.....


I dont like comparing mill breeders to the respected breeders here on GC, and those who have not found GC yet. To me...that is an insult, but....

I'm climbing down off my soapbox now, so.... smile




Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ScootersPet] #351736
08/01/07 08:01 AM
08/01/07 08:01 AM

H
HelloSugar
Unregistered
HelloSugar
Unregistered
H



If you ever have a wfb available, I'm always a prospective new home! I live near you!

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352172
08/01/07 05:43 PM
08/01/07 05:43 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,157
Orlando, FL
GangstersMom Offline
Glider Guardian
GangstersMom  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,157
Orlando, FL
I understand completely wher everyone is coming from in not wanting newbies to breed, but there have been quite a few comments made about the fact that you have to be experienced to breed gliders. How can you gain experience in breeding, without actually breeding?


heart~*~Brandy~*~heart

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: GangstersMom] #352177
08/01/07 05:49 PM
08/01/07 05:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,157
Orlando, FL
GangstersMom Offline
Glider Guardian
GangstersMom  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,157
Orlando, FL
One other thing. I just wanted to comment that I am a first time oop grandma, and yes, the first time is scary. But I feel that I have found the perfect place in GC to come to for resources and questions. There has been so much wonderful support here, and I just feel that if a person's heart is in it, and they have the proper resources, that no one should be able to say whether they can breed or not. I am personally keeping my babies, and any in the future. But if I do eventually decide to breed to sell, it will be an informed decision. But to define that a "newbie" should not breed is not right in my opinion. I think it all depends on the person that is breeding, how mature they are, how much research they have put into it, and what kind of resources they have. That's just my personal opinion. I truly agree that there are people out there that should not breed, but some of those people have been doing it for years and years. smile

Last edited by SuggieMom2007; 08/01/07 05:53 PM.

heart~*~Brandy~*~heart

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: GangstersMom] #352192
08/01/07 06:14 PM
08/01/07 06:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
SuggieMom -You bring up some interesting points.

The first one: of course you can't gain experience in breeding without breeding. I think that it is hoped that people will gain experience in SUGGIES before breeding. To get a couple of sugar gliders, and expect them to breed right away is what is being frowned upon in the discussion.

Sugar gliders are complex animals. Without an understanding of their dietary needs, the way they behave when they are sick, their social interactions, etc - it is just not advisable to breed.

Additionally, many new glider owners have inadvertently purchased from mill breeders. I know my first one was. It is my hope that gliders from unknown or unhealthy backgrounds won't be bred. It takes a little research and a bit of knowledge to know that.

And to comment on your second point: YES! I think the term "newbie" is a misnomer - because it isn't just the NEWNESS of a person to glider ownership that makes it unwise for them to breed. It is also a question of maturity, of knowledge and willingness to obtain knowledge, etc.

Some people obtain their gliders with a sound knowledge of what they are getting into, and a willingness to keep learning.

Others obtain their gliders with very poor knowledge being given to them by a breeder who doesn't really care about the outcome.

There are very many factors that need to be considered.

I am guilty of popping into the glider world and thinking I would breed right away. I didn't know that I was given VERY wrong information from the mill breeder I bought him from. I thought, "Hey! I'm an animal lover! I have years of experience with many different animals. This will be fun!"

Fortunately I also had an open mind, a maturity-such as you mention, and a willingness to be proven wrong. By many many standards, I'm still a newbie! I guess I will always have something to learn.

God willing, I will NEVER have to learn first hand about self-mutilating, or cannibalization, or HLP, or rejection! But ... a few months ago, I didn't even know those things EXISTED. So - that's what is required by "newbies". A willingness to learn, a willingness to be proven wrong, an openness to different perspectives.

If that learning takes you months or years is really not anyone else's call.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ValkyrieMome] #352208
08/01/07 06:31 PM
08/01/07 06:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,157
Orlando, FL
GangstersMom Offline
Glider Guardian
GangstersMom  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,157
Orlando, FL
Thank you ValkyrieMome! That was very well put. I think it summed up this entire discussion.

"A willingness to learn, a willingness to be proven wrong, an openness to different perspectives."

Part of me wanted to be offended when I first started reading this thread. But it took me about two pages to realize that, no one was talking about "me".
I will be the first to admit that I will always have questions. And that there will always be new resources out there to take advantage of, and there will always be new knowledge to gain. But through love for my gliders, the experiences they bring me, and the friends that I have made here, I know that I will be successful in the care of my gliders and their offspring.
mlove

Last edited by SuggieMom2007; 08/01/07 06:34 PM.

heart~*~Brandy~*~heart

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: GangstersMom] #352239
08/01/07 07:31 PM
08/01/07 07:31 PM

L
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered
LindsayAnnG
Unregistered
L



suggiemom2007, i when i personally spoke of "newbies" not breeding, i didnt mean people who are new to breeding, i meant people who are new to suggies in general. I meant that there are people out there who get their first ever sugar glider and hardly know anything about them and all of a sudden are asking about breeding. I dont mean that newbies to breeding shouldnt breed.. if that were the case - there would never be any new breeders.

Val always has a way for putting what i'm thinking into a much better and more thought out post.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352260
08/01/07 08:17 PM
08/01/07 08:17 PM

T
TracyLynn
Unregistered
TracyLynn
Unregistered
T



I agree that there is alot to consider when you talk about breeding - Not only concerning the owner's knowledge & maturity, but their schedule, flexability & lifestyle. I adopted my first pair of gliders as rehomes. I had been around gliders for 2+ years before I made the decision to get my own AND I wanted rescues/rehomes, ones that needed a forever home & second chance. I NEVER PLANNED ON HAVING JOEYS. I have adopted rescue/rehomes 5 times now with the male neutered before they came to me, or within a week of arriving. All but one of those adoptions has arrived with joeys IP or just out of pouch. I have been blessed with 2 sets of twins and 1 single little girl and my new rescue has twins IP. I worry constantly about the babies, will they canabalize, will they reject, will I be able to keep up with handfeeding if needed? I know I will deal with whatever they throw at me, but it is ALOT to think about and not something to be undertaken lightly. I also do not have the worry about finding homes for my joeys. They are all staying with me as family colonies. I will have three families of 4, a colony of 8 and when the new twins arrive, a family of 5. The male I just got on Monday is getting fixed on Thursday, and my only male joey is getting fixed in September when he is old enough. Even though I didn't plan on joeys, they will stay with me forever and the cycle of breeding for the parents is ending and for the joeys, it will never begin.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352262
08/01/07 08:24 PM
08/01/07 08:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
Originally Posted By: LindsayAnnG
Val always has a way for putting what i'm thinking into a much better and more thought out post.


Actually, Lindsay, that might be more true than many people think! They don't know that you and I talk, and are frequently so much in agreement it is scary! I just have that Irish "gift of gab" -- strange, since I'm not Irish, I'm Welsh!


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Carrie T] #352452
08/02/07 05:43 AM
08/02/07 05:43 AM

H
HelloSugar
Unregistered
HelloSugar
Unregistered
H



Originally Posted By: Carrie T

We lost Boo Boo due to a nueter gone wrong.


Precisely why I will NEVER nueter! Yup, I said never! I know there will be a lot of people disagreeing with me on this, and that's okay. This is MY opinion and I'm entitled to it as much as everyone else is entitled to theirs.

Frankly, if you don't want your gliders to breed, don't keep males and females together. It's that simple. But to remove a living creature's body part because YOU don't want it to behave naturally, is selfish. It's forced mutilation.

We try to give our gliders the best in cages, the best in toys, the best diet - to provide the nutrition that's as close to nature as possible, then we go chopping off their genitals? That's not very natural.

If we can't handle the task of owning an animal, we shouldn't own one. But it's not okay to mutilate a living creature because we can't handle one of it's natural behaviors (mating). If we can't handle an animal doing what an animal is supposed to do, then we don't deserve to own it.

Does the glider know the difference? Maybe it does and maybe it doesn't. That's not the point. The point is it's not our right to tailor the animal's body to fit our own selfish agenda. It's sick to me. If you don't want your animal to breed, don't keep males and females together. It's not rocket science.

Neutering is completely unnecessary. Not to mention that there's always the risk that the pet won't wake up from anesthesia or something will go wrong and it could die. This is not the norm, but it IS a risk, a risk that could be 100% avoided.

Reminds me of the whole frontal lobotomy thing: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5014080

Anyhow, that's my opinion though I know many will disagree.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352477
08/02/07 08:58 AM
08/02/07 08:58 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
Not only can you not keep males with females if you don't want them to breed, you can't keep males together. In such small areas and "forced" colonies they will rape each other or fight for dominance and can kill each other. That isn't very natural either. In the wild gliders have acres to roam. I don't know anyone here who can provide that.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352505
08/02/07 10:13 AM
08/02/07 10:13 AM

W
WannaBeMom
Unregistered
WannaBeMom
Unregistered
W



While trying to keep all opinions in clear sight, I feel it necessary to comment.

I feel as a person who has taken on the desire, and responsibility, to own a pet, especially a kind of pet that has such special needs as a Glider, then I as that pet owner have one obligation and that is to preserve the QUALITY OF LIFE for my Glider(s).

Yes, in some people’s opinions, neutering is like playing a sort of God, altering our pet for our own selfish reasons…However, I ask you, what is more selfish that having to confine an “intact” male to a life of solitude? Whether housed next to other gliders or allowed playtime or whatever…I honestly cannot think of anything more…UNNATURAL.

Gliders are social creatures, virtually above all else, and if choosing to own one, or many, I feel that this is what should be considered first and foremost as important. If we are not capable, or prepared to take on such great responsibilities as aiding in the process of breeding, then we should, as a responsibility to our pets, have them neutered to control such outcomes and at the same time, allow them the luxury of living continually with their partner(s) and/or families.

I just think that each persons situation may be different, and as stated previously, each of those people are entitled to their opinions. Thank you for hearing mine.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352537
08/02/07 11:45 AM
08/02/07 11:45 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
Shannon, I couldn't agree with you more! That was exactly the point I was trying to make. smile



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352542
08/02/07 11:53 AM
08/02/07 11:53 AM

W
WannaBeMom
Unregistered
WannaBeMom
Unregistered
W



Hallelujah!

I mean...mating is a natural instinct...but socializing is WHO THEY ARE. It makes up their entire personality.

Sacrificing one for the necessity of the other seems...obvious.

Again, to each their own I suppose. But thanks for letting me know I was not out to lunch!

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352544
08/02/07 11:56 AM
08/02/07 11:56 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
Nope, not at all. I got a retired breeder who could not be in with an intact male for her own health per my contract with the breeder. She was pulling joeys. I tried to intro her to my 2 females, but it wouldn't work. I bought a sterile male and had him neutered (just in case) and they are now together happily. Cobalt was 6 months oop at the time of his operation and it didn't even phase him. He never even bothered the neuter site.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352546
08/02/07 12:00 PM
08/02/07 12:00 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
Also, not every pet owner is responsible enought to separate males from females to prevent breeding, which is why we have animals in rescues, shelters, the streets. I would rather mutilate one animal to prevent thousands of homeless animals!

Did you know that 1 male suggie can create 3,000 descendants in 5 years? That is based on each male having 4 males per year. They can actually have many more than that. Not to mention that they will have female joeys as well. If the irresponsible people don't separate their gliders, look at how many will end up in rescues.

Also, some animals will die if they aren't fixed and don't breed. Female ferrets will bleed to death if they aren't bred and they go into heat.

Not to mention the mess of many females when they go into heat.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352550
08/02/07 12:04 PM
08/02/07 12:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
In addition, to add to the "whether or not to neuter" discussion:

It has been proven time and time again in most mammals kept as companion animals - males that are neutered, and females that are spayed (where possible. Not in gliders) live LONGER, HEALTHIER lives in captivity.

If you really want something natural - don't keep pets.

However, if you *DO* keep pets, we have the ability to extend the life-expectancy that they would have in the wild. One of the ways we can do this is to neuter, which alters aggressive, territorial behaviors - which serve no purpose in a domestic animal. Additionally, the breeding hormones which occur in animals kept domestically and NOT bred can cause many kinds of cancer, in addition to stress on the animals.

We are NOT forcing mutilation on animals merely to suit a selfish agenda.

We have CHOSEN to take these animals from their natural habitat. It is our *responsibility* to see that these animals have the best life available to them in captivity. We cannot allow them to breed at will. They would not do this in the wild - the females are not confined to a small area with the males in the wild. We have a responsibility to control the domestic population, to avoid in-breeding, and to reduce the purchase by people who cannot provide the best care for the animals.

The way those assurances are made in a domestic population is via neutering. To do anything OTHER than neuter is, in my opinion, the selfish action here.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ValkyrieMome] #352552
08/02/07 12:08 PM
08/02/07 12:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,579
Sherman, Texas
MizValorie Offline
Glider Addict
MizValorie  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,579
Sherman, Texas
Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
We have CHOSEN to take these animals from their natural habitat. It is our *responsibility* to see that these animals have the best life available to them in captivity. We cannot allow them to breed at will. They would not do this in the wild - the females are not confined to a small area with the males in the wild. We have a responsibility to control the domestic population, to avoid in-breeding, and to reduce the purchase by people who cannot provide the best care for the animals.

The way those assurances are made in a domestic population is via neutering. To do anything OTHER than neuter is, in my opinion, the selfish action here.


AMEN!!!!!!!!!!


Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: MizValorie] #352575
08/02/07 12:34 PM
08/02/07 12:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,725
Upstate NY
glidergrl1513 Offline
Serious Glideritis
glidergrl1513  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,725
Upstate NY
clap Alden you have such a way with words. I always try to tell people just that. It really is our responsibility to give pets the best life possible, as we are responsible for their LIVES.

I do not see neutering as "mutilating". If it's done by a good vet, it will be done as safely as possible and under a sterile environment. Some vets will do it by laser now (which is how my boy got neutered) which is very safe.

While it is true that some gliders are unfortunate and die from neuters, think of how many gliders are unfortunate enough to be born to a mill breeder, sold at a flea market, passed from home to home being fed hamster food and bologna, ultimately dying from neglect or abuse. It's say the pros greatly outweigh the cons here. As awful as it may be to the one glider who lost his life due to a neuter gone wrong, think of all the other gliders who must suffer for their entire lives and will just die anyway, a slow painful death, never knowing a loving hand or even a suitable cage.

Sure, you could keep males separate from females, that's obviously a fool proof way to keep from having joeys, but what about the poor males who don't get a buddy? Some will be able to get along with other males, true, but most won't. Especially with females and other gliders in the same house, the chances are usually pretty slim that they will get along with another male. If you do choose to put two intact males together anyway, what if they fight? Is it fair for two gliders to die needlessly from a vicious fight, because you refused to have them neutered? Of course not.




With the breeding, in my post I wanted to know why everyone wanted to just jump right into breeding right away. Of course joeys would be fun to have around, but why not enjoy the gliders you have? I hate it that new glider owners are so anxious to hurry up and get a breeding pair. Are your adults not good enough for you?

I firmly believe that they need to have some first-hand experience with glider ownership before even considering breeding gliders. A couple months is nowhere near enough time. I got my first gliders, thinking I wanted to breed, but luckily they never did. I would not have been ready at all. Now I do not want to breed at all, I could never do so in good concience with all the unwanted gliders out there.

I just wish that people would put more thought into it. Rehomes, rescues, pet shops gliders, or mill-bred gliders should never be bred under any circumstances. Unfortunately, it seems that the owners of those gliders are the ones who want to go ahead and breed right away, for the most part. Of course some of it is that they just don't know, they were given poor informations, or none at all. But then experienced owners try to give them advice and valid points to think about, and they refuse to listen.

It's sad that pets can't be loved by some for just being pets. My gliders will never be bred, especially since I don't know the backgrounds on any of them. I'm more than happy with them just as pets, they do not need to have babies to make it better. If someone thinks that they will make money off of them, why in the world would they spend the money in the first place? I just don't understand WHY so many people feel that sugar glider should be bred, even after we have tried educating them.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: glidergrl1513] #352596
08/02/07 01:08 PM
08/02/07 01:08 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
Glider Addict
Carrie T  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Yes I did lose Boo Boo and it hurt deeply. He wasn't my baby as he bonded with my son and husband while I was in another state taking care of family business. I can't imagine though that he should be an excuse for not neutering. Instead we should look closely at the person doing the procedure. My other couple live happily together because Catcher was neutered. My other choice besides mutilating Catcher was to force Sassy to have back to back babies and put her or her newborn joeys at risk ? I don't think so. If we had this attitude towards our cats and dogs we'd really have a mess. It's already a very sad situation with them, just ask any vet or Humane Sociaty.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Carrie T] #352624
08/02/07 01:56 PM
08/02/07 01:56 PM

H
HelloSugar
Unregistered
HelloSugar
Unregistered
H



I certainly respect everyone's opinions. I know that everything we do, we do with our gliders' best interest in mind. I do stand firmly behind my opinion. My pets will never be put through what I consider horrible mutilation for my own selfish agenda. At the same time, my stand on not neutering will NEVER cause me to be a glider mill, or even a large scale breeder.

I agree with you all on so many points here, that we need to control the domestic population, and to provide our gliders with the best possible life. I also see that this can be done without nuetering. Leaving a male intact does not cause a him to have a lower quality of life. In my opinion, it affords him the right to remain as he was created, natural. I just don't feel like my name is God, and so if we couldn't keep the population down without altering the natural state of the animal, then perhaps we shouldn't have CHOSEN to take them from the wild to begin with.

I don't think that we have so many rescues because people don't neuter, I think it's more due to the mills and even large scale breeders. Mass production is the culprit. If we only had hobby breeders, I think the numbers of captive gliders would be dramatically lower than what we have now, and rescues wouldn't be this big issue that it is today.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352625
08/02/07 01:58 PM
08/02/07 01:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
I beg to differ.

1 male glider lets say he has 4 babies a year look what happens in lets say just 5 yrs of breeding

1x4= 4 add babies and dad 4+1= 5 at end of yr 1 (5)
5x4= 20 add babies and dads 20+5=25 at end of yr 2 (25)
25x4= 100 add babies and dads 100+25=125 at end of yr 3 (125)
125x4= 500 add babies and dads 500+125=625 at end of yr 4 (625)
625x4=2500 add babies and dads 2500+625=3125 at end of yr 5 (3125)

*Thanks to Cyndiekb for that info*



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: Carrie T] #352641
08/02/07 02:20 PM
08/02/07 02:20 PM

K
Kathryn
Unregistered
Kathryn
Unregistered
K



Back on topic:

I wasn't going to comment in this thread... but I have a tiny something to throw in, take it at face value.

This whole breeding gliders who don't have multi generation pedigrees.

For the original breeders out there... did yours come with a multi generation pedigree? I know that's a statement so full of holes its not even funny! But seriously... There is a grouping of breeders who started keeping records.... So are we only to breed those gliders?? Never introducing new blood into those lines? If there is new blood out there. Never breeding any other gliders? How would new lines form? Shouldn't new breeders start keeping records of their own? How else would gliders develop pedigree's?

I'm under the impression that we all should go to an ESTABLISHED breeder who is keeping records who has established lines.... and buy gliders, who are pretty much related to everyone else's gliders! And start our own breeding program this way. hmmmmm. I remember someone trying desperately to find a lion who was not related to hers who had a pedigree for breeding... Not an easy find. They were all related! hmmmm.

Now, I have a boy from Texas, and two girls from AZ. Totally dif colors. What are the odds that they are related??? I'm putting my money on not at all, their facial structures are different. I think I'm pretty safe. so does this mean that since they don't have pedigrees, that I should not let them breed, cause they were not purchased from an established breeder? Or because I am fairly new to gliders?

I don't plan on setting up a breeding program, but I do think I'll let them have a family. Is this wrong? If I were to let them have a couple more joeys or for a select friend or family member before I fix my boy, is that wrong?

Or should I fix him and find gliders with pedigrees and let them have a family?

Sorry, this ended up being a lot longer than I intended... but I just keep seeing those pedigree posts and while I get it... it gets me to a degree.

I know that careless inbreeding is the end result in most cases, but at some point you have to open your minds and make room for those of us who are using common sense when making our decisions. Just pleading my case. lol

Last edited by Kathryn; 08/02/07 02:21 PM.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352647
08/02/07 02:25 PM
08/02/07 02:25 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
It's not that they need a "pedigree". When you breed gliders with unknown backgrounds, you chance them being related or having medical issues (genetic). Why would you want to risk that? And yes, with the lion example, that's true but only because a true lion is hard to find. Most are descended from Matthew.

Also, as far as rescues and rehomes go, these should not be bred because they've already had enough stress in their lives. They should be allowed to be happy in a home that loves them for being gliders, not for the joeys they're going to make.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: ] #352655
08/02/07 02:40 PM
08/02/07 02:40 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
Serious Glideritis
SugarBlossoms  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
Originally Posted By: HelloSugar
Originally Posted By: Carrie T

We lost Boo Boo due to a nueter gone wrong.


Precisely why I will NEVER nueter! Yup, I said never! I know there will be a lot of people disagreeing with me on this, and that's okay. This is MY opinion and I'm entitled to it as much as everyone else is entitled to theirs.

Frankly, if you don't want your gliders to breed, don't keep males and females together. It's that simple. But to remove a living creature's body part because YOU don't want it to behave naturally, is selfish. It's forced mutilation.

We try to give our gliders the best in cages, the best in toys, the best diet - to provide the nutrition that's as close to nature as possible, then we go chopping off their genitals? That's not very natural.

If we can't handle the task of owning an animal, we shouldn't own one. But it's not okay to mutilate a living creature because we can't handle one of it's natural behaviors (mating). If we can't handle an animal doing what an animal is supposed to do, then we don't deserve to own it.

Does the glider know the difference? Maybe it does and maybe it doesn't. That's not the point. The point is it's not our right to tailor the animal's body to fit our own selfish agenda. It's sick to me. If you don't want your animal to breed, don't keep males and females together. It's not rocket science.

Neutering is completely unnecessary. Not to mention that there's always the risk that the pet won't wake up from anesthesia or something will go wrong and it could die. This is not the norm, but it IS a risk, a risk that could be 100% avoided.



Anyhow, that's my opinion though I know many will disagree.




Is your answer then to keep a LONE glider? They can also die from self mutilation, lonliness and depression.

I said the same thing you are now about the neutering. (the part about being scared of something going wrong)

Life threw us a curveball, I won't go into detail, most know the story but we almost lost our female to that thinking. She was losing her joeys, becoming depressed, grieving and losing weight.

What should we have done? Take her away from her life mate and watch her die from more depression and lonliness?

I talked to people here on GC that helped me through the process of finding the best vet around here and getting him neutered. He was neutered in March while yet 2 more joeys were IP. NOT ONE SINGLE PROBLEM. NONE. He kept his poms, the surgery went smooth and he was back to normal about the time he got back home other than sleepy. They had the joeys and for the first time, they raised them.

We now have handsome adorable twin boys now and their mama was alive to raise them and now NO worries about her having anymore joeys. Those two love eachother more than a lot of humans can love eachother. You would have to see them to understand my meaning. No way could I have separated them, they both would have been dead within months. I'd have bet on it.

My first boy had surgery today on his mouth. He may need to have his jaw wired. Is that cruel? NO. To me it's "Thank God for the vets with the knowledge to save my gliders" cause in the wild, he would have died soon.

Gliders only live an average of 5 to 7 years in the wild, lots don't make it that far. Our gliders can live 15 PLUS years. We are doing SOMETHING right!


We can't get the twins neutered right now so instead we bought them another cage. They will live together forever with no females around.


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? [Re: princessmegi] #352656
08/02/07 02:40 PM
08/02/07 02:40 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,579
Sherman, Texas
MizValorie Offline
Glider Addict
MizValorie  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,579
Sherman, Texas
Originally Posted By: princessmegi

Also, as far as rescues and rehomes go, these should not be bred because they've already had enough stress in their lives. They should be allowed to be happy in a home that loves them for being gliders, not for the joeys they're going to make.


Sorry but I just want to ask one thing...If the rescues/rehomes are allowed that quality of life why on earth doesn't EVERY glider deserve this?


Valorie and our 10 fur children

RIP Mary Kate
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