OMG!! People are now getting paranoid. Please don't panic folks, just because the fur parts does NOT mean your glider is unhealthy. In all the net research and the scientific suggie/marsupial books I have read from cover to cover, I've NEVER come across such a thing. I've seen many pictures of gliders both wild and captive, when they move fur on or around the joints (especially) and in places like the armpits will seperate. I'm not saying fur quality isn't synonymous to health because it is, but no diagnosis can be made from a picture over the net!
Peggy - I have posted pictures, you said there was some degree of fur seperation, well his head was almost doubled over because he was turning himself over under himself if you see what I mean! At the end of the day, we're tired of this 'you're bad because you feed cat food' label people are putting on us. As I've said many times it's been used for 15 years (possibly alot longer than that) and we still have very few health problems - but people aren't interested in that, it's cat food and that's that. Maybe we should be looking toward the ingredients instead of the title, if we did I'm sure we'd all stop using stuff like Insectivore Fare tomorrow!
Re: Diets and Photos
[Re: ]
#269511 04/24/0711:52 AM04/24/0711:52 AM
My question is, how does the quality of the fur reflect the health of the organs under its skin? How do we know which diet is the "right" one just by looking at the fur coat? I don't mean the coloring or pouch staining from a poor diet, but the amounts of certain vitamins and minerals used in the diet being the right amount for the delicate organs.
We keep saying that the ratio of Ca:P should be 2:1, but how is it determined that it should be 2:1, not some other ratio?
Just some food for thought.
Jen
Re: Diets and Photos
[Re: ]
#269534 04/24/0712:18 PM04/24/0712:18 PM
Maybe there's some underlying stuff that I'm not aware of, but I don't see any indication on this post that there's anyone bashing any diet. I am reading it as a post where we can compare and contrast the diets a visual clues. It may not be the most scientific of surveys, but it's a start for further review.
As for determining the right diet by the fur coat...I don't think that this should be the only factor in determining the correct diet, but it may be an indicator that we could look at. diet manifests itself in many ways. You can tell overall health by fur/hair, breath, stool, etc. Animals sniff other animals' scent marks and feces to determine health, fertility, sex, etc.
I don't think anyone should jump ship on their diet based solely on this post but trading info is key to having a good overall view of these animals.
Re: Diets and Photos
[Re: ]
#269592 04/24/0701:16 PM04/24/0701:16 PM
I don't see anything offensive about this post. We are talking about fur that is separated constantly, not just when moving.
If you're happy with your diet, what's it matter what everyone else thinks? It's your gliders lives and your decision. Honestly, I don't feed cat food, and never will. This is because I've found a diet that works well for my gliders and there is no need for me to switch. If someone does like the fact that I feed Priscilla's (The Pet Glider diet) then they don't have to like it. There is no reason I should have to explain myself or my choice of diet to them. Why do you feel the need to defend yourself? If you truly believe in your diet, then why does it matter what anyone else says? Quite honestly I'm sick of the diet wars. We're never going to agree, so can we all get over ourselves and agree to disagree?!?!
I really think this is a good post for newbies to see what fur separation looks like. Can we please keep it on track now?
Last edited by princessmegi; 04/24/0701:17 PM.
"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
The ratio of 2:1 comes from the fact that every other mammal on the planet (as far as I'm aware) needs that ratio to survive. So, rightly or wrongly it is assumed that as a mammal a SG will also need a ratio of 2:1.
Leisl, that is true, it's my concern that assumptions are being made about diets by photo's - there's far more to it than that! Please, if you're concerned about your pets health then take them for a check up! I feel this is another 'lumpy jaw' issue.
And yes Princessmegi - I know that's what you're talking about, but when I posted my picture it was obvious my gliders head was bent under the body (because he was turning under himself at the time), yet still the comment was made that 'there is evidence of fur seperation'. Knowing the general feeling on here about my choice of diet, I felt there was some bias opinion there!
Re: Diets and Photos
[Re: ]
#270487 04/25/0710:45 AM04/25/0710:45 AM
I still don't see the diet bashing, what I see is people getting defensive because they are inferring diet bashing. If anything, this may have turned into "diet bashing" bashing... Maybe I am just too new at this and there are underlying currents that I just don't see. I think this has been a very informative and unbiased thread. And I, for one, am very glad to have all of this as a reference. to everyone who contributed!
Brenda 970-616-2872 Gliders: Eugene, Sandy, Seri; Bobbi, Spice; Star, Squiddi; Pearl, Pip; Petrie; Jimny, Pinocchio; Anna & Elsa Dogs: Nacho & Dory RIP my glider angels: Nynaeve, Poppy, Lan, Toffee, Zoey, Tika & Tas
My understanding of the post was to see if there was any correalation between diet and the coat appearance... I believe it was mentioned not to just run out and change your diet because you notice fur separation--this is just a hypothesis, perhaps warranting further study, and perhaps not. As we've seen gliders come in all shapes, sizes, colors--who is to say that fur separation isn't another trait? I'm no expert on chins, but they are specifically bred for characteristics of their fur--better fur quality equals a higher quality animal.
Re: Diets and Photos
[Re: Usha77]
#270521 04/25/0711:33 AM04/25/0711:33 AM
I will also agree with Usha, I thank all that contributed to this thread, I have found it usefull, and I am sure others will too. I did not see diet bashing, but more of the "diet bashing - Bashing" also. I feel we have been given a great deal of knowledge when it comes to glider diets. What fits one will not fit the other, and it's your personal choice from what you have researched.
I would not critisize someone for feeding their dog alpo, instead of Iams. So I don't think people should judge glider diets either, but I think it's great you can come to a place like this and be presented with Proven information, it just makes the choices all that much easier.
Cindy Mom to Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy & all my fuzzies! Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's. Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com
SOoooo , anywho, how about getting back to the topic and seing some more pics of suggies and what diet they're on! I know there's some proud newbies out there. Don't make me call you out!
Re: Diets and Photos
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#271262 04/26/0704:42 AM04/26/0704:42 AM
I was discussing this with my vet and I asked him, why do some of the gliders have *clumped or seperated fur* where some do not. diet... large clumping or bad seperation shows a possible lack in nutrients or vitamins.
Moorie, it seems as though you are taking this as a personal attack and show just a tad chip on your shoulder. Sorry to see that.
If you look at the quote I made earlier in this post, it said that seperation or large clumping shows a POSSIBLITY in a lack of nutrients or vitamins. I do not see it as irresponsible at all to learn ALL of the POSSIBLE visuals in trying to keep up with your gliders health.I also do not think my vet would tell me this was a possibilty in why it happens just for me to post and cause a panic. Does it always mean that your glider is not getting the proper nutrients, no, I have already said that, if your glider has clumping or seperation does it mean your glider is going to die? No, I have never stated that neither. I even posted pictures of my own gliders when they were on other diets to show the difference, that is just to show people, not to bash anyone. To make a statement of something I happen to see and to point it out is not bashing, and I am sorry you feel it is.
I am not saying if you dont switch your diet your glider is going to die, matter of fact, I have told people NOT to switch diets if their gliders are doing well on them. Just because I choose not to do the cat food diet is no different than you choosing not to feed HPW diet or any other diet, it is our personal choice.
With pictures to show the differences it just helps to show others the differences in the gliders for people to see and to learn by.
Quote:
At the end of the day, we're tired of this 'you're bad because you feed cat food' label people are putting on us.
Moorie, I Have NEVER said this. As a matter of fact if you recall, I had even posted in a thread before to people using cat foods mentioning some of the top brands that I was familiar with if someone did want to use it. I have stated that I do not agree with it and I PERSONALLY choose not to use it but just because of that does not mean I am putting a label on you or anyone else or saying you are bad.
Quote:
As for determining the right diet by the fur coat...I don't think that this should be the only factor in determining the correct diet, but it may be an indicator that we could look at. Diet manifests itself in many ways. You can tell overall health by fur/hair, breath, stool, etc. Animals sniff other animals' scent marks and feces to determine health, fertility, sex, etc
EXACTLY Leisl! When doctors examine us, they dont only look at our internal organs, they check out your hair, your skin, your nails. It is all together. When I went to the doctor once and she looked at my nails, one was curving under, she said I was lacking magnesium. Now do I go back and tell her that she is wrong or irresponsible because she told me that just by looking at my nails and not running any blood work, or do I trust that as a doctor and her many years of study, she just may know what she is talking about?
This thread is to help newbies and the rest of us learn the differences between a healthy coat and a not so healthy coat. I have already posted that you will always see some sort of seperation in movement.
Thank you all for posting pictures and joining in. We are here to learn from one another and to try to better things for our gliders. Together, I feel we can do that, as long as we dont take things personally when they are not.
As a newbie I have been intrigued by this post. I am in a situation where I adopted a very unhealthy glider a month ago who was on a mealie and whipped cream diet. I took pictures and after she has been on Priscilla's diet for a few more weeks, I plan on taking pictures again to see how they compare. Also, my two other gliders have been on SunCoast since we got them from Lisa a year ago. I just switched them to Priscilla's as well as they all need to be on the same diet if they are ever to all be cagemates. I took pictures of them as well and will be interested to see if there is any noticeable difference in a few weeks. (I have been very happy with SunCoast, but our new glider will not eat the Zookeepers.)
As it is not possible to test the health of a glider by blood work, etc., I find it interesting that there may be easily observable indicators to a glider's health. I hope this thread continues! I will post pics soon as well.
I think this thread is very informative! I have to say that a glider's appearance will show just how healthy they are internally as well as externally. A person who eats right and takes vitamins is going to have strong nails, great skin and shiny hair compared to someone who just eats fast food everyday.
Kristin :glider: Sparkles & Flower Loving Husband Christopher Proverbs 3:5,6
Re: Diets and Photos
[Re: Srlb]
#354548 08/05/0702:38 AM08/05/0702:38 AM
Here is a PIC of the food after it has been eaten..... for the new comers that are always concerned when they see this and wonder if their SG is spitting their food back out or not eating it all.
Plus a PIC of Shumway & Brauma eating some mealies.....
Re: Diets and Photos
[Re: ]
#354594 08/05/0709:29 AM08/05/0709:29 AM
Kimmy, honestly your glider looks good. If you go back to page one and look up my post I have pics of my glider Dasher. The first pic of him is the pic of him on a diet that just didnt do it for him. The second pic is after I have had him on the HPW. You can see there is a huge difference.
"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Diets and Photos
[Re: Srlb]
#355242 08/06/0708:37 AM08/06/0708:37 AM
I was discussing this with my vet and I asked him, why do some of the gliders have *clumped or seperated fur* where some do not. diet... large clumping or bad seperation shows a possible lack in nutrients or vitamins.
[quote] Moorie, it seems as though you are taking this as a personal attack and show just a tad chip on your shoulder. Sorry to see that.
There's no chip on my shoulder I can assure you, I am just fed up of seeing people panicking needlessly because such as such said this, and that happens often on this board which is why I tend to stay away from here!!!
There was a post on another forum which no doubt I'm not allowed to post, so I'll go over there and see if he'll post pictures here (or allow me to) of how a poor diet affects coat condition, and I'll think you'll see truly what poor diet can do (not just seperating over joints!!!)
Re: Diets and Photos
[Re: ]
#355355 08/06/0701:18 PM08/06/0701:18 PM
I think that the separation being discussed here is not separation over joints. It is separation of the fur all over.
"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Moorie, i would like to know what books you have read back to back becuase i have been searching out a good scientific book on glider care and nutrition both in captive AND in the wild.
I understand the frustration of people saying you are doing something that can hurt your glider, when you in your heart know you arent hurting you glider. The same thing happened to me when i said i had cork bark in my cage. Some people told me my gliders were gonna choke to death, but i had my reasons for using it, and now a lot more people understand why.
I dont think anyone is attacking you for your diet, but the tone in your posts seem to put out a "know it all" vibe. You do (whether you mean to or not) sound like you are talking down to us. We are tlaking about fur separation and the softness of the coat.. and it is know in all mammals (including humans) that a healthy coat is a sign of a healthy animal. When the fur is matted EXCESSIVELY then it could be a cause for concern. Not rush your suggie to the vet right now concern, but more like "you might want to re-think your diet, or make sure the suggie is eating all parts of the diet" Just because you feed a good diet that is accepted by other in the community doesnt mean that you have a well balanced diet.. only because you suggie might only be eating one part, or not enough of another part..
Doesnt mean you diet is bad, just that you need to rethink things. I'm not saying you in particular need to rethink anyhing, but there is no reason for you to become frustrated because people are concerned that their glider's fur is matted.. they should be concerned to a point..
Re: Diets and Photos
[Re: ]
#355412 08/06/0702:52 PM08/06/0702:52 PM
There is a difference between matted fur and seperated fur. Individual animals of the same species can have very different fur. Some animals fur is longer than others, some have cowlicks and swirls that make their fur lay differently. Yes, rough, dull or matted coats can be a sign of a bad diet, but just because the fur seperates doesn't mean the diet is bad. I have three cats who all eat the same thing and have very different fur types.
Guys, a friend asked me to post something here. We have two colonies and we recently acquired two pitiful runts and were successful in integrating them into the "D" colony.
Dottie was skinny (32 grams), with green-hued, mottled, dry fur. Her fur was dry and "crinkly" to the touch, mottled, and poorly colored. It was not supple, smooth and consistently colored.
We got her on the HPW diet (slightly modified) over the past month or so and her coat has improved significantly.
Now, I attribute her (former) poor fur to several things (no particular order):
1. This little girl was pulled-off her mom and dad too early. They did not have enough time to properly teach her the basics like how to groom. It was not until she integrated with the other individuals in the D colony that she started grooming properly and was beeing groomed by the others.
2. Dottie was dehydrated. In fact, we took her to the vet after a Pedialyte binge. The "snap back test" wasn't even necessary to know she didn't have enough water in her. Her stools were way too loose. We syringed antibiotcis for a week, and fed baby rice cereal mixed with honey and chicken (and of course plenty of water).
3. Dottie stank and was skinny. If your glider stinks (not that beautiful glider funk, but just stank), it's probably malnourished and that often comes out in the smell of their pee. In fact she was so lethargic and weak, she would just sit in food bowls and spoil them. And she would void in the nest as well. That's a sign not only of being weaned too soon, but also of malnutrtion.
So, add these three things together and you get a cruddy-looking coat. But there is no doubt in my mind, having raised a number of gliders that were initially very low weight, that nutrition plays a part in the way a coat looks and feels.
That said, there is a difference between "mottled and matted" fur and simply separated fur. Separated fur happens when a glider moves or bends, but when they change position it all of the sudden looks normal. That is not bad. But mottled and matted fur is consistently cruddy looking no matter what position they are in.
Also, consider the time of day before you judge their fur. We they first get up and climb out of the pouch or nesting box, they often have "bed head." Give them something to eat and after they eat and groom, their fur always looks better.....
You can also improve the look of your animals' fur by petting them. The natural oils on your skin complement the "spit and comb" they do on their own. Once they have trust in you, it is easer to stroke them gently. They love it and it makes their coat shine. We NEVER spray anthing on their fur and we NEVER wash them. They do all the necessary cleaning on their own. If one has the runs, we may wipe their tail with a baby wipe - but that's it.
You keep saying that the fur separation happens when a glider moves or bends, but we are saying that some glider's fur does then when in is NOT moving or bending.. so what is your explaination.. And i do believe separated fur is a form of matted, it is matter together, like when a person doesn't washtheir hair, and it clumps together.
I know that with one of my gliders, his hair is soo "separated" that even when he is sitting still and not bend in any direction, i can pet his hair and FEEL the separations in the fur.. its like little hair balls, but they arent knotted.. I really just dont think that you can understand what any of us are saying if you havent seen it first hand.. Its an otherwise clean and healthy looking glider who's coat just does not look healthy.
Last edited by LindsayAnnG; 08/06/0706:23 PM. Reason: typo
Re: Diets and Photos
[Re: ]
#355715 08/06/0708:22 PM08/06/0708:22 PM
LindsayAnnG I'm sure you love that fur-challenged glider just like I love my little runt Dottie. We all know what our gliders look like and how they act so I'm sure your account of your very own glider is accurate. Luckily, and collectively, the fur in both colonies is looking pretty good now and the runts' fur has improved.
But I know what you mean when you say you don't know unless you've seen it first hand and felt it. That's how we felt about the "crinkly" feeling of Dottie's fur a few months ago...
I don't think diet is 100% of it as you saw from my earlier post, but I do think grooming (or lack of grooming) has something to do with it.
Anyway, I hope it will improve over time and if not, at least your glider seems to be healthy despite the fur.