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Re: bonding method debate [Re: jacknsally] #705960
01/04/09 10:19 PM
01/04/09 10:19 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
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Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
well for starts, it CAN be used by a new ownerand on the website it will state to contact me BEFORE buying it, so at least they have direction as to it's use.

you may want to think the pouch is extreme, when in reallity it is not, it is removing the fear factor, and offering the glider a chance to really acclimate, now as for answer questions, I have done this, but now it is getting to the point, where somehow some where, you all have decided that you can dictate as to who can use what pouch for what reason. now you go tell alicia she is cruel to use the sissy for new owners, or karenI, and they will tell you where to go. these pouches CAN be used, not only on new owners, but by breeders as well, they can be used by all rescue homes, and they can be used by anyone who has a glider that crabs, when you enter the pouch.

you decision is that is is inhumane and cruel, extreme, .. who are you to judge me, the pouch or the methods.

you have your methods, I have mine, if mine work in 2 days, and yours takes you 2 weeks, to stop crabbing so what, I am not jumping in and telling everyone that your methods are cruel, because you choose to allow the gliders to crab, for as long as you do.

at some point, this thread should bend to what Kinue had stated and that is different bonding techniques. Robin has requested you help publicly for help to continue with hers, and your advice was get a new pouch, (I love karin so it has nothing to do with her) but you gave her no direction on what to do with the pouch. what else is involved, ? so she just sticks the pouch in and offer licky treats? duhhhh.. use the thread constructively. offer other methods, if not, it is nothing more than another bashing thread against the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets.

offer other alternatives instead of saying there is other ways.. a blanket statement means nothing to new owners, as I stated before, advise to give the glider time to acclimate.. but what should they be doing during that time? advise to use a bonding pouch and again do what with it..

who are you to judge? me the pouch or the procedures that you are not familiar with..

Nancy I am sorry I have not kept up with you to talk about the changes in how to use it, but I figured you would know that offering treats, going slow, letting the glider acclimate.. you are not a newby, nor were you then.

my techniques stop their crabbing by their choice, not by mine, they stop their biting and lunging, by their choice not by mine. taking away the things that they are afraid of is not wrong, for them to stop crabbing in 2 days is not wrong. to help the owners learn to relax, take their time, be patient with their glider is not wrong.

If you have a bonding technique that you think works as good if not better, then get on here, start posting to the people who are asking for the help, give them direction, show them the proper way to do it. don't condemn something that is working, not only for special cases, but also new babies, old gliders, rescues, and medical cases.

This now has nothing to do with new ideas. because you all haven't posted any. I will continue to help the gliders that are afraid, you don't like it.. tough.. I will do what I do, because that is what I do, I don't need you all to approve or disapprove of my methods, because to be honest with you, you are nothing to me, if you stand in the way of gliders being helped, then I have no need for you simple as that.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon] #705981
01/04/09 10:34 PM
01/04/09 10:34 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
jacknsally Offline
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jacknsally  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
Originally Posted By: Bourbon

Nancy I am sorry I have not kept up with you to talk about the changes in how to use it, but I figured you would know that offering treats, going slow, letting the glider acclimate.. you are not a newby, nor were you then.



Your right, I wasn't a newby and I did those exact techniques without the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets and have success. I've asked before, so what is it your doing that is helping your progress and EVERY answer is oh you'll have to ask Bourbon. They make it sound like it's some ancient chinese secret on what techniques are being used along with the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets. I understand each case is different and their not all handled the same- that's great but a simple, we are doing this or have done this would have worked fine. After reading through here and seeing you define details, it doesn't sound like the process is much different than traditional bonding techniques, your just changing out the sleeping quarters for the glider.

To me it's like discipline with children- one technique works for one and one works for the other. I personally feel children shouldn't have a hand laid on them and others feel if done the right way it works. I have the right to feel it's emotional abuse, but I wouldn't do anything about it unless it was physical abuse.

How is taking away their pouch, taking away their fear? I haven't seen a glider afraid of their pouch- that's why they seek shelter there, from the outside fears.


Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique
Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon] #705989
01/04/09 10:42 PM
01/04/09 10:42 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline OP
Glider Slave
thefotokat  Offline OP
Glider Slave

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
Some of us have already posted here, and other locations, some things that have worked for us. In my initial post, I outlined things that I think of when dealing w/bonding. There is no way to make a blanket post of a method we use. I use many different ways when working w/gliders. I have been, and continue to be, available to help anyone who wants to discuss their situation. What is being discussed is a method/technique. It has no importance as to "whose" it is. It is not up to any one person to approve or disapprove anything. It is up to each person to make a decision for themselves. My initial post is meant as food for thought. This thread is about bonding, not any one person. This thread is about differing views...sharing them respectfully.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: jacknsally] #705993
01/04/09 10:51 PM
01/04/09 10:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,035
Las Vegas, NV/Columbus, OH
DeeDancer Offline
Glider Guardian
DeeDancer  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,035
Las Vegas, NV/Columbus, OH
Originally Posted By: jacknsally

How is taking away their pouch, taking away their fear? I haven't seen a glider afraid of their pouch- that's why they seek shelter there, from the outside fears.


In regards to my glider-he wasn't afraid of his pouch, he was afraid of the sounds he heard OUTSIDE of his pouch that he couldn't see. The PP pouch allowed him to associate those sounds with actions that he could SEE-actions that weren't harming him. Honestly, I would imagine that that hammock thing would work just as well, as it's the same principle. The PP pouch and the shallow pouch idea and the cabana all offer the glider a way to look outside to see what is going on. In a deep pouch my glider wasn't about to come check stuff out every time he heard something that startled him.


~Deanna~
Chinchillas: Luke, Yoda, and Pronk
Gliders: Nika, Ranger, and DeeGee

(702)250-5236
Re: bonding method debate [Re: DeeDancer] #706006
01/04/09 11:08 PM
01/04/09 11:08 PM

7
7glider7
Unregistered
7glider7
Unregistered
7



I want to add that I agree that gliders can crab for different reasons.

When I first brought Kirby home he would crab and lunge if you approached his pouch and it was clear he was very fearful. I would work with him very slowly, just talking to him and then finally feeding him treats through the cage bars. It took weeks. He was so fearful. He would just tense up and crab vehemently and look absolutely petrified.

Kirby still crabs sometimes, but it is not the same kind of crabbing. He now crabs when he is irritated. He loves his beauty sleep! If I wake him up by shifting his pouch, he will crab. How do I know it's not fear of me he's crabbing about? Because when I open the pouch and talk to him and pet him, he stops, begrudgingly. It's like he's grumpy and he just needs me to remind him that I'm here to take care of him, and then he will settle down.

I don't want to weigh in too much on this PP method as I have never used it. But I hope that people will recognize that crabbing is not *always* a sign of blatant fear, that there can be different causes of crabbing, and that since there are different causes and gliders have different personalities, different approaches may be needed to help gliders overcome their discomfort.

My gliders, for one, would freak out if I took all the stuff out of their cage except one pouch. In fact, I tried something similar to this, upon a board member's recommendation, several years ago when I was a newbie to get Kirby to sleep in his bonding pouch rather than a tunnel. I removed the hammocks and tunnels so he'd sleep in the pouch and we could "bond." What did he do? He slept in his wheel, shivering. I felt awful, and realized this was NOT going at Kirby's pace. This was me forcing "bonding" on Kirby, and it was setting us back rather than moving us forward, because he was so stressed out about his cage changing.

Let's be real here, there's a difference between adding enrichment to a glider's cage (new toy arrangement, some eucalyptus, etc) and removing just about everything from a glider's cage so they have no choice except to use a specific pouch (removing items such as wheels in particular will stress many gliders out).

It sounds like the PP method works really well for some gliders, so I'm glad there is another option out there and we are discussing it. I just hope that newbies realize it's not the ONLY way and it may not be the best way for THEIR glider.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: jacknsally] #706007
01/04/09 11:09 PM
01/04/09 11:09 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
asked before, so what is it your doing that is helping your progress and EVERY answer is oh you'll have to ask Bourbon. They make it sound like it's some ancient chinese secret


I am sorry, but am I the only one that laughed so hard they cried on this remark....

I have nothing to add here, but Nancy, from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for a REAL laugh out loud with that remark!!! roflmao

(not trying to take away from what you guys are talking about....back to your regular scheduled posting....)


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: Srlb] #706012
01/04/09 11:13 PM
01/04/09 11:13 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
jacknsally Offline
Glider Addict
jacknsally  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
Originally Posted By: Srlb
Quote:
asked before, so what is it your doing that is helping your progress and EVERY answer is oh you'll have to ask Bourbon. They make it sound like it's some ancient chinese secret


I am sorry, but am I the only one that laughed so hard they cried on this remark....

I have nothing to add here, but Nancy, from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for a REAL laugh out loud with that remark!!! roflmao

(not trying to take away from what you guys are talking about....back to your regular scheduled posting....)


NOOO your not roflmao


Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique
Re: bonding method debate [Re: Srlb] #706016
01/04/09 11:15 PM
01/04/09 11:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Trigger Offline
Glider Addict
Trigger  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Well I have 4 (four) cages of gliders, 9 total and every single glider has come to me in a different state.
Lucy I would have called a PP glider till she got around to me.

All my crew are worked with at their pace UNTIL I need to check them from tip of the nose to tip of the tail. Then they go at my pace.

All my crew are allowed to settle in and go slowly to play but I check my gliders daily to see if there are any wounds or sores etc. that need a vet and aT THAT POINT THEY HAVE TO UNDERSTAND i AM MOM, I WILL CHECK YOU FROM HEAD TO TOES.
All my gliders now understand fully what "it's OK mom is right here means".

My gliders do NOT play with the frilly crud toys I still put in the cages like bridges and vines. They only interact with the reset toys like the monkey toys and the toy boxes.

Do my gliders crab, NO not if I am in the area, b/c they know they are safe. But they didn't always, it took me teaching them that I am thier protector and they are safe when I am near.

Do my gliders still complain when I grab them to check them out. DUH!


»-(¯`v´¯)-»MO MONEY!»-(¯`v´¯)-»
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com
Re: bonding method debate [Re: ] #706017
01/04/09 11:20 PM
01/04/09 11:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline OP
Glider Slave
thefotokat  Offline OP
Glider Slave

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
Originally Posted By: 7glider7

But I hope that people will recognize that crabbing is not *always* a sign of blatant fear, that there can be different causes of crabbing, and that since there are different causes and gliders have different personalities, different approaches may be needed to help gliders overcome their discomfort.


It sounds like the PP method works really well for some gliders, so I'm glad there is another option out there and we are discussing it. I just hope that newbies realize it's not the ONLY way and it may not be the best way for THEIR glider.



This is a point I'm trying to make. There are no hard and fast rules w/gliders, but we have to understand why we're doing something to evaluate if it's working.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: Srlb] #706021
01/04/09 11:25 PM
01/04/09 11:25 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
CandyOtte Offline
Serious Glideritis
CandyOtte  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
Quote:
Bourbon:
This now has nothing to do with new ideas. because you all haven't posted any. I will continue to help the gliders that are afraid, you don't like it.. tough.. I will do what I do, because that is what I do, I don't need you all to approve or disapprove of my methods, because to be honest with you, you are nothing to me, if you stand in the way of gliders being helped, then I have no need for you simple as that.


Bourbon, a suggestion was made in the Pouch Protector Thread that we take the discussion of other bonding methods and suggestions and its discussion to a NEW THREAD - which is what was done.

In all fairness, you have now joined this thread and are focusing this thread on the PP Pouch method. I feel you are being overly defensive and unwilling to let others express thoughts and other ideas and suggestions.

I find it hard to respect someone who takes the my or the highway attitude expressed by you as: "because to be honest with you, you are nothing to me"

If you were truly interested in allowing other ideas to be discussed you would be willing to LISTEN to others as well.


Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com
Re: bonding method debate [Re: Srlb] #706022
01/04/09 11:25 PM
01/04/09 11:25 PM

T
TWilson
Unregistered
TWilson
Unregistered
T



Originally Posted By: Srlb
Quote:
asked before, so what is it your doing that is helping your progress and EVERY answer is oh you'll have to ask Bourbon. They make it sound like it's some ancient chinese secret


I am sorry, but am I the only one that laughed so hard they cried on this remark....

I have nothing to add here, but Nancy, from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for a REAL laugh out loud with that remark!!! roflmao

(not trying to take away from what you guys are talking about....back to your regular scheduled posting....)


Peggy, I spit diet pepsi all over my computer, I was laughing so hard I couldn't swallow......you are not the only one. LOL

And yes, thank you Nancy and I now know to step away from the computer when reading your posts in the future. smile

Re: bonding method debate [Re: thefotokat] #706030
01/04/09 11:31 PM
01/04/09 11:31 PM

7
7glider7
Unregistered
7glider7
Unregistered
7



I'd also like to point out a cross reference of the PP bonding method to human psychology, since I was reading the first thread about this pouch and it was compared with a child being afraid of someone knocking on the door, and then once you allow the child to see outside the house, they are no longer afraid since they know what's out there.

This technique is basically called "flooding" in psychology, it's a method of desensitization that is sometimes used for people with phobias. For example, let's say a lady is afraid of spiders. Some psychologists would make this person sit in a room full of spiders and then let spiders crawl on the person. They totally flip out at first, but then they start to calm down and see that spiders aren't so bad because the spiders aren't actually hurting them, and then they get over the phobia. This is a VERY STRESSFUL way for someone to get over a phobia. However, it also has a fairly high success rate.

Now, let's relate this to gliders, as gliders are different from humans.

Gliders are naturally animals that would dwell in a tree cavity during the day where they would face minimal sound and distractions from the outside world while they are sleeping. They respond to disturbances and possible predators by getting in their "ninja stance" and crabbing, because a whole colony of little marsupials doing this might be enough to scare a predator away! Similarly, if we do something a) to make our gliders afraid, or b) to disturb their sleep in their enclosed cavity (pouch), it is a natural instinct for them to crab to say "go away."

Essentially, by taking away all of their hiding places except for this one open pouch (which is not a natural cavity-like place a glider would normally sleep in), you are "flooding" your glider with sounds and stimuli. Yes, there is a good chance that this will desensitize your glider to these sounds. As mentioned above, flooding is quite effective. But just as it is for humans, one could argue that it is also very stressful. You are taking a cavity-nesting animal that is nocturnal and opening up its world during its normal sleeping hours to all sorts of stimuli and asking it to adapt.

Will it adapt? Sure. But it is likely to be stressful.

Again, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this PP method. As I said before, flooding is effective, and you could easily argue that it is a lesser evil to desensitize your glider to all this stimuli than for your glider to constantly be sensitive to it and stressed by it. Honestly, both this method and other methods we endorse (carrying our gliders in bonding pouches, sticking our hand in the pouch with treats, etc) are other methods of desensitization too to get a nocturnal animal to tolerate stimuli during the day.

Interestingly, I had one vet my gliders saw for a short while who suggested we should not carry gliders in pouches during the day at all because he felt it was stressful and unnatural for them as nocturnal animals dunno So there is the other end of the argument spectrum for you.

Just thought I'd throw some new viewpoints into the debate.

Food for thought: I've had Kirby 3 years now, and he is still making progress. smile These guys can certainly get better over time slowly!

Re: bonding method debate [Re: ] #706036
01/04/09 11:37 PM
01/04/09 11:37 PM

T
TWilson
Unregistered
TWilson
Unregistered
T



Very interesting read Jen, thank you for sharing.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: ] #706056
01/05/09 12:01 AM
01/05/09 12:01 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Ok, I guess I WILL add something else here...

May I just say first of all, Jen you can KEEP YOUR SPIDERS!! I will probably have nightmares now dreaming of spiders crawling on me since I DO have a phobia of them....

Secondly, I just want everyone to know...THIS is why I love gliders...

THEY HAVE A *NINJA* STANCE!! A critter after my own heart!! mlove

(hmmm....maybe that is why Nancy is thinking it could be a chinese secret!! roflmao)


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: Srlb] #706074
01/05/09 12:21 AM
01/05/09 12:21 AM

D
DelilahsMom
Unregistered
DelilahsMom
Unregistered
D



Ok, all this psychology stuff is bothering me. Do we even know how developed a glider's brain is? Are they capabale of "human emotion"? I'm not trying to stir the pot but.... Honestly, does anyone know how a gliders brain is developed? Certain parts of the brain affect different things. So if the part of their brain that handles emotion is drastically smaller then we can put some of the negative labels behind us.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: ] #706087
01/05/09 12:27 AM
01/05/09 12:27 AM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Quote:
They make it sound like it's some ancient chinese secret



Confucius says:
When it is obvious that the goals cannot be reached, don't adjust the goals, adjust the action steps.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon] #706097
01/05/09 12:32 AM
01/05/09 12:32 AM

D
DelilahsMom
Unregistered
DelilahsMom
Unregistered
D



OT- kinda... B-did you get a chance to look at that pouch. I thought maybe Robin might qualify to test it.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: ] #706103
01/05/09 12:39 AM
01/05/09 12:39 AM

7
7glider7
Unregistered
7glider7
Unregistered
7



Originally Posted By: DelilahsMom
Ok, all this psychology stuff is bothering me. Do we even know how developed a glider's brain is? Are they capabale of "human emotion"? I'm not trying to stir the pot but.... Honestly, does anyone know how a gliders brain is developed? Certain parts of the brain affect different things. So if the part of their brain that handles emotion is drastically smaller then we can put some of the negative labels behind us.


Sure, I don't think anyone could argue a glider's brain is set up the same way. They likely don't process emotion the same way. I do believe in emotions in animals (fear, anxiety, definitely sense of humor when mine dole out the face hugs) but others would argue there are no emotions in animals at all. But even if you argue for animals having no emotions, they can still sense and process stimuli in their environment, and then they respond to the stimulus according to their instincts or "fixed action patterns" if you want to follow animal behavior 101 vocabulary.

If you want to use this model, you can say that a glider responds to stimulus (noise, smells, etc) in its environment that are unfamiliar by instinctually crabbing. This is an adaptation, selected for by natural selection, that has helped gliders increase their survival and reproduction in the wild by scaring away predators. They carry the same behavior pattern into captivity. Possibly dangerous noise/smell/sight comes in = crabbing as a response.

However, if you desensitize them to these stimuli, and they see that the possibly dangerous noise/smells/sights don't necessarily mean danger, you can somewhat "re-route" the pathways/patterns in their brain, if you will, by familiarizing them with these stimuli and thus changing the response (no crabbing). In other words, we have observed with our captive gliders that they can unlearn these behaviors over time, just as they can also learn fear and anxiety.

Any good behaviorist will tell you that behavior is a combo of genes and environment, so behaviors will vary in how much you can change them (and how fast) based on 1) an animal's genes, and 2) the environment they were raised in and live in now.

So you could also view it from an entirely non-emotional perspective.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: Srlb] #706105
01/05/09 12:40 AM
01/05/09 12:40 AM

7
7glider7
Unregistered
7glider7
Unregistered
7



Originally Posted By: Srlb
Ok, I guess I WILL add something else here...

May I just say first of all, Jen you can KEEP YOUR SPIDERS!! I will probably have nightmares now dreaming of spiders crawling on me since I DO have a phobia of them....

Secondly, I just want everyone to know...THIS is why I love gliders...

THEY HAVE A *NINJA* STANCE!! A critter after my own heart!! mlove

(hmmm....maybe that is why Nancy is thinking it could be a chinese secret!! roflmao)


OK I hate spiders too roflmao I was going to use the example of this lady on the Jerry Springer show I saw once while waiting in the ER room waiting to have my arm x-rayed. She was terrified of mustard and they chased her around with a hot dog. But I decided that was TOO ridiculous. Very un-scientific wink roflmao

Re: bonding method debate [Re: ] #706120
01/05/09 12:56 AM
01/05/09 12:56 AM

D
DelilahsMom
Unregistered
DelilahsMom
Unregistered
D



Jen, Thanks...

I guess for some of us, this has felt like a personal attack. I can tell you that when I got my babies from (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets I was scared to death. I was snowed by what they told me so when I saw negative things about them here, I believed them even more. So for 6 months I was a) scared to death of my babies b) chasing them through the house when they got loose c)putting them in a bonding pouch only to hear them crab nonstop d) playing in a tent where they would hide in the corner and have nothing to do with me e) sit and talk to them... ok, my point is made. So I tried what I had been told and for 6 months, NOTHING WORKED.

Then I came to GC after acquiring another (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets glider that died in my bra. Again, I read to do all the things I had been trying. We started making a bit of progress in August. October 31st I met Bourbon. I was a sponge, I saw her work her "ancient chinese secret" right in front of me.

I can't work at Bourbon's pace. I go to school full time and can't always work with them all day every day. But using her methods, I can handle my first 2 and my rescues look forward to me coming in there room. But, even though I am in there off and on all day, they now sleep through my frequent visits. They don't crab and attack the rept anymore.

I need to start taking things less personal because I do understand where you all are coming from. It's kinda like when some parents swear by spanking their kids and others use time out. We may agree or disagree but we all have to remember that we are all here for the gliders. We need to keep an open mind.

Also, I don't want to lose any friends over this. Val, you know I love you to death and admire you a ton. B- I'm proud to call you my friend and know that I can make you choke on YOUR food.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: ] #706129
01/05/09 01:13 AM
01/05/09 01:13 AM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
My grandson has been diagnosed as autistic, and one thing we have learned is that while in "mode" he has no sensory, he strictly falls into the pattern of basic animal instinct of fight or flight. while in mode he feels no pain, he hears nothing he just responds out of sheer reaction, and that reaction at his tender little age, without a way to communicate, was the basic instincts.

What we have learned, is much like the gliders, he thrives very well on routine, gliders do not like change, the simplist change may or may not send a glider into "mode" where they react strictly on those instincts. as I stated before when a glider gets afraid and they run to hide, many times even under extreme circumstances they will not logically think of the safest thing to do,

the rest of the story of the wildfires, I was told by a friend that he heard gliders screaming through the forests, and other animals as well that refused to come out of their homes to save themselves. because in their fear they too lose all sensory, they feel nothing they can't think logically, they just react.

we had to learn, my grandsons way of communicating, we had to listen closer, watch his body language, find out what bothered him and what made him feel comfortable, we had to learn a whole new way of life. We found this to also be true with the gliders, as the owners that I am working with is learning, they too are learning to listen to their gliders, learn their eyes, their body language and the things that scare them, but also what makes them feel comfortable and safe.

I was reminded that horses do the same thing they will run to the furthest corner of their barns, and if left to make their own decision to save themselves they would parish.

one of the things we do is make the changes at night, when things are quiet and we give them a chance to get used to their new surroundings, as a general rule, the gliders spend the night getting used to things, by the time late morning comes around (normal glider hours) they are not as wound up as they are the night before, mostly due to the changes in the cage.

they spend their day, not bouncing around the cage all freaked out as one may think, but sleeping comfortably, only lifting their heads to identify the sounds. This is a key factor here, one that some are not understanding. they are looking to be sure the sound is not coming towards them.. key factor, the owners are not moving in towards the gliders at all during this time. The gliders are not shaking, they are not crabbing , they are not generally running at each sound. they are not [censored] out

much like if your asleep and your spouse walks across the room, you may open your eyes only to see what is moving.

is there some cases when this isn't the case sure, but there is not a quick answer for everyone. for the most part, the gliders do adapt well in captivity, it is proven all the time, gliders are in different rooms of the homes, they run and adapt to the owners schedule, in the wild they forage and feed in the wee hours of the morning, but many people have adapted their glider to their time, some feed at 5 or 6 pm, (human feeding time) and the gliders adapt to that, a glider who only has 3 legs, they adapt to their change in circumstances a blind glider also adapts to their circumstances. .. we have many special needs gliders that adapt well. but the key is adaption, although they don't like change, they adapt to it.


Re: bonding method debate [Re: ] #706159
01/05/09 02:08 AM
01/05/09 02:08 AM

7
7glider7
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I hope it doesn't feel like a personal attack frown A lot of times debates turn out that way on GC with people getting offended, but I think it's OK to agree to disagree. I just like to take part in debates objectively. dunno

I'm glad that people are posting different bonding methods. I don't know that they'd work for my gliders, but I'm glad they're being discussed. Clearly they are working really well for some gliders.

I know that the techniques I read about and was told about when I first joined...some worked great for my gliders, others did not work for my gliders. It's all about finding what makes your gliders comfortable around you.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: ] #706246
01/05/09 08:51 AM
01/05/09 08:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline OP
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thefotokat  Offline OP
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There's no reason for any debate to be taken personally. It's a discussion. If people get to a point that different ideas/opinions cannot be expressed respectfully, then we're going to lose out on a lot of education and information. To shut others out simply because they disagree w/you is unfortunate.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: ] #706299
01/05/09 10:50 AM
01/05/09 10:50 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,224
North Fort Worth - TX
jacknsally Offline
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North Fort Worth - TX
Originally Posted By: DelilahsMom
Ok, all this psychology stuff is bothering me. Do we even know how developed a glider's brain is? Are they capabale of "human emotion"?


Have you ever had a glider mourn the loss of another glider? Is that emotion?

Are your gliders excited to see you when they wake up? Is that emotion

Have you ever had a glider who is depressed? Is that emotion?

Stress is an emotion.

I've had gliders who have felt and shown all these actions and if they are considered emotions for people, then they are considered emotions for gliders.


Ñancy
~Always on my mind & in my heart Jack, Sally & Serenity~


Mobmilli's Boutique
Re: bonding method debate [Re: thefotokat] #706303
01/05/09 11:09 AM
01/05/09 11:09 AM

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TWilson
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We all come from different walks of life, with different live experiences, and each brings different things to the table.
This is how we learn, it makes us think and take into consideration other points of view. We may not always agree, but like Kate said, we should be respectful otherwise we lose, and more importantly, our gliders lose.

I like Jen's (7glider7) input, it comes from knowledge with her backgroud and is very educational, I always learn something new.

My background is different from hers, mine is social service, I work with families in crisis. I work closely with state and local goverment, the Sheriff's office, State Attorney's office and other social service organizations. My work requires assessment, patience, understanding individual needs, compassion and guidance.

I use my knowledge of these things to understand my gliders. I know that they all require the same dietary requirements for proper nutrition, but they are all individuals in their behavior. What works for some, may not for others and I assess their behavior and go with what I think is best for them. Some bonding or trust building methods may work the same for certain gliders, but there are cases that I've had that would do the exact opposite in some gliders.

It is by sharing stories, ideas, and methods that we can learn about the gliders that live with us.
Some can tell me that a method that I've used is hogwash, they would never do that and can disagree with me and that is OKAY. I do understand that we are different individuals therefore, we will have different opinions at times. smile

Re: bonding method debate [Re: ] #706308
01/05/09 11:15 AM
01/05/09 11:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline OP
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thefotokat  Offline OP
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
It's continued learning and adaptation that moves us forward.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: ] #706312
01/05/09 11:30 AM
01/05/09 11:30 AM

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BelladonnasMom
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Originally Posted By: TWilson
I like Jen's (7glider7) input, it comes from knowledge with her backgroud and is very educational, I always learn something new.

My background is different from hers, mine is social service, I work with families in crisis. I work closely with state and local goverment, the Sheriff's office, State Attorney's office and other social service organizations. My work requires assessment, patience, understanding individual needs, compassion and guidance.

I use my knowledge of these things to understand my gliders. I know that they all require the same dietary requirements for proper nutrition, but they are all individuals in their behavior. What works for some, may not for others and I assess their behavior and go with what I think is best for them. Some bonding or trust building methods may work the same for certain gliders, but there are cases that I've had that would do the exact opposite in some gliders.

It is by sharing stories, ideas, and methods that we can learn about the gliders that live with us.
Some can tell me that a method that I've used is hogwash, they would never do that and can disagree with me and that is OKAY. I do understand that we are different individuals therefore, we will have different opinions at times. smile


Absolutely! I use my Nursing background and apply my knowledge to my gliders as well, not only on the physical aspect, but emotional and psychological as well. Because lets face it, we really DON'T know that much about our gliders yet, so some speculation and assumption has to be done to better understand other species that human.

I also think it is so much more effective to make a point you believe is valid without pointing a finger and saying what someone else is doing is wrong. Again, we really don't KNOW what is right and what is wrong, not on this subject. But we CAN listen to each other and decide for ourselves. ALL OF US! And I am not calling any one person or group of people out, we are all guilty of this at times. Healthy debate is just that... HEALTHY! But accusations and finger pointing only cause people to shut down and not listen.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: thefotokat] #706313
01/05/09 11:31 AM
01/05/09 11:31 AM

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BelladonnasMom
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Originally Posted By: thefotokat
It's continued learning and adaptation that moves us forward.


Yep yep! smile

Re: bonding method debate [Re: jacknsally] #706334
01/05/09 12:01 PM
01/05/09 12:01 PM

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DelilahsMom
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DelilahsMom
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Originally Posted By: jacknsally
Originally Posted By: DelilahsMom
Ok, all this psychology stuff is bothering me. Do we even know how developed a glider's brain is? Are they capabale of "human emotion"?


Have you ever had a glider mourn the loss of another glider? Is that emotion?

Are your gliders excited to see you when they wake up? Is that emotion

Have you ever had a glider who is depressed? Is that emotion?

Stress is an emotion.

I've had gliders who have felt and shown all these actions and if they are considered emotions for people, then they are considered emotions for gliders.


No, I have not had a glider mourn the loss of another glider.
Yes, my gliders do seem happy to see me but don't forget Pavlov's dog. (conditioning, I'm the food lady)
Nope, have never seen my gliders depressed.
And, I have a hard time classifying stress as an emotion.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: ] #706340
01/05/09 12:07 PM
01/05/09 12:07 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline OP
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thefotokat  Offline OP
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Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
I agree, Robin. There needs to be communication and we do need to listen to each other. Just because we disagree doesn't mean we think badly of each other. We just have different opinions. It's when listening stops, that the chance for sharing and learning stops...that door is slammed shut. We all have something to offer. Even if I don't agree w/something, doesn't mean I don't learn something from it. Perhaps we're all hearing what each other is saying and we may use that adapt some of each other's ways to a point where we're comfortable w/it.

Originally Posted By: Bourbon

...you don't like it.. tough.. I will do what I do, because that is what I do, I don't need you all to approve or disapprove of my methods, because to be honest with you, you are nothing to me, if you stand in the way of gliders being helped, then I have no need for you simple as that.


By telling those w/differing opinons that we mean "nothing" to you, that is slamming a door shut. It's sad that anyone would feel that way. I've personally learned a lot from many people...old and new. I've learned from those I've agreed with as well as those I haven't. Just becasue I feel something is harmful and I wouldn't recommend it doesn't mean I consider someone "nothing". It just means I disagree.

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