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Re: bonding method debate [Re: thefotokat] #706347
01/05/09 12:18 PM
01/05/09 12:18 PM

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DelilahsMom
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I think what Bourbon is trying to say is that she doesn't need your guys approval. Come on, some pretty harsh terms have been used when describing her methods. From what I have gathered from the past, this isn't the first time a small group of people have attacked her methods either.

Maybe I am old fashioned but, regardless of if you like her methods or not, I'd think you all would have respect for Bourbon. She was dealing with gliders before some of the members here were born or out of diapers. She has done a lot to increase our knowledge, worked with vets and developed a diet. She continues to be a HUGE support, taking calls around the clock for gliders that have SM'd. She hasn't gotten one single dime for her countless hours of help to this community.

Maybe you all take her for granted. But one day she isn't going to be here anymore because a) the drama was too much b) she got burnt out.

She has never asked anyone here for a dime for her help. If this was a dog and she was a dog trainer, she could easily as for $100 per hour in person and $75 per hour on phone consults. I know I have never gotten a bill from her. None of us chip in and help with her cell phone bill. Yet, she continues to answer the phone around the clock, cigarette in one hand, Mt. Dew in the other.

Last edited by DelilahsMom; 01/05/09 01:35 PM.
Re: bonding method debate [Re: ] #706351
01/05/09 12:26 PM
01/05/09 12:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline OP
Glider Slave
thefotokat  Offline OP
Glider Slave

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
Brittney, this has nothing to do w/a "person". It's a method that opinions are being expressed about. Too often, people confuse questioning/disagreeing w/a technique/idea/statement as "attacking" the person. It's not. It's debating and discussing.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: ] #706355
01/05/09 12:32 PM
01/05/09 12:32 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Brittney is it?? Let me ask you this...

How long have YOU known Bourbon??

Obviously not long enough. You see, I have known B for many years now. Love her to pieces. WE Definitely do NOT agree with everything each of us thinks or feels. Bourbon and I have personally been bumping heads since my beginning with gliders. Started off with diets...go figure!! roflmao

This is NOT a PERSONAL attack on B and you know what, even if it were, she is a big girl and confident enough in herself and how she feels and believes to be able to continue doing what she does the way she does it no matter what anyone else thinks.

She is just as guilty as saying some things that cut through the skin as the next person. Imagine that...that makes us all even and equal. She is also not the only one to work with vets and come up with diets or be there to help people around the clock. I can call a LOT of the people on this board and NONE of them including myself ever think of charging a dime.

Bourbon is in it for the SAME reason ALL of us are in it. It is NOT for a pat on the back or the attagirl applause, it is for the GLIDER.

Just because one person may look at some of the methods Bourbon chooses as being one thing (Tammy, I will use your Stockholm example here), doesnt mean Tammy is saying Bourbon is wicked and cruel and mistreats gliders, it just means that the way TAMMY sees it through HER eyes reminds her of this way. So SHE chooses NOT to use THAT method on HER gliders.

Just like Bourbon chooses to feed what she feeds and I choose to feed what I feed. Doesnt make either of us wrong. We just feel differently about what to feed our gliders.

So, knowing Bourbon the way I do know her, yea, that comment was out of character for her, but she was also taking things (such as the above statment) too personally, when it wasnt a personal thing anyway.

In the end, it doesnt matter what PEOPLE think...it matters if you are able to say you know what, I was able to help a glider today. It is the glider that will appreciate what we do for them. We should NEVER EXPECT things or feelings from people...that is how we are let down or hurt.

You have to do what you feel is right for YOU and as long as you are helping....it is OK for others to not agree with how you are doing it.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: Srlb] #706362
01/05/09 12:49 PM
01/05/09 12:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,520
St. Charles, Missouri
Suggiegramma Offline
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Suggiegramma  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,520
St. Charles, Missouri
Originally Posted By: Srlb
So, knowing Bourbon the way I do know her, yea, that comment was out of character for her, but she was also taking things (such as the above statment) too personally, when it wasnt a personal thing anyway.


It's hard not to take things too personally when you're passionate about something.

My Hansel used to be a pit bull biter and after sitting down with Bourbon for about 2 hours at one of the glider functions, with many questions and answers, we decided that the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets was the way to go. You wouldn't know he was the same glider now. I thank Bourbon for that. Everyone does things differently, I happen to LOVE the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets.


Virginia

Suggies
Sachi,Miuccia,Mignon,Cosette,Blaise,Florianna,Fabio,
Abbi,Fletcher,Eshton,Hansel,Gretel,Sahara,Parker,SugarBear,
Emily,Ariana,Symphony,Mozart,Smeegle,Cocoa,Hershey,Tippy,
Hollister,Anastasia,Buffy,Tawny,Stormy,Aurora,Chance,Karma,
Kristoff,Ruby.


Re: bonding method debate [Re: Suggiegramma] #706368
01/05/09 12:55 PM
01/05/09 12:55 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
It's hard not to take things too personally when you're passionate about something.


Couldnt agree with this statement more Virginia, that is why it is nice when you DO start taking things personally, you have someone come in and remind you that its not. That will allow you to refocus and get back on the track you were on.

The (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets didnt work for me, that doesnt mean the method doesnt work, just didnt work for me. I choose to go the old fashioned route myself. Making sure your scent is around your gliders 24/7 is also a VERY important step in bonding.

I have also seen with my own eyes what Bourbon was able to do with Jack. I will never forget how it made Anita feel when the glider she loved so much but could never handle took a glider right over to her and she was able to hold him and pet him without being bit.

Like we are trying to say, this is not about a PERSON, it is about choices. We all are not going to choose the same thing and as long as NO HARM is being done, than nobody is *wrong* in how they choose to do things with THEIR animals.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: ] #706387
01/05/09 01:29 PM
01/05/09 01:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,785
Port Saint Lucie, FL
MatchMakerMagic Offline
Glider Addict
MatchMakerMagic  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,785
Port Saint Lucie, FL
Originally Posted By: DelilahsMom
I think what Bourbon is trying to say is that she doesn't need your guys approval. Come on, some pretty harsh terms have been used when describing her methods. From what I have gathered from the past, this isn't the first time a small group of people have attacked her methods either.

Im sorry you feel that way. Truly am. But I do not see anyone "attacking" anyone! To be able to say, "I disagree with a certain bonding technique" no matter WHAT that technique is certainly is not attacking it. Its just stating a personal opinion. In a thread called "bonding method debate" anyone should be able to do that.

Originally Posted By: DelilahsMom
Maybe I am old fashioned but, regardless of if you like her methods or not, I'd think you all would have respect for Bourbon. She was dealing with gliders before some of the members here were born or out of diapers. She has done a lot to increase our knowledge, worked with vets and developed a diet. She continues to be a HUGE support, taking calls around the clock for gliders that have SM'd. She hasn't gotten one single dime for her countless hours of help to this community.

No one is taking away anything that Bourbon has done. This thread is not about any one PERSON. Its about bonding with gliders. smile


Kinue

ISTJ
When it rains, it pours...

www.serenitysugargliders.homestead.com
Re: bonding method debate [Re: Srlb] #706390
01/05/09 01:35 PM
01/05/09 01:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
I will never forget how it made Anita feel when the glider she loved so much but could never handle took a glider right over to her and she was able to hold him and pet him without being bit.


Poor Anita....she cried when she (just one month later) was able to put her hand in the pouch and Chevy LICKED her instead of drawing blood from her. Chevy is AWESOME now but...he was way different at first! Anita sure loves her babies.

Chevy came to me kinda by accident. He was born at Anita's from one of her pairs and was loved on from day one. Then one day, he became a "demon". A bunch of us were down in Tulsa and all went to Anita's. She was showing us all her purty babies. We first looked at them in one room and then went to the second room. In this second room there was a glider in a pouch just going off! Crabbing like I've never heard from a glider. He was trying to attack anything and everything and the air itself. He just crabbed and tried to attack through the pouch everything that he thought was trying to get him. Just about broke my heart to hear him in such distress.

After everyone left the room but me and Anita, I asked if I could take out his pouch and try to calm him. She warned me that he WOULD bite badly and I agreed to not try to take him out of his pouch. I just took the pouch and held him to my chest and cradled him against me. Anita told me she would try to do that and he would bite through the two layers of fleece, her shirt and draw blood from her chest. She said she had tried everything to calm him down but had no success. She didn't understand why he "hated" her so much.

I told Anita that Chevy didn't hate anyone, he was just terrified. And he was. I asked if I could bring him home to work with him. Since I am home all the time, I had the 24/7 time to give to him. I told her I would bring him home and work to calm him and then he would come back to live with her. (My hubby had told both me and Anita "no buying and no selling any gliders!" meaning I couldn't come home with any new gliders that day).

Well, I brought Chevy home and he went into a cage that most would say was way too small (it is just a temporary holding cage for when I clean cages). This cage was placed next to my bed, within arms reach. He had some toys, a corner shelf, and an open pouch. (not a (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets but similar). After a week, he had calmed down so much.

Day and night I worked with Chevy. At first, he WAS out for blood. He would attack as quickly as look at you. I don't let any animal bite me if I can avoid it. Never made any sense to me to "take the bites" so I do pull back when they strike (and Chevy was pure rattlesnake at first). I spent the first week feeding him before he woke up. I spent time with me talking to him and putting my hands up to the outside of the cage for him to sniff at but not get close enough to bite.

The second week I started to put my hands in the cage. Just resting it on the bottom but not making any moves towards him. He would get curious and come over to check me out and I wouldn't move unless he tried to bite. If he tried to bite, I would pull back but then go right back to where I started (so he didn't learn that striking would get me to go away). By the end of the second week, he was taking treats from me inside the cage with no biting. I moved him into a slightly larger cage (had to get one put together for him) that also had a wheel in it.

Week three involved even more one on one time with me "inside" his cage but with me more activly seeking him out to pet him. He discovered he LIKED that! He got moved into yet another larger cage (36" flight cage). We also learned he liked to "box". He would get up on his back legs and bat at my fingers with his front feet like a boxer. This is one of his favorite games. It is non agressive play with Chevy.

Week 4 we started with bringing him out of his cage in a pouch. I would talk to him and slowly work my hand down into his pouch. By the middle of week 4, I had him sleeping in my hand inside of the pouch. He got moved into a 55" cage at this point.

About the beginning of week 5, there was the get together at Linda's. I took Chevy with me and for the first time in a long time, Anita was able to put her hand in the pouch with Chevy and he curled up on her hand and he nipped (not bit) her once and then started licking her. She cried. She insisted this was not the glider she sent home with me. Anita said she had never had a joey born in her house act like Chevy and she had tried everything to help Chevy feel safe and secure.

I asked to keep him another month or so to continue working with him. About another 6 weeks went by and I called Anita and told her that I had done all I could and it was time he came home so he could bond with his owner. Anita told me that she had just gotten in more rescues and was full and she might have to sell Chevy because of lack of space. My husband said to tell her that if she was going to sell Chevy, she had to sell Chevy to him.

OUR (mine, Joe and Anita's) sweet sweet Chevy still lives here with us but is still very much one of Anita's babies. He has his love Addison who he constantly works to get her approval (she is such a DIVA!). He clicks and clicks and clicks. He hisses to get OUR attention when he sees us and can't wait to say hello to us. He does get a bit "excited" over mealies and a bit grabby with them but everything else he is just very gentle now.

I think in all this time, he has managed to bite me ONCE.

Chevy transitioned into a plastic toy barn with lots of fleece blankets. The barn has doors and windows he can see out of. From there he was introduced to one of Connie's tents. From there he was introduced back into a regular sleep pouch. Most days now, he sleeps in a regular pouch but he still loves his barn and tent and will often choose to sleep in those (I think when Addison kicks him to the "sofa" for the night).

Sorry for the long story but what I wanted to show was the "techniques" I used with Chevy were 1) geared towards what Chevy needed and 2) adapted from the (PPP) Perfect Pocket Pets methods that Bourbon is sharing with others.



620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: bonding method debate [Re: Dancing] #706398
01/05/09 01:40 PM
01/05/09 01:40 PM

D
DelilahsMom
Unregistered
DelilahsMom
Unregistered
D



Dancing, that is an amazing story. I wish I had that kind of unlimited time to focus on working with gliders.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: Srlb] #706465
01/05/09 02:42 PM
01/05/09 02:42 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Quote:
you are nothing to me, if you stand in the way of gliders being helped, then I have no need for you simple as that.



as out of character as this statement may seem, it is not really, not for me.

It is easy to take things personal when a discussion is started on another board, brought over to here with the knowledge it will start [censored], then to take it yet to another board, with the intent to create even more months after a single response was made, a comment wasn't made then, an excerpt taken from a post or 2 was removed, and the whole "debate" was based on that.

for starts the thread if read from beginning to end, if you were to read all of robins posts, especially the one that extrapolated one can easily see that little seriousness was taken regarding the empty cage, in fact I believe the words were, before bourbon/ after bourbon... but what wasn't said or seen was only to make others think that the cages are "stripped of everything" Robin has many things back in her cage, erin has everything back in her cage, in fact a couple of them on working on transiting,

comments were made.. not to debate but to bash the pouches and the technique. and it continues, let me extrapolate the words individually, because still nothing has been said on how these gliders are worse of than they started, even after hearing from them,

These people understand everything, everything was explained in full detail, everything, all the way down to that we knew we were stressing the gliders that first night. but that stress is minimal compared to the stress these gliders were under on a daily bases.

to continue to use words like harmful, cruel etc.. regarding this technique is bashing, because none of those words have been backed up, by anyone I have worked with, that proves, these gliders are worse of than when they started. the reduction of stress is not a bad thing, the removal of fear is not a bad thing, especially if the gliders lived like that.

I have addressed each and every issue that was laid on the board, no comments have been made regarding how the gliders have "SUFFERED" through it all "as a whole"

stress is something we all put our gliders through when it is needed, all because we want life to be better for them,

bring a glider into your home=stress
talking to them when they are new=stress
giving them a new toy=stress
cleaning their cage=stress
cleaning their pouch=stress
cleaning cage+moving items+adding new toys+cleaning their pouch= totally undone glider talk about stress
dealing with a special needs glider, giving meds, injury=super stress
allowing a glider crabbing when in their pouch when it is touched=stress
when a glider escapes from a cage, chasing the glider around =super super stress" (i see this done by people who should know better at gatherings when gliders hit the floor)
putting a collar on to save a gliders life=stress

what we do as a general rule is we sit back and try to justify everything that we do that stresses our glider, there is always a reason, and people say that is different, no it isn't stress is stress is stress, good or bad.

to chastise over and over and over again after total explanation has been answered, is ludicrous at some point then it does turn to bashing, not sharing info, because really no info has really been passed Robin asked for help, she hasn't received it from the people she asked for it from.


7glider7 is the only one that looked at this and gave any type of explanation that was even remotely close to the technique. kinda gave us all something to think about,

but to post the same thing over and over and over then have to defend over and over and over again is insane, it hasn't proven anything. it still in all these pages haven't "proven that these gliders on the thread you extrapolated from, is worse than what they started, in fact on the contrary..

in fact more pouches have been sold, more people have contacted me, because this technique makes sense to them, there is many people who think that this may work for them, and I can make it work for most , at least up to a certain point.

because of this thread now, I will be helping more people, people with gliders not as bad, as robins, or erins, or deannas, but young gliders, new owners, and others that feel they need help, which technique I use is strictly up to me, because you know what?

I do have the experience in many methods, I am no stranger, I know glider behavior, and yes believe it or not, I even know the difference between a scared new glider/owner and a vicious pit bull biter.

This has just reinstated that drive deep down inside of me, that Baybe instilled into me years ago.

I have a gift to look at life through the gliders eyes, I also have a gift to have others see it to. I will continue to share my gift, with any glider owner that needs or FEELS they need my help.

I am not here for anyones approval, pat on the back or recognition, I am here, have been here and always will be here for the "gliders" and I will do what I deem is in their best interest OVERALL, not for a moment, not for a day, but that is long lasting..

also keep in mind is the number of gliders we all are working with a mere 2 or 3 , I have 4 plus my secret stash of gliders, but they are not near the numbers that would take away from the one on one attention that these gliders need.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: Bourbon] #706486
01/05/09 02:59 PM
01/05/09 02:59 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
so in summary this technique is harmful to gliders why?

this is an extreme method why is it detrimental to their over all health?

this is like locking them into a closet and only taking them out when they are good how?

this is like the Stockholm's syndrome (explain in detail how it is even remotely similar with examples

we don't use positive reinforcement (explain)

we use negative reinforcement (explain in detail)

what enrichment toys are removed and explain how they are enrichment and not pouches or pouch like

show on the thread where the gliders are worse off than what they started

show on the thread where the gliders are more stressed than what they started.

show one person on the thread that wasn't getting one on one detailed help.

show where a gliders spirit has been "broken" and not enhanced

show where time and patience is not used by the owners

show where acclimation time is not given to adjust

show where the owners scent is not used as well as familiarity techniques.

Re: bonding method debate [Re: thefotokat] #706495
01/05/09 03:06 PM
01/05/09 03:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
S
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
sugarlope  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
S

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
Read Part 2

Last edited by sugarlope; 01/05/09 03:08 PM. Reason: link

~Gretchen

If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.
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