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Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ] #757428
03/30/09 03:30 AM
03/30/09 03:30 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
JillMarie Offline
Serious Glideritis
JillMarie  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 7,748
New Jersey
wow...so many conflicting views...what fun huh?
I also tried to start collecting info on diets. I tried to start a thread here where people could talk about what they were feeding, how long, and the health of the gliders. Just to get a start on some research...but there was hardly any participation. People go on and say they feed BML, but then PM or email and say ..and I feed this...why? too many on here feel uneasy admitting what they do knowing it will not be received well. no one likes to be spanked, even if the intentions are good.
Laurie (suggiemom) is a good example with what she said here "arent we intelligent enough" I agreed with her sentiments. some of you have NO idea who you are talking to or about. I see so many judgements here and it is sickening. In my other post I tried to be fair to a "mill breeder" because he seems like a nice guy. I am not stupid. I have worked retail all my life. I could sell space heaters to the devil. He knows I will never buy from him, but when someone is willing to discuss diets and breeding and care and will admit they dont know it all and are willing to learn they are one step ahead of those that say "I know it all and you are stupid"
I certainly dont know it all...but this whole line breeding thing was started for the money and it stays for the money. Otherwise they would be priced the same as the greys. that whole...go to a better home thing is silly and just an excuse. so what I can own a grey but not a colored? why because I dont make enough to buy it or because I am a bad glider owner? oh my grey can live here but...I am good enouhg for a grey but not a ....gee...someone call President Lincoln! anyone get that? I mentioned before that I bought 2 greys intending to breed, but when I realized the "homing" problem with rescues...I said NO WAY. how many end up in rescues because they werent the right COLOR? oh my God!
I think some of the "colored" ones are beautiful..but the pricing is crazy, line breeding is wrong, and this whole thread is way to volatile even for me anymore. No one will agree. everyone will do just what they think is right. mill breeders will continue. and I still feel anyone who breeds AND then tries to sell is a mill breeder regardless of the size cage! If your glider doesnt have a 20 foot tree to hang out in eating euc sap you are not taking care of them correctly. Sorry. it's the truth. This is an example of when people say oh its just a little lie. wrong Lie is a lie. Cage is wrong no matter how big. sure we have to keep them in there now, but that is why all breeding needs to just stop. no more gliders in cages. I think that will be a shirt for me. dont stop mills, stop all. One big thing I noticed is you breeeders get the loeys then try to sell, why dont you Have the buyer first? only produce when you have a buyer? better yet. You all should stop breeding and make sure all gliders have good homes. educate those mills and stop this breeding. population control is a good thing.


:grey: Bosom Buddy Creations:grey:
^website link wink

Remember that God Loves You!
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ] #757435
03/30/09 06:21 AM
03/30/09 06:21 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
sugarglidersuz  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
Originally Posted By: 7glider7
Suz, I guess I feel isolated and frustrated in my attempt to gather data because at least GC allowed you to make a sticky of your post so that people would see it and contribute data.

When I requested this, I was rejected. It was suggested that I could simply "put it in my signature" to encourage entries. While I'm sure this would help, it has nowhere near the visiblity of a sticky, or a banner. I was simply told that the mods etc. could only allow so many stickies, and apparently a study about cancer wasn't deemed important enough to make the cut.
Jen, The fact of the matter is that, sticky or not, the participation just isn't there. Truthfully, most people never even look at the stickies in forums. You are actually better off starting a thread and then bumping it up regularly. At least that way, it will get people's attention. Think about it, when was the last time you actually looked at what the sticky topics are? Do you normally just scroll down past them to the regular topics? I know that's what I do. I couldn't even tell you what the various stickies are, even in Breeding & Babies which is where I spend most of my time blush

Originally Posted By: 7glider7
All I have to say is we will continue being in the dark about whether the diets we feed or the breeding practices we promote are causing health issues in our gliders until 1) Glider forums support people with a science background in collecting and analyzing ACTUAL DATA, and 2) people in the community are willing to support the study and put out that data.

Until people are actually going to do a systematic, scientific analysis, all we are doing is whining in the dark and carrying on with no real direction, and it's not going to change anything.
Well said, and very true. So how do the glider forums know whether a person trying to start a study has a scientific background or not? What makes me more qualified to run the joey study than someone else? In my case, I do have a varied background with a strong focus on science, math (statistics) and English - but I never actually finished my college degree. Does that make me qualified, or disqualified? Or is it the fact that I am willing to do the work, to compile the data others give to me?

Sadly, until there is enough interest to get actual grants for studying gliders, there probably will not be a good, scientific study done. That is just the plain, simple truth. Because a scientific study is done in a controlled environment with three or more study groups to compare data from one group to another. Do we really WANT gliders to live in a lab in order for a scientific study to be conducted? Personally, I don't. I'd rather collect data from the general glider community and use "real" data.


Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Sheila] #757482
03/30/09 09:57 AM
03/30/09 09:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline
Glider Slave
thefotokat  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
Originally Posted By: Sheila
People who pay $150-200 for a glider are less likely to have a necropsy done on a year old glider and that is why you are not seeing normal glider's results of necropsys. I believe that health issues with young gliders are no different in colored gliders than normals.The necropsys are just not being done on a normal glider so it is not a fair statement to say that there are more defects. A breeder would have a necropsy done on a glider because they have a responsibility to their clients to report any illnesses.



I disagree that it's the "selling price" that keeps folks from doing necropsies (which are VITAL to our ability to learn more about gliders). Unfortunately, some people have the attitude that necropsies are a waste of money. Death is a fact of life, but it is also an opportunity to learn and perhaps find something that will improve the lives of other gliders. Do the breeders share their necropsy results w/more than just their clients? If not, I encourage them to do so (send to the Necropsy Effort) so that information can be consolidated. That is the only way...sharing info...that we will truly be able to determine what type of issues we're looking at.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: thefotokat] #757494
03/30/09 10:31 AM
03/30/09 10:31 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 282
In
heartlandglider Offline
Glider Explorer
heartlandglider  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 282
In
I have a question. My vet says necropsies on dogs are not reliable and very often are inconclusive. The only one I ever had done I had to keep the puppy cold after it passed and drive a few hours to Ohio State University for the necropsy. Are they able to obtain more reliable info on glider necropsies??


Dianne Kieffer
Heartland Gliders



Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: heartlandglider] #757508
03/30/09 10:57 AM
03/30/09 10:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline
Glider Slave
thefotokat  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
Cause of death can be inconclusive, but there is much more that can be learned from the necropsy. My vet sends in several tissue samples and on 2 occasions were able to send in blood too (when the glider died on the way to the vet). The results of the blood and tissue samples showed the same issues in both cases (liver disease in one and renal disease in the other). The results will not be as good the longer the time between death and necropsy due to the post mortem changes.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: thefotokat] #757511
03/30/09 11:06 AM
03/30/09 11:06 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 282
In
heartlandglider Offline
Glider Explorer
heartlandglider  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 282
In
Time is why my vet says the necropsies are inconclusive. Once an animal is taken to him, he has to send the animal off somewhere else. I could see why in your case it had better results.


Dianne Kieffer
Heartland Gliders



Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: JillMarie] #757517
03/30/09 11:21 AM
03/30/09 11:21 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
H
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict
hwh4ev  Offline
Glider Addict
H

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
in ref. to jill marie,
gliders are here to stay whether they are colored or gray. i dont think you or anyone should label ALL breeders as mill breeders. There are alot of good breeders on this board that do breed responsibly, other breeders that breed sterile lines, bad pairings,etc. are only in it for the money and not the gliders well being.
i think as a buying customer it is our responsibility to check out our breeders and lineage of the joey we want to buy. i have checked out alot of breeders on
this forum and i would not get a joey from some of them if they offered it free.
i have been burned by a breeder and have learned the hard way. I have 2 grays
right now that are spoiled and loved.
i have bred my animals (dogs/birds) all my life and i intend to breed a pair of gliders and yes sell some babies,in the future,i do not consider that as being a mill breeder.
i am getting my girl in april and plan on getting my male in sept. and yes they are colored gliders because that is my choice and NO i dont have a 20' foot tree in my house for my gliders but they are well loved and have my living room to glide, play etc.

regards,
nancy in detroit

Last edited by hwh4ev; 03/30/09 11:29 AM. Reason: add on

regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: hwh4ev] #757538
03/30/09 12:05 PM
03/30/09 12:05 PM

D
DelilahsMom
Unregistered
DelilahsMom
Unregistered
D



Well, I feel that until the skeletons are out of the closet, we aren't going to get anywhere. There are some breeding practices that seasoned and new breeders agree are wrong. But, they are happening. We ALL should have the right to know who is breeding ill gliders. We have alerts, let's use them. Do we all have to go to LGG to get some grain of the truth? I refuse to even consider buying another glider until there is some accountability.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: hwh4ev] #757548
03/30/09 12:34 PM
03/30/09 12:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
Well, I am just getting home and am happy to see this still going. To those who fail to listen when I stated this is not against any particular breeder, well I am sorry. Instead of listening, you want to call me out. That can be done wink I have much to catch up on before I can get back to this, but if you want I will say one thing. If the "seasoned" or original color breeders don't think they have done anything wrong, well this is not true. It was stated how careful you all are in selling your gliders, educating the new owners to the importance of the lines and how clean everything needs to be right? Well obviously there was a failure along the line of educating the importance. All colored gliders can be traced back to you ladies no? Obliviously the typical statement of if one pays more they will do the right thing is false, otherwise there would be no issues.

If breeding out lines is sooo important so they are clean, why wasn't this done before selling such high priced gliders for years knowing they are not clean and others were intending to breed them. Yes I do know know you need to branch out so to speak, but it seems there is only a hand full of ones who had good intent and a bunch more that had different motives. Seems to to me a normal person that the decision was made to sell gliders who are not clean so to speak to whom ever can pass screening and pay the money knowing a good portion of those gliders would/could be breed in a manner not as your own. Those results lead to known or unknown inbreeding that can/may be causing health issues now.

It was a risk, and up till this point has worked.


Lets get back on the topic of what all this line/inbreeding has or can be doing to our gliders health wise.

And to answer the comment

Originally Posted By: KristopherDeRose
Judie GC wont allow us to do so as they have the no drama rule.. and that could cause some problems..



2. Do not post names, phone numbers, addresses, personal email or correspondence without the other parties permission. Due to copyright laws, do not cut and paste articles from another site please use a link instead. Comments of glider related businesses and web sites will be allowed by name as long as the discussion is kept on topic and within reason. Personal bashing will not be tolerated.

The problem is, many in the past seem to talk about personal issues or bring issues from other sites. There is a way to have a discussion about another without breaking the rules. We have done it for years, but others fail to see how we do it. They choice instead to yell, bring in personal issues, etc instead wink


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: gliderdad79] #757554
03/30/09 12:46 PM
03/30/09 12:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline
Glider Slave
thefotokat  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
One problem that I see in getting the info necessary to track the health issues is that it depends on the breeders being open in sharing their statistics. Since money is involved, some may not be willing to give accurate info as to cannibilization, rejected joeys, defects at birth, etc. Also, I don't know if breeders keep in contact w/those who buy from them. If they don't, they cannot know if gliders coming from them are having health issues and dying young. Add to that the amount of gliders that are "resold" w/no records and we are left w/no information.

I agree that those who deliberately continue to use improper practices should be made public. That's hard to do because too many confuse fact w/feelings. The days of not speaking up because of who is involved, friendships, or business deals needs to be gone. As Eddie said, it is possible to do w/out bringing in personal issues...difficult, but possible. Everyone must realize that disagreeing is not a personal insult. Disagreements lead to discussions which leads to learning.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: thefotokat] #757558
03/30/09 12:54 PM
03/30/09 12:54 PM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis
Sheila  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
Originally Posted By: thefotokat
Originally Posted By: Sheila
People who pay $150-200 for a glider are less likely to have a necropsy done on a year old glider and that is why you are not seeing normal glider's results of necropsys. I believe that health issues with young gliders are no different in colored gliders than normals.The necropsys are just not being done on a normal glider so it is not a fair statement to say that there are more defects. A breeder would have a necropsy done on a glider because they have a responsibility to their clients to report any illnesses.



I disagree that it's the "selling price" that keeps folks from doing necropsies (which are VITAL to our ability to learn more about gliders). Unfortunately, some people have the attitude that necropsies are a waste of money. Death is a fact of life, but it is also an opportunity to learn and perhaps find something that will improve the lives of other gliders. Do the breeders share their necropsy results w/more than just their clients? If not, I encourage them to do so (send to the Necropsy Effort) so that information can be consolidated. That is the only way...sharing info...that we will truly be able to determine what type of issues we're looking at.


I am not sure what you are disagreeing with. It looks like by your statement you are agreeing with me. Maybe you misunderstood. When you invest in a mercedez, you go to a mercedez dealer to fix your car. When you invest in a Ford, you might tinker around with it yourself first and if you can't fix it, then you take it to a dealership. How many times do we see people post saying that their baby was not eating good for two days before dieing. They say that they try different foods (trying to fix it themself to save money) and then it still doesn't eat, to find it on the floor of the cage the third morning. The people on these boards will say, take it to the vet immediately because have seen enough of this to know this baby is going to die. The buyer takes a concervative approach because to them investing in a $200 glider, plus cage, food and toys puts them around $500 that they probably couldn't afford anyway or either it was a big stretch for them. It has been past their warranty period with their breeder and they don't know the importance to the rest of the community to have a necropsy. They are not a regular member of one of these boards. They don't have the passion for finding out the cause as many do here.

As far as a breeder and sharing Necropsy's - I had one glider die last year of my own stock and one joey of my clients. I have all colors too. I am not seeing in my gliders, nor with my clients any deaths beyond the norm. Frankly, I don't have the vet bills people are talking about. Last year my bills were less than $1,000 and that was on 60 gliders including Venus. If I have a client that has a sick baby (I have only had one or two of my nine years of breeding) and they call me in time, I talk to them about the importance of the necropsy. I did have two joeys last year that were fed yogurt and were lactose intollerant. With yogurt taken out of the diet, they are healthy. Clients generally don't want their glider cut up, even if I offer to pay for it. Last year was my second death of a joey. The first one was about four years ago. It had been dead for two days. We discussed how normal everything was up until the point of her finding it on the floor of the cage, and I asked her if she changed anything in the diet. She said she had given it pumpkin seeds when she had carved a pumpkin, he jumped right in and started chomping on it. I did some research on pumpkin seeds and saw that small animals can choke on them and more likely if they are stringy and not dried. It said they are fine for dogs and cats, but nothing smaller than a small dog. In that situation since the glider had been dead for two days, there was not much I could do. I had owned 6 generations of this line and had never had a death.

This all brings me to a thought. Why are breeders not being singled out here? Why are all the colored breeders being bunched together in this group. Nancy from Detroit, you did not and I thank you for voicing that. Frankly, this whole thread shocked me because I am not seeing health issues or death here, nor have I ever seen it. If there were health issues, I think it is the buyers responsibility to inform the breeder of any problems. If a breeder does not know of them, then how can they post about findings? If there are anyone here that has purchased a glider from me that is having health issues, please let me know. It is important for me to know as a breeder.

I also want to add this. Many people are upset about the high prices. What you see listed here is not necessarily what they go for. I just had three joeys that are less than two weeks old that were valued at $2400 and should sell for that, sold for $550 total. These people have no idea what they are getting and they are not breeding them so they don't care to know. These were local people wanting pet only. I would rather see my babies go to the right homes- loving homes, than what I see here in the classifieds. Many of the wonderful gliders I have, I don't breed them and many I wait until they are 2.5 to breed them. I am very proud of my gliders and the care they get. I am very proud when I can send a glider to a new home that is well worth the price they paid. I love giving people a good price and a good deal. I know how I feel when I get one. I do love it when I can send a glider home to a loving home and because I am blessed with so many colors, I do feel the need to sell them as normals so that I can experience as a breeder placing that baby in a loving home that is not intended to make money off of it. I am tired of being grouped with money hungry breeders. It is not fair to those like me that are doing the right thing.

I feel very blessed in my life. I have had born here the first platinum - never one before Haley, a new cremino line - wasn't even breeding for it (came out of my albino hets), and a new Leucistic Line (the Magnolia line). None of those gliders are inbred. I am very careful about what people are breeding them to and who they are breeding them with. All of my albino hets are not bred with albino hets. They are either bred with normals and nothing that will produce albinos. I have always bred out and it has been my policy. I only have two pairs of Leu hets together and I haven't gotten a baby from one of them in a year. I have Leu father and son that have been together for two years and never put with a female. I have mosaics 100% het for Leu that were 2.5 born here - and didn't breed them until they were that old. I will breed them a couple of times and retire them. Sure I have a collection of beautiful colors, but I have not chose to breed all of them. I have pets to just like anyone else. I don't have high vet bills, but I work 50+ hours a week because I do everything myself. I spend $1,000's a year on toys. I go to getaways hoping to educate someone because I don't have time to come here and do it on a regular basis. I spend hours a week on the phone with my clients. It is not about just throwing food in a cage. When you are as well known as I am, you get the calls and questions. I may not run a message board, but there is one right on my phone every single day. With all that I do to ensure good quality gliders out there I am insulted by the accusations of this post. It is really not fair to the ones of us that have done the right things to be grouped into this.

While I was writing this Eddie posted. Eddie, I don't know if you have ever studied my breeding program, but when I got Leucistics in the beginning, they were with normal gliders. I did get 16 babies from them before ever putting a Leu with a het to achieve a Leu color. I bred my albino with a Leu and never bred her to a het. I did the right thing! If you are not saying all, the email the ones you think did the right thing so we are not being grouped here cause frankly I am hurt by this.

Kate, if anyone wants to know about my gliders call my vets Dr. Paul Welch and Dr. Lori Friege. They will tell you all you want to know.



Last edited by Sheila; 03/30/09 01:02 PM.

ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: gliderdad79] #757562
03/30/09 01:02 PM
03/30/09 01:02 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Quote:
The results of the blood and tissue samples showed the same issues in both cases (liver disease in one and renal disease in the other).


not directed to even the person making this statement.. just a general statement to all regarding necropsy's and validity of them

although necropsy's may be helpful to some, and even some necropsy's are done even more extensively, you still have to have some one collecting the data, analyzing them and not having people go off half hmmmm.. anyway because it is showing liver and renal problems, first the understanding must be that those are usually secondary symptoms, which are caused by something else, hmmm they are filters folks.. so all you hear is what is causing this liver disease in so many gliders.. more so what should be looked at is what the primary issue is that is leading to the renal failure or liver disease , and you will find it probably has far less to do with genetics, and diets and far more to do with everyday things that we choose not to look so closely at. Like bacterial, toxins and parasites. Aflatoxin is still far more prominent these days than some may think, but the labs will not look for specific toxins unless told exactly which one to look for.

this is where the collection of data from the owners prove very helpful, but again, the majority doesn't want to fill out long questionnaires, and fill out regular forms on a regular basis, for the most part they want answers, answers that some think is going to come overnight or even in our generation. condemnation and ridicule on things that have been found because they don't agree with another's theories is ridiculous.

Far less people are willing to post what is really going on with their gliders, more out of fear, not here on gc, but with the "internet community as a whole. some say it is covering up, some only want to chastise for things that are done wrong. fact is that is important info, that many others also may be doing.

I see people screaming about the diets, have for years, but to this date haven't found substantial proof that anything is wrong with some of them. There are people encouraging people to feed refrigerator diets and have no clue where to even begin to find out if they are even on the right track, let alone, near being healthy. I see people wanting to scrap the wheel and the people who helped make it what it is today and start over from the beginning.. why? why not fix what is broke?

these issues are far too stretching to be covered in this generation or maybe the next.

Each diet, each health issue, each behavioral problem must be gone through with a fine tooth comb.. wanna make a name for yourself, climb on board with any one of these issues and start something.. you will soon see it isn't as easy as some may think, that you have to get far more detailed in each and every aspect, then you have to get participation.

collecting general data, isn't going to get things done, to even look at something like toxin, since toxins is one of so many things that can also lead to liver disease, and renal failure. Everything needs to be questioned, toys, composites, cages, pouches, diets, snacks, environmental factors, air system, plants, other animals, even the area where people live, their soil, their jobs, their soaps, their cleaners, and then the various ingredients of each item, possible allergies, possible illnesses, the seasons, the type of insulation in your home. whether or not your air ductwork has been cleaned or with what, your air system.. etc.. far more encompassing than just,. well must be diet or genetics.

now I guess we don't even need to go into the endless possibilities with bacterial issues. also one of those things that could lead to liver disease and renal failure.

far too general topics, you want answers, grab a pen, and start jotting down any and all possibilities. contrary to common beliefs, NO ONE is perfect, everyone has something wrong somewhere. thing is we just may not know it is wrong yet..


Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Sheila] #757564
03/30/09 01:05 PM
03/30/09 01:05 PM

D
DelilahsMom
Unregistered
DelilahsMom
Unregistered
D



Sheila, you must be really lucky with your vet. A simple exam, nothing more for 60 gliders, would be $2700 at my vet. Add fecals for 60 gliders, $1200. A single neuter is $250. So I see it is quite possible to spend large amounts on vet bills. Especially here, in a large metropolitan city, with 2 exotic vets that do NOT offer discounts on multiples.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Bourbon] #757567
03/30/09 01:11 PM
03/30/09 01:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis
Sheila  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
Thank you Bourbon for your objective opinions.


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Sheila] #757568
03/30/09 01:17 PM
03/30/09 01:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,268
Houston, TX
wclanton423 Offline
Glider Guardian
wclanton423  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,268
Houston, TX
Can someone please educate me to what exactly line breeding is? Is it when you pair two gliders who both have the same lineages somewhere down the line, wheter it is grandparents or great, great, great grandparents who are the same or related?


Whitney

~Southland Sugar Gliders~


Mommy to:
:grey: :rtmo: :leu: :wfb:
my dogs, Duke and Nikki
my cat Puma
my awesome bunny Swayzee

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Sheila] #757570
03/30/09 01:21 PM
03/30/09 01:21 PM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis
Sheila  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
In 9 years I have never had a parasite. I have had one bacteria and that was colstudium and that was 5 years ago. I moved my gliders from inside my house to outside in a room in the garage that we made for them. The humidity was too high and I lost two adults and one baby. I had 5 other gliders that contracted it. The necropsy said, check food source for mold. My dry food got too humid and collected mold on it and that is what caused the whole thing. When I found out what the problem was I put a dehumidifier in there. It pulls 1/2 gallon a day of water out of the air and keeps the humidity between 35-40%. I have never had another issue with it. Other than that incident, I don't have health issues here. I also don't bring many gliders into my home because much of what I have, is born here. My vet charges $150 for a necropsy and $85 for a neuter. I am USDA and he comes here once a year. I occasionally will have fecals done, but have never found anything. $500 of the vet bills were due to Venus last year. The rest were a few fecals and neuters.


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Sheila] #757572
03/30/09 01:31 PM
03/30/09 01:31 PM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis
Sheila  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
I will give you an example of it rather than a scientific term.
Princess was an albino female. I bred her with a normal male and had Lil Bear. I bred Lil Bear with a normal female and had Snowflake. I bred Snowflake with Princess's brother so I bred Snowflake with her great uncle. With all normals being paired to Princess and Lil Bear, it was considered bred out. When breeding her back to her great uncle, it was considered linebreeding. There is only one albino line. Snowflake had two albino boys. One I kept and bred him with two normals. I took those offspring and bred them with either hets further up the line or normals that were unrelated. If it is done right, you will have lots of cages set up with lots of albino hets being bred to normals. That is what linebreeding is The distant offspring is always bred back into the original line, not necessarily the original glider. Hope that helps.


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: gliderdad79] #757574
03/30/09 01:36 PM
03/30/09 01:36 PM

J
jungleflockmom
Unregistered
jungleflockmom
Unregistered
J



So, Eddie, then would it be within GC's rules to post,

"I am considering purchasing a glider from breeder A. The glider's parents are X and Y. If you have joeys from this pair will you please comment on their age, health, and temperament?"

If that is OK, could there be a section on GC for questions such as this? It could be very beneficial to these careful breeders.


Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ] #757611
03/30/09 03:06 PM
03/30/09 03:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
For the first part, yes it is ok to post asking those questions.

As for the second part this sounds good, but Karen and I would need to discuss this and see how to work it.


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: gliderdad79] #757690
03/30/09 05:13 PM
03/30/09 05:13 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
cyndiekb Offline
Serious Glideritis
cyndiekb  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
Wow I have a dog in this race.

Health issues in color gliders.

Sprite (out of Judie's Tia pan and gabby) my white glider died from a bad liver.
What caused this we don't know.


Ace my WFB glider lost weight/hair and when he passed the vet said he was full of cysts. (robin tnrgliders) would have more info as she had him when he passed.

Scooter my leu het His mom (Sheila's) Saleen died when he was just oop from cancer. not sure what kind. I did breed scooter and NOW I know better he is fixed. I really never should have bred him. Hind sight BUT NOW I KNOW.

I had Patches my ring tail mo from sterile lines (out of Judie's Rebbecca and Cameron) in to have his retained testicles removed. I was criticized for having this $500.00 procedure done when Patches was doing just fine. I talked to 3 different vets about Patches and they all said the same thing. His testicles are in his body this can cause cancer. Today my vet found there was NOTHING. There were no sperm tubes or testicles. This is a flaw. The breeding of these lines should be stopped. We NOW KNOW THIS.

Lee my WFB had a heart issue. I did not know this till the first set of joeys died before they were 1 year oop. By this time I had 2 more sets from them. One of the girls Rory (Kara I forget her name here) told me her necropsy showed her blood vessel going to the heart was to small. That was when we stopped breeding Lee and Alora. This should not continue to be passed on.

BUT

GUESS WHAT

it doesn't stop there...



NOT JUST FOR COLORS

Binx a classic grey from Miami Fl was born with neurological problems. He was a happy glider and did not know he was not "normal". He died way to early and we still miss him. The person who bred his parents continued to breed her pair even after Binx.


This is wrong. This is the mentality we must stop. Do not breed gliders that are not 100%. Just because it doesn't affect your glider today. The glider and owners of the offspring pay the ultimate price. Many people are destroying the gliders with bad breeding habits. Reevaluate you programs and adjust accordingly BECAUSE WE NOW KNOW. There is no excuse to continue bad habits this long. What was ok 4 years ago, last year, last month are not ok now. NOW IS THE TIME TO FIX IT.

I have done my part I do not breed at all anymore. I feel we do not deserve these great furbabies and yes I am emotional and sensitive today. I was told by my vet Patches has the worst liver of any living animal he has ever seen. I will lose my baby. This confirms 3 liver damaged gliders and I suspect a 4th in my home. WE DID THIS TO THESE GUYS. Now we have to find out how and fix it!


cyndiekb

I heart & miss you HALEY

My runaways 4/04 Lilo, 5/04 Dash & Angel

angel Sprite Says GO STEALTH!! at
AtticWorx
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: cyndiekb] #757699
03/30/09 05:31 PM
03/30/09 05:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Cyndie hug2 I wish I could have done that over the phone with you today also...many hugs to you, and thank you for coming to post.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: cyndiekb] #757700
03/30/09 05:31 PM
03/30/09 05:31 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
I am sorry for your losses Cyndie. My whole post her was not directed towards anyone as I have stated a few times, and I thank you for sharing what you know. It helps support what I am trying to achieve and that is what is line/inbreeding of color gliders doing to the gliders.

My thoughts and prayers are with you and patches hug2


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: gliderdad79] #757701
03/30/09 05:33 PM
03/30/09 05:33 PM

L
Leyna
Unregistered
Leyna
Unregistered
L



Eddie, what's to say that line breeding/inbreeding is the cause of those gliders deaths? Cyndie didn't even include their lineages... There are gliders of color out there that are not linebred or inbred at all...

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: cyndiekb] #757709
03/30/09 05:44 PM
03/30/09 05:44 PM

S
suggiemom
Unregistered
suggiemom
Unregistered
S



ANY animal that is EVER bred should be done with the intention of Enhancing that species. Not for money, not for color and certainly not when there are known or suspected issues.

I used to breed dalmations and sold all puppies with a health guarantee. Someone bought a BEAUTIFUL pup, probably the prettiest one I'd ever seen, and it turned out that she was deaf (a common occurance in Dalmations).

They didn't want to return her and I ended up giving them a partial refund, but should have refused to refund and demanded the puppy back because they kept her with the intention of breeding. I was young and inexperienced with dealing with people and didn't put a stop to it like I should have. So, they were going to continue breeding a defective dog regardless of what I or mine or their vet thought of it.

I don't know much about Judy so this is in no way a jab at her, but just looking back at some of these posts, it seems that a couple of the gliders with "defects" just from Cyndie's gliders have originated somewhere with Judy's gliders. Are they all out of the same line, or multiple lines and is there something environmental going on that might be contributing to her having a higher occurance of these things? Is it something she needs to look into further?

I'm not sure why some of the breeders are being so defensive or getting their feelings hurt here (maybe because I am NOT a breeder). If you have stellar breeding practices then none of this should be offensive. It should be something we all strive to understand and learn more about for the betterment of all gliders and if certain breeders realize that something they're doing needs to be changed, that's a good thing.

We've already seen where one breeder is intending to intentionally breed mosaics from a sterile line just so others can have cheap gliders and she can make a quick buck. See, we learn new things from these posts and that's what it's about isn't it? Learning and growing? I've learned that when I'm in the market to purchase a glider, there are several breeders I'll be taking off of my list and a few new names that will go on that list.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ] #757710
03/30/09 05:45 PM
03/30/09 05:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
I didnt say it IS but it can and could be. As my first posts states. If the parents carry deficiencies such as iron over load and is inbred, those deficiencies are also inbred producing the deficiencies in the offspring in greater levels than the parents.


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ] #757711
03/30/09 05:48 PM
03/30/09 05:48 PM

S
SugarGliderCandy
Unregistered
SugarGliderCandy
Unregistered
S



Cyndie, that's so sad. Nobody should have to lose so many babies! NO matter what color they are frown

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ] #757714
03/30/09 05:51 PM
03/30/09 05:51 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
cyndiekb Offline
Serious Glideritis
cyndiekb  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
Binx was from an unrelated standard grey pair as far as we know. Inbreeding was happening in the greys before the colors. Bottom line, we do know better NOW even if we didn't before. I am with you Eddie it has to stop no matter the color.

I am sure I contributed to the problem at some point just in ignorance alone. The easiest decision I ever made was to stop contributing and fix all my boys. For those that want to continue to breed they have the hard part they have to find good lines and breed with your brains. The health of the gliders has to come before ANYTHING ELSE.

Suggiemom I have had a few other gliders from Judie all were WFB or BEW, BEW hets. Ace and Sprite were the only ones I know 100% had health issues. Sprite was out of Judie's but she had 2 homes between me and Judie. SO this is why I say we need to find out how/what is causing the liver problems. Is it from the diets, the environment, or the genes? I can't say Judie did anything at all it could have been me, my diet, meds for the tric I just don't know. I can say I have had some most wonderful gliders from her. Patches is the most fav but that is probably because I promised to love him forever. Judie was worried no one would love him because of his sterility. She cared enough to find someone that does. Just like Sheila I can't tell you how many times she has held my hand through some glider issue or another. Helped with pairings and been there even when I needed to cry about Sprite when I didn't get her from Sheila.

I know mistakes were made in the past. That is how we learn. I can not imagine someone wanting to breed sterile lines so people can have cheap Mo's. There is no such thing when you weigh in any health risk unless you don't plan to take that cheap glider to the vet in which case you should NOT have one anyway!

My mother who does not like gliders just said over my shoulder if you can't afford it you can't afford to take care of it so don't get it. Wow this from the one who complains about my vet bills...


cyndiekb

I heart & miss you HALEY

My runaways 4/04 Lilo, 5/04 Dash & Angel

angel Sprite Says GO STEALTH!! at
AtticWorx
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ] #757719
03/30/09 05:58 PM
03/30/09 05:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
I can only assume why some are being so defensive. 99% of the time especially when a group or person is not called out by name and gets defensive their is something to hide.

I truly hope more will come forward like Cyndie did. Not to ruin a breeding program or some ones reputation, but so we can link what is going on with the gliders. If this waiting any longer there may be no stopping or reducing the amount of issues we see in the near future or long term.

We need to know as much as we can in all aspects. As I stated in my first post. A diet could have been the source that started a deficiency, but in/linebreeding could be what has metastasized so many health issues.


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: cyndiekb] #757720
03/30/09 05:58 PM
03/30/09 05:58 PM

S
suggiemom
Unregistered
suggiemom
Unregistered
S



Quote:
I am sure I contributed to the problem at some point just in ignorance alone. The easiest decision I ever made was to stop contributing and fix all my boys. For those that want to continue to breed they have the hard part they have to find good lines and breed with your brains. The health of the gliders has to come before ANYTHING ELSE.


Well said.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: sugarglidersuz] #757721
03/30/09 05:58 PM
03/30/09 05:58 PM

7
7glider7
Unregistered
7glider7
Unregistered
7



Originally Posted By: sugarglidersuz

So how do the glider forums know whether a person trying to start a study has a scientific background or not? What makes me more qualified to run the joey study than someone else? In my case, I do have a varied background with a strong focus on science, math (statistics) and English - but I never actually finished my college degree. Does that make me qualified, or disqualified? Or is it the fact that I am willing to do the work, to compile the data others give to me?

Sadly, until there is enough interest to get actual grants for studying gliders, there probably will not be a good, scientific study done. That is just the plain, simple truth. Because a scientific study is done in a controlled environment with three or more study groups to compare data from one group to another. Do we really WANT gliders to live in a lab in order for a scientific study to be conducted? Personally, I don't. I'd rather collect data from the general glider community and use "real" data. [/color]


Suz, I think you are more than qualified to run a study hug2 I hope this isn't what you thought I meant. I am just incredibly frustrated that people want to talk and gossip and basically just parrot information on to the next person, but there is little to no support to gathering data in a systematic manner, which would actually be informative. All I meant is that someone would need to gather data and be able to analyze it in an appropriate way.

I actually think a scientific study of gliders in labs WOULDN'T be very helpful. They would simply be too stressed for us to achieve non-biased data. Some animals, like rats, do just fine in labs. Gliders are not an animal where you could put them in a standard lab setting and gather unbiased data. I know of only one study that I've read of gliders in a lab setting (the one on diet about a year back), and that one is even of questionable validity because the sample size was so small and the gliders were so stressed.

I think to have quality information we will have to gather data about gliders in peoples' homes...what they are feeding, how much, and the lineage of their glider. No, it is not as scientific as a lab study. There are many variables we cannot control. But we may be able to find correlations between certain diets and/or certain lineages and certain health problems. This would be very helpful to know. Our increased knowledge of glider diet and HLP and lumpy jaw and the other health problems mentioned on this thread were not by scientific studies in labs. They were made by groups of people communicating with their vets and then back to the forum in an evidence-based way. We need a grassroots approach like this to re-examine our diets and breeding.

We we all know the funding for a large lab study will probably NEVER be there because there aren't enough glider owners out there to make the studies profitable, so nobody is going to invest in it. It's not like pharmaceutical studies on animals that go towards drugs for people, or studies of diet in dogs where they will make $$$ off of dog food. There is no profit to doing it, so nobody will fund it.

I think there needs to be a massive paradigm shift in attitude on forums. There needs to be a shift for people to want to participate in studies and actually care about the DATA in the choices they make for their glider husbandry, rather than just going on what they read on a chat forum and parroting it along to the next person.

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