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Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Bourbon] #757732
03/30/09 06:23 PM
03/30/09 06:23 PM

7
7glider7
Unregistered
7glider7
Unregistered
7



Originally Posted By: Bourbon


although necropsy's may be helpful to some, and even some necropsy's are done even more extensively, you still have to have some one collecting the data, analyzing them and not having people go off half hmmmm.. anyway because it is showing liver and renal problems, first the understanding must be that those are usually secondary symptoms, which are caused by something else, hmmm they are filters folks.. so all you hear is what is causing this liver disease in so many gliders.. more so what should be looked at is what the primary issue is that is leading to the renal failure or liver disease , and you will find it probably has far less to do with genetics, and diets and far more to do with everyday things that we choose not to look so closely at. Like bacterial, toxins and parasites. Aflatoxin is still far more prominent these days than some may think, but the labs will not look for specific toxins unless told exactly which one to look for.
now I guess we don't even need to go into the endless possibilities with bacterial issues. also one of those things that could lead to liver disease and renal failure.



I'm sorry, I'm going to have to disagree.

You are right that the liver and kidneys are filters. If they are going into failure, this is a huge indicator that diet might be a factor. The most recent study that came out that compared BML to 1 or 2 other diets stated concerns that there is probably *way more vitamins* than needed for a glider in some of our diets. I understand the problem in the past was too little vitamins and minerals and there were problems with HLP. But I wonder if perhaps we are overcompensating. It's the liver and kidneys' job to filter out things like this. If you are giving an animal way too many vitamins and minerals, then that would tax...hmmm, yup, the filters in the body, like the liver and kidneys, which are working overtime to filter that stuff out.

I think this is a red flag that diet could be an issue. I think we owe it to our gliders to gather more data as a community to find out.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ] #757735
03/30/09 06:25 PM
03/30/09 06:25 PM

L
Leyna
Unregistered
Leyna
Unregistered
L



Eddie I hope you aren't implying that I have something to hide, am doing something unethical, or am not operating in the best interest of the gliders...

Any defensiveness I'm showing is in regards to the assumptions being made and the misinformation being passed on in this post. As I stated in my first post in this topic, there were several incorrect assumptions made initially in this post, starting with accusing every color breeder of inbreeding/linebreeding.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ] #757736
03/30/09 06:25 PM
03/30/09 06:25 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Originally Posted By: suggiemom
We've already seen where one breeder is intending to intentionally breed mosaics from a sterile line just so others can have cheap gliders and she can make a quick buck.


???

Ummm...perhaps you should re-read what I wrote... I'm not in any way out to make a "quick buck". I dont know what you have against me Laurie, but don't try and make me out to be something I am not...


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ] #757744
03/30/09 06:39 PM
03/30/09 06:39 PM

A
AmyLynn
Unregistered
AmyLynn
Unregistered
A



I know with my gray girl Momma (I took her and her mate and joeys from my sister) Her HLP was due to her diet. And I buy organic fruits and veggies for them from Mustard Seed. I just spent $40 today for fruits and veggies. I try to to what I think is best for them. But honestly I do not know if what I feed them is good enough. I have two over weight gliders who love their meal worms and pig out on them. They will not eat the BML so now I am going to try Priscilla's diet. I think I could now be the cause as to them being over weight. Because I give into them when they bark at me for more food. But I have to change this for the well being of my gliders. I think diet has alot to do with things. They are not getting the food that they would normally get in the wild. And we just do not know alot about these wonderful animals. We all try to do what we think is best. But maybe what we are doing is just not good enough. So for my part I am logging down what diet I have fed and what toys I put in their cages, if anything changes with their behavior etc. It will be alot of work but I am going to do whatever it takes so I can keep my babies healthy. And maybe I will come across something that will help the glider community. Also if the gliders were fed a correct diet we would not need supplements.

Last edited by AmyLynn; 03/30/09 06:42 PM.
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ] #757745
03/30/09 06:44 PM
03/30/09 06:44 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
sugarglidersuz Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
sugarglidersuz  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,788
Cleveland, Ohio
Originally Posted By: 7glider7
Suz, I think you are more than qualified to run a study hug2 I hope this isn't what you thought I meant. I am just incredibly frustrated that people want to talk and gossip and basically just parrot information on to the next person, but there is little to no support to gathering data in a systematic manner, which would actually be informative. All I meant is that someone would need to gather data and be able to analyze it in an appropriate way.
No, it isn't what I thought you meant. I was just clarifying where I am personally coming from. All's well hug2

Originally Posted By: 7glider7
I actually think a scientific study of gliders in labs WOULDN'T be very helpful. They would simply be too stressed for us to achieve non-biased data. Some animals, like rats, do just fine in labs. Gliders are not an animal where you could put them in a standard lab setting and gather unbiased data. I know of only one study that I've read of gliders in a lab setting (the one on diet about a year back), and that one is even of questionable validity because the sample size was so small and the gliders were so stressed.
I agree with you 100% on this. I don't think a lab environment would work for gliders at all, just wanted to point out that in order to run a "scientific study" in the true sense, that is what would be necessary frown Not a good plan with gliders shakehead

Originally Posted By: 7glider7
I think to have quality information we will have to gather data about gliders in peoples' homes...what they are feeding, how much, and the lineage of their glider. No, it is not as scientific as a lab study. There are many variables we cannot control. But we may be able to find correlations between certain diets and/or certain lineages and certain health problems. This would be very helpful to know. Our increased knowledge of glider diet and HLP and lumpy jaw and the other health problems mentioned on this thread were not by scientific studies in labs. They were made by groups of people communicating with their vets and then back to the forum in an evidence-based way. We need a grassroots approach like this to re-examine our diets and breeding.

We we all know the funding for a large lab study will probably NEVER be there because there aren't enough glider owners out there to make the studies profitable, so nobody is going to invest in it. It's not like pharmaceutical studies on animals that go towards drugs for people, or studies of diet in dogs where they will make $$$ off of dog food. There is no profit to doing it, so nobody will fund it.

I think there needs to be a massive paradigm shift in attitude on forums. There needs to be a shift for people to want to participate in studies and actually care about the DATA in the choices they make for their glider husbandry, rather than just going on what they read on a chat forum and parroting it along to the next person.
Again, I agree 100% clap


Suz Enyedy
:bb: Carina & Coobah
Allira & Gizmo :grey:
:grey: Picasso, Trinity Joy & Luna
:rbridge: DaisyMae; Darwin; Mareki; Mambo; Pika; Cricky; Reggie & Bobo, Pepe & Bittah


Suz' Sugar Gliders
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Guerita135] #757746
03/30/09 06:46 PM
03/30/09 06:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Well, I for one know that I am NOT defensive in the least bit here. Not to long ago I was actually accused of just being against certain colors because one glider should not be bred due to her health issues that will remain with her all her life. Her owner did the RIGHT thing for her and has her living her life out with a neutered male, but others still think I just have something against certain gliders being bred. And yep, I do. If you have all these different vets from different states saying that a glider should not be bred because of genetic issues, than maybe they are throwing you up a red flag. But because there havent been any found in *gliders* as of yet, it is called *crazy* for thinking such things could happen, and then you hear well just because you see it in ferrets dont mean it is going to happen in gliders.

Yes, I also had a trio that I discovered were just a bit *too close* of line breeding after they already had joeys. This was totally MY fault as I did not have the lineage correct. I seperated them, got the male neutered and put them back together.

Once again I will ask, who has these joeys that are showing so many illnesses right now, because I personally would like to know if they are related to any of mine. I can guarantee, if they were, the breeding of whatever pair they originated from would be put to a stop, if they were still breeding anyway.

How can we stop a line breeding if there are problems coming out of it if we are not told?

(Edited to say I mean stop a *pair* from breeding, not as in line breeding)


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Guerita135] #757751
03/30/09 06:51 PM
03/30/09 06:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Originally Posted By: Guerita135
Originally Posted By: suggiemom
We've already seen where one breeder is intending to intentionally breed mosaics from a sterile line just so others can have cheap gliders and she can make a quick buck.


???

Ummm...perhaps you should re-read what I wrote... I'm not in any way out to make a "quick buck". I dont know what you have against me Laurie, but don't try and make me out to be something I am not...


Nicole I don't think Laurie is referring to any personal issue she may or may not have with you. Your pairing of Nadine to Diego is WRONG. You may not see a problem as Katarina doesn't seem to think it's wrong either. But I'm telling you that it is wrong! Why is is wrong?

1) Nadine is from a sterile line she is also a 25% leu het.
2) Diego is a 100% PROVEN leu het.

The pairing of these two gliders will only cause damage to the Leu lines and the glider popluation as a whole. I happen to understand why they are paired together. The goal is to produce gliders that have lots of white. You can not however convince me in ANY way this is right!


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Adri] #757755
03/30/09 06:58 PM
03/30/09 06:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
Lets not turn this into a personal issue towards anyone please. Leyna, no I was not saying that. As a matter of fact I don't see you being defensive in your posts at all.

Even though this post was made to try and make awareness of the possible issues in/line breeding can cause, maybe other posts will spark like Cyndie's did and we can start linking to a source or sources and try and get it stopped.


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: gliderdad79] #757773
03/30/09 07:26 PM
03/30/09 07:26 PM

S
suggiemom
Unregistered
suggiemom
Unregistered
S



No, this is nothing personal Nicole. I was just responding to a post that you made. I just find it interesting that someone who is very quick to point out the "issues" of other breeders would be breeding a sterile line glider for "friends". Especially you Nicole. Some one who meticulously pays attention to other people's lineages, etc., and has no issue pointing out the error of their ways, and yet; you're admittedly going to breed gliders that you of all people know should not be bred.

Funny how it's ok when it suits a personal agenda I guess.

Leyna, I think you're answers and posts have been very well thought out and helpful. I think this is a great topic and for someone such as myself who is considering whether or not to have a breeding pair, it's a definite eye opener and learning experience.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ] #757775
03/30/09 07:41 PM
03/30/09 07:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis
Sheila  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
I think it would be good if Judie would post a history of the gliders she has had. She has owned colors and normals together longer than anyone. She had normals for about as much time as she has had colors. Hopefully she will see this and post some of her records.
Cyndie I am sorry but you cannot be objective if you post all of your gliders that have had issues if you only have colored gliders. Being a breeder of all colors including normsls gives you more exposure to gliders because you see their offspring develop(you keep a lot of your own). You have had a few joeys, but not of the magnitude of larger breeders. When a glider has changed home two or three times, the original breeder cannot be responsible for all the health issues especially if there has been wide spread sickness in your groups.
I am sorry about Patches. I know how much you love him. I have tried calling you twice today.


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Sheila] #757791
03/30/09 08:11 PM
03/30/09 08:11 PM

D
DelilahsMom
Unregistered
DelilahsMom
Unregistered
D



And, along with introducing sterility into good lines, we have people admittedly breeding leu to leu. I have heard, and don't know it to be true, but other people are doing it as well but won't admit it.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Sheila] #757792
03/30/09 08:12 PM
03/30/09 08:12 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
Quote:

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to disagree.

You are right that the liver and kidneys are filters. If they are going into failure, this is a huge indicator that diet might be a factor. The most recent study that came out that compared BML to 1 or 2 other diets stated concerns that there is probably *way more vitamins* than needed for a glider in some of our diets. I understand the problem in the past was too little vitamins and minerals and there were problems with HLP. But I wonder if perhaps we are overcompensating. It's the liver and kidneys' job to filter out things like this. If you are giving an animal way too many vitamins and minerals, then that would tax...hmmm, yup, the filters in the body, like the liver and kidneys, which are working overtime to filter that stuff out.

I think this is a red flag that diet could be an issue. I think we owe it to our gliders to gather more data as a community to find out.


Things like aflatoxin, molds, pesticides, bacterias, toxins from compounds in toys etc although ingested is commonly mis-referenced as being the diet itself. As for the diet study, that study proved nothing except that further studies need to be done.

when you have 3 complete different diets and the results are very similar, has to make you think a bit. ranging from the bml, to a diet that had very little if any calcium. I am not saying the BML may not need tweaked or fixed a bit, there just hasn't been any proof yet that it does. so no I will not defend the BML in this thread, but the point of my post was that there are numerous things that can cause liver problems and renal failure, and many things that can be contributed to it, not just diet.

renal failure and liver failure is affected when a glider goes septic, whether it is from bacteria, or a number of other things. Aflatoxin poisoning, looks like if not causes cirrhosis of the liver, so yes there is many things that can cause those results to show up on a necropsy.

also to add, the bml uses much less vitamins and minerals that are actually stored in the liver than most other diets.

Last edited by Bourbon; 03/30/09 08:14 PM. Reason: added last paragraph
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Bourbon] #757840
03/30/09 09:08 PM
03/30/09 09:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis
Judie  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Ok. Since I am a vereran breeder here goes....

I have bred gliders for well over twelve years. Half of which were gray colored gliders.

My first three gliders I purchased from a Pet Store. All babies and not at the same time. Back at the time I did not own a computer so as to diet my three babies were fed the Carolyn McPearson diet. My knowledge at the time was limited to her little book that is still being published.

Close to three years later.... I purchased 18 little babies. Half came from OutBack Pets and the other half from Helen Morreno. All of these babies I took to Dr.Bradley to have fecals and wellness exam done. There was an unidenitifoed parasite so everyone was administered Panacure followed with a secomd dose a week later. All of the babie becom ill within a week and back to the vet. Stress so the vet says... so all are now on Flagyl. Out of the eighteen babies all are well within a week or so, xcept for one female. She was ill on off for a couple of months. I keept taking her back to the vet the Dx was she was so little and my vet said Mother Nature was not so kind to her. But with my persistance and her will to live she did get well. This little glider's name was Peanut due to her small size.

Six months later I applied for a USDA license.

A few years later I updated my cages to a current standard size which are 3 ft tall x 2 feet long which were the PVC cages by Martain Cage Works. The ones that I had orig purchased were too small. Remember, I did not know any breeders at that time nor did I ever see how a proper cage setup. I just felt that the housing I orig purchased for the 18 babies from OutBack Pets was too small and it was and was very noticable when the babies became parents. However... the cages were PVC coated. During this time period... I found a website... the ISGA board and I became a member there and then eventually that board fell apart a year and half later. In my search... I found sugargliderr.com, of which at the time was not owned by Eric Colemam. Not too long after that I found sugarglider.net when Clair owned Glider Central. It was durin this time I did a diet swith to the Modified Leadbeaters that would be better for my gliders and offspring.

When I updated my cages... I lost my very first glider. His name was Gremlin and he was about two years old. Dispite my efforts to save him in a four day period of being severrely ill... I lost him. I had a terrible time getting over his death for several yesrs. I sttribiterd his death due to stress from the cages being changed out. No nucropsy was done as I was filled with grief. I was responsible for my gliders health and dispite six vet visits in for days I felt like a complete failure. Someone told me once... by writing a story about myu little glider it may help me come to grips with myslef so the healing process could begin. Thus I wrote a story about My Little Gremlin which was posted in Real Stories here on Glider Central whem Clair owned it. It later was moved to Bourbon's site and not sure if it is still there. I do have a copy of it though on my website. I also named my Website My Little Gremlim after this little glider.

Have to go do dinner and my left arm is throbing at this time.. but I will be back to work on this lengthy post so stay tuned.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Judie] #757856
03/30/09 09:36 PM
03/30/09 09:36 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Karin Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Karin  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Not to get this post off topic, as it is in some parts, but not true Bourbon. The diet study did show high levels of iron in the 3 diets studied. Higher than what is considered even close to normal.

Karin


Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Karin] #757902
03/30/09 11:23 PM
03/30/09 11:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 43,248
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Online /gc/lgc
Owner
KarenE  Online /Gc/Lgc
Owner

Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 43,248
LittleRock, AR USA
I was there too, KarIn, when the results were presented, and you are correct. Iron levels being too high in all three diets were a concern.

But, as you pointed out, that is a discussion for a different venue.


Your Sugar Glider Resource Center
Sugar Glider Help


Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Karin] #757903
03/30/09 11:24 PM
03/30/09 11:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,594
Youngstown, Ohio
TheGliderPlayroom Offline
Glider Slave
TheGliderPlayroom  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,594
Youngstown, Ohio
I was a little dumbfounded by this topic when it first started. I got my first glider in 1997, my first WF probably about 2004, and been breeding colors for almost 5 years (first WFs, then leu and leu hets, now creamino). Since I got back into owning gliders in 2003, I have had one death, due to cancer. I have had 46 joeys; none rejected or cannibalized, one set of twins that were supplemented because Mom stressed out from a known situation. I've had two very small mating wounds that didn't need more than just time to heal. So... I honestly am not seeing all the problems that this thread was started about.

One thing for sure that I WILL change. After reading Cyndie's posts, I will be changing my joey sales contract. I will be adding a clause that states that if any genetic defects are found in the parents that could or would be passed down, they agree to stop breeding immediately/not breed the joey. I never really considered it before, but I'd rather add it and be safe than get caught in a bad situation.

I know for sure of 3 of my joeys that have died after they went on to their new homes. One was dehydration; his owner had them on a bus trip and didn't give them enough water. The other two were twins and died from overheating/suffocation.


Helen
The Glider Playroom
PSG/Sugar Glider Database
Vice-President of the NE.O.B.B.C.
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: TheGliderPlayroom] #757905
03/30/09 11:28 PM
03/30/09 11:28 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
Originally Posted By: TheGliderPlayroom

One thing for sure that I WILL change. After reading Cyndie's posts, I will be changing my joey sales contract. I will be adding a clause that states that if any genetic defects are found in the parents that could or would be passed down, they agree to stop breeding immediately/not breed the joey. I never really considered it before, but I'd rather add it and be safe than get caught in a bad situation.


clap Thank you, if this is the only action my post makes at least it is one step closer to cleaning things up than it was a good thing. Thank you!!!


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: cyndiekb] #757925
03/31/09 12:25 AM
03/31/09 12:25 AM

J
jungleflockmom
Unregistered
jungleflockmom
Unregistered
J



The Sugar Group is about more than necropsies. They are working to quantify many aspects of individual glider health.

Please click on the link on the banner on page 1 of this thread, and participate in their study.

We can't just complain about not having quantifiable info when they are compiling data as submitted and will request further data in the future.

Be a part of the solution!

[Cyndie, I entered this in the first page "quick reply". It is not "re:CKB"]

Last edited by jungleflockmom; 03/31/09 12:29 AM.
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Judie] #757926
03/31/09 12:29 AM
03/31/09 12:29 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis
Judie  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
During my five or six years with Standard Gray colored gliders the diet went through another change. The Modified diet now was called the BML diet and it had Two jars of baby Chicken were now used, and the Rep-Cal was increrased to two teaspoons and the Herptivite multi vitamim was of one teaspoon was now added. This for my gliders was very difficult to feed as most of my gliders would not eat it.

I had been using another multi vitamin to the modified leadbeaters for a couple of years which did not leave a taste to it when blemded. It took me almost a year as to how to my gliders onto the BML. I modified the BML of which I still feed today.

It is shortly after this time... I impliment a neutering plan for my little male offspring. People who were irresponsible were now rehoming the males or asking me to rehome multi gliders or sell their offspring due to lack of time to have the male neutered or were afraid to have a vet neuter. This became a big conflict of interest... so I make the decision to neuter before the little male glider left my home at my own expense.
Also, it made sence to this as requests seemed to alwaus be for females which made placemet of the little males difficult. And with 75% of my offspring seemingly being males... I now was able to do more placememts for my little boys.

Now, as my gliders are aging I begin to aquire my first WF Blonde and named him Sandman. Two years later I purchase another glider... and he arrives sick. I called Sandride and told him the baby was ill and was told to feed Apple. Now, I must say... that did not sit well with me so I take the baby to the vet. vet cannot see anything... so for five dayd I take this sick baby to the vet... and what do we finally find is Gerida. Baby was treated amd after a month or so... he is introduced to a healthy female in my glider room. About three weeks later... I am feeding my glidrrs... and this young pair come dowm to eat from the side of their cage. I notice the male and female look ill and the tummy was wet on the female. I take the gliders to the vet the following morning and the vet tells me the male is chalked full of gerida and the female has it too. Now panic sets in... I have exposed all of my gliders to this parasite. 15 pairs of gliders and about 15 babies. Now I have to medicate all twice a day for 7 days for three rounds in order to kill any maturing eggs that hatch inbetween the 21 days of being on the flagel This is the only time I have had Gerida and as far as I know... no others were contamimated but were treated due to possible contamination issues among my other healthy gliders. This I have to say was a breeder's nightmare and I certainly did not want Geerida to raise it's ugly head again. Since that time I have not had to experience Giardia again in my gliders.

Now, I gradualy make the transition over to colored gliders which took several years. I rehome my tame gray gliders one pair at a time with males neutered. One boy named Taz who is about six and half years or so... comes back to me after six months. The girl is unable to care for him. He arrives on Sat and on Sunday I see that he has consumed copious amount of water. I take him into the vet on Monday... and the vet askes me to bring him back on Tuesday to their other clinic in Raytown. This I do.. but because I am upset about this little guy... I leave him home in a container and pouch in my iitchen on the island. I return a hour later and the vet proceeds with with Ultra Sound. I watch... while Taz is sedated. The test shows a spot on his liver and the bile ducts to his gall bladder are blocked. The vet tells me the spot on the liver under the bile ducts could be from a viral or bacterial infection. I make the decision to have Tas put to sleep while still sedatederd so he will not suffer further pain. I know his abdomen will eventually rupture as nothing inside his GI tract is allowed to move. I knew this would be a sad day and it was. Necropsy said a bacterial infection in the bile ducts and liver. Nucropsy inconclusive.

As to further illnesses, Sesamie became ill when she fist had babies with ShyBaby. Two white twins... Tai Pan and Chi. Sesamie amd ShyBaby are both taken to Dr. Bradley. Sesmaie has a stress related illness.. as her normal bacterial count is elevated. She is seen by Bradley every week for a month and on meds during that time. Bradley tells me not to pull the babies as this will create more stress on Sesamie so the babies are left with her. I have to hand feed Sesamie the BML and not worry about fruits or veggies and supplement the babies during that entire month. This is the only time Sesamie has been ill. Stress as attributed to ShyBaby not wanting to stay with the babies when Sesamie would leave to feed and run in her wheell. After those two babies... ShyBaby became a great father to his offspring. It was just with the first set of babies did he not know he was to babysit his babies when Sesamie left thier sleeping pouch. This pair of gliders were the best parents. And their babies together were sooo sweet. Sesamie and ShyBaby no longer have babies since Sesamie is almost six years old and ShyBaby has been neutered so they still reside together to this day. This is probably one set of gliders that I can honestly say appear to love each other. When out and about in their cage... they greet each other with ShyBaby rubbing on Sesamie. Sesamie will proceed to grab ShyBaby's shoulders with both of her little hands and rub herself under his chin. How I wish my other gliders were so affectionat towards each other.

All goes well for a another couple more years... and I loose another Gray female. She died at the vets office and I request a necropsy... she died from fluid in her plural lining around her heart. Plural Pnu... which was brought about by a normal bacteria... that was not kept in check by her immune system. Baytil would havr treated the illness but I do not notice a problem till it is too late.

to be continued as I am late freding my glidrrs.


Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: gliderdad79] #757928
03/31/09 12:33 AM
03/31/09 12:33 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,843
Lisle, Illinois
SugareeErin Offline
Glider Addict
SugareeErin  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,843
Lisle, Illinois
In my new contract I have a clause that the buyer must notify me of any health problems or genetic problems and of offspring produced. I think this would be good for all breeders.



:leu: Sugaree Gliders :rtmo:


Simba, Nala, Rain, Snow & Sugaree

Shadowdancer, Sugar Magnolia, Sunshine Daydream, Winter, Twinkle, Twilight, Everlette, Sparkle, Polar Bear, Indigo & Willow








Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Judie] #757958
03/31/09 04:09 AM
03/31/09 04:09 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis
Judie  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
A few years ago or maybe four I sold a BEW to Brandy Stanton. She and her family drive up here from Texas and arrived early evening to pic up a white boy she named Montana. It is during time of my yearly MidWest gathering here at my home so they only stayed briefly. They take the little white boy with them and had planned on driving straight back home. Well things change on thier return trip back back to Dallas. Being tired, they decide to spend the night in a motel. A few days go by... and I get a phone call. Montana is sick. She tells me she has been to her vet and that the boy is sick with clostridum a fungal type illness whis is spread by mold spores. I tell her that is impossible and I suggest she take the baby to another more specialized vet. She then is told by the second vet that her boy has a type food poisioning. I tell her I will have Sesamie and ShyBaby and the sister rechecked again(as I had already taken them to the vet the very next day to be checked even though they were not sick). This time I requested C&S's from each family member. A week later my Cultures along with results were back and they tested negative. So this little white baby somehow became ill between my home and their drive home from food. Montana did recover after much care from Brandi. Since then he produced many babies but has been rehomed and I am not sure who owns him now.

Brandi was the first person who ever contacted me over a baby being ill. The drove to Kansas City amd back to Dallas to pick was done save on monies. She later told me had she had to do over again... she would have rathered I had shipped him to her.

Following year about a week or so before the SGGA... I have a leu het named Maggie who is ill and has tiny babies. I take her to the vet and DX is a bacterial infection. A week later after being on Baytril and a recheck with the vet... the mother is fine and I am releived. This young and mature female is out Mac and Cheese.

And last year in October... I found a mosaic female who was produced by Xavier(out of the Snow White line)x Lucy(Proven 100% Leu Het female) laying on her side at the bottom of the cage. She had a young baby at the time that was just seven weeks oop and was almost weaned. This was her very first offspring whom I kept and he is named Picasso, a Whte Platinium Mosaic. I called my vet and my husband drove us to the clinic. When my vet took her from my hands... he did something strange. He held her up to his face for a moment. He then told me she was in organ failure. I could not beleive what he had just told me. I asked how did her know... and he said "by her odor". I was numb with shock. I could not beleive what I had just heard him say. Dr. Neal put her to sleep at my request. He then opened her up... each organ he removed had small dark patches on them on the outside starting with the liver, kidneys, heart, lungs. The stomach was full so she was eating. The last organ Dr. Neal removed was the Gall Bladder. Then my vet said... oh my gosh.... and I replied with a "What?" He pulled out the Gall Bladder and it had a round hole in it about the size of a small pencil. The Gall Bladder had perferiated and that explained the small black patches on Xavier's Girl's organs. Tissue samples were sent off on each organ. DX came back a couple weeks later from the lab. Results were organ failure due to a Ruptered Gall Bladder.

Xavier's Girl was only a year and half oop. and she had two babies in her pouch that were pinkies. Dr. Neil was so upset over having to kill the little ones during the nucropsy. With tears rolling down my face , my husband and I left the clinic. It had been such a sad evening for all of us at the small animal clinic. While crying I rememer thinking how Mother Nature is just not fair sometimes to the little Sugar Gider.

Dr. Neil told me Ruptered Gall Bladders in dogs and cats is very rare. He only sees three or less a year with cause unknown. And for treatment their is only a 12 hour window before the animal becomes septic.

to be continued.






Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Sheila] #757981
03/31/09 07:50 AM
03/31/09 07:50 AM

T
TWilson
Unregistered
TWilson
Unregistered
T



Originally Posted By: Sheila
As far as a breeder and sharing Necropsy's - I had one glider die last year of my own stock and one joey of my clients. I have all colors too. I am not seeing in my gliders, nor with my clients any deaths beyond the norm. Frankly, I don't have the vet bills people are talking about. Last year my bills were less than $1,000 and that was on 60 gliders including Venus. If I have a client that has a sick baby (I have only had one or two of my nine years of breeding) and they call me in time, I talk to them about the importance of the necropsy. I did have two joeys last year that were fed yogurt and were lactose intollerant. With yogurt taken out of the diet, they are healthy. Clients generally don't want their glider cut up, even if I offer to pay for it. Last year was my second death of a joey. The first one was about four years ago. It had been dead for two days. We discussed how normal everything was up until the point of her finding it on the floor of the cage, and I asked her if she changed anything in the diet. She said she had given it pumpkin seeds when she had carved a pumpkin, he jumped right in and started chomping on it. I did some research on pumpkin seeds and saw that small animals can choke on them and more likely if they are stringy and not dried. It said they are fine for dogs and cats, but nothing smaller than a small dog. In that situation since the glider had been dead for two days, there was not much I could do. I had owned 6 generations of this line and had never had a death.

This all brings me to a thought. Why are breeders not being singled out here? Why are all the colored breeders being bunched together in this group. Nancy from Detroit, you did not and I thank you for voicing that. Frankly, this whole thread shocked me because I am not seeing health issues or death here, nor have I ever seen it. If there were health issues, I think it is the buyers responsibility to inform the breeder of any problems. If a breeder does not know of them, then how can they post about findings? If there are anyone here that has purchased a glider from me that is having health issues, please let me know. It is important for me to know as a breeder.

I also want to add this. Many people are upset about the high prices. What you see listed here is not necessarily what they go for. I just had three joeys that are less than two weeks old that were valued at $2400 and should sell for that, sold for $550 total. These people have no idea what they are getting and they are not breeding them so they don't care to know. These were local people wanting pet only. I would rather see my babies go to the right homes- loving homes, than what I see here in the classifieds. Many of the wonderful gliders I have, I don't breed them and many I wait until they are 2.5 to breed them. I am very proud of my gliders and the care they get. I am very proud when I can send a glider to a new home that is well worth the price they paid. I love giving people a good price and a good deal. I know how I feel when I get one. I do love it when I can send a glider home to a loving home and because I am blessed with so many colors, I do feel the need to sell them as normals so that I can experience as a breeder placing that baby in a loving home that is not intended to make money off of it. I am tired of being grouped with money hungry breeders. It is not fair to those like me that are doing the right thing.


I'm not upset about the high prices or colored gliders but I am shocked about how low you say your vet bills are, Sheila. Seriously, they were less than $1,000? Yes, you do breed colored gliders and you normally sell them for the going price, but you also noted that some you do sell for a reduced price and you have 60 gliders?

My vet is very reasonable in his prices, neuters are $80 with everything included, well visits are $40 and that is for the office and fecals. If I had 60 gliders and took them in ONCE a year for well and fecal checks that would be $2,400 right there. My gliders (all gray and no breeders) go in for well checks and fecals twice a year just because, not for a suspected illness.

Puppies, kittens and most others animals are required to be vet checked and have a clean bill of health BEFORE the sell of that animal, it is the law in Florida regardless if the cost of the animal is $50 or $5,000. Are these expensive colored gliders being sold without going to the vet for a wellness check? If so, WOW!!! People really spend that kind of money with NO health check????

Again, I am not a breeder but is this the norm? Do breeders NOT take their very expensive gliders in for a wellness check at least once a year? If not, alot could be lost in the effort of trying to learn the long term effects of inbreeding or line breeding that has been done.

Last edited by TWilson; 03/31/09 08:03 AM.
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ] #758002
03/31/09 09:09 AM
03/31/09 09:09 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
Again, I am not a breeder but is this the norm? Do breeders NOT take their very expensive gliders in for a wellness check at least once a year? If not, alot could be lost in the effort of trying to learn the long term effects of inbreeding or line breeding that has been done.


Sorry, I have to chime in here...The part I underlined...I dont care how expensive or non expensive gliders are, they should be taken in regardless and HEALTH checks should be done on ANY AND ALL joeys prior to leaving your home. No more than 10 days before going to their new home and then rechecked at the vet no more than 14 days upon arrival. As the stress from the move and new environment could cause issues to arise.

Fecals can be done on ALL you gliders without taking all your gliders in themselves if that is the issue. Matter of fact, you can even have a group fecal done. If ANY of your gliders show ANY signs of parasites, ALL gliders should be treated.

But then again, I also encourage to have blood work done on your gliders as well, as that tends to show more than fecals or physical exams. Not everyone is on board with that just yet. But it will happen. One day, when it is truly shown that blood work CAN help stop problems in their tracks, before it is too late.

Knock on wood and thank God, I have not had hardly any health issues at all here with my own gliders. I lost Bug to a urinary bladder infection, only because she showed NO signs before hand, and it wasnt even known what happened to her until we sent the tissues off to the lab, and had her two joeys that seemed to not be getting enough from her in the beginning who are now doing wonderful, and got a clean bill of health prior to leaving here. Other than that, Wilmas teeth were a problem at first, but even she has had no issues for quite some time. With that being said, I can say that I personally spent well over 1000 dollars at the vets office last year on visits and wellness exams and blood work.

Animals NEED to have an overall exam done at LEAST once a year.

Do you own a dog? Do you have blood work done on that dog? Do you have them checked for heartworms? Do you own a cat? Do you have their blood work done? Do you have them checked for feline leukemia?

I am no where near perfect. But I can tell you this, and for anyone who doesnt believe me, call Dr.Tristan and ask him, we do NOT see 1/4 of the issues down here with gliders that we help out with in other places.

(Tammy, I know that isnt what you were saying, but wanted to point it out to everyone that no matter what color or $$ you spend on a glider, they should always be taken in.)


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Srlb] #758025
03/31/09 10:15 AM
03/31/09 10:15 AM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
B
Bourbon Offline
Serious Glideritis
Bourbon  Offline
Serious Glideritis
B

Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
When the study was completed, I asked then if "based on this study, is there ANY changes I need to make to the BML?" (my willingness to change anything that may need changed) the response I got then is that the study only showed that more studies need to be done, that nothing conclusive was actually found. that at least it was a start.

now with that being said the ONE glider that was pulled from the program is owned by Dr Thomas (an instrumental part of the study) and she continued to feed the BML. to my knowledge that glider is still doing fine.

IF there is any changes/ modifications that need to be done to the BML, I have no problems with changing it, I have always said that. the biggest problem we see in diets is that people are taking balanced diets and modifying them, removing ingredients, changing them, taking out lower iron replacing with higher iron and higher iron absorbing items. this has been stated in many many threads.

people are changing almost all of the diets based on speculations.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Srlb] #758039
03/31/09 10:27 AM
03/31/09 10:27 AM

T
TWilson
Unregistered
TWilson
Unregistered
T



Thanks Peggy. smile

Yes, I only mentioned the expensive gliders because it was said previously that people that have "mercedes" gliders are more apt to get it vet care over the "ford" or grey gliders. It took me back a bit to hear that someone with 60 gliders, and I'm guessing mainly colored gliders had vet bills of less than $1,000.

Also agree that ALL gliders need wellness checks every year, all my gliders get theirs.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ] #758049
03/31/09 10:43 AM
03/31/09 10:43 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
OK Lori, I still have the study and it is still here on the board. BML was shown to be no better that the cat food or other diet in the study. If it is the best diet why have you failed to comply with others who have and are doing independent studies and give them what the need from the BML diet. Instead of saying no, when that study is done I will compare.

Enough already, this will not be the post to resurrect your diet, that is not what this post is for. If you read what I have written many times here. diet is more than likely what have cause the initial health issue. Line/inbreeding that causes mutations can be why health issues can be seen in younger gliders at a much advance stage.

Last edited by gliderdad79; 03/31/09 10:51 AM.

Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: gliderdad79] #758063
03/31/09 11:09 AM
03/31/09 11:09 AM

L
Leyna
Unregistered
Leyna
Unregistered
L



Eddie, thank you for clarifying. I thought that post was directed at me. It's a relief to know that it was not...

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ] #758095
03/31/09 12:16 PM
03/31/09 12:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis
Sheila  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
If you are usda you can request that all your gliders be examined while he is here which is once a year. If I have concerns for any of my gliders I do have my vet examine them. Periodically I have routine fecals and floats done just for safety purposes and nothing has ever been found. I do not take all my gliders into the vet's office once a year. My USDA inspector is a vet also and she inspects all my animals. I do take in my older gliders for wellness checks. I don't know of any breeder this size that does. If you take in rescues or rehomed gliders this is necessary because you are bringing in possible diseases and bacterias. All of my food is frozen prior to feeding so this is probably the reason I am not having any parasites. I also do group fecals which you put all the poop under one microscope. My vet has never found anything in 9 years. I only have about one or two adults die in a year and I do have several older gliders and younger ones that don't breed. About 1/3 of my gliders are non-breeding. Four years ago I had a vet bill of $3,000 and that was mainly due to a glider with an abcess. Expensive gliders are being sold with no health check, but if they want one, I will get it for them. My expensive parents are being checked on a regular basis. People that purchase from me know about my reputation and know what standard of wellness I have - that includes diet, cleanliness, entertainment for gliders, cage size, the list can go on and on. If I am not sending out gliders with problems and have only had two babies die in nine years, why would they think they might even get a sick baby from me? Up until two years ago I had every joey checked, but now I leave it up to the client and most of them that purchase from me know kind of glider they are going to get and opt not to have a check up. Most of my clients like to take the glider to their vet once they get it. I feel this is good so that they can establish a relationship with their vet early on. I do sell most expensive gliders to breeders who are experienced to know how to look at what issues might come up after shipping. I have many repeat customers. It makes no difference whether it is colored or not as to whether a vet check is needed. I always stand behind what I sell whether it be $200 or $2,000. If I do not have extra money at the end of the year, I do give to those who need in the glider community. This includes those that I know have had high vet bills and are having a hard time. And by the way, it is nobody's business what I charge, but for those that have purchased from me. I do not charge the current rate, but then again I don't use that money for my vet expense either. I don't live on my glider income and neither do my gliders.


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Sheila] #758107
03/31/09 12:52 PM
03/31/09 12:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline
Glider Slave
thefotokat  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
I see a fallacy thinking that health problems can be "seen" and that vet visits are unnecessary if gliders "appear" healthy. If a routine vet visit isn't done to establish a baseline of health/wellness, how can we ever track the causes of illness? There are going to be contributing factors as the glider ages and is moved into a new home and that is why baseline data is crucial. Another issue is the belief that someone's "reputation" should be what justifies a vet visit. A problem can come from any home and to not have vet checks done simply because a glider comes from "so and so" detracts from our ability to collect data and track issues. We need all data, good and bad, to obtain a true measure of the amount and type of genetic issues. It's not a matter of only looking for bad news...we also want to know what's right. Without vet visits...routine vet visits...many health issues will not be documented. Many folks would never check to see if a male has a retained testicle, but a vet will. I know that seems like such a relatively small "problem" but it still deserves discussion. W/out collecting data (as the SUGAR Group is diligently trying to do), how can we know if there are underlying health issues. An early well visit could detect them thus eliminating many contributing factors. If the glider is not seen by a vet until there's a problem, it's nearly impossible to determine the origin. By the time symptoms appear, there is usually damage done. If sharing this data can help the entire population of gliders, why would anyone not want to share their info?

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: thefotokat] #758126
03/31/09 01:17 PM
03/31/09 01:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis
Sheila  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
What the vet looks for in a joey is coat, heart, fecal, ears. I understand a baseline is important and I also understand that if a glider develops a heart problem and didn't have it at birth it could be genetic, and then again it may not be due to overfeeding, too much fat in the diet, etc. If 20 babies are born from that one mother and she only has one with a heart defect, I would not say, don't breed the offspring. I purchased my dog four years ago. Her mother is 6 and has three sets of litters. Only one has a heart murmur and it is my dog. It is very common to the breed. My dog is spayed, but I did breed her twice before I found out about the murmur. None of her offspring were bred and were all spayed and neutered. If any had been, I would have notified all recipients of the puppies. Many humans have one [slow] baby and no more. Sometimes it has to do with the age of the mother while pregnant. Have we ever thought that maybe a 5 year old mother might have a baby with a defect because she has bred for four years? These are things we don't know and I am not sure we can even prove them with data. As I stated before in an earlier post, I sell quite a few babies and for generations upon generations, I am not hearing that there are all these sick babies. I must be doing something right, huh?

Also, I want to ad that 8 years ago we didn't know if 2nd hand smoke would harm humans. Now we know and many people smoke in the room with their gliders. Can I be responsible for the glider getting cancer because their owner smokes. No sir, I cannot. I can only be responsible for what happens here and with my clients!

Last edited by Sheila; 03/31/09 01:37 PM.

ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
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