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Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Sheila] #758176
03/31/09 03:04 PM
03/31/09 03:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline
Glider Slave
thefotokat  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
Those are the same points I'm trying to say, Sheila. There are so many contributing factors to illness, that we need as much "pure" data as possible prior to the joeys going to a new home. We do know more than was known 8 years ago and we will know even more 8 years from now. The way we will get there is the consolidation of as much info as possible. What was perhaps "acceptable" or normal 8 years ago is not any longer which is why we must change our ways of doing things as we learn more. I think most folks can now see why it's important to gather info, learn what is and isn't good and make the necessary changes.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: thefotokat] #758199
03/31/09 03:46 PM
03/31/09 03:46 PM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
Sheila Offline
Serious Glideritis
Sheila  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
When Eddie brought this up on this forum, I kept wondering what is he talking about. I have not been here much in the last three months. I do not know about gliders death that are colored. Can their be a list somewhere? I would like to know if any of these are my babies? Eddie, can you point us to these threads on this board? I do know of Lynsie's baby, but what are the others? By what Judie has posted so far, Helen and myself, I don't see the numbers he is talking about. It is not that I want to call a breeder out, but it would help us breeders that are breeding to know possibly where the mistakes might have been. If there are a lot of deaths, I am more inclined to think they are on the third or fourth tier of this since people on the first tier aren't seeing it. I can understand that if it is done over and over again, it will happen. This is why most of my pairings now will give you 50%. I have several people coming to look for 100% hets and I only have one Leu that is still in my breeding program. I just feel every few years someone needs to breed them out for safety purposes. When I first got my Leu's that is all I did for the first three years. Now I am doing it again. The 50% hets for anything may not be as popular, but Leyna will tell you how it is best. She is better with words that me. Leyna has always done this and I am proud of her for doing this. She was more concerned about preserving a safe line than making a $. Leyna, don't think that I don't notice things like this. heart


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Sheila] #758204
03/31/09 03:59 PM
03/31/09 03:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
Adri Offline
Glider Guardian
Adri  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 956
Homestead, FL
I would also like to see a list of the animals in question. This could prove to be very benefical in reevaluating what lines should be bred or need to be bred out more and so on. I would also like to know if there is any trend of disease in any of the lines I currently own so I could have my vet examine those gliders more closely. I sure don't want to find out about a problem when it's too late to save one of my babies.


Adri

Mother of 2
Adrian, Sofie
Slave to many glidin' gliders



www.sugarsensation.com

Within the heart of every stray lies the singular desire to be loved.
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Adri] #758212
03/31/09 04:14 PM
03/31/09 04:14 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
There are several of us that would like to know, especially if there are joeys. I do know of older gliders that are having some issues, but like I told Eddie before, we are seeing more illnesses than a few years ago, mainly because there are a lot more gliders and glider owners. So I think the percentage may still be the same if not a bit lower actually, but still, if there are JOEYS that are having issues, PLEASE let us breeders aware of it.

After the whole parasite thing, I thought that brought a lot of attention out to the importance of a fecal being done at least 14 days after getting to their new home. We also learned that it is much more common than we ever knew. Now to read Judies post and to see she had problems with it way back when just confirms, it has been there all along, just not to our knowledge like it is now.

So once again, if there are other joeys out there, please let us breeders know, even if you dont want to post it on here, at least pm us. I do however, want to encourage everyone to be open about the matter, you never know how by you posting the problem, it just may help someone else.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: BeckiT] #758214
03/31/09 04:18 PM
03/31/09 04:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,753
Florida
LabNGliderMom Offline
Glider Addict
LabNGliderMom  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,753
Florida
Originally Posted By: BeckiT
Quote:
A national glider registry similar to the AKC's record keeping process would be a HUGE help to avoid inbreeding...
The only thing that AKC does is make a record of the dog, their lineage and any awards they gain through dog showing or trials.. They have no control over who breeds what dog to what dog, nor do they care... IMO the 2 pedigree databases being kept for gliders now are a much bigger step in the right direction than the AKC would be (plus, AKC charges you to access each pedigree you look at, even if it's for your own dog!).


No, the AKC does NOT interfere with which dog gets bred to which dog... but they DO keep a RECORD of ALL the dog's COMPLETE pedigrees and THAT is what I was getting at... if there was a site to go to to see the lineage of your glider, it would be easier to avaoid linebreeding.

BTW I am an AKC registered breeder and I can access my dog's pedigrees whenever I want on the AKC website for free... and if you get a certified pedigree back to the great grandparents, you have a paper copy you can refer to at any time... but I think it would be BETTER if they allowed RESEARCH into ANY dog's pedigree, as I am suggesting would be good for gliders.


Julie
Hubby: George
Kids: Ayla & Michael
Grandsons: Trysten, Dayton, KJ & Nathyn
The Zoo: Midnight, Severe & Nala - Claude, Pixie, Tippy & Chili - Scout & Soluna, Theo & Deegie

http://hammockhavenpetsplus.com


Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Srlb] #758215
03/31/09 04:21 PM
03/31/09 04:21 PM

L
Leyna
Unregistered
Leyna
Unregistered
L



Quote:
The 50% hets for anything may not be as popular, but Leyna will tell you how it is best. She is better with words that me. Leyna has always done this and I am proud of her for doing this. She was more concerned about preserving a safe line than making a $. Leyna, don't think that I don't notice things like this.


Thanks Sheila smile I've put a lot of effort into my breeding program and it's nice to know it hasn't gone unnoticed.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Sheila] #758219
03/31/09 04:26 PM
03/31/09 04:26 PM

7
7glider7
Unregistered
7glider7
Unregistered
7



Do we know that there is a higher correlation between smokers and their gliders getting cancer vs. non-smokers and their gliders getting cancer?

If not, this assertion should not be made.

All the more reason that a detailed, grassroots study is needed to see if there are any connections between diet, genetics, environment, and some of the health issues we are seeing.


I'm going to work on a survey we can have people take if they have their gliders die of cancer, liver problems, or kidney problems. It will ask about their diet, environment, and lineage, and also specify what to ask the vet to look for on the necropsy.

If you have any additional health issues that you see coming up that you'd like me to target, please PM me.

Perhaps because of this thread people will actually participate and we might actually learn something.

Someone brought up to me today that we've come a long way in our understanding of gliders. 15 years ago we were feeding them cat food and they were getting HLP and things of that sort. We don't see nearly as much of that today. But we can still do better for our pets.

I hope everyone stops making this a personal vendetta against people and let's start gathering actual data to make more informed choices. Then, if we know what's causing some of these issues and people STILL aren't breeding and/or feeding responsibly, then it's time to point the fingers. Right now we don't even have enough information to say. Let's start by getting more informed. Your suggestions are welcome as to what types of info you think we should gather.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ] #758224
03/31/09 04:32 PM
03/31/09 04:32 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
I hope everyone stops making this a personal vendetta against people and let's start gathering actual data to make more informed choices. Then, if we know what's causing some of these issues and people STILL aren't breeding and/or feeding responsibly, then it's time to point the fingers. Right now we don't even have enough information to say. Let's start by getting more informed. Your suggestions are welcome as to what types of info you think we should gather.


clap


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ] #758248
03/31/09 04:57 PM
03/31/09 04:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline
Glider Slave
thefotokat  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
Originally Posted By: 7glider7
All the more reason that a detailed, grassroots study is needed to see if there are any connections between diet, genetics, environment, and some of the health issues we are seeing.[/b]

I'm going to work on a survey we can have people take if they have their gliders die of cancer, liver problems, or kidney problems. It will ask about their diet, environment, and lineage, and also specify what to ask the vet to look for on the necropsy.



Jen, the SUGAR Group is already doing this. They've been sending out surveys, but folks are slow in returning them. They are also working on specific surveys for specific situations. Hopefully people will start returning surveys after reading this thread.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ] #758258
03/31/09 05:13 PM
03/31/09 05:13 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
cyndiekb Offline
Serious Glideritis
cyndiekb  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
Wow I hope I didn't stir stuff up. I just think it is important to share what I am finding in my own crew. I think it is not fair to Sheila and Judie in some ways because they are really where all most all my gliders came from. It just happens I am an avid vet user. I could have been any breeders glider and I would find out if my kid had a problem. I would still buy form either of them as I know they both care for the gliders and continue to learn and teach. I have seen their gliders and know the care they get.

It was not about them I posted it was about what we know now and what we are doing to change and make things better. I have watched Leyna and talked to her about her program in the past. This is where we need to go. Clean healthy lines. Don't breed gliders that have known issues. If you have a glider that has a problem you owe it to the rest of the gliders to share that info. Even if it is your own mistake. They happen. Just look what I do to Patches. (health and hygiene)

Yes sterility is a defect we need to stop that line.
One more thing. The health check is only as good as your vet. I had gliders tested for parasites several times by one vet and they we ok every time. Turns out my glider did have them and may be a contributing factor to the death of Sprite.


cyndiekb

I heart & miss you HALEY

My runaways 4/04 Lilo, 5/04 Dash & Angel

angel Sprite Says GO STEALTH!! at
AtticWorx
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: cyndiekb] #758263
03/31/09 05:19 PM
03/31/09 05:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Cyndie, you didnt stir up anything.

Quote:
Jen, the SUGAR Group is already doing this.


Jen, I am also working on something with Dr.T in this area. If you are interested I would love for you to help me out with it.

I think the more out there working on things the better. It doesnt just have to be one group does it?


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ] #758267
03/31/09 05:26 PM
03/31/09 05:26 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
Glider Addict
Guerita135  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Originally Posted By: Leyna
Quote:
The 50% hets for anything may not be as popular, but Leyna will tell you how it is best. She is better with words that me. Leyna has always done this and I am proud of her for doing this. She was more concerned about preserving a safe line than making a $. Leyna, don't think that I don't notice things like this.


Thanks Sheila smile I've put a lot of effort into my breeding program and it's nice to know it hasn't gone unnoticed.


What am I? Chopped liver? lol. I noticed! I drool over them every time I come over! roflmao


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: Guerita135] #758277
03/31/09 05:48 PM
03/31/09 05:48 PM

L
Leyna
Unregistered
Leyna
Unregistered
L



Lol, you don't count Nicole...

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ] #758282
03/31/09 05:57 PM
03/31/09 05:57 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
gliderdad79 Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
gliderdad79  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,514
Long Island, NY
Cyndie you did not stir anything. I have stated several times this post was not started to attack or expose anyone. What the real intention was is to get research, learn, discuss how this can be causing advanced health issues in young gliders, etc. I thank you for sharing, we need all the information out there not only for use but for the future of the gliders and their owners.

It is every generations responsibility to improve care, knowledge and understanding for the next. If we continue the way we are, the next generations will be starting from scratch like it was years ago. Along the lines, everyone will and have made mistakes, it's what is learned and actions taken on what we learned that will keep the gliders moving forwards and not backwards.


Eddie

In the Tropics somewhere between the port of indecision and southeast of disorder!

"Great people talk about ideas. Average people talk about things. Small people talk about other people."

One day your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure its worth watching!
Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: sugarlope] #758311
03/31/09 06:36 PM
03/31/09 06:36 PM

U
Ushuaia
Unregistered
Ushuaia
Unregistered
U



I use to work at a research facility breeding transgenic lines of inbred rats and mice. I have a lot of experience as well as a background in biology. Let me first start off by saying that there is not a morality discussion.

The population of mice and rats I worked with must be inbred 20 generations to be considered an inbred line. I can say that there were strains that were inbred more than 100 generations.

The purpose of inbreeding was to obtain genetically identical individuals no genetic variance. This is a goal that is not totally achievable because mutations will occur even between identical twins formed from the same egg. Though it will reduce the amount of variance to almost none. This type of work is essential in research. When testing drugs you want your subjects to have as little variance as possible. Both environmental and genetic factors play roles in the ways drugs interact with the test subject.

Color variation is one thing that is often used to monitor genetic variance in mice and rats. If there is a coat color change then there is genetic variation. To keep the lines pure these mutants were selectively culled. This is how lines were kept pure and how they are able to maintain a disease free population.

This is however not what is being done with sugar gliders. To have a program that utilizes inbreeding you MUST selectively cull out the gliders which have ANY undesirable characteristics. Now I know what you are saying. You want us to kill the gliders to preserve the line. No that is not what culling means. Culling the animal simply means to prevent that animal from reproducing. In research facilities this is done through euthanasia; However, for breeders not associated with research this can be done through spay and neutering. The gliders who have undesirable characteristics must not be allowed to enter the general breeding population because they will contaminate it and concentrate the occurrence of undesirable genes occurring in the overall population.

A lot of diseases come from recessive mutations that is to say that it takes two copies of a gene for it to express itself. This is a very simplified explanation in reality it may take several genes for this to occur. Inbreeding homogenizes genes. If a gene need two copies to express itself then when it is inbreed it can be bred out. There is no real way to know that the problem gene is out unless that gene has been identified and genetic analysis can be used to verify it no longer is present.

Inbreeding does not need to go to the point of an inbred line 20 generations of brother to sister breeding by definition. Test crosses are useful in determining what problems you might have in your line and that you can then take preventative measures against breeding it or what to look out for. A test cross is one breeding of a closely related individual. This is one breeding and the offspring is not bred. If you wanted to know about the sire then a father daughter breeding and the dam would be a mother son breeding. A brother sister breeding would give more general information about the mother and father.

Inbreeding should only be done with specific goals in mind and should be part of an overall health strategy for your line. Discuss all inbreeding with a licensed vet and genetic counselor before deciding to start on this path. Inbreeding simply to express colors or without regard to the inherent problems incurred by offspring should not be done and would make for bad husbandry practices.

Serious breeders should look as inbreeding as a tool that they can use to identify and prevent problems or even as a possible way of selectively removing problem genes.

Re: Discussion of Colored Breeding - Part 2 [Re: ] #758575
04/01/09 12:04 AM
04/01/09 12:04 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
L
LSardou Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
LSardou  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
L

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 21,060
Kansas
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