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Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: sugarlope] #834468
09/07/09 10:12 AM
09/07/09 10:12 AM
Joined: Feb 2000
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Sheila Offline
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I had suggesting having one of Nicole's other glider's tested for calcium levels, but I am not sure if Nicole's gliders are the ones that should be tested. It might be that some gliders need to be tested outside this situation in order to be conclusive that it is diet related. There might be something environmentally there that could be causing this issue and many of her gliders could be at risk, therefore causing negative bloodwork. Could this be possible? I know ChrisR said that because she had had a parasite that it is not conclusive that some gliders still might carry it which would make the test she is having done this week inconclusive. Also, a male is going to have different results than a female that has had several joeys in the last year.


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Sheila] #834469
09/07/09 10:17 AM
09/07/09 10:17 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 310
Northwest Missouri
Chris_R Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sheila
I had suggesting having one of Nicole's other glider's tested for calcium levels, but I am not sure if Nicole's gliders are the ones that should be tested. It might be that some gliders need to be tested outside this situation in order to be conclusive that it is diet related. There might be something environmentally there that could be causing this issue and many of her gliders could be at risk, therefore causing negative bloodwork. Could this be possible? I know ChrisR said that because she had had a parasite that it is not conclusive that some gliders still might carry it which would make the test she is having done this week inconclusive. Also, a male is going to have different results than a female that has had several joeys in the last year.


Yes...thats basically what I said...until the Giardia in Nicoles gliders have had 2 consecutive all clears with SNAP testing then we wont know if the Giardia "contaminates" the test results...

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Chris_R] #834472
09/07/09 10:19 AM
09/07/09 10:19 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 310
Northwest Missouri
Chris_R Offline
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We might find with testing males vs breeding females that there is a need to increase some of the essential vitamins/minerals/nutrients (calcium being one of the major concerns) beyond what HPW diet calls for in females...

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Chris_R] #834490
09/07/09 11:04 AM
09/07/09 11:04 AM
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Ohio
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Sheila, Peggy said that she tests all her gliders routinely(annually, I think), so I'm waiting for her to send me the test results for her gliders so we have something to compare to. I still haven't gotten that info from her...


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Guerita135] #834507
09/07/09 12:02 PM
09/07/09 12:02 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
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Bourbon Offline
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sheila,
Quote:
There might be something environmentally there that could be causing this issue and many of her gliders could be at risk, therefore causing negative blood work.


this is some of the things I have been pretty adamant on with nicole, that there is too many different problems in one place for it to be diet (hpw) related, 1000's of gliders would be sick all over.. so she is open for those other possible environmental issues and ways to check to see if it may be an issue..

I think at first she suspected diet, which only spawned into what it did, was the diet discussion spawned because of her issues, yes, but to be honest I don't think anymore that she believes it may be diet (hpw) related.

now she is really trying to work to find possible problems and what she can do about them.

we did discuss, paint, molds, pesticides, her water supplies and about a hundred other things.., (I believe she is going to try to have her water tested.)
she does have cats that was diagnosed with giardia, she had the issue with the supplier for her mealworm bedding, and I believe she is checking more into that as well.

you have knowledge and experience with other environmental factors that may also be an issue here, and that is the humidity etc. is there a way for her to check those levels and if so, what levels would be appropriate??

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Bourbon] #834550
09/07/09 02:03 PM
09/07/09 02:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 310
Northwest Missouri
Chris_R Offline
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I do happen to know that testing well water for Giardia is super expensive....as long as the water isnt chlorinated? and just filtered it would probably be cheaper to test for fecal coliforms or e coli because to test well water it takes running out hundreds of gallons of water through a special filter to test the water specifically for Giardia.....

Ummm Nicole...you are surrounded by corn fields correct?..how deep is your well? is it one of those "shallow" wells that could possibly get Giardia by contaminated fertilizer leaching down into the ground water???? another scenerio that could possibly contaminate a well with giardia is an older well that has cracked casings etc...

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Chris_R] #834575
09/07/09 03:00 PM
09/07/09 03:00 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
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Quote:
Sheila, Peggy said that she tests all her gliders routinely(annually, I think), so I'm waiting for her to send me the test results for her gliders so we have something to compare to. I still haven't gotten that info from her...


As I told you, Tristan is at a conference, I will be going to see him next week. I am still waiting for your records as well that I have not received to take to him when I go. (And no, I do not want them as *proof* that you took your gliders to the vet Nicole, I do believe you when you say you did.)


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Srlb] #834615
09/07/09 03:51 PM
09/07/09 03:51 PM
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Posts: 5,363
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Sheila Offline
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Peggy wouldn't it just be easier for Nicole's vet to send the findings to Tristen. I mean doesn't she have just a few test compared to about 24 of yours are are you just going to send a few of yours?


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Bourbon] #834625
09/07/09 04:01 PM
09/07/09 04:01 PM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
Sheila Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bourbon


you have knowledge and experience with other environmental factors that may also be an issue here, and that is the humidity etc. is there a way for her to check those levels and if so, what levels would be appropriate??






Bourbon I have found out more recently about the envionmental issues and how they affect gliders, but I also know that for some reason sugar gliders know when there are others around that are not well. They are like dogs in that a dog knows when another dog is getting ready to die or ill. Many times gliders will do what others will do in the same surroundings even though they are not ill. Time and time again we have seen pairs on here where one will be ill and the other not, but the other will not eat because of what its cagemate is going through. Gliders speak a language that we do not understand. It is most likely that when Nicole's glider got ill, the whole room knew about it. Ever since the SGGA I have been very interested in the behavior of gliders and how it effects their wellness. I am gradually changing out my toys to be more stimulating for them. Dr. Bradley really touched on this at the SGGA and it got me to thinking about how long a toy that I think they like sits in a cage without a change out. I know I certainly would get tired of watching the same episode of Seinfield every night.
I think as breeders we find out new information every year. I know Nicole is very conscientious and careful with her gliders care. I do think it is something environmental with them because I think it was beyond her control. I think by her using bottled water it might rule out all the parasite problem. I think if it were me, I would consider all my gliders quarantined until the "bug party" is over.


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Sheila] #834629
09/07/09 04:05 PM
09/07/09 04:05 PM
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Posts: 4,645
Ohio
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Chris, I'm not sure how deep the well is, I'll have to ask hubby because he remembers all those kinda details. tounge I'll check my info from when we bought the house too.

Peggy, I've already told you, I don't have any vet records aside from my receipts.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Guerita135] #834632
09/07/09 04:18 PM
09/07/09 04:18 PM

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BabyLoveGliders
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Quote:
I do happen to know that testing well water for Giardia is super expensive....as long as the water isnt chlorinated? and just filtered it would probably be cheaper to test for fecal coliforms or e coli because to test well water it takes running out hundreds of gallons of water through a special filter to test the water specifically for Giardia.....


Our well is 300+ ft deep.. it cost 150.00 to have our water tested.including giardia (they came here) Nicole you can also take a sample of your water to the water board in your county..

Last edited by BabyLoveGliders; 09/07/09 04:18 PM.
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Guerita135] #834635
09/07/09 04:30 PM
09/07/09 04:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
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St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
Peggy wouldn't it just be easier for Nicole's vet to send the findings to Tristen. I mean doesn't she have just a few test compared to about 24 of yours are are you just going to send a few of yours?


Sheila, YES it would be easier that way. Because you see, Tristan not only has MY gliders blood work, but he has collected MANY different workups over the years there in his clinic and from other vets and owners that have sent them in. So that way it would not just be comparing it to MY gliders or based on just one type of diet, but an overall basic number.

Quote:
Peggy, I've already told you, I don't have any vet records aside from my receipts.


Nicole, as I have told you before, your vet WILL have some chart of records on you and your visits and what he saw, determined and how he treated. I dont have any of my physical records neither, but if I went in or called my vets office and asked for a copy, I would get them as they have them on file. Call them and ask them to send a copy via fax over. That way you wont even have to go in. thumb


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Srlb] #834999
09/08/09 11:24 AM
09/08/09 11:24 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Slight change of plans...

The vet called this morning and asked me to bring an older glider because Woodrow's only 5 months old and she said younger gliders that are still growing often have higher phosphorous levels. Soooo...I brought Gollum instead. He's neutered, a year old, and always cleans his plate. He's also one of the only boys I have that's been on HPW his entire life and isn't overweight(aside from my youngins). lol

We should have the results by the end of this week for the bloodwork.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Guerita135] #835050
09/08/09 01:11 PM
09/08/09 01:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
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Did you remember to pick up the files while you were there Nicole?


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Srlb] #835355
09/09/09 03:12 AM
09/09/09 03:12 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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No, I didn't get them Peggy. The vet was extremely busy and I was in a hurry because I had to be somewhere, but I'll call them and ask about the paperwork. I want a copy for my records anyways.

BTW, I would still like to see some of the results of the bloodwork on your gliders. Your vet already has the bloodwork and mine will just be one more to add to his piles, but my vet doesn't have any other bloodwork to compare my gliders' to(that I know of). That's why I asked if you could send me just a couple of the results of your gliders, so she can see what your's are and be able to compare them to mine. So, if you don't mind, I'd still really appreciate it if you could send a couple(not ALL of them, lol, just a couple for her to compare with).

Also, I don't think you ever answered my previous question...did you get the phosphorous levels checked on your gliders too or just the calcium levels? In the PMs we exchanged in the past you mentioned the calcium alot, but not the phosphorous, so I was just curious if that was something you checked as well since my vet said that high phosphorous is indicative of a glider's calcium being low(despite the levels looking normal) because the body is pulling the calcium from the bones.

Oh yeah, I just wanted to add that Arby also had a fecal done, as did his mom, Precious, and both were negative. dance I'm going to bring in some samples from Freedom(the daddy), Chief(Arby's brother), and Nemo as well to have them checked. If they're negative, then I'll get snap tests done too, just to be sure. Then everything will be repeated once more in about a month, to make sure nothing snuck by. tounge

Assuming all those come back negative then I can start going around, a couple cages at a time, and getting everyone cleared so I can finally give them their bedding and toys back. Woot! grin


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Guerita135] #835359
09/09/09 04:07 AM
09/09/09 04:07 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
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Judie  Offline
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Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Since Teresa Bradley is a Marsupial Expert... why not call her office to get the Cal and Phosp numbers from Her?


Dr. Teresa Bradley DVM
Belton Animal Clinic
816-331-3120

Have Well Water... use RO Distilled Water.

I would think if your Well Water was an issue... your whole family would be sick with Giardia.

vet's keep records. Ask the girl at the counter to copy everything in your folder and give the copies to you. You do not even need to see the vet for this request. vet should have recorded all visits along with history, Cheif Complaints, diagnoses with treatments and test results that were sent off to the lab. All of this is needed before a medical consultation can be done with another vet.

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Judie] #835422
09/09/09 08:44 AM
09/09/09 08:44 AM

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Chelsie
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Wooo Hoo for Arby and Precious!! I am so glad that they were negative and I pray everyone else is too!! heart You and your babies are still in our thoughts and prayers and let me know if you need anything ok!! hug2

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: ] #835445
09/09/09 09:38 AM
09/09/09 09:38 AM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
Sheila Offline
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That is good news they tested negative Nicole! grin


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Sheila] #835466
09/09/09 10:03 AM
09/09/09 10:03 AM

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BabyLoveGliders
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IMO.. neither you or Peggy should be exchanging vet records.. Peggy does not need yours or anyones. Your vets should be talking.. they both do consults.. Nicole have your vet contact Dr Tristan directly... let them do this.. you guys are NOT vets!

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: ] #835486
09/09/09 10:32 AM
09/09/09 10:32 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
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Quote:
Your Vets should be talking.. they both do consults.. Nicole have your vet contact Dr Tristan directly... let them do this..


For once in a long time Kris, I could not agree with you more!

Quote:
you guys are NOT vets!


And just for the record, I was NOT going to do ANYTHING with Nicoles records except to take them TO TRISTAN and LET HIM (he IS a vet) look at them and see if he seen anything for Nicole to try on top of what she is already trying. I dont think EITHER of us ever claimed to be a vet, only that we were going to exchange records to give to our vets...


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Srlb] #835560
09/09/09 01:57 PM
09/09/09 01:57 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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The bloodwork results are in(talk about fast!):

Gollum's levels were: Phosphorous-21.7 Calcium-9.2

Arby's levels were: Phosphorous-20.8 Calcium-8.4

The NORMAL levels for a gliders are: Phosphorous- 3.8-4.4 Calcium- 6.9-8.4

The vet said that 100%, without a doubt, that the problem IS diet-related.

---------------------

Now...before anyone panics...I would like to put in a request to everyone here that feeds HPW* and has a little bit of money to spare: PLEASE take at least ONE glider(preferably one that's been on HPW! their entire life) to your vet and get their bloodwork done to check the cal:phos levels. Then, post your results here.

*The original recipe, NOT modified with added calcium, pellets, or applesauce.

Also, I want to say that we need to take this opportunity to take a second look at what we feed(no matter if it's HPW, BML, Priscilla's diet, etc...). Take that diet-info to your vet and TALK to your vet about it. Don't just feed a diet because everyone else does. Also, don't NOT feed a diet because everyone bashes it. Do what you and YOUR vet think is best for babies. If your vet isn't very glider-knowledgeable, then get them in contact with a vet that is.

Lastly, I'm sure this will probably stir up some debate, but that's keep it civil and remember that we are trying to help our gliders. This should not be able US, it should be about our gliders. Remember GC's motto, "For the good of the gliders."


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Guerita135] #835562
09/09/09 02:04 PM
09/09/09 02:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,830
USA
SugarBlossoms Offline
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Okay, I feed PML and am going to get bloodwork done on one of our gliders that was born and raised here. I hope a few others will do this also.


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: SugarBlossoms] #835577
09/09/09 02:50 PM
09/09/09 02:50 PM

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Quote:

For once in a long time Kris, I could not agree with you more!


Was that really needed Peggy?

This is not about us.. so I'll ask you before a mod does.. could you please not make this personal.

I never said either of you said you were vets.. simply IMO.. neither of you need to be taking each others records to each others vets.. They can communicate among themselves.Things never seem to get done otherwise.

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Guerita135] #835593
09/09/09 03:13 PM
09/09/09 03:13 PM
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Posts: 708
Melbourne Australia
Marz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Guerita135


The NORMAL levels for a gliders are: Phosphorous- 3.8-4.4 Calcium- 6.9-8.4



I'm curious here Nicole.

Are the Ca/P values calculated as mmol/L (they should be but just making sure)? Also if you could ask the vet their source of the normal bloodwork levels please that would also be informative.

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: ] #835596
09/09/09 03:21 PM
09/09/09 03:21 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
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Kris, I wasnt making it personal, I was stating I agree with you. Period. Dont make it more than it is, we are both just trying to help Nicole with her gliders.

Nicole, as soon as I was told about this I sent Tim a text and asked him to call me as soon as he can so I can discuss the blood work with him and see if he cant send me over a copy of one of my tests that I can scan on here for you to see. thumb


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Marz] #835600
09/09/09 03:30 PM
09/09/09 03:30 PM

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Originally Posted By: Marz
Originally Posted By: Guerita135


The NORMAL levels for a gliders are: Phosphorous- 3.8-4.4 Calcium- 6.9-8.4



I'm curious here Nicole.

Are the Ca/P values calculated as mmol/L (they should be but just making sure)? Also if you could ask the vet their source of the normal bloodwork levels please that would also be informative.


Marz, good question. I just had this done last week and I'll call my vet and ask.




Last edited by BabyLoveGliders; 09/09/09 03:43 PM.
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: ] #835626
09/09/09 04:27 PM
09/09/09 04:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Nicole, I just got off the phone with Tim. He stated that yes he does indeed check for the PH levels as well, and none of my bloodwork, even on dasher, has come back reading like yours. He said his first concern with those numbers would be kidney problems, then he would really get into what you are feeding EXACTLY...such as corn etc. He said that it is not the HPW he would concentrate on but the other items that are fed with it and he is more than willing to discuss all this with your vet if you just have them call him. He said he is more than happy to swap reports with your vet and discuss all this with them. So his number if you want to pass it along is 361-994-1145. I know you probably already have it but just in case. He also said that the giardia would not cause numbers to be like that, so that is another thing you can scratch off that has been stated. Also, how many mealworms are offered since you had your own farm?

Anyway, just thought I would let you know I did indeed talk with him, and this is what he said. I do hope you have your vet call him so they can talk about this. It sounds like an interesting case for the two vets to work on together.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Srlb] #835710
09/09/09 07:42 PM
09/09/09 07:42 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Judie, I called Dr. Bradley,, but wasn't able to speak with her. The secretary said she'd give her he message though and that Dr. Bradley would call me back when she had time. Maybe she'll have some input.

Also, I'm currently scanning some info the vet gave me. It shines a little bit more light on glider nutrition and such and also a chart showing what the blood values should be for a captive glider.


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: Guerita135] #835725
09/09/09 08:19 PM
09/09/09 08:19 PM

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Originally Posted By: Guerita135

Lastly, I'm sure this will probably stir up some debate, but that's keep it civil and remember that we are trying to help our gliders. This should not be able US, it should be about our gliders. Remember GC's motto, "For the good of the gliders."


I'm really glad you got the bloodwork done and have posted this!

That said, how are the vets sure that it is a diet deficiency causing the low levels, and not a result of the Ca and P not being metabolized due to illness? Isn't it true that oftentimes gliders with an OK diet will show signs of calcium deficiency if they have a secondary illness, like a bacterial infection or giardia? Because their body can't process the minerals while it's dealing with the illness? Perhaps this wouldn't impact the blood levels, but I wanted to make sure the vets considered this.

I also feel like if HPW was the sole issue, a lot of people would be seeing sick gliders.

I am pretty unbiased here as I don't feed HPW...just coming at it from a science perspective...when you look at your variables, we should be seeing lots of problems in lots of gliders if HPW is the causal factor.

Re: Part 3: There's something seriously wrong [Re: ] #835730
09/09/09 08:23 PM
09/09/09 08:23 PM

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BabyLoveGliders
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Jen.. those 2 gliders Nicole had done yesterday have never been sick.

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