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Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841262
09/20/09 03:54 PM
09/20/09 03:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
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St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
Why do you think we want a grant for a true diet study?


I thought this was NOT a diet study???

I am sooo confused....


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841263
09/20/09 03:54 PM
09/20/09 03:54 PM

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BabyLoveGliders
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and I'm not sure why you keep saying.."knocking your gliders out"... My vet does NOT even use a sedative on my gliders.. but when a vet does need to they are NOT knocked out.. they are given a very very light sedative..most do not even fall asleep.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Srlb] #841265
09/20/09 03:55 PM
09/20/09 03:55 PM

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BabyLoveGliders
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Peggy,
This community study is NOT a diet study... however when we receive a grant a full diet study will be done.. but NOT on diets..

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841266
09/20/09 03:56 PM
09/20/09 03:56 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
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Srlb  Offline
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St. Johns, Florida
Ummm...mine are put under....


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Srlb] #841272
09/20/09 04:03 PM
09/20/09 04:03 PM

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BabyLoveGliders
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Sorry, maybe you should ask Tim for an alternative method.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841278
09/20/09 04:09 PM
09/20/09 04:09 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
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St. Johns, Florida
I dont want a different way as to me, it would be too stressful on the glider, not to mention, I dont want my babies to feel it happening, and bloodwork hurts (talking of my own experiences).

Kris, I know you have given numbers before, but you stated you were going to pick up the paperwork, could you please scan that and post it for us? I would like to be able to show it to Tristan tomorrow when I go in to see him. If you dont mind that is.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Srlb] #841284
09/20/09 04:20 PM
09/20/09 04:20 PM

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Sorry I have not picked it up. Spencer was sick, threw my back out.etc etc etc.. darn life got in the way.

Honestly, i think you should try a sedative.. going under anesthesia is much, much to hard on the system. My gliders dont even flinch when my vet draws blood.. but then again.. having my blood drawn doesnt hurt me.. my cats and dogs never have issues either.. I guess I would rather 1 minute of a pinch then chemicals running thru their little bodies.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841286
09/20/09 04:23 PM
09/20/09 04:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
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Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
My appt with Tim tomorrow is at 10 am, would you mind calling them and asking them to fax a copy over to my store first thing in the morning? Just to add it in with the rest of what he has and to note on there it is from a different diet plan? The fax number is 361-643-6495

Hope Spencer is doing better. You and Alicia both need to watch those back issues! Back pain is never any fun. frown


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Srlb] #841287
09/20/09 04:23 PM
09/20/09 04:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 6,576
Kilgore, Texas
Cora Offline
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Kilgore, Texas
yep Dr. Reese puts my gliders "under" for bloodwork as well!


USDA Licensed Breeder
903-808-1142

http://www.freewebs.com/angelfish_37/index.htm
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841291
09/20/09 04:30 PM
09/20/09 04:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Trigger Offline OP
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Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
[quote=BabyLoveGlidersOK, I dont think I am understanding what you are saying Jen.. so let me ask..

Are you saying the USDA chemical analysis of food is wrong? [/quote]

For a glider ABSOLUTELY, WITHOUT A SINGLE DOUBT IN MY MIND IT IS.

BLG humor me for a bit please. Can you give me the ratios for my gliders dinner.
Tonight I will feed oranges, boiled collards and HPW. Can you give me the Ca:P ratio for their evening meal?


-(`v)-MO MONEY!-(`v)-
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Trigger] #841296
09/20/09 04:34 PM
09/20/09 04:34 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Trigger Offline OP
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Spring, Texas
Dr. Chucle's method is also to put the glider under.


-(`v)-MO MONEY!-(`v)-
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Trigger] #841297
09/20/09 04:35 PM
09/20/09 04:35 PM

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OK let me try to understand.. how can a chemical analysis of a banana be different then just that... a chemical analysis of a banana? You are analyzing the banana NOT what eats that banana.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841299
09/20/09 04:37 PM
09/20/09 04:37 PM

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BabyLoveGliders
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Maybe you guys should ask your vets if you can use a sedative instead of anesthesia? When you guys take in your cats or dogs are they putting them under too?

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841302
09/20/09 04:45 PM
09/20/09 04:45 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
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No my dog is not put under, but then again, neither is my child. They are larger, and they can handle the stress a bit better and are a bit easier to handle and hold still than a glider is. I dont know about yours Kris, but if you were to try and hold one of my gliders down and then stick a needle in the base of their tail, I dont think it is gonna be too happy. Even with a light sedation, the glider is going to be able to feel it, especially if the vet misses the first time and has to retry.

For me, it is easier on the glider to be put under. That is why it is not recommended to do it more than once a year. It takes Tim less than two minutes to draw blood and it is the least amount of sedation needed. But that is also why it is recommended to do it if you are already having a procedure done and the glider is already under.

It takes longer for xrays, that is why those are done every couple years unless needed sooner.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841303
09/20/09 04:46 PM
09/20/09 04:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
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Humor me & I'll be happy to share with you. Can you give me the ratio I asked for, I will be feeding 1&1/2 teaspoon HPW mix, 1 tablespoon orange(navel is fine), 1 tablespoon boiled collards.

Also you are only looking at & understanding what you SEE on that site, not everything else involved.

Look, I am not trying to be a terrible pain in your side but I really think there are things that once looked at will make people sit back & laugh because they are really simple they just don't seem like it until looked into.


-(`v)-MO MONEY!-(`v)-
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841305
09/20/09 04:49 PM
09/20/09 04:49 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Trigger Offline OP
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Spring, Texas
My dog is not difficult to hold still nor are veins the size of a glider's.
My gliders are uncooperative little wigglybutts under the BEST of circumstances.


-(`v)-MO MONEY!-(`v)-
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Srlb] #841308
09/20/09 04:53 PM
09/20/09 04:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
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Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
You really think our vets know everything there is to know about our gliders?


Just like the vets dont know it all, neither does the USDA.

Kris, I think what Jen is trying to say is that the USDA is done according to PEOPLE. We digest and eat different areas of the foods, and depending on how it is cooked and processed the values will be different. If you offer cooked collards versus boiled collards, what is the difference in values going to be? For a glider? Very different, and if you look into it you will see why.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841321
09/20/09 05:06 PM
09/20/09 05:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 708
Melbourne Australia
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Originally Posted By: BabyLoveGliders
OK let me try to understand.. how can a chemical analysis of a banana be different then just that... a chemical analysis of a banana? You are analyzing the banana NOT what eats that banana.


Actually a mineral analysis can vary on different foods depending on different variables. Rather than a banana, can I mention honey seeing this is a big part of lots of glider diets.

It has been found that the CA component of honey in the CA/PH ratio can double in some types of honey though the PH ratios usually remain essentially the same. Variables like type of honey, seasonal conditions,type of soil in the harvested region, plant species that the bees harvest, amount of processing the honey receives all contribute to these differences. This can make a difference to the mineral calculations if people making the same diet exactly, use different types of honey.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Srlb] #841331
09/20/09 05:20 PM
09/20/09 05:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Trigger Offline OP
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Glider Addict

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,970
Spring, Texas
Originally Posted By: Srlb
[quote]
Kris, I think what Jen is trying to say is that the USDA is done according to PEOPLE. We digest and eat different areas of the foods, and depending on how it is cooked and processed the values will be different. If you offer cooked collards versus boiled collards, what is the difference in values going to be? For a glider? Very different, and if you look into it you will see why.


That is exactly what I am saying, and I am certainly NOT saying that I have figured it all out. It is very interesting and I think it does deserves consideration.

Here is my answer on sgn as to why I feel the USDA numbers are wrong for gliders, not humans.

OK one example is the way the USDA had figured collards for HUMAN consumption. We boil them, get a fork full & eat them. simple and for us there numbers are accurate.

Now research collards & most any leafy green, the majority of P is concentrated in the stalk, stem, & root. The majority of calcium is concentrated in the thinner leaf sections.

My gliders don't eat the whole thing they eat the leafy part, leaving the stems & [censored] as a gift for me to deal with in the morning & thus my crew are taking in more of the calcium than the phosphorus.

Oranges, the P is concentrated more in the seeds(as it is in most fruits with seeds or pitts) than throughout, of course that is non-available. A given, but the calcium is also concentrated in an area that I eat but my gliders leave, that funny thin membrane around each segment. This causes a difference in the Ca:P due the parts that hold the most mineral vs what parts our gliders actually consume.

Green beans another good one, more P is concentrated in the actual beans than the meat of the ?pod? More calcium is in the meat instead of the beans inside. Me & you eat the whole bean & therefore that ratio is correct for us but due to my brats eating the bean & leaving the pod, for them it is inaccurate.

This is why I say we need to research more of what our true ratios for gliders would be for each food because it is not the same as it is for a human.

Hope everyone can follow that.


-(`v)-MO MONEY!-(`v)-
kids Chance, Dylan, John, & Kayla
Skittles, Snupi, Snuki, Lucy, Shanu, Caspian, Ivy, Kalysta, Kaliya, Santee, Cheyenne, Apache, Comanche, Twirpy, Meribelle, Santeria, Shyamalan, Sebastian, Zoey, Naira & Katsu
www.jensfuzzyfriends.com
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Marz] #841335
09/20/09 05:36 PM
09/20/09 05:36 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,138
Lutz Florida
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OK - First I would like to say I think everyone is looking at the calcium and phosphorus issue in entirely the WRONG way.

Everyone refers only to balancing the RATIO.

I would like for everyone to understand it is not just the ratio of calcium to phosphorus but the AMOUNT of calcium and phosphorus that should be evaluated. There is a big difference nutritionally between a food that offer 20 mg Calcium and 10 mg phosphorus and a food that offers 60 mg calcium and 30 mg phosphorus. Both have a 2:1 ratio but item 2 would offer three times the amount of each.

NONE of us as individuals are able to fully evaluate mg for mg the amounts of each that we feed our gliders. We can only do our best to make sure we are offering what we feel is a balanced diet for our gliders.

I for one would like to see the numbers for recommended ranges of calcium and phosphorus - minimum and maximum daily amounts recommended for each glider. Simply bumping up the amount of calcium with supplements may not be the solution to the issue. If your diet is too high in Phosphorus for the amount of calcium and you bump up the calcium - how can we know if we have just created a feeding that is now TOO HIGH in the AMOUNT of both minerals.

We do not have a list of optimal amounts of calcium, phosphorus, protein, fat, sugar or fiber (or any other nutrient) needed by gliders. Until we have actual values that we can compare our glider diet offerings to, we are all making our best guess at what we individually feel is the best diet for our gliders.

Any study done should be a controlled study. It should not be a comparison of any of the recognized diets or any of the variations we use. The study should be a long term (years not months) study of food combinations that provide a set amount (measured in mg not by ratio) of which ever nutrient(s) are being studied and then a comparison should be made based on the health and any blood value or bone density changes.

Separate studies might need to be done for CA:P metabolism, Protein needs, sugar/carbohydrate/fiber etc.

This is NOT something we can do as a community. It would require a large number of gliders (the past study used only 9 gliders) and many variables would need to be taken into account - cage size and out of cage time as they relates to exercise would need to be controlled/equalized as well as exercise and movement also effects bone density.

We need a team of scientists, vets, nutritionists etc. and I doubt any of this will happen during the lifetime of MY gliders so I am going to continue to offer a diet I feel meets their nutritional needs (based on the current recognized diets but modified to be what I feel is best).


Candy Otte
& the Glider Kids
Sassy, Corky, Mehitabel & Missy
Wacco, Yacco, & Dot
Mindy, Kanobles, Elmo, & Chipper

http://www.gliderkids-diet.com

CandyOtte@aol.com
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: CandyOtte] #841347
09/20/09 05:58 PM
09/20/09 05:58 PM
Joined: Apr 1999
Posts: 5,336
Bee-Bopping round SnakePit USA
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Bourbon Offline
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okay Candy, we wholeheartedly agree with you when you say
Quote:

NONE of us as individuals are able to fully evaluate mg for mg the amounts of each that we feed our gliders. We can only do our best to make sure we are offering what we feel is a balanced diet for our gliders.

I for one would like to see the numbers for recommended ranges of calcium and phosphorus - minimum and maximum daily amounts recommended for each glider. Simply bumping up the amount of calcium with supplements may not be the solution to the issue. If your diet is too high in Phosphorus for the amount of calcium and you bump up the calcium - how can we know if we have just created a feeding that is now TOO HIGH in the AMOUNT of both minerals.

We do not have a list of optimal amounts of calcium, phosphorus, protein, fat, sugar or fiber (or any other nutrient) needed by gliders. Until we have actual values that we can compare our glider diet offerings to, we are all making our best guess at what we individually feel is the best diet for our gliders.


but I think what everyone is missing here.. and not really missing is a starting point. and right now we don't have one..

Jen, I understand what you are saying and I also agree with you regarding the calcium absorptions.. This is definitely a variable to consider with your diet, not just yours but all of them.. Is there a list for GLIDERS? no then why not? it is because someone has not stepped up and taken a chance at making that an issue, it takes one person to talk to others to talk to others to make any differences. but it has to start with a general, that general study will spawn, many other studies. but there has to be a place to start,

the research that peggy, you and others are speaking of, is the long term studies, the master research, the papers that makes vets major grant money and notoriety.

There IS things the community can do , and there are ways to start to find out what is going on. but it isn't going to be by slamming every effort to make attempts at finding out answers, it is far better to work together to figure out ways to make it work.

example, we can start working with calcium absorption rates, but first before we do that we still need to find out what people feed. and if and how, what they feed affects their
bodys.

so that is done with the little baby steps before. I think it is realistic to say that this community is not READY for a full blown study, when no one can even talk about or discuss doing anything.

I keep hearing the talk about the diet research the diet study that was done..

well their figures were primary based on blood, and urine values.. there was so many variables in that study, but alas, it was done by professionals, it did cost a lot of money, and what has anyone to hold in there hands to show for it?

at the bare minimum the community study that Kris is talking about at the minimum will give many people a baseline, for their own future..

peggy you said it, when tim compares to the last ones.. many many people don't even have the first ones. but....

I went to preschool, before I went to public school, and before that , my family watched and taught me.. not professionals, but they were effective enough

you have to start somewhere. if we don't start putting a foot forward, we are not going to learn anything..

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Bourbon] #841353
09/20/09 06:07 PM
09/20/09 06:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
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Considering (based on these conversations) no one truly "knows" the Ca:P ratios (just to start) that a glider needs, somehow we need to obtain that information. It does no good at all to feed the "ABC" diet because it is "recommended" and "nutritionally balanced" when we don't know what a gliders true needs are yet. Don't get me wrong, saying "it does no good at all" isn't really what I mean. I know its the best we have at the moment, so that is what most of us do. But are those diets really good enough for our gliders? I'd like to know what their nutritional needs are, and find out if these diets are accurate. If we find the diets are inadequate, then and only then should those diets be examined and modified as needed. If we don't start somewhere, we'll be having this same conversation many times over in the next several years. JMO


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: Too much calcium? [Re: GliderNursery] #841379
09/20/09 06:47 PM
09/20/09 06:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Bourbon, I have been telling the community now for YEARS to have blood work and xrays done for their gliders so they can have a baseline to go off of...

I know several that HAVE done just that.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Srlb] #841461
09/20/09 08:10 PM
09/20/09 08:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
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80 acres of paradise in KS
People think of calcium deficits and they usually only associate it with bones. But calcium is needed by every system in the body, including muscles. What calcium that is used by the body is used more by muscles than in bone formation. Wild gliders have unlimited space to move around so their bodies require more calcium to keep their bones strong but also to keep their muscles working properly. With humans, swimming uses more muscles than jogging so a swimmer will have a greater need for calcium. A wild glider uses their muscles so much more than our captive gliders so trying to figure out the needs of captive gliders is so important. We can go "off of" the needs of wild gliders but our gliders really are very different in their needs because their environments are so different.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Srlb] #841472
09/20/09 08:19 PM
09/20/09 08:19 PM

T
TWilson
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TWilson
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Quote:
There IS things the community can do , and there are ways to start to find out what is going on. but it isn't going to be by slamming every effort to make attempts at finding out answers, it is far better to work together to figure out ways to make it work.


I may be wrong here, but I've not seen where anyone has slammed anything. What I read was valid questions being asked about how this mission could be accomplished.

Quote:
example, we can start working with calcium absorption rates, but first before we do that we still need to find out what people feed. and if and how, what they feed affects their
bodys.


Now I have a question about this. How can we get a true or at least a fairly accurate result on calcium absorption rates without getting down and dirty with the every little aspect of what someone feeds. For example, we just had this raised with Nicole's gliders. She feeds HPW, Peggy feeds HPW and they clearly had different blood results and everyone went to questioning WHY!!! Reasons why are too many to list, different honey, different environment, illness was involved....the list goes on! I really don't see how we can see how diet affects the bodies when there are too many differences.

Quote:
so that is done with the little baby steps before. I think it is realistic to say that this community is not READY for a full blown study, when no one can even talk about or discuss doing anything.

Again, I saw questioning about how one would even start to figure out a baseline for gliders when there is so much involved in finding it.

Quote:
at the bare minimum the community study that Kris is talking about at the minimum will give many people a baseline, for their own future..


I don't know if there could even be a minimum baseline by comparing blood work from gliders in different homes, again too many differences.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: ] #841480
09/20/09 08:31 PM
09/20/09 08:31 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
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Glideritis Anonymous
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Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
It is a starting point. If gathering this info will allow information needed to submit a proposal for grants, and those grants provide the funding for more indepth "professional" studies, perhaps the ones that WILL run very long term, years, then this should be done.

Writing and submitting a grant proposal isn't as easy as just writing a letter asking for the money. There has to be SOMETHING there that points to the need for further study.

Well, if BML, Judie's BML, Pricilla's diet, Suncoast's diet, HPW, Ensure diet, Reep's and the random non traditional diets are the ones being fed to the gliders who the blood draws are done on, then that gives a, although generic, baseline to further study. It provides info needed to write the grant proposal.

I feed Reeps. I have for 5 years. My diet is pretty simple the way I feed (exactly as is in the diet directions in the diet link) and I have healthy gliders, healthy joeys. But WHAT IF any damage that might be done won't show up in a glider until he/she has been on the diet for 7 years? What IF in 2 years, all my gliders suddenly start showing signs of calcium deficencies? What IF, this study could alert me to that possibility NOW and that it could be avoided by simply adding some calcium to the mix that I use. Wouldn't it be worth it to know now, not in another 2 years when the damage becomes known?


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Dancing] #841506
09/20/09 08:51 PM
09/20/09 08:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,035
Las Vegas, NV/Columbus, OH
DeeDancer Offline
Glider Guardian
DeeDancer  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,035
Las Vegas, NV/Columbus, OH
Originally Posted By: Srlb
Bourbon, I have been telling the community now for YEARS to have blood work and xrays done for their gliders so they can have a baseline to go off of...


I've seen you say this a couple of times in this thread...how often do you (or your vet?) recommend having blood work and xrays done?


Originally Posted By: Dancing
Wild gliders have unlimited space to move around so their bodies require more calcium to keep their bones strong but also to keep their muscles working properly.


I COMPLETELY agree with this. Our diets are based off of what wild gliders eat. Now I don't know if what is being proposed here is the best way to go about finding out what our CAPTIVE gliders need, but I think it's safe to say that our gliders do not require the same amount of any dietary substance as wild gliders. That's definitely something that needs to be looked into.


~Deanna~
Chinchillas: Luke, Yoda, and Pronk
Gliders: Nika, Ranger, and DeeGee

(702)250-5236
Re: Too much calcium? [Re: DeeDancer] #841531
09/20/09 09:25 PM
09/20/09 09:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
I've seen you say this a couple of times in this thread...how often do you (or your vet?) recommend having blood work and xrays done?


Deanna, it is suggested to have ALL your gliders done the first time, and then after that every year on blood work UNLESS there is an illness and they need it again, or every other year. On xrays Tim says every three years or so would be sufficient.Unless of course, there is a reason you have to have them done again. Keep in mind I do have mine done a bit more often then most, but I am also trying to keep an eye on how well the gliders are doing health wise and for continuing reports that my vet likes to keep. thumb


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Dancing] #841561
09/20/09 10:02 PM
09/20/09 10:02 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline
Tech Admn
GliderNursery  Offline
Tech Admn

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: Dancing
It is a starting point. If gathering this info will allow information needed to submit a proposal for grants, and those grants provide the funding for more indepth "professional" studies, perhaps the ones that WILL run very long term, years, then this should be done.

Writing and submitting a grant proposal isn't as easy as just writing a letter asking for the money. There has to be SOMETHING there that points to the need for further study.

Well, if BML, Judie's BML, Pricilla's diet, Suncoast's diet, HPW, Ensure diet, Reep's and the random non traditional diets are the ones being fed to the gliders who the blood draws are done on, then that gives a, although generic, baseline to further study. It provides info needed to write the grant proposal.

I feed Reeps. I have for 5 years. My diet is pretty simple the way I feed (exactly as is in the diet directions in the diet link) and I have healthy gliders, healthy joeys. But WHAT IF any damage that might be done won't show up in a glider until he/she has been on the diet for 7 years? What IF in 2 years, all my gliders suddenly start showing signs of calcium deficencies? What IF, this study could alert me to that possibility NOW and that it could be avoided by simply adding some calcium to the mix that I use. Wouldn't it be worth it to know now, not in another 2 years when the damage becomes known?


I fully agree with you! You have made a very good point. Long term studies need to be conducted.

We need to start somewhere, on a much smaller scale than professionals do that last several years. All of these variables that are being discussed may very well show differences in the levels in gliders ~ therefore showing a NEED for additional research! The additional research will be a much more formal, and professional study. This blood work is just a blind study baseline.


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: Too much calcium? [Re: Srlb] #841566
09/20/09 10:09 PM
09/20/09 10:09 PM

T
TWilson
Unregistered
TWilson
Unregistered
T



Quote:
Writing and submitting a grant proposal isn't as easy as just writing a letter asking for the money. There has to be SOMETHING there that points to the need for further study.

I agree, I worked in the non profit field for 10 years and ALL our funding came from grant monies and it is not easy aquiring a grant.


Quote:
I feed Reeps. I have for 5 years. My diet is pretty simple the way I feed (exactly as is in the diet directions in the diet link) and I have healthy gliders, healthy joeys. But WHAT IF any damage that might be done won't show up in a glider until he/she has been on the diet for 7 years? What IF in 2 years, all my gliders suddenly start showing signs of calcium deficencies? What IF, this study could alert me to that possibility NOW and that it could be avoided by simply adding some calcium to the mix that I use. Wouldn't it be worth it to know now, not in another 2 years when the damage becomes known?


You could always do blood panels now on your gliders and have your vet advise you if everything is as it should be. Just a thought.

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