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Periodontal Problems in Gliders #86343
03/04/06 12:30 PM
03/04/06 12:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,297
Quincy, IL
glidrz5 Offline OP
Serious Glideritis
glidrz5  Offline OP
Serious Glideritis

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Quincy, IL
Periodontal Problems in Gliders

I have had 2 gliders who have suffered from periodontal problems. Sassy suffered from severe periodontal disease and over the course of 1 ½ years lost all but 3 of his teeth, and his son Nicky who's 2 front incisors are effected. Through caring from them from the onset of their troubles, I have learned much on the needs and care of a glider who is afflicted with gum disease.

Diagnosis:

Your vet will be the one who will make the determination as to weather or not your glider is afflicted with gum disease, or if they are in danger of this problem. During your yearly physicals, you should have your vet check your gliders teeth & gums to see that they are healthy, because the sooner that you can diagnosis this and treat it, the better your chances of your glider keeping their teeth.

Sassy

Sassy was the first of my gliders to have gum disease, and unfortunately we did not catch it early in it's onset. The first indication we had was when Sassy started sneezing one morning. I rushed him into the vets office and he was put on an oral antibiotic. We realized after only a few days that this was not going to be enough as Sassy's sneezing continued and did not abate. On a follow up visit, my vet checked his teeth and sure enough that was the root of the infection. Sassy's gums had deteriorated to the point where surgery was necessary to remove the worst of the infected teeth. He had 9 removed at that time. Once his teeth were removed the sneezing stopped. We thought that everything was fine as Sassy recovered from his surgery, and was healthy for the next several months. But then he began to over groom the tip of his tail. We later discovered that this over grooming was directly related to the state of his teeth. When they would hurt, he would use his teeth like a pacificier, or chew toy for a puppy, pulling it through his mouth to provide some relief to his aching gums.
We spent the next year fighting an ongoing battle with gum disease. Sassy became a regular visitor to at the vet's, as we would go in every 4-6 weeks as needed. The sign was always the same, he would start over grooming his tail. So we would take him in & he would open his mouth for the Dr to check his teeth without any crabbing or fussing. Usually 1-2 teeth would fall out during the course of Sassy's visit. Before leaving, Sassy would get an antibiotic injection & a shot of Torb for pain and would go back on his oral antibiotics at home. His gums would heal and he would be fine until the next tooth started up and the whole process started all over again.
When my Sassy passed away on July 8, 2004 he had only 3 out of 40 teeth left.

Nicky

On Dec 23, 2004, we discovered that Sassy's son Nicky was also suffering from periodontal disease. While Nicky suffers from the same problem, it has effected him differently that it did his father. Sassy's problems were centered on his back chewing teeth, while Nicky's is confined to his 2 lower front incisors. Like his father, Nicky started out by sneezing. At the vets office, we noticed that Nicky's 2 front incisors were spreading apart from the swelling caused by the infection in his jaw. Nicky was put on a round of antibiotics to see if that cleared things up. It did, so the surgical removal of his teeth was not necessary, but Nick still suffers from the effects of having gum disease. His lower incisors are now permanently spread apart and are looser than they should be. Unlike Sassy who's indicator was sucking on his tail, Nicky's indicator that his teeth are acting up is quite different. Nicky starts to drop things. He will go to bite into a bug or piece of food and will drop it out of his mouth. So I always know that if he starts dropping his bugs that it's time to go back in to the vets. We have tried to take more preventative measures with Nicky tho. He has a monthly checkup to get his teeth cleaned and I am instructed to use an antibacterial rinse with him daily. I also keep Baytril on hand as he uses it for 3-5 days after each vet visit to prevent infection after having his teeth cleaned and is also on a regular bi-weekly dose to prevent any infection from setting in. (This is prescribed by the vet and the dose was set by him. If you suspect any problems with your glider, please consult your veterinarian before giving any medication)
So far Nicky's two front teeth are hanging in there, tho the left one has become loose to the point where we expect that it will be falling out soon. Hopefully surgery will not be required however.


diet:

You may need to make some dietary changes when dealing with a glider who is suffering from periodontal problems. With Sassy, since he had few teeth to chew with, I offered softer foods and more baby foods in addition to his BML. In addition as it became difficult for him to bite open his superworms (his favorite bug to eat), wax worms (second favorite but) or mealworms, I was forced to cut them open for him. This is a disgusting thing to do, but was necessary as bugs were one of the few things that Sassy would willingly eat when his teeth bothered him. One of the other things that he would eat willingly was peanut butter. I know that this is not the best thing to give a glider due to the high fat content, but it did become a part of Sassy's diet. My vet was consulted on this matter and he agreed that if Sassy would eat it willingly it was better to encourage his appetite and hope that it would stimulate him to eat other things. I am in no way recommending that you include it in your gliders diets as anything other than an occasional treat. I also found that it was better to cook foods until they were soft and mushy to make it easier for Sassy to eat.

I have not had to make as many changes to Nicky's diet. Tho I have switched from feeding him BML to the ensure diet as he will eat it more readily and I feel that if his immune system is in any way compromised by the ongoing problem with his teeth & subsequent infections in his jaw that arise from it that it is more important than ever for him to be getting his vitamins & calcium in his diet. I have also switched from the superworms that he loves to mealworms which are easier for him to eat and don't require as much biting with his front incisors. I'm sure that Nicky misses the big wormies that he adores, but the mealies are much easier on his teeth. Nicky had also become accustomed to having his vegetables cooked and to this day refuses to have his sweet potatoes or asparagus raw.

Daily Care:

When a glider suffers from periodontal disease, it is important to assess the status of their teeth daily. With Sassy this was difficult as the problem lay with his back teeth. Thus a lot of his assessment was based on his behavior. With Nicky it is much easier.
Every evening Nicky will accompany me into the bathroom to have his teeth checked. I will wrap him in a piece of fleece (as described by Jen in her post on giving syringe medicine) and then I will hold him over the sink while I squirt a small amount of antiseptic rinse into his mouth. I do NOT put it toward the back of his mouth as I want him to shake & spit it out rather than swallowing it. I will also dip a Q-Tip into the antiseptic rinse and use it to brush his front incisors - both the outside and the inside to try to catch anything that the rinse missed. Then twice a week, I will also give him his prescribed dose of medicine. Once he has had his nightly dental care, Nicky always gets a bug as a special treat for being a good boy. While he doesn't enjoy taking his medicine or having his teeth brushed by any means, I think that he knows that I'm trying to help him because he never crabs or bites at me. The worst he will do is try to push me away or bury his head in the fleece so I cannot reach him.


Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be


Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #86344
03/04/06 08:30 PM
03/04/06 08:30 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
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in my talking with aussie vets gliders there have branches to chew live ones. they chew on the branches and get the sap out. these are very hard branches. we dont have the same branches here. so we need to keep a hard food in their dish all the time. i use pet pro breeders mix this is the only one they like by pet pro and also use for variety exotic nutrion premium. ive seen an improvement in their teeth at first they had a tough time chewing now they crunch through these like candy. i no a breeder feeding this for yrs and no problems with teeth

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #86345
03/05/06 12:07 AM
03/05/06 12:07 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2,092
Baltimore, MD
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Are problems with teeth/gums genetic or just something that happens?and/or What causes it? Just curious on how that would work. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />




Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #86346
03/05/06 02:17 AM
03/05/06 02:17 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,297
Quincy, IL
glidrz5 Offline OP
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Amber, my vet does think that their problem may be genetic since it was a father & son who have had the problems.


Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be


Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #86347
03/20/06 12:52 PM
03/20/06 12:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,158
Tampa, FL
Xglider Offline
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Chris, a very informative and well put together post. Thank you, and great Job! Hate that you have had to go through all of this, but hopefully it may help others…


* ~ * John * ~ * Sorry store is closed at this time.. <br>
Link -> [b]~~ XtremeGlider ~~ Home of the original Re~set Toys! ~~[/b] <br>
Oct 2012 update.. miss my gliders and my
glider family and think of my friends often!!!
Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #86348
05/12/06 10:58 AM
05/12/06 10:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,297
Quincy, IL
glidrz5 Offline OP
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After battling peridontal problems for over a year and a half, Nicky lost the fight. Today at 9am my vet pulled Nicky's 2 lower front incisors. It will be an adjustment for Nicky to learn to eat without relying on his teeth, but in the long run, it will probably be the best thing for him. Now he will no longer be getting food caught between his teeth to irritate his gums and cause infections.
He was given a shot of torb at the vets office as well as a Baytril injection and will be on oral medication for the next two weeks until he goes back to the vets office for a recheck to make sure that his gums are healing well.
When Nicky feels better, I will post a picture of how he looks without his lower incisors.


Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be


Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #86349
05/12/06 11:01 AM
05/12/06 11:01 AM

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I never knew gliders could get periodontal! I was recently diagnosed myself with moderate periodontal. Who would have known? Thank you for shedding some light on this!

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #86350
05/12/06 11:42 AM
05/12/06 11:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,297
Quincy, IL
glidrz5 Offline OP
Serious Glideritis
glidrz5  Offline OP
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For those of you who are interested......here is a picture of the teeth my vet pulled from Nicky. I knew their lower incisors were big...but WOW.

Attached Files

Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be


Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #86351
05/12/06 11:49 AM
05/12/06 11:49 AM

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Wow! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> They are really big! For such a tiny little creature they sure have some big teeth! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #86352
08/11/06 03:01 AM
08/11/06 03:01 AM

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There is some thought that not eating enough insects (hardbodied ones) causes tooth decay and gum disease. Because gliders cant brush, the insects that they chew on... hence the very sharp teeth... help rub off the sugars and saps that adhere to the teeth and gums causing decay. The exoskeletons of insects acts as a kind of toothbrush for gliders. Gliders were not designed with a mouth full of razor sharp teeth so that they could be vegitarians. In fact glider teeth are really closer to cat teeth if you look beyond the front 2 pair. Only their long tongue is designed for lapping up sweets to complement their bugs. Anyone like honey baked ham... apparently gliders would. Uuummmmm meat and sugar. Branches also offer a good chewing source for them. Mine particularly like to strip branches.

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #86353
08/11/06 04:26 AM
08/11/06 04:26 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,899
Jacksonville, FL
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Of all Chris' gliders...this father/son line is the only one with this issue (and she does feed bugs) and it appears to be genetic with this one line. No amount of bugs or professional dental care would stop the decay-they were even swabbed daily with oral rinse, and cleaned by the vet frequently. I've never heard of other gliders with this severity of periodontal issues (or really the same kind, even) let alone one that ran in a single family-but this one does. With so much careless and mass breeding-it's not unlikely for a problem like this to rear it's head-I know it can in more common pets, especially where breeding is lax. I have one with genetic issues as well, though not in the teeth. Gim was our only one who had issues, and that's because a former owner had broken his jaw and it abscessed.


Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley
Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: Xfilefan] #156713
10/13/06 02:50 AM
10/13/06 02:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,297
Quincy, IL
glidrz5 Offline OP
Serious Glideritis
glidrz5  Offline OP
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One of Jen's gliders has also had a peridontal issue and Lyah ended up having to have a tooth removed. It was a back molar & I know Jen posted a picture of it in the health thread. Can you post it here also Jen? Pretty Please!


Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be


Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: glidrz5] #156730
10/13/06 03:32 AM
10/13/06 03:32 AM

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Of course, I am a human, not a glider, but my mother had very poor nutrition growing up as did her mother. Even tho she took calcium supplements as an adult and extra when carrying me, I have very soft, calcium poor teeth.

However, I was given calcium while growing up, and my children reached adulthood with strong, cavity free teeth, even tho my husband (the son of a dentist who received excellent dental care) also has poor teeth.

I have been told that the nutritional status of the mother when she is a child has a huge influence on the health of the offspring, even if nutritional corrections are made during the adulthood of the mother.

Another reason to know where our suggie came from and what they ate before we breed them.

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #156842
10/13/06 12:57 PM
10/13/06 12:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,297
Quincy, IL
glidrz5 Offline OP
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That is actually what I thought Sassy's problem had resulted from, since I didn't know his history. However when his son developed the same problem it made me think that it was probably genetic rather than nutritional.


Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be


Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: glidrz5] #157851
10/16/06 12:32 AM
10/16/06 12:32 AM

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I'm sorry to hear about your glider's issues.

Periodontal problems are multi-factor problems. Genetics, diet, mental stress and time of exposure all play an important role. In Humans, a stressful job vcan develop a chain reaction that can develop a once chronic disease into an acute, severe case of generalized periodontal problem that, unfortunately, can be controlled but not reversed. The most important factor though is a very specific type of bacteria that cannot pop out of nowhere, but are very common as indigenous flora of the human mouth.

Recent studies (2004) showed that pets receiving food from their owners that actually taste their food are in higher risk of disease than those not exposed to human-contaminated food.

I'm not sure if this is related to this specific case of periodontal problems, but it is good practice to avoid exposing gliders (or any other pets) to fruits that we bite on while preparing their meals.

Interesting that we can see the role of genetics due to the fact that your other gliders, exposed to the same diet, habits, etc did not develop the same level (if any) of the disease.

Interesting topic, would like to hear more about dental issues with gliders.

Rafael.


Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #157860
10/16/06 01:03 AM
10/16/06 01:03 AM

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How interesting.

I always taste the fruit before I feed the suggies. Glad I always eat the piece I taste.

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #157870
10/16/06 01:49 AM
10/16/06 01:49 AM

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Originally Posted By: angelskates
How interesting.

I always taste the fruit before I feed the suggies. Glad I always eat the piece I taste.


So Do I!! As long as you are not feeding them with a direct part of the fruit you touched your mouth with, there is nothing wrong with that. wink


Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #157883
10/16/06 03:33 AM
10/16/06 03:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,297
Quincy, IL
glidrz5 Offline OP
Serious Glideritis
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Hmmmmmmmm, I don't remember feeding them anything I've been nibbling on. It may have happened once or twice but definately not on a regular basis. Interesting tho. Thanks for the imput. Also, you are so very right. We fought to keep Sass & Nicky's teeth as healthy as possible, but knew that they would never be "normal" once the problem was diagnosed.


Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be


Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: glidrz5] #157998
10/16/06 12:02 PM
10/16/06 12:02 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
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Manitowoc, WI
BeckiT Offline
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That's a very interesting point about not feeding things that you've bitten. I always taste with a plastic spoon or cut a small piece of the fruit so no worries there smile

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: BeckiT] #158042
10/16/06 01:15 PM
10/16/06 01:15 PM

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Very interesting case history. Thanks for sharing. How is your little one doing now without his teeth? Is he eating okay? It would be cool to see some pics if you get a chance. sounds like you have been very dilligant with your little ones doing you best to care for them with their unique problems. sounds like you did you best... seems like genetics to me, especially if moms okay. Maybe its a Y linked gene!

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #158289
10/16/06 10:38 PM
10/16/06 10:38 PM
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Quincy, IL
glidrz5 Offline OP
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Nicky is doing great without his 2 loweer incisors. He is able to eat almost everything so long as I cut it into smaller pieces for him. My vet was very pleased with his progress at our last visit and didn't need to see Nick again for 6 months when he would go in for his wellness exam.


Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be


Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: glidrz5] #158538
10/17/06 12:34 PM
10/17/06 12:34 PM
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Ft. Pierce, FL
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My girl Ollie also lost her 2 lower incisors and is doing well w/smaller cut pieces also. The only thing she has difficulty w/are the yogurt drops. It takes her a long time to eat so they've become a very rare treat for her.

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: thefotokat] #158783
10/17/06 10:29 PM
10/17/06 10:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,297
Quincy, IL
glidrz5 Offline OP
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I usually break Nicky's yogurt drops into several smaller bite size pieces. That way he can enjoy them also. He just pops a whole piece into his mouth & chews with his back teeth.
About the only thing that Nicky really HAS trouble with are bugs larger than mealies. He is unable to "immobolize" them or open them up to eat. That kinda bummed him out when I gave Meeko a grasshopper from the "Can O Hoppers" & he didn't get one. I showed one to him & he looked at it & then looked up at me with the most pathetic look on his face that clearly said "Mom....I want it but I CAN'T eat it" So I went & got him some mealies & he was happy again because he could munch them up.
So we've made some simple modifications to his diet, but nothing really major.


Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be


Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: glidrz5] #187083
12/17/06 08:36 AM
12/17/06 08:36 AM

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Chris thank you for posting this about your babies. I'm sorry to hear about the passing of Sassy. But am glad to hear is son is doing well.

I have had two gliders with tooth loss. But am not sure if it is due to periodontal disease. In both cases it has been the upper two front teeth. Piper came to me as a rescue. She had been in at least a couple of homes after being in a shelter and I have no idea of the hx before that. When she came to me she was missing part of her tail, both ears were torn and she had a badly ulcerated eye. The cornea later blew and she lost sight in that eye but did not loose the eye itself. During one of her routine checks with our very wonderful vet he noticed that she did not have her upper teeth. Since these are not their primary teeth and are smaller it didn't seem to cause as many problems for her. I did have to start feeding her softer foods and like you did for Sassy cut up her super worms and gut them and your right it is disgusting. I would tell Piper, " Boy I must really love you because this is really gross" She would grin up at me. "I know you love me mommy"

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #187089
12/17/06 09:10 AM
12/17/06 09:10 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,899
Jacksonville, FL
Xfilefan Offline
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So the teeth were already missing before you got her, Ark Mom? frown


Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley
Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: Xfilefan] #187119
12/17/06 11:19 AM
12/17/06 11:19 AM

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Chris, may I ask how old your gliders were when the periodontal disease started up?

Thank you for posting this thread, it is very informative.

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #187130
12/17/06 11:38 AM
12/17/06 11:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,297
Quincy, IL
glidrz5 Offline OP
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I'm not sure on Sassy. He was an adult when I got him. They said he was 9 months old, but I really don't believe them there. He was the same size that he was for his entire life when he first came home so I believe he was older than a year. With Nicky tho, his problems didn't really develop until he was 6 1/2- 7 years old.


Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be


Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: glidrz5] #187147
12/17/06 12:02 PM
12/17/06 12:02 PM
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Same here, Ollie was at least 9 years when she came to me and her perio developed.

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: thefotokat] #187173
12/17/06 01:20 PM
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With Piper I'm not sure if she had them or not when I got her. We had not had her very long before it was discovered she was missing the upper teeth. My vet at first asked if they were supposed to as they are so much smaller than the lower teeth they just don't stand out as much. Piper started to fail a few months ago and I made the hard decision to have her put to sleep. She is at peace now and over the rainbow bridge she can eat the biggest of mealworms.

Mia is our other glider that is missing her upper teeth, and I think she only recently lost them. Here gums look ok so we are not sure why she lost them. She is doing ok and doesn't seem to miss them. She can still eat even the biggest of worms. We are keeping an eye on her.

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #187355
12/17/06 11:32 PM
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Ollie lost her 2 lower incisors but she is able to eat her regular diet...the only modification I've made is to chop the fruits/veggies into tinier pieces. She was missing out on her yogies until Chris told me to cut them up too.

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: thefotokat] #197626
01/08/07 08:12 PM
01/08/07 08:12 PM
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Not so good news from the vet: Ollie will be losing at least one more tooth. I noticed something was off w/her...couldn't put my finger on it, but felt it was the perio flaring up again. Dr. S confirmed it. She's got another infection. He'll be doing surgery on Wednesday to remove at least the one tooth and he'll take a look around at the rest of her mouth. We're starting antibiotics tonight. He still feels that the initial perio infection was so severe that it caused the lower jaw to fracture. I'm hoping to get some pics of the surgery and extracted tooth. Keep her in your thoughts because she's over 11 years old and this will be tough on her (and my nerves!) I'll let you know how it turns out.

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: thefotokat] #197651
01/08/07 09:15 PM
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glidrz5 Offline OP
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Poor baby. She'll be in my prayers. You may want to get several varieties of baby food to tempt her with during her recovery. Also after Sass had surgery to remove his teeth he needed pain injections, antibiotic injections and sub-Q fluids daily for 4-5 days to help him get over the worst of it. The oral stuff just wasn't cutting it, so keep that in mind with her. Also, the daily flushing with oral antibiotic rinse helped Nicky heal faster when he had his front incisors removed.


Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be


Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: glidrz5] #197682
01/08/07 10:27 PM
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I'm sorry to hear your little one is needing surgery. I hope she will be ok. It's good that she lets you check her so you can get an early detection of the problem. She must be very bonded to you. We will keep her in our prayers. Glider hugs and kisses to her, and her glider mom.

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #197734
01/09/07 12:43 AM
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thefotokat, Im sorry to hear that your baby has to go threw this. I have been questioning and wondering the why and what to do's with periodontal problems on WSGN. I know it may be caused by poor diet but what else. Medications?
Mom's milk not having enough calcium?
I would be very interested as to any insight you can share or anyone , photos would be great.

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #197777
01/09/07 06:13 AM
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Lack of use causes periodontal issues! Soft sugary diets are not good for teeth, we all know that exercise is important to our suggies because it improves the absorption of calcium to make bones strong, so surely it stands to reason that teeth need to be used in order to make them strong. As the gliders angel has already said they get live branches to chew on in Australia which keep the teeth and gums strong and healthy.

Imagine you eat a diet of coca cola (not diet or sugar free) and doughnuts and don't brush your teeth - what's going to happen to them? The honey in the diets in the US contain loads of honey, honey is 75% - 95% sugar.

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #197796
01/09/07 09:40 AM
01/09/07 09:40 AM
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Quincy, IL
glidrz5 Offline OP
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With Sassy & his son Nicky, I believe the cause was genetics. They had a well balanced diet and plenty of fresh branches to chew on if they wanted to and it still developed.


Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be


Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #197797
01/09/07 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted By: moorie999
Lack of use causes periodontal issues! Soft sugary diets are not good for teeth, we all know that exercise is important to our suggies because it improves the absorption of calcium to make bones strong, so surely it stands to reason that teeth need to be used in order to make them strong. As the gliders angel has already said they get live branches to chew on in Australia which keep the teeth and gums strong and healthy.

Imagine you eat a diet of coca cola (not diet or sugar free) and doughnuts and don't brush your teeth - what's going to happen to them? The honey in the diets in the US contain loads of honey, honey is 75% - 95% sugar.

Ok so what your saying is they chew the branches and not just remove the bark to get to the sap in their natural habitat. I have branches and they do not chew them. And your saying that they should not be givin the well know "proven" diets out there names unmentioned (mine do not eat)because they are 75%-95% honey. The hard bodied bugs we feed is not enough to clean the teeth.
I do understand you need to have your gliders teeth cleaned at least once a year, but I an not willing to have them put under general anistesia to do this. That is why I am asking the same question. What do we do to prevent it, and what is the treatment if they have it.

glidrz5, thank you at least that is something to go on and reserch. I unfortunatly will never know about their parents.

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #197807
01/09/07 10:08 AM
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I felt the same way, Kora. My guys get plenty of things to chew, as evidenced with my impending need to eventually replace my wooden perches. They also get bugs (mealies and grasshoppers), which you can hear crunch, and is even stated in the BML diet as not being essential to the diet itself, but important for cleaning teeth. They also get euc chew stick, and whenever they get them, they go to town "brushing" their teeth with them.
Honey is only one component of the BML, so overall, I don't consider the diet to be overly sugary (or for those who have tasted it, I've smelled it and it doesn't smell like it would be that sweet).
I know my guys are young, so I'm not the expert on this, and they haven't been to the vet much yet, but the vet told me that their teeth looked great. I'm sure others who have had gliders longer, with exponentially more vet checks than mine, will have the same remarks with a similar diet.
The underlying causes in a lot of the ones on this thread appear to be possibly genetics, abcesses and jaw injury, and unknown (I wasn't sure if some of these gliders were rescued or rehomed) which could have a multitude of reasons, including poor diet. Also, consider that these are potentially older gliders. It may just be inherent--gliders generally don't live that long in the wild. Older animals (and people) lose their teeth-it happens.

And thephotokat--good luck with Ollie. I'm always excited to see gliders reaching the double digits, and I hope everything goes well with her surgery.

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #197809
01/09/07 10:10 AM
01/09/07 10:10 AM
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glidrz5 Offline OP
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Most gliders do not need to have their teeth cleaned by the vet, their diet should take care of it. The only time they should need to be cheaned is if there is a problem. Nicky would go in to get his cleaned/checked every month because he tended to get food caught between his teeth & this irritated his gums, which caused them to become inflamed which made the teeth worse. It was a continual circle that just kept getting worse until he had to have his teeth removed.

However, you should have your vet check your gliders teeth/gums during your yearly wellness check just to make sure that everything is OK.


Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be


Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #197811
01/09/07 10:15 AM
01/09/07 10:15 AM
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Manitowoc, WI
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Originally Posted By: Korasmommy
I do understand you need to have your gliders teeth cleaned at least once a year, but I an not willing to have them put under general anistesia to do this.


I've never heard this tidbit about needing to have yearly dentals dunno Is there a place that has this information? I know my pom has to have yearly dentals and I always worry about anethesia, and he's 4 pounds, so I'd be even more worried about having it done to the gliders!

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: BeckiT] #197824
01/09/07 11:07 AM
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glidrz5 Offline OP
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Becki, don't worry, they don't need dental cleanings. Just have your vet look at their teeth/gums during your yearly wellness check to make sure that everything is OK. Mine needed cleaning because they had problems and the boys were not put under anestetic. My vet basically just looked at the teeth & cleaned any obvious food build up from between the teeth while they were awake & crabbing. All that was really needed was a shot of Torb after and a shot of antibiotics to be on the safe side.


Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be


Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: glidrz5] #197830
01/09/07 11:20 AM
01/09/07 11:20 AM
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Thanks Chris smile I'm a worry wart @ times wink

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: BeckiT] #197848
01/09/07 12:31 PM
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Chris, I'm so glad you posted to clear up that "yearly dental cleaning" thing. I've had gliders 9 years (more or less) and never had ANY dental problems and never had any have their teeth cleaned.


620-704-9109
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I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: Dancing] #197910
01/09/07 02:30 PM
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Ok I found the artical that claims Regular dental cleanings and oral examinations are required to help prevent this condition. I can not add the link or author's name as I do not have permission to do so.
When I asked my vet on the cleanings he stated they have to be put to sleep to do this and is recommended at least once a year.

Another question. Do they get cavities?
Or do they just rott form the root?



Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #198044
01/09/07 07:13 PM
01/09/07 07:13 PM
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BeckiT Offline
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I agree they need to have dental exams when they have their wellness checks, but I would never subject my gliders to a dental cleaning under anesthesia, especially since it doesn't seem to be neccessary to have yearly cleanings done...

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: BeckiT] #198069
01/09/07 07:56 PM
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Here's one link I found where they recommend the yearly cleanings. Again, I don't personally think it's worth the risk unless you have a glider with dental problems...

I've not had a glider with teeth problems, so I can't tell you if they get cavities or their teeth rot, sorry dunno

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: BeckiT] #198133
01/09/07 09:58 PM
01/09/07 09:58 PM
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I've done dentals on dogs and cats (filled in at a vet while one of the techs was out) and they build up tartar just like humans. A professional dental cleaning is needed to remove that. From my experience w/Ollie's problems, no tartar is visible above the gum and there was none present on the last teeth extracted. Genetics does play a big role in perio disease...both animal and human. The bacteria that cause it can also be transmitted. I am Ollie's 3rd home (that I know of). She was never fed a proper diet prior to coming to me (again, that I know of) and she was at least 9 years old when we found each other. In humans, many abcesses are not able to be diagnosed w/out radiographs. Unless the person is complaining of pain, they can go unnoticed. Gliders can't tell us what's wrong...and it was when I noticed a change in her eating habits and the fistula that the diagnosis was made. The abcess began to erode the bone and until it did as much damage as it did, neither my vet nor I found it. Radiographs are not a standard part of a well visit. The initial infection was so severe that we believe her lower jaw was broken and this has caused more complications and a chronic instability of the jaw. Hopefully, we will be able to find other ways to diagnose it earlier, but for now, a keen eye and knowledge of your glider's behaviour is your best bet. My vet will try to get some good pics tomorrow and I'll post any that will be informative. Like Becki said, the risks of general anesthesia outweigh the possible benefits of professional cleanings, and even after going through this I wouldn't recommend it.

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: thefotokat] #198185
01/09/07 11:11 PM
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That is exactly what I was saying, and pointing out. It is recommended, but I will not put my gliders under anesthesia again unless it is absolutely necessary. Thank you all for your input. I feel I need to continue my reserch and find more answers.
One more question please. If it is food will it look like food or will it turn black? How do you remove it?
Thanks again

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #198312
01/10/07 04:31 AM
01/10/07 04:31 AM
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Kate, one of mine had to have a tooth pulled, Lyah (I'll try and remember to post the pics I took of the tooth when I get home-we had to take the pic of the removed molar through a magnifying glass to make it visible enough to see. The tooth itself was perfect-no issues with any other teeth, no tartar, no discolorations, no nothing. The infection that loosened it may have started in the gums (say something hard got wedged between the tooth and gum), and went into her sinus...the rest of her teeth and gums look awesome. dunno All of my gliders with mealies seem to get perfect scores on teeth-except for the abrupt facial swelling, we likely wouldn't have known there was a problem. She did go under anesthesia so the vet could check all her teeth when she had to pull the loose one-but that looseness could have been caused by the infection as well, since nothing was wrong with the tooth itself (I have had 7 molars pulled, 3 broken at time of extraction, and know what infection in the jaw can do). None of these sound as if decay is the issue.


Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley
Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: Xfilefan] #198380
01/10/07 12:00 PM
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glidrz5 Offline OP
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I know with my boys that decay didn't seem to be the problem either. The problem with them was in their gums rather than in their teeth. Their gums, just like other humans/animals with gum disease, would become very red & inflamed. There didn't seem to be any facial swelling with my kids, unlike with Jens. I don't really know why that was, but with my boys the first indidcation that there was a problem was sneezing. As a matter of fact we thought that Sassy had a cold initially. It was only when it wouldn't clear up that we looked further for a less obvious cause.


Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be


Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: glidrz5] #198435
01/10/07 02:13 PM
01/10/07 02:13 PM
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OK, just picked Ollie up from the vet. He had to extract 3 teeth due to gum infection. The teeth themselves had no problems. There is a hole in the anterior part of her jaw...the area where the initial fistula was, but Dr. S was worried about stress on her at that point and felt it was better to leave alone for now. He said it can be closed, but we'll keep an eye on her for now. We'll be continuing w/antibiotics for the next week. Daily irrigation and mouth checks will be even more essential now that she's lost more teeth. She came through the surgery like a champ, and is now curled up inside my shirt w/her sister. I have pics the vet took that I'll try to post later tonight when I get home. Thanks to everyone who sent warm thoughts our way! mlove

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: thefotokat] #198464
01/10/07 02:56 PM
01/10/07 02:56 PM
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Bless her little heart. Kate, seeing the great care you are giving to Ollie really reassures my heart and mind about Jasper and Daisy. Even if they only get half the care and love, they are going to be so spoiled indeed.

Prayers for her speedy recovery and hopes that this will be the end of her problems.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: Dancing] #198506
01/10/07 03:41 PM
01/10/07 03:41 PM
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off_topic T, it means so much to me that you and B entrusted these two beautiful little sweeties to me! They are definitely spoiled! mlove hug2

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #206376
01/24/07 05:45 AM
01/24/07 05:45 AM

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Originally Posted By: Korasmommy

Ok so what your saying is they chew the branches and not just remove the bark to get to the sap in their natural habitat. I have branches and they do not chew them. And your saying that they should not be givin the well know "proven" diets out there names unmentioned (mine do not eat)because they are 75%-95% honey. The hard bodied bugs we feed is not enough to clean the teeth.
I do understand you need to have your gliders teeth cleaned at least once a year, but I an not willing to have them put under general anistesia to do this. That is why I am asking the same question. What do we do to prevent it, and what is the treatment if they have it.

glidrz5, thank you at least that is something to go on and reserch. I unfortunatly will never know about their parents.


No actually that's not what I'm saying, they gouge holes in branches and strip bark. What hard bodied bugs do you feed? Mealworms aren't exactly hard bodied are they? They don't have to crack a shell like they would beetles do they? The back teeth are designed for compacting and crunching through shells so they can then take out the soft nutritious body and discard the rest.

I don't feed the Leadbeater modifications - any of them I've had only bad experiences with them (I've tried 3 of them!), and I've never had to have my suggies teeth cleaned! I've never had any periodontal issues at all, I have over 30 gliders and I've kept them for 5 years, the oldest is almost 10 now (she was an adult when she came to us) and still no dental issues what so ever. I'm not saying the Leadbeater mods are 75-95% honey, but that honey is 75-95% sugar which isn't good for teeth. Also the lack of having anything to chew (not just strip) could add to the weakening of the teeth and gums. Also lets not forget the acid in the fruit we feed also plays a part in stripping the enamel off teeth.

I'm no scientist or vet, but because father and son both have issues doesn't necessarily mean it's genetic especially if they are both being fed the same diet. Genetics may have a part to play but I don't think it's the whole problem.

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #206391
01/24/07 08:18 AM
01/24/07 08:18 AM
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There are a lot of things that can affect tooth and gum health, including bad diet, lack of nutrients, genetic predisposition, bad diet in the parents, etc., etc.. I've had ONE glider who had to have a tooth pulled-major infection. You wouldn't know it to look at her mouth-the only clue was that when the vet checked all the teeth after her face swelled and she started making strange noises, was that one was loose. When she took the tooth (which was fine by all appearances), the amount of pus that began to drain from the socket-in my vet's words-"was an incredible amount". The teeth were clean, the gums 'looked' healthy. This glider came to me at between 1 and 2 years of age and had been fed glider grub (and stank to high heaven until BML and clean surroundings for about a month). For some reason every rescue I've had on that stuff stinks horribly. None of the other 25 have ever had a tooth issue-their teeth are clean and free of any buildup at every vet check, as were Lyah's (the one with the pulled molar), gums pink and healthy looking, and all teeth but that one in good condition. I don't feed hard foods (canned crickets are as hard as they get-or yogurt drops, sometimes SOFT dried fruit) because I've had to deal with jaw/face infections, that stopped when items like nuts, cheerios, etc, were taken away. My guys have branches in their cages...and ignore them (except Teal'c, who chews on ANYTHING, be it fabric, plastic, wood, or anything else-he's ruined more pouches than I can count, but when he tried to eat thru a nestbox, I figured fabric was less risky than wood or plastic in his gut. Veggies also contain natural sugars (especially corn)-though most people don't realize it. The starches are converted into sugars in the body. Sap (the wild diet) is a sugar-which is where the name came from..."sugar" glider.

Because of unethical breeders, lack of information, megabreeders (where you can't EVER be sure the parents either got the proper nutrition, or the joeys are unrelated (think buying from pet stores, gun/home shows, fairs, flea markets, and so on)...these issues will happen. I honestly don't think the diets contribute significantly. How to deal with these issues when they come up, recognize when there is a problem, IS something we can control, though-which is why this topic is here.


Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley
Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: Xfilefan] #206405
01/24/07 09:30 AM
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In the UK, dental problems are very rarely an issue, I know of many suggie owners (because I'm the only person in the UK selling suggies supplies they all come to me!) and I've heard of one issue. And that person (I can't even remember who it was) feeds a leadbeater mod. Even the rescue suggies I've had including severe nutritional problems (REALLY bad HLP) have no tooth issues at all.

What the heck is glider grub? I presume it's a 'complete' pelleted diet?? It really concerns me when I see posts saying you mustn't feed beetles (for example) because it'll scratch the roof of the mouth and cause infections (I read it on this board!!). How do they cope in the wild? Hard food isn't the problem - it's what is causing the cavities, infections or whatever, the hard food only irritates it. Look at all the posts on 'lumpy jaw' most of the gliders that suffer this are on a Leadbeater mod of one description or another (I'm NOT bashing!) and that's mainly because it's so ingrained that you must NOT feed hard food, so then either these gliders are suffering nutritional shortages from the diet or their teeth are being rotted from the sugar in the mix and the sugar and acid in the fruit.

Yes recognition and knowing how to deal with it is very important, and it's good that it's being addressed, but surely that's just papering over the cracks? The reason gliders are suffering these issues needs to be identified and rectified and I don't think you should rule out the diet issue just yet ...

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #206412
01/24/07 09:43 AM
01/24/07 09:43 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,899
Jacksonville, FL
Xfilefan Offline
Serious Glideritis
Xfilefan  Offline
Serious Glideritis

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Jacksonville, FL
I'm not sure what all is in the glider grub, but it looks and smells like repackaged dog food, and gliders that come to me on it stink like crazy. I'm not ruling out diet entirely, but I don't think it's the main issue, either. I'm all for feeding bugs-mine get them, fresh, canned, and freeze dried-but they don't get hard cereals or nuts anymore. $3,000 worth of vet bills was enough (for ONE glider). I don't think it's the staple, but the extras that will make the difference. The leadbeaters gets their vits/minerals down them, and they have to go down somehow. But a dry food they can't suck anything out of I don't feel has any value whatsoever, including pellets, glider grub, etc.-it's not something they'd eat in the wild. They don't eat tree bark, just scrape it away for the sap. Leadbeater's, consistency wise, is similar to that sap.


Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley
Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: Xfilefan] #206420
01/24/07 09:58 AM
01/24/07 09:58 AM

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Tree bark has been found in the feces of wild gliders, so although they don't mean to eat the bark it does go down. They don't eat hard pellets in the wild but they don't eat bml and fruit either do they? It is of similar consistency to sap yes but the nutritional value is completely different. It has also been mentioned in other posts a number of times about Leadbeater mods containing too many vits and calcium - could this also lead to a weakness too? Too much is after all as bad as not enough.

You'd be amazed at what they can suck out of dried food - I know I use a certain kind (not discussing it on THIS board though!) they do exactly the same as they would fruit, chew it, roll it around a bit and then spit out the 'husk'. I'm not saying a diet that is solely dry food is good - I'm certainly not saying that at all, personally I wouldn't feed a dry 'complete' diet to my suggies because I think they need variety, but I don't think a small amount of hard food is a problem for gliders with healthy teeth - obviously it would irritate if the suggie already has cavities.

$3000 is certainly alot of money!! And I understand that you've obviously learnt by your bad experience, and I have too which is why I won't use Leadbeaters mods or original.

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #206433
01/24/07 10:35 AM
01/24/07 10:35 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,297
Quincy, IL
glidrz5 Offline OP
Serious Glideritis
glidrz5  Offline OP
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,297
Quincy, IL
I honestly don't know what the peridontal problems that my gliders suffered is caused by. With Sassy, I first thought that it was caused from a lack of proper nutrition when he was young. Perhaps he had not gotten enough calcium in his diet or something on that order. Then when his son developed the same problem my vet began to think that it was a possible genetic issue since none of my other gliders had dental problems and were on the same diet as Sassy & Nicky. Unfortunately, we will probably never know if this was the case since Sassy has passed away as has Nicky's other sibling Toby, and Nicky himself is neutered.

As to diet, I do not believe that this was the cause, as I said before I had multiple gliders on the same diet and only 2 of them developed the peridontal issues. I am also not going to get in a debate on diets in this thread. This thread is to inform others of the ways I recognized the problem & what we (my vet & I) have done as a result of it.


Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be


Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: glidrz5] #206445
01/24/07 11:00 AM
01/24/07 11:00 AM

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I think that with this condition, as with many geriatric conditions of suggies, it is difficult to use behaviour in the wild as a model, since suggies in the wild do not live long enough to develop these problems.

Lumpy jaw is a condition that occurs in animals with gums that retract and extend over the teeth, trapping food below the gum line that can then decay and cause an abscess. Suggies do not have this type of retracting/extending gum. I am more and more seeing the term 'lumpy jaw' used to describe most any abscess on the suggies face. I find it confusing to use the same term for two such diverse conditions.

It has been noted that one of the first signs of periodontal disease has been sneezing. That makes sense as the roots of the teeth are in close proximity to the sinus cavities in the head. A sinus infection creates swelling in the area that presses on the roots to the teeth. The opposite is also true.

I wonder if periodontal disease can be precipitated by sinus issues in suggies?

In humans, degerative jaw disease (bone loss) has many causes, including hormonal changes due to aging. These changes alter calcium metabolism in the body, among other things. It seems significant that this problem seems to occur in older suggies, that are past their breeding prime...menopausal so to speak.

One would therefore have to wonder about the effect of surgically induced male menopause (neutering) on the development of the condition. I would have to wonder what percentage of neutered males develop periodontal disease compared to the percentage of intact males that develop the condition.

While diet certainly may play a role in this condition, it seems that there is too little data available at this time to draw any conclusion as to cause. IMHO

There are many avenues to explore.

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #206482
01/24/07 12:06 PM
01/24/07 12:06 PM

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Originally Posted By: angelskates

Lumpy jaw is a condition that occurs in animals with gums that retract and extend over the teeth, trapping food below the gum line that can then decay and cause an abscess. Suggies do not have this type of retracting/extending gum. I am more and more seeing the term 'lumpy jaw' used to describe most any abscess on the suggies face. I find it confusing to use the same term for two such diverse conditions.


This is one of my bug bears - suggies DON'T get lumpy jaw which is why I used the ' ', but I did a huge post complaining about how inaccurate the term was and basically was told to stop moaning, it's used because it's easier to type lumpy jaw than periodontal issues so ... yadda yadda yadda!

I think the point about neutering would be a very interesting topic, everyone seems too quick to just blame hard food (which lets be honest does get most of the blame.) Neutering hasn't been going on long enough to know the long term effects, it would be interesting to know sexes of the animals that are afflicted and whether neutered or un neutered, the diet they are fed, any history in the lineage. I'm not saying it's not genetic, but I think we're wrong to just say it is without any real proof, I still think the sugary diets play a big part. I mean take for example my family (yes I know I'm human!) my dad is over 60, he's got absolutely perfect straight teeth and he's never had any dental work done at all, my sister and I however both have fillings and they're not perfectly straight! My dad's parents both had a complete set of false teeth ... so genetic?

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #206493
01/24/07 12:27 PM
01/24/07 12:27 PM

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I disagree with the neutering issue, as it's not like menopause in men--so to speak. Sperm production in men continues, as it's been proven that men retain their fertility well into old age. Yet, these men can still have peridontal problems. I know I'm talking humans, but I'm thinking we can cross the species lines a bit in making these types of assumptions.
Also, people get their dogs or cats neutered, and this has been done for quite some time--much MUCH longer than gliders, at least. Is there any indication of increased peridontal problems in them?
There is indication, at least in humans, that calcium absorption DOES decrease with age, and they also exhibit increased peridontal problems in them... With captive gliders living much longer than their wild counterparts, who is to say it's not just something that happens with age? Even so, there are owners who've had gliders well into their teens with no indication of tooth problems...
I know wild animals begin losing their teeth when they are older, as well as older domesticated pets like dogs.
I'm still not totally discounting diet, and even though I feed a primarily soft diet, they do have the additions of bugs and branches or chew sticks (I have eucalyptus chew sticks, not the colored ones for rodents at the pet store..)
I'm also not discounting genetic reasons, or any of the other reasons given for this...

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: thefotokat] #206790
01/24/07 09:21 PM
01/24/07 09:21 PM

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This is a very good post. I am going through this right now with Boo. Did any of your gliders that had teeth problems have really bad breath? Boo's breath is so gross smelling. I am just hoping that the antibiotics and the rinse will make it go away soon. I haven't been using it long. She also drools a lot in her sleep. Has anyone noticed drooling in their gliders when they have periodontal issues? The vet told me that the drooling is a sign that something is wrong with their mouth.

Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: ] #206858
01/24/07 10:31 PM
01/24/07 10:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,297
Quincy, IL
glidrz5 Offline OP
Serious Glideritis
glidrz5  Offline OP
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 7,297
Quincy, IL
I didn't notice that their breath smelled (tho I don't know that I ever really smelled it), tho I do agree that this is a great indicator. My cat had nasty smelling breath when she needed to have a few teeth removed. I also never noticed mine drooling. The first indication I really had was the constant sneezing.


Chris
Illusion, Malcom, Isabell, Annabelle, Zach, Isis, Aly & Indy
AND Miss Emmy & Miss Chloe kitties

:rbridge: My Angels: You are always in my heart.

You've flown to the rainbow
and wait there for me
Someday I will join you
together to be


Re: Periodontal Problems in Gliders [Re: glidrz5] #206923
01/25/07 12:44 AM
01/25/07 12:44 AM

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It is not true that sugs in the wild do not live as long as those in captivity. It depends upon their protection from predation and in some isolated areas, gliders live long lives in the wild. Also rehabbers and certain other facilities keep sugar glider colonies in huge more natural environments and, without predation and w/good diets, these animals live as long as those kept as pets - up to 15 or so years.

Teeth begin forming prenatally so nutrition before breeding and prenatal nutrition w/adequate protein, Ca, and vitamin D are critical.

I haven't been able to wrap my brain around high simple sugar content of diets and strong teeth but people have old gliders that have eaten a high sugar diet for years. I also question the use of one of the least absorbable form of calcium as opposed to using more absorbable forms of this mineral. Maybe less of a more absorbable form would be better than more calcium carbonate.

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