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BML and liver failure? #905297
02/10/10 07:42 PM
02/10/10 07:42 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,048
Londonderry, NH
sweetReaper Offline OP
Glider Guardian
sweetReaper  Offline OP
Glider Guardian

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,048
Londonderry, NH
A close friend of mine who owns 6 gliders just lost one of her poor babies today. It was an 6 year old male glider and the vet told her that he died of liver failure due to his diet (BML). She said that the diet contained simple sugars and was too rich, leading to the liver failure. She says that honey should be avoided at all costs. I spoke to a few of my aunts friends soon after, all of whom are exotic vets here in New Hampshire (aside from one in Florida), and they all told me the same thing. Any opinions? I feed my girls HPW, which contains a lot of honey, so I was concerned hearing about this. Has there been any research done as far as finding a better substitute for honey?


Sarah is currently a slave to:

Joe <3 - boyfriend
Kasu, Chihiro, Haku, Io - the suggies :bb: :grey: :grey: :rtmo:
Miki :rbridge: You are greatly missed <3
Fuuko, Rin, Hinata - the ratties
Two super cute axolotls

"It can't rain all the time" - Eric Draven
Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: sweetReaper] #905300
02/10/10 07:46 PM
02/10/10 07:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 439
Centerville, TN
K
Kara Offline
Glider Lover
Kara  Offline
Glider Lover
K

Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 439
Centerville, TN
This is the first I have heard of this. I'm shocked, to be honest.

Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: Kara] #905302
02/10/10 07:48 PM
02/10/10 07:48 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,448
Columbia, SC
saturngirl Offline
Glider Slave
saturngirl  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,448
Columbia, SC
I'll be watching this post. As I have my gliders on the bml diet and have since I got them in '07.


*~*Tara*~*
5~suggies "mini" Cooper & Sophie
Paisley, Maci & Smurf
2 ~cats Kia and Gabby~
1 ~silly puppy Darci~

Rest in Peace Chili Pepper dog...you will always have a special place in my heart




Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: saturngirl] #905326
02/10/10 08:23 PM
02/10/10 08:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,799
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,799
St. Johns, Florida
I dont buy it sorry.

What parts of the tissues and organs and brain were sent off for a histopath? The only way to know for certain if diet is the cause of death is to rule out ANY and ALL other ideas. If any other part of the body starts malfunctioning, the liver will then not work as it should. That is in any living creature with a liver, including humans.

With all the deaths and necropsies Dr.Tristan has done, he has always stated that he does not believe ANY of them are diet related. And if vets would look deeper into the death than to just see the liver has got issues, than the lead cause may be found on what started the liver failure in the first place.

So No, I do not believe the glider died from BML.

I am not saying however that ANY of the diets out there (including HPW) has no impact on the bodies organs once they do start experiencing problems. There is just not enough research out there to know for sure.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: Srlb] #905337
02/10/10 08:41 PM
02/10/10 08:41 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
I agree that I doubt it was BML or even honey specifically. While I feed a diet that does not contain honey, I do so because I had so many gliders refuse to eat anything with honey in it. At the time I came up with Reep's diet, most of my gliders refused honey. I haven't tried honey based diet in over 5 years now.

My concerns (with honey based diets) lean more towards diabetes related problems. That would effect the kidneys and pancreas, not the liver. But I've not seen any evidence of that happening either.

The liver is the filter for the body. It filters all the bad junk. Liver failure could be anything from diet to environmental issues, even the air quality.

Sorry, I'm not buying it either...To many gliders live long healthy lives on BML.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: Srlb] #905341
02/10/10 08:46 PM
02/10/10 08:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,048
Londonderry, NH
sweetReaper Offline OP
Glider Guardian
sweetReaper  Offline OP
Glider Guardian

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,048
Londonderry, NH
They have her glider and are still looking into it, but so far the opinion of the people checking her glider has not changed. They cannot find any other signs of health issues that could have caused the liver to function poorly. They claim that gliders have livers that cannot purify simple sugars passing through correctly. I am only the messenger. I am just as concerned and wanting to know the truth as anybody else. I am not saying that this information is correct as I have no way of knowing, I am only passing along what I have been told.


Sarah is currently a slave to:

Joe <3 - boyfriend
Kasu, Chihiro, Haku, Io - the suggies :bb: :grey: :grey: :rtmo:
Miki :rbridge: You are greatly missed <3
Fuuko, Rin, Hinata - the ratties
Two super cute axolotls

"It can't rain all the time" - Eric Draven
Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: sweetReaper] #905356
02/10/10 09:11 PM
02/10/10 09:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,294
NY
WintersSong Offline
Glider Slave
WintersSong  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,294
NY
I'm not really buying that BML was the cause of death... At least, not that the honey caused problems. Most every diet has honey in it. HPW has honey. BML. Blended diet. Judie's BML (of course). The newer Lucky Glider Rescue Soup has honey. BLG's Mix and Match has honey. PML... and probably others.. Those are A LOT of diets that use honey. And a lot that have been used for years (though yes, some are new..but the honey in the diet is not). If the honey was the cause, I think there would be talk of many more deaths on this, as these diets are quite commonly fed (specifically HPW and BML). All that I know is that BML (and a few of the others) are ones that my vet highly recommends, and that she has never seen any problems coming from either, so long as the diet is being fed correctly. (one issue with seeing if diet is really the cause of death -- is the diet being fed as instructions or are little modifications being made? What about treats? ... it seems nearly impossible to know).

I have heard from a few people that they speculate that the Wheat Germ in BML could cause problems, due to being so high in iron..BUT, that's all that I've heard. No proof shown, though I've asked for some repeatedly. Just speculation. I did speak to my vet about this though, and her simple response was much the same as Peggy's response about the honey. We simply do not have information, or research, to know for sure.

Last edited by WintersSong; 02/10/10 09:13 PM.

~*Sara*~

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom." ~Anais Nin
Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: WintersSong] #905391
02/10/10 10:20 PM
02/10/10 10:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,799
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,799
St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
They claim that gliders have livers that cannot purify simple sugars passing through correctly.


Do they know what wild gliders eat??

If they research it, they will see the sap, manna, nectar, all contain simple sugars...


Once again, unless they are sending the tissues and organs and brain off for thorough testing, there is no way to know for sure what is going on that caused the liver to shut down.

It is often too easy for a vet to say it was the liver that failed because it is a visual thing. Us, the owners, not knowing to question it and the *hows* to question it, just accept the vets answer. this is where we need to change things. It is the only way to *dig deeper*. This is why necropsies and histopaths are so very very important.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: Srlb] #905406
02/10/10 10:51 PM
02/10/10 10:51 PM

L
lovely1inred
Unregistered
lovely1inred
Unregistered
L



Honestly I would seek another vet's opinion at this point. If liver failure is the cause of death, then the liver has to be tested to find out *why* it failed. I understand you are just the messenger, and please send condolences to your friend who has lost her baby. It hurts no matter how it happens.

Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: Srlb] #905407
02/10/10 10:54 PM
02/10/10 10:54 PM

S
sheila82
Unregistered
sheila82
Unregistered
S



Bourbon has fed her diet for many years without ill effect. I myself feed BML and have never had problems or vet contraversy. I doubt it is diet.

Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: ] #907291
02/15/10 03:09 AM
02/15/10 03:09 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 178
Middletown, Ohio
Glider_Dad Offline
Glider Explorer
Glider_Dad  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 178
Middletown, Ohio
We also feed the BML diet and the only thing I could think of in the way of honey being a factor is if she had fed raw or unfiltered honey or honey comb. Did she?


Ed
Husband to Patricia (mylittleshadow)
Father to:
Cats, Coco, Gizmo, Dauntless, & Spider
Dog, Brindle
3 Suggies : Rufis oop 12/07, : Calliope oop 07/08, Gabby oop 03/10,
:rbridge: Saphira oop 03/10 - 1/28/18, Garfield the cat, Callie the Queen Cat Pegasus 11/06 to 06/14, Kite 11/06 to 12/16
Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: Glider_Dad] #907299
02/15/10 04:01 AM
02/15/10 04:01 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,061
Mesa, AZ
konotashi Offline
Glider Addict
konotashi  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,061
Mesa, AZ
I haven't read through all of the posts here (I'm tired right now), but personally, no. I don't think it could have been the honey. There are a TON of sugar gliders that are successfully fed BML/HPW, both which use a significant amount of honey, and from what I know, there are no cases of liver failure/death because of it.

Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: konotashi] #907331
02/15/10 08:55 AM
02/15/10 08:55 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,799
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Srlb  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,799
St. Johns, Florida
Quote:
only thing I could think of in the way of honey being a factor is if she had fed raw or unfiltered honey or honey comb.


I feed Raw honey, although it is filtered, it is still raw. There is nothing wrong with feeding raw honey, it actually has more good stuff in it than the pasteurized honey.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: Srlb] #907337
02/15/10 09:25 AM
02/15/10 09:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
H
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict
hwh4ev  Offline
Glider Addict
H

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
i agree scrib, raw, organic honey has all the vit./min. and
enzymes? (spelling) in it. regular processed honey is
nothing but a sweetner-all the vitamins, etc. are processed
out.

regards,
nancy in detroit


regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: hwh4ev] #907342
02/15/10 09:58 AM
02/15/10 09:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 515
Tennessee
F
fliptout Offline
Glider Lover
fliptout  Offline
Glider Lover
F

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 515
Tennessee
a friend of mine feeds BML and her glider died last summer at 17 years old. Doesn't seem like honey is bad if her's lived that long.

Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: fliptout] #907427
02/15/10 02:12 PM
02/15/10 02:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 457
Colorado, USA
Paani Offline
Glider Lover
Paani  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 457
Colorado, USA
I've been following this thread with obvious interest. I don't understand the vet's claim that glider livers can't process simple carbs like honey given the nectars and manna and sap they live on in the wild. Does he think there's a difference between the fructose they get in the wild and the concentrations in honey? Is it a quantity issue?

Afraid I've got a physics rather than physiology background so am not getting it. On the other hand, we have to be careful of anecdotal evidence -- a handful of specific examples doesn't constitute proof one way or the other.

I would love it if sweetReaper could get more info from her friend on what the vet thinks is going on.


Nala, Ronald & Reuel (formerly Eladio & Petal) :plat:
Judah :rbridge: Anson :rbridge: Lele :rbridge: Laki :rbridge:
Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: Paani] #907442
02/15/10 02:53 PM
02/15/10 02:53 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
oakley Offline
Glider Slave
oakley  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,305
Florida, USA
I have fed BML as long as I have had gliders. I have never had a problem with the honey. Some gliders do not like the taste of honey, but this is personal preference, not cause for liver failure.

The two most popular diets according to the diet Poll are HPW and BML. Honey is an ingredient in both and glider owners have been feeding these two diets successfully for years.

I'd like to see some further testing done on this glider, it does seem odd that a perfectly healthy 6 year old being fed a good diet would have liver failure.


Meghan

~__/>
{{ }}


Suggies: Basil, Mausi, Bagheera/Baloo, & the Trio
Dogs : Pretzel/Snickers
Horse: Nugget
RIP: Gato, Pepito, Pepper, and Mowgli gangel


Oakley's Glider Site
Re: BML and liver failure? [Re: oakley] #907466
02/15/10 04:01 PM
02/15/10 04:01 PM

7
7glider7
Unregistered
7glider7
Unregistered
7



The Australians have been putting honey in their Leadbeater's mix for years without having issues. Gliders eat simple carbs like nectar and sap all the time in nature. Honey is not the problem.

There are some who feel that BML actually has too many vitamins and/or minerals in it. When BML first came on the scene, it was a huge improvement because many gliders were having major health issues from lack of vitamins. However, one of the few controlled studies done on sugar glider diets expressed concern that BML might actually have too many vitamins or minerals in it. The liver and kidneys are the main organs responsible for processing many vitamins and minerals. Make of that what you will.

While I think the BML diet can be improved upon, and I now feed my gliders something else, I certainly don't think it's deadly or responsible for massive liver failure or we'd have gliders dropping dead right and left. And I certainly don't think honey is the issue.

Just my two cents.


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