Hiss/ Crabbing?

So for about the last 5 days, I've been hearing this Hissing followed by a hiss/crab/gurglish squeak noise. It happens when they are in the pouch awake, out of the pouch at the wheel, and now in front of me supervising out of cage play.

Fiona hisses, Dot does the hiss/crab-gurgle. Fiona keeps her distance, Dot goes after her. When they ball up, I see it is a dominance thing. I'm also guessing one or both are in heat. Last night, I separated them, checked them both for any injury, all is fine other than Dot crabs the whole time she is being held, whether in the pouch or hand held. No biting, just crabs. She just seems to be in an all over bad mood. She doesn't usually crab at first, but just when she has had enough. Last night was continual while holding her. I would calm her, and one move, and crabbing again.

Fiona acted normal while I checked her out. Not tolerating being held down, but allowing it to happen. If this makes sense.. Both look fine, no scratches, missing fur, no swelling.

The girls will be 3years old next month. They were introduced when they were about 14 wks Oop.

I have heard this noise before. Once or twice a night for a couple of days at a time. While they were in the pouch, but never witnessed this. It has never lasted this long either. This can go on 6 or more times at night right now.

It does sound like an in heat/dominance kind of noise. Which will hopefully end soon.

They must be cycling close to one another for it to go on this long.

Thank you Feather.

The girls have never really played together, but when it's nap time, Dot wants Fiona to snuggle with. They usually do their own thing while awake and out of the pouch. They haven't even shared their wheel together except when they were joeys. So the wheel seems to go non stop all night.

They share their food dishes just fine as long as Dot gets first pickings over the salad. Fiona eats CL nectar first. This is their arrangement.

I hope their cycles end soon... We try to stay out of their personal issues and let them work it out. It's just been a bit unnerving the last few days...

We are still having issues. I think this might be a form of food aggression. They make the same noises in and out of pouch, but I have observed Dot chasing Fiona from fruit veggie dish all the way back to sleeping pouch. So tonight, I separated them by feeding Dot inside the cage and Fiona outside the cage as I don't have an extra cage for her. After a few hours, I combined the leftovers in the cage and am observing them for any more aggression. So far the waters are calm.

The girls are still squabbling while awake (but not as much) and when they first settle down for a nap... Ugh!

So I did a little digging and found an older thread that covers my issue.

And in the thread (2009), it was suggested to separate them for a day or two... I wish I copied it, I may never find it again. There was no conclusion, so I think I'm going to give it a try.

I do have their popup kennel. I'm just not sure who should go in it.

Dot is being aggressive, and looks for Fiona when it's bedtime. Fiona could care less about whether she sleeps with Dot.

In my mind, logic says put Dot in kennel. I have plenty of toys, a treadmill pouches and so on.

I assume I will have to do a typical quick intro, that will require clean bedding,cage, etc. Right?

Any advise/ opinions would be greatly appreciated. I'm at a loss...

Hi Dawn
I will give you my to cents here.
I have been looking for an anwser myself so if you ever find a solution that just instantly fixes things, then please contact me

My girls seems to be somewhat the same as yours, although when they sleep it's like quiet bundle of five babies with an ocational little hiss by someone ("get your butt out of my face"- sort of thing).

They are usually fine, but my youngest glider, Mona, is quite dominant and need to have the first rigth to the the food bowls or else she will chase the others away with a bit of hissing involved, but nothing too bad. It sounds like your gliders are a little worse and more fierce than my five, but just know that you are not alone!

I find that if I pour a little bit of oats (my gliders prefered treat) or some pieces of fruit in their sleeping pouch just before they wake up, they act a little more civil in regards to the slight food aggresion that I see in my colony. That way they are not feeling too hungry when they decide to wake up also keep two or three food stations throughout the cage in a way that they can't be seen from the other bowls.

Another thing is preparing the food earlier, I have found that that helped a little. And also plenty of out if cage time. I have a glider proofed room where I will leave my gliders for a few hours and that also seem to be helpful as they have then been stimulated by a "new" environment. Give them something else in the cage to focus on, stimulating toys, mind exercises etc.

If it gets very bad or one of them seems frigthened by the other, then it might be a good idea just to seperate them for a couple of days during the night and try and see if they can sleep together during the day.

Maybe this won't help you as it seems that our situation is not quite the same, but I hope it was just slightly helpful or at least helped you to not feel alone (welcome to write a pm any time)

So, last night hubby just couldn't stand the idea of separating the girls, so he split up their dishes, made an eating station for Fiona on the couch in the livingroom, and while I napped, She ate all the peas, corn, bokchoy,and 1 blueberry. About 1 TBS total in 3 hours. Plus all the nectar she could hold. Dot cleaned her plate. After I woke up, Fiona was excited to see me, came gave me neck hugs and kisses, looking for her Hoodie.

Feeding Fiona on top of the cage drives Dot nuts. She can hear her smacking her lips, but can't see what she's eating.

Last night the squabbling was at an all time low.

We have separate dishes, hidden and Dot has chased Fiona back into pouch. I think this must have been going on for awhile. It has just recently ramped up to fits between them.

I like the idea of oats or maybe their kibble, but I'm afraid Fiona would just fill up on that.

Very good suggestions to try already given, but I had ran into a similar issue with my Ollie boy after he had been joined with the girls for several months. There has been a myriad of changes in lifestyle for all of us in a short time after homing Ollie and up till now, lol, that it's hard to document any cause of discontentment. Ollie, himself had already come from multiple changes in his short approx 4 yrs prior to coming under my care. It's important to me to keep my trio together for that reason alone, so I'm in great understanding of how you feel right now.

Gliders, I've learned are fairly resilient, if healthy, but they're still a bit complex for our ability to understand all their behaviors. Even so, we can pick up on it when they are being disagreeable, whether to us or each other.

I personally feel that trying any combination of a few things suggested as for:
1. Keeping two to three feeding stations of f/v at least and a separate nectar station. I personally keep two f/v stations and separate feeding. (Current layout of feeding in my gliders cage can be seen in treadmill post, as each glider was at a different feeding station as I took their pics.)
2. If possible-place food a bit earlier, before they wake up. (in my situation, i can not do this).
3. Providing a snack, I keep Happy Glider pellets in forage toys typically for them to snack on when/if they wake up (& Ollie most definitely will.) He is the first to arise and will go straight to a f/v bowl, doesn't matter which one, but he typically still doesn't like to share most times. He will fuss and chase the girls away, although, he seems to have calmed down on that quite a bit (since new cage) so far. If you want to sprinkle a few kibbles in their pouch, I hadn't thought of that, but it could be helpful. I don't think a few pellets a piece in their pouch will alter what they eat over the course of the night.
4. Continuing to keep a close eye and ear out for them, most likely no one is getting hurt. Let them be unless that changes, I know it's hard, believe me, it breaks my heart whenever I hear/see this behavior between my gliders.

Please keep us updated on how it goes, what's working and what's not. This is a good lesson for all glider keepers.

I'm still on this, wanted to let a few days pass and see how it went. Now I wish I followed Peggy's advice from awhile ago... Keep a food journal...

When the hissing/crabbing was at it's peak almost 2 weeks ago, the girls were starting to get up about 3pm. We are still sleeping(working nights). Their normal time to get up was 6:30 to 7 pm. Before this started, I would have dinner in cage before they were up. Kibble in cage all day.

I did separate the girls for 4 days while they had their first meal. I discovered something new. Fiona will only eat about 1 teaspoon of f/v. She goes after the CL nectar. Dot on the other hand, eats all the peas, corn, a few green beans, blueberries before she leaves the f/v dish. That would be 3Tbs she has foraged through. I only put aside 1 Tbs for Fiona. Once they are done, I put Fiona's portion back in cage. About an hour later, Dot goes through Fiona's dish and finishes off the rest of the good stuff. In the meantime, Fiona goes to Dots dish and only sniffs around. Then off to the nectar dish for more. At 5am, they are both at the same f/v bowl, eating in peace. They always leave carrots a green bean or two, and leaves from kale and bokchoy. The hissing crabbing was down significantly.

That's was 3 days ago... To be continued (Gotta feed Hubby) better news coming...

okay, I'll wait patiently. Glad to hear good news is coming, is it too soon for the moves? I've got to work off this popcorn I've been eating, lol.

OK so 3 days ago, both girls are up at 3pm, nicely sharing their kibble snack. They go back to bed.

I wake up about 5pm, start coffee, set their dinner out to thaw. At 6:30 sharp, Dot is sitting on her perch where her dish of f/v go, patiently waiting. I set Dots bowl in first.

Fiona is in sleeping pouch looking out waiting for me to take her out. I decided to change it up again and feed Fiona separately in cage. Her own dish of 1 Tbs f/v near the CL nectar.

For 2 days I have sat and watched them eat. They each of to their respective dishes and eat. I only give Fiona 1 Tbs because she eats slow. And I fear Dot will run out of goodies before she checks out Fiona's dish. Last night and tonight I left them alone. No noises, all seems well.

In conclusion, it's better. The hiss/crab is a lot less. 2 f/v dishes, both out and at their dishes at the same time.

They turned 3 years this month. Maybe they are communicating different now. But I'm still watching.

It could be they were bickering because one or both were in heat.

If it started like that, I agree. But it went on for 2 weeks +. I hope I at least get some peace now...

I'm glad to hear it worked out! Thanks for the update!

Ollie was on good behavior after moving to new cage the first few weeks, but this past week I've heard him hiss, crab, & chase the girls away, not sure which girl, but so far this isn't ongoing throughout the whole time they're out together eating or even every night. I'm hoping it's not going to pick up again, as he was really fussy.

I've come to the conclusion in my glider's case that at least one of the girls had taken food from him in the beginning of them living together, and he finally had enough. I've seen both Lulu & Skadoosh, mostly the latter take food from each other, and Ollie in the past. They still take it from each other, but don't fight over it, Ollie won't give them the chance, especially when there are green beans involved.

I do wish the girls would eat from one bowl and Ollie from another in a different locations, but they all seem to be willy-nilly about which bowl they dine from.

For such a little criitter, they have a great memory!

We still have to remind Dot she won't be abused anymore. She gets in to a ferocious rage (directed at me) once in a great while. Like she has PTSD (? Post traumatic stress disorder) occurrences. Then she goes through remorse over it that will last for a day, then she is her sweet self again. (Her ears flatten during this time, like it sapped all her strength).

This occurred just last week. The last one was about 1 year ago. It seems to come out of no where...

Back to topic... tonight was a good night. Dot kept her back to Fiona while she ate from her bowl.

A solution has been found!

Well, Dot's in great hands now, and I believe she knows it, but it doesn't surprise me that they can suffer from PTSD. It's easier to understand when you know they've had a rough start or experience in life. Also, a bit easier to work at bonding with them, when you understand they're just acting out of sheer fear.

Thank you Terry! Your moral supportable your experiences have been very helpful!

What the heck!? !? What does supportable mean? . I thought I proof read better than that. Lol!!! I've been plucking on my phone here since February. I should just shut spellchecker off!

Thank you for your support too Terry!

Later last night and tonight, not a peep out of either of them. Yay!!!!

I think Dot just needed a reset...

Dawn, you probably think I haven't paid one bit of attention to your thread or this situation you have been going through

Well, not so. I have been reading every word. Just didn't have anything at all that would help you plus was amazed at all you were doing to figure this out.

Huge cuddos to you for finding a solution I'm not so sure I would have had the patience.

So glad your girls are happy .... and quiet

That's alright Dawn, I try to be supportable whenever I can. (At least supportable is a word, so maybe that's why you didn't pick up on it.)
Adjective: supportable
|su'por-tu-bul| capable of being supported; endurable; maintainable.

And, btw, you're most welcome, although it looks like you figured the solution all yourself.

YAAAAAAY

Thank you Karen, my patience wore pretty thin... If it weren't for the fact that we are in close quarters with them, I would have ignored their issue. Fiona is a late riser, and I have had to get her out of bed several times so they can eat at the same time.

The tides are changing with Dot again and she wants equal shared time with me. Or she prefers to stay where ever Fiona goes... But Dot is wanting more attention from me too. She tolerates being held better than ever.

And thank you Hutch for your supported too!

Update

Dot and Fiona turned 3 years old last month. As joeys, I feel they tolerated each other for company sake in these years together.

Observation:

Up until now,their hiss/crabbing noises have always been brief until about 2 months ago. The first thing I did was provide separate dishes at dinnertime. It helped for a few days, then the hiss/crabbing came back. (A change). Dot was having what seemed anxiety during awake/play time. I could never catch them making these noises. I always showed up, and they would stop, or it was too dark in the room to see.

It's been a month now since I posted this. They still have bouts of hiss/crabbing, but the crabbing is softer with squeaks in it.

I have been able to sit still and watch them in out of cage play recently. What I observed was facinating...

They were actually playing together. The dynamic of their relationship has changed. At first, I was shocked and scared. But as I watched from the shadows, they were playing a type of cat and mouse game. One would chase, the other would hide, then peek out. Then the one hiding would chase the other till she hid. The hiss/crabbing was done during the chase. Tails were up and flicking the whole time. It wasn't a territory thing. They were trading places.

Anyone else observe this? How do your gliders play together?

How cute is that

Mine do stuff like this fairly often. I thought all gliders play like this, honestly. There's the chase, they also like to leap frog (in the wheel & out), & pass objects or bits of food around.

We started this play with the girls from the beginning. They never did this with each other till recently. They would forage, hunt, and do everything as individuals. So when they started playing, it was a bit un- nerving .

Something seemed to always be missing... This is why I have wanted a third glider. I didn't know how to teach them to play.

We even had bug on sticks. Only 1 would engage play at a time.

That's adorable!

I've seen my trio play together on occasions, but not exactly that way, not to say they don't, but I haven't seen it. What I have seen is them following each other around during play. One will venture off and one or the other of the gliders will watch them, then run off and follow them or go to where they are. On very rare occasions, I've seen all three do this, with the third glider deciding to join the other two, but not always. A lot of the time, if they're out, one will stay and groom me for a lot longer or decide to venture off in another direction.

I have seen more than one on the wheel, and even recently on their treadmill. Actually, several times I'll either catch two on it, or one on it and another will hop on joining the other.

One behavior I've noticed with my gliders, if I am petting one, or take one out and handle it, the others will come and examine that glider upon return, like their checking on what I may have done to them, lol.

I know, like they're checking for human-cooties or something.

Yep I witnessed this for the first time during my observations... Since Fiona likes alone time in the hoodie, (like she is getting right now), when I put her back in the cage, she gets a thorough exam from Dot. Fiona sits perfectly still for this. Like it's been a routine for awhile...

Ah-yes, human-cooties, guess they want to pic them off and eat them!