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What is wrong with diets that involve pellets?

Posted By: Anonymous

What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/27/07 05:32 PM

I keep seeing people saying that pellets are bad, even in diets that also provide fresh fruits and veggies. I am putting my gliders on the Suncoast diet and am a little bit concerned with all of the controversy about pellets.

I don't have a blender (or room to store one in my itty bitty kitchen), which makes most of the diets off-limits for me. I could also feed Darcy's diet, which doesn't use pellets.

Could someone please clue me in on why pellets are such an issue?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/27/07 05:45 PM

wave Hi, I am not sure what all the fuss is about pettet diets either. dunno I tried the hpw diet and my little one didn't like it, so I put her on the Suncoast diet. She loves it. jump She eats all of it every night which is about 1 1/2 to 2tsp. I make sure that she gets her 2:1 ratio in fruits and veggies. I also give her a little extra protien once a week. She is doing great. In fact she is a little fatty now. blush

This is what my friend feeds hers also and they are doing great too. No health issues or anything. I think you just have to decide what works for you and your suggie. glider
Posted By: Trigger

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/27/07 05:49 PM

If you are using a proven diet off the link here at GC, and Suncoast is one, I would stick to what you are feeding if your babies like it. I feed a BML and all diets get a little bashed and beat up ALL. Every owner has an opinion and usually are partial to the diet they feed unless they start having problems on it.
If your babies like Suncoast I say keep at it, there are others that feed it too.
Another thing you may be getting is hard pellets are bashed alot. I know ZK is soft and as long as you feed them the complete diet not just pellets it should be OK.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/27/07 05:54 PM

Yea, I think a lot of the issues stem with HARD pelleted food. I mean, gliders are sap eaters. In their natural habitat they mash the foods against the roof of their mouths and extract the liquid from it. It's difficult for them to do with a hard pellet. My personal preference is to feed them soft foods and the occasional treat with something crunchy to keep their teeth clean, etc., but to each his own as long as the gliders are healthy I guess.
Posted By: GliderLove

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/27/07 06:04 PM

I agree, all diets will have a basher some where along the lines. I have used Brisky's pellets for 10 years and never had a problem, so from my experience I can not say a hard pellet is bad since I have had zero issues with it.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/27/07 06:31 PM

One of the major problems with pellets is the potential to produce mold... If stored properly, then you can reduce the problem, but never really stop it. Aflatoxin is a major issue with pellets due to the grain used in them.
Posted By: GliderLove

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/27/07 06:36 PM

That I do agree with, I keep mine in the freezer.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/27/07 08:11 PM

Let me ask a question just for my own curiosity and it's NOT intended to argue, etc., but why do people choose a hard pellet for their gliders when other diets (and, I don't feed mine a "popular" diet either) are softer and probably much tastier for them? Is it just because it's easier? Cuz, you know with several cages of gliders, it WOULD be much easier for me to feed something like that, but I would so feel like I was cheating them out of their yummies!
Posted By: GliderLove

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/27/07 08:44 PM

I don't think your question would start an argument..lol It's a reasonable question.

When I got my first glider as far as I researched Brisky's was the first glider staple pellet. My gliders liked it, and they basically only "snack" on it if they get up thru out the day. I thought it was decent nuitionally and went well with the diet I feed. It's also what my mentor had used and had very old gliders 17 being the oldest. So I personally felt that if it wasn't broke why fix it. And that's why I never changed. If I had any issues from it I would look into other staples out there, and honestly I think ZKS would be the one I would go with if I were to switch. smile
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/27/07 09:00 PM

ZKS is the moist pellet, correct? I got some of that with a rescue I took in, but my gliders didn't much care for it and well, it STUNK but my cat sure loved it....LOL
Posted By: GliderLove

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/27/07 09:06 PM

Yeah..it's the softer one. I heard to did smell bad lol I'm sure that cat's would think that's tasty! My cats eat the brisky's that get thrown out during the day. What pellet do you use?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/27/07 09:10 PM

I don't use any pellets now. I feed a modified version of BML.
Posted By: blockamon

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/27/07 09:49 PM

IMO, the only convincing reason to NOT feed mainly pellet food is variety/enjoyment of the gliders. Quality pellet diets (note, not all of the ones out there are good) are far more nutritionally balanced than most people give them credit for. I personally stick to Mazuri and Reliable Protein Products, since they manufacture and market mostly to zoos. Other manufacturers (i.e., Briskey's and Pretty Pets Happy Glider) may also be OK, but I have no experience with them.

True, storage has to be considered. However, to me this isn't much different than making sure the fresh foods aren't spoiled or that the HPW/BML ingredients aren't bad.

I started using the Dr. Johnson-Delany diet (basically 1/2 Leadbeater's Mix and 1/2 Zookeeper's Secret with some treats) but changed because my gliders didn't like the Zookeeper's much.

I still use Mazuri New World Primate as part of their diet. They like the taste, and it helps with oral hygiene.

I'm thinking of trying the Happy Glider (either chicken or breeder) because of the higer protein content, but I'm looking for feedback from current users first.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/28/07 03:42 AM

A few questions:

Tiasmom mentioned a 2:1 ratio. What is that? Like, 2 fruits to 1 vegetable?

I saw the Brisky's diet pellets but was sort of confused by it. Is that -all- that the gliders get, or are they also given fresh food?

What is aflatoxin?

With the ZKS, wouldn't freezing it make it hard and thus defeat the purpose of it being soft? I currently keep it in a big plastic ziploc bag (that's how it was given to me by their previous ownder). Should I be storing it differently?
Posted By: glidergrl1513

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/28/07 03:47 AM

2:1 refers to the calcium to phosphorus ratio that we try to aim for. We roughly want to give our gliders 2 parts calcium to every one part phosphorus.

Aflatoxin - this toxin can come from mold and can kill a glider. As you've seen in this thread, it can be in pelleted food, and many people are wary of feeding crickets because they are often kept on corncob bedding (which is a very likely place for aflatoxins to occur). It can happen with other bugs as well (it binds to their DNA and affects the glider that eats it).

I'm not sure about the specifics of freezing ZKS, but I would at least keep it in the fridge.
Posted By: cinnamonstix

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/28/07 04:58 AM

Ok...referring to the "hard pellets" noted above...I do use Briskys as my staple...but don't gliders chew bark...to get to the sap to suck from the trees in wthe wild? If that is the case...then I really do not see why a "hard pellet" would necessarily be bad...as they do chew on the trees in the wild whick are...hard. Given they are not getting any sap from the pellet, but I do not see how it would harm them to chew a hard pellet so long as that is not ALL they are fed and they are on a balanced diet. Feel free to explain why this is bad. I am very curious.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/28/07 04:21 PM

Cinnamonstix, no one said it was BAD, simply asking why one would choose to feed a hard food over other softer foods. Yes, they rip the bark away to GET TO the sap, but as far as I know, they don't chew on the bark or eat the bark. I could be wrong though. I know to get to the sap they have to strip the bark from the trees.....

As for Mizuri (sp?) primate food....why would I feed primate food to a marsupial? That doesn't make sense to me. When I got my first glider he was being fed ferret food, that didn't make sense to me either since he's not a ferret....
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/28/07 05:05 PM

For Gwen... when sugar gliders remove tree bark they are using their incisors (front teeth) to do this. These teeth are used to gouge holes and strip bark, but not for chewing. The teeth for chewing are found in the back part of their mouth and aren't meant for grinding up plant material (I should clarify this point...they do pulp fruits. They chew the material until it becomes a pulp and then suck the juices from it.) or anything like a hard pellet. Also you should consider the digestive system itself. I have not researched this myself, but I speculate that a digestive system built for processing saps and gums is not going to be able to easily process something like a hard pellet. They may not be able to extract the nutrients in time. Or if the food has not been ground up enough initially, they may not be able to access the nutrients from it.

Again, I agree with what's been said about a hard vs. softer pellet. Softer is going to be better.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/28/07 05:34 PM

Nari, that makes a lot of sense. I didn't thik about them not being able to process the nutrients properly, etc. I think nature is pretty miraculous in designing animals to adapt to their surroundings and to eat the foods they know are right for them, etc., and I think it's way too easy for us humans to decide that we'd like something easier or not as messy or whatever.

I don't like ANY of the diets out there personally, but we do the best we can right? We can't replicate their natural diet efficiently here in the U.S. so they get stuck with whatever we decide to feed them.

I wish they'd all just been left alone in their natural habitat and we never had to have these conversations, but it's too late for that now.....
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/28/07 05:58 PM

I am awaiting the arrival of my ZKS. It says on the website that it doesn't have to be put in the fridge. Does everyone recommend that it does? Now I am worried about mold. I am currently keeping their food in the cabniet in a dark, cool place. Any advice?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/28/07 06:17 PM

You should try to pm lauraleigh....she's dealt with the mold issues a lot and done a ton of research on it after losing several of her gliders to it. She's been able to get the "jorn act" passed, and gotten manufacturers of packaged food items to change their labels regarding storage, etc. Even yoggies can get mold and cause issues. ANY kind of mold in the mealies, crickets, packaged foods, etc. can cause problems.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/28/07 06:45 PM

I think we as humans take it for granted that we can eat just about anything. We have really generalized digestive systems which is convenient for us. But there are a lot of other animals out there that are not like us at all in this respect. Ferrets for example have extremely short digestive tracts. When they were first domesticated, a lot of them died because they were being fed things like bread and milk. Even though the ferrets could eat it and seemed to like it, they weren't able to get any nutrients from it before it passed out of their system. It wasn't until later on that people learned this. That's why if you own a ferret, it's imperitive that you feed it a food intended for ferrets. Unfortunately, we don't have a perfect diet for gliders. But I think we're all doing our best to try and provide what we can for them. But we should keep in mind their physiology and what they would eat naturally.
Posted By: blockamon

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/29/07 02:08 AM

Keep in mind please that the idea about gliders not being able to digest hard pellets is just speculation...not fact.

The fact that some owners have fed primarily pellets for years (i.e., Briskey's) tends to refute that idea.

As for using primate food for sugar gliders, I don't use it exclusively by any means, only a little bit. The ingredients really aren't that different than other glider foods. I'd prefer to use the Mazuri Insectivore Diet if they only made the pellets a little bigger.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/29/07 04:49 AM

I did say that I speculate that a pellet may not be easily digested. I haven't seen any research on it either way. It seems gliders have been surviving on a variety of diets in captivity.

These thoughts are just what make sense to me in regards to "what's wrong with diets that involve pellets".
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/29/07 04:57 AM

Originally Posted By: suggiemom
Let me ask a question just for my own curiosity and it's NOT intended to argue, etc., but why do people choose a hard pellet for their gliders when other diets (and, I don't feed mine a "popular" diet either) are softer and probably much tastier for them? Is it just because it's easier? Cuz, you know with several cages of gliders, it WOULD be much easier for me to feed something like that, but I would so feel like I was cheating them out of their yummies!


I am switching to pellets because my vet feels my gliders need more protein, and some of the pellets out there are an excellent source.

While everyone has a great point about gliders being sap-suckers, remember that they also eat a lot of insects for certain parts of the year, many of which certainly have chitinous exoskeletons. While some gliders spit those out, mine eat the WHOLE THING...and I have never seen any digestion problems. If they can pass chitin, I don't think that pellets would necessarily cause a problem. Of course, passing and digesting are two separate things. But I trust my vet...as long as my gliders will eat it!!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/29/07 06:10 AM

Wait... so crickets, mealworms, and pretty much everything can contain the toxins, what do you feed for the fresh insects? I buy the crickets and mealworms in the can that has a green lid. Would freeze-dried bugs be safer?

Also, I have heard that oats are also recommended as the staple for the Suncoast diet. Do oats usually contain aflatoxin? If I were to give them oats, it would be the kind made for human consumption.
Posted By: cinnamonstix

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/29/07 06:18 AM

Crickets are at a high risk of containing aflotoxin. Mealworms are not as high. Anything can contain it really...even staple pellets. It is important that use use only fresh products and if suspect any mold...throw it ASAP. If you are farming mealies and get mold...the whold farm is to be thrown. As long as you use fresh products and store it correctly...you should be ok.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/29/07 06:32 AM

Frozen or canned bugs are not any safer.

Really just about anything that can become moldy could be contaminated with aflatoxins...veggies, bugs, you name it.

Personally, I have never understood why crickets would be higher aflatoxin risk than mealies. If their bedding is moldy, it's moldy...it seems like either bug could be contaminated.

As long as you get the bugs from a reliable source and keep the bedding clean you should be fine.
Posted By: tammyangel

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/29/07 07:31 AM

I use pellets with my gliders and have never had a single problem When I got the pellets I was told to put them in the freezer to keep them fresh and I have never had a single sick glider in the time Ive had mine my gliders are also on bml diet .But the pellets are there for them like some my gliders get up through out the day for a snack and a drink of water but do not eat pellets alone.
Posted By: glidergrl1513

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/29/07 11:23 AM

Jen, it's usually because of the type of bedding they are kept on. A lot of pet supply stores keep their crickets on corn cob bedding (whereas mealies are kept on plain newspaper, wood shavings, or oatmeal) and the corn is more likely to mold quickly.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/29/07 12:08 PM

ok i know i am new here, but i am going to put my 2 cents in.
i have kept gliders for 10 years.
morgan the male i currently have was one of my babies 6 years ago, the owner who had him was terminally ill, she wanted a glider so i let her adopt him, no charge, when her health worsened she brought him back.
he had only been fed briskeys, and bml and fresh fruits and veggies and crickets.
when i got him back, i noticed he wasnt touching the briskeys,
arie the female i had at the times was being fed zks, i tried switching morgan, he wouldnt touch it.
when i lost arie, i had found a guy who had a female who had been a single glider for 5 years and strickly fed briskeys, nothing else....i switched her to bml and fresh foods.
after coming here and getting used to morgan and they started living in the same cage, i put a bowl of zks in the cage along with bml, some fruits and nectar.
the next morning i found the zks bowl and all in the floor of the cage, i cleaned the cage and and put in another bowl, they turned the bowl over again.
with fresh foods if i have a fruit or veggie they wont eat i puree it and mix it in the bml or add it to the nectar.
for during the day i buy the dried fruits for birds and leave it and they will chew on that, also i have added that to the nectar for a treat, usually i find more fruit on the bottom of the cage, but they eat well as far as bml and fresh fruits and veggies, and even crickets.
when i put pellets in they knock the bowl over,
but they will eat a monkey biscuit soaked in the nectar.
i used to keep lories so i modified the nectar for my gliders.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/29/07 01:33 PM

wave I also have a problem with my gliders eating the pellets they seem not like it. I'm kind of new to all this I have only had my Jojo and Baby for about two months now, But can you have me to understand what is zks and what kind of nectar do you give your gliders. I feed my bml and fresh fruits and veggies. I gave them mealies at least twice a week and crickets one maybe twice a week do you think I'm feeding my babies wrong..thank you for your help jump
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/29/07 04:25 PM

when i speak of nectar i guess i should have clarified that.

when i had my juicer i made up batches of juice and added a bit of honey(instead of sugar) and baby cereal.

sometimes i add some yogurt.

now usually what i do is buy the baby juice, like apple, mixed fruit, apricot even the ones with yogurt work.

from time to time i add some acacia powder to thicken it up...

another thing i do is mix honey water and acacia powder til is is thick like the honey and put is on fruits and veggies, like apples, pears, carrots, green beans and put them on a kabob and hang in the cage for the gliders to eat...
now i have took and done that and sprinkled the berries and bugs, but my gliders actually were fighting over the whole kabob so i hang 2 for that.

some people disagree with my diet because alot of it is pureed food, often times with chunks, and i do use monkey biscuits... when i do feed fresh fruits and veggies i feed them shredded.
some times i have even been know to put a whole mango or apple in the cage and let them gouge the skin.

i have kept various types of animals, including loris and iguanas, i took some ideas from both and modified them to fit my gliders.

the lori nectar recipe was 1/2 cup of sugar
1/2 cup soyagen powder and 1/2 cup high protien powder with 2 cups water. i modified the nectar for the lori to tropical fruits pine apple, mango, papaya, and pears i juiced them, then took the pulp added it to the juice and added the soyagen and high protien powder but only 1/4 cup and 1/4 cup of honey, after changing my lories diets around i noticed a change in their color it was brighter.

what i do with diets i feed, even down to my guinea pigs, if i cant eat it they dont get it, my gliders diets i have tasted them all, some tasted bad, some tasted good.

but all in all, if your gliders are going crazy for the food you provide for them and you know its a "healthy" diet and they eat it thats what is important they are getting a healthy diet that they like.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/29/07 06:59 PM

ok, I’m going to attempt to go through this entire thread and answer what I can. If I missed something that you had a question on that has not already been answered, please either post it again or PM me and I would be happy to help you out if I can.

Originally Posted By: suggiemom
Yea, I think a lot of the issues stem with HARD pelleted food. In their natural habitat they mash the foods against the roof of their mouths and extract the liquid from it. It's difficult for them to do with a hard pellet.


The real doubts started several years ago when another owner had a problem with aflatoxin in the pellets just like what I had. Now there is a “hard” pellet out there that is meant to be fed soft. Happy Glider should be softened with apple juice before being fed. It should also be fed with appropriate fruits and veggies. I don’t think there are any pellets out there that can be fed as an “All In One” diet, but more as a staple to a diet.

Originally Posted By: blockamon
Quality pellet diets (note, not all of the ones out there are good) are far more nutritionally balanced than most people give them credit for. I personally stick to Mazuri and Reliable Protein Products, since they manufacture and market mostly to zoos. Other manufacturers (i.e., Briskey's and Pretty Pets Happy Glider) may also be OK, but I have no experience with them.


I have sat down and looked at the nutritional value of the glider pellets out there. Some of them are ok, some not so ok, and others… well, I wouldn’t feed them to the mice in my basement. As for your reasons for sticking to those manufacturers, I would find a different reason. Those feeds are for NUMEROUS different species of animals. The Zookeepers diet is for all insectivore animals, not just our gliders. Gliders have very different nutritional needs than monkeys and anteaters. It is just a general staple, which is why there are diets out there such as suncoast that make up the nutritional difference that the ZKS is lacking.

Originally Posted By: blockamon
True, storage has to be considered. However, to me this isn't much different than making sure the fresh foods aren't spoiled or that the HPW/BML ingredients aren't bad.


This is a lot different… Tell me something. How do you store Wheat Germ? Now… Tell me how long pellets are good on your shelf. The average glider owner cannot tell you how or for how long pellets should be stored. Most of the pellets out there do not have specific enough storage instructions, and you take the chance on poisoning your gliders by lack of knowledge.

Originally Posted By: blockamon
I still use Mazuri New World Primate as part of their diet. They like the taste, and it helps with oral hygiene.


ok, I’m not trying to pick on anyone at all, but would you feed dog food to a baby? Then why would you feed primate food to a marsupial? I never did understand the theory behind that

Originally Posted By: svenna
I saw the Brisky's diet pellets but was sort of confused by it. Is that -all- that the gliders get, or are they also given fresh food?


I believe that it should be fed with fruits and vegatables.

Originally Posted By: svenna
With the ZKS, wouldn't freezing it make it hard and thus defeat the purpose of it being soft? I currently keep it in a big plastic ziploc bag (that's how it was given to me by their previous ownder). Should I be storing it differently?


you would want to freeze it in 1 week portions. Take out only what you will use in that time, and refrigerate that portion. This will allow the food to defrost in the fridge and you will be serving the soft food vs frozen.

Originally Posted By: svenna
Wait... so crickets, mealworms, and pretty much everything can contain the toxins, what do you feed for the fresh insects? I buy the crickets and mealworms in the can that has a green lid. Would freeze-dried bugs be safer?
Originally Posted By: 7glider7
I have never understood why crickets would be higher aflatoxin risk than mealies. If their bedding is moldy, it's moldy...it seems like either bug could be contaminated.


Crickets actually have a higher possibility of carrying aflatoxin due to the ability to attach to the DNA of the crickets without actually killing them. So, once a cricket has aflatoxin, so will all of the generations of crickets that come after it. Another factor that plays into this is that Crickets are usually raised on corn bedding. Corn has a very high possibility to contain the mold that produces aflatoxin. Generally, mealworms are raised on wheat or oat bedding, which has a lower probability of growing the specific mold that producing aflatoxin. It is possible for the mold to grow on any kind of grain, but corn is by far the most common.

Sorry this is soooo long, lol

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/29/07 07:58 PM

Thanks Laura I always appreciate it when you go into detail about that cuz I kinda glaze over when I try to decipher it all.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/29/07 08:22 PM

i agree- thanks SO much Laura that straighted a lot out for me!
Posted By: sugarlope

Re: What is wrong with diets that involve pellets? - 11/30/07 02:05 AM

off_topic For anyone interested in the Cricket/Aflatoxin discussion, I started a new thread for it here .
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