Posted By: josefine

honey - 11/10/08 03:27 AM

ok, i know that i already asked this a few days ago, but what is the final concensus regarding honey.
raw or regular
i read thru everything, & it seemed that there were more pros than cons, but i would want to go w/what is safest.
i don't mean to get everything all riled up, again, but there are certain things that actually have to be spelled out for me, before i can get it, the spiders up in my brain are constantly running out of room to build their cobwebs!!! & another bad point on me, is that @ one time i was a blonde (need i make anymore analagies?)
thanx for all of your input, knowledge, & patience w/me
talk @ ya L8R
Posted By: LSardou

Re: honey - 11/10/08 05:48 AM

hug2 I would say that if Peggy (srlb) suggests Raw than that's what I would use. You could send her a PM just to get a clarification to be on the safe side.
Posted By: Judie

Re: honey - 11/10/08 08:30 AM

I have fed my gliders Honey from the Bee Keeper for years.

The Honey is filtered and then bottled and sold to HyVee and other grocery stores in my area.

Do not purchase Honey with the Honey Cone in it.
Posted By: Xfilefan

Re: honey - 11/10/08 08:32 AM

Keep in mind that with raw honey (unfiltered, unpasteurized) the risk of botulism rises-it is why it's recommended not to give honey at all to infants under 1 year of age, raw or processed, since even processed it still carries a small risk. Although my leadbeaters contains honey, I do wonder if it contributes to some of the liver issues we're seeing in our gliders-but that's kind of beside the point. I wouldn't recommend raw.
Posted By: Laurens_Babies

Re: honey - 11/10/08 09:31 AM

Originally Posted By: LSardou
hug2 I would say that since Peggy (srlb) suggests Raw than that's what I would use. You could send her a PM just to get a clarification to be on the safe side.

I thought it was raw that was NOT supposed to be used. That pure clover honey was what is suggested?? LOL who knows I might have my wires crossed.
Posted By: oakley

Re: honey - 11/10/08 10:10 AM

Lauren... I think I do remember something being said about raw honey not being the best... I just use plain old store-bought clover honey (the one in the bear tounge ) and my gliders seem to like it just fine.

But... there is a local bee farmer in my area who we have bought products from (for our own use)... if RAW honey turns out to be the way to go, what do I have to ask him to be sue the honey is safe and good for suggies?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: honey - 11/10/08 12:44 PM

The most common reason I hear why we do not use raw honey in feeding gliders is because it is thought to be a botulism concern.
Colstridium botulinum spores that cause botulism are everywhere in the environment. They’re in dust, dirt, and air. The spores are even found on unwashed surfaces or unpeeled fruits and veggies. Pasteurizing or filtering does not reliably remove these spores and they can survive many hours of continued boiling.
Normally swallowing these spores is not a problem. The spores remain spores and are passed out of the body by the gut flora.

Some researchers have identified honey as being a possible source of botulism spores. They discourage giving honey to infants under 1 year because in extremely rare cases the gut flora of some infants may not be able to combat these spores and MAY result in infant botulism. Yet others have not detected these spores in honey. Furthermore, infant botulism is an unavoidable disease; most patients probably inhale and swallow the spores.

Now some background on honey itself.
Honey is a supersaturated solution of sugars, mainly fructose, glucose and maltose-like sugars. These sugars make honey hygroscopic (moisture absorbing). Honeys hyperosmotic nature prevents the growth of bacteria and yeast as it draws water out of the organism, killing them by desiccation. (Drying it up)
Honey is naturally resistant to bacteria.
Honey is also low PH, along with the sugar concentration make honey an antimicrobial agent. The high acidity of honey plays an important role in the system which prevents bacterial growth. Honey is only around 18% water after bees cure it and with a PH average of 3.9, honey is very stable and can last forever if stored covered tightly.
If honey is left exposed to air, it will absorb water from the air. The greater concentration of water in the air will allow yeast to multiply and honey will ferment.

Raw Honey- raw honey is rich in minerals, vitamins, antioxidant compounds and beneficial enzymes that allow for proper calcium absorption, effective carbohydrate assimilation, probotics for friendly bacteria in the gastrointestinal tract. Phytonutrients in raw honey include healthy by products such as propolis, a gummy substance full of enzymes created by bees when they add their own proteins with tree sap and other plant resins. It also has enzyme and protein packed pollen.

Commercially processed honey is honey that is heated to high temperatures to sterilize or pasteurize it. This process is unnecessary as there are no microbes in honey. The only way microbes can get into honey is from contamination by human hands after it is extracted from the comb. Even then, these microbes will immediately be destroyed by the honeys osmotic powers. When honey is commercially processed, honey is cooked and filtered by high pressure pumps until it is devoid of most of its mineral, nutrients, enzymes, antioxidants and photonutrients. When heated over 118 degrees, honey has its health benefits greatly reduced or completely eliminated.
Honey is processed commercially because WE prefer the clarity and light color that comes from processing out all what we see as impurities, when actually it is the healthy ingredients.
Remember if there are any botulinum spores in the honey, they will still be there after commercial processing that is why the disclaimer remains on the label of the processed honey. (Do not feed to infants under 1 year)

From what I am finding, raw honey is extremely beneficial in many ways and commercially processed honey only removes the “good” qualities of honey and all that is left is sugar.
The risk of botulism from honey is inconclusive due to the fact it the clostridium botulinum spores are everywhere. The spores are only harmful to persons with a compromised immune system.

Most beekeepers do heat their honey but to a temperature of less than 120 degrees but only to liquefy more for ease of extraction. They also filter it but with filters that don’t remove the beneficial ingredients, only particles of wax or bee parts. Honey processed this way is considered raw and unaltered.

Honey is commercially processed because people prefer honey to be light and clear, more pleasing to the eye.
Posted By: Jennifer_Maaske

Re: honey - 11/10/08 01:33 PM

Just so you know.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: honey - 11/10/08 01:54 PM

I use the raw honey, but not the comb honey. Had a great lengthy discussion regarding this with my vet as well as my personal physician and both tell me the risks are the same with the processed and raw, they both can potentially contain the botulism spores, but they are everywhere.

The benefits of raw versus processed is tremendous, as well as processed has 10% sugar added back into the honey after processing.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: honey - 11/10/08 01:59 PM

Originally Posted By: Jennifer_Maaske
Just so you know.


Peggy has said that she gets her honey from a bee keeper, beekeepers don't process honey, only strain and filter for bee parts.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: honey - 11/10/08 02:03 PM

I have never said to use RAW honey. I have although stated time and time again that I DO use honey from a bee farm. Well, when I have enough jugs of it that is...

Honey from a bee farm IS warmed up by the bee contains NO honeycomb, which would than make it considered to be raw...

Honey from bee farms is safe to use, and I say this since I have been using the honey from the bee farm by Judies for the past few years with absolutely no issues...

I did forget to get some this past time however, and since I have been using the honey from Sams club...I have to say, my own PERSONAL thought....I dont like the Sams club honey as much as I do from the bee farm...The gliders eat it both ways...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: honey - 11/10/08 02:06 PM

Oh and one more fact and I really have to get to work. LOL

If you do a reseach on honey, you will find that honey is taken to the processing plants and it is mixed with together. The honey comes from all over the world, not just the states. It comes from places such as Canada and China, mostly China and sold as a product of the USA. It was bottled here, that is how the claim is made.

With the problems coming from China and their food products, I am sticking with my local beekeeper.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: honey - 11/10/08 02:20 PM

Same here Peggy, I prefer the beekeepers honey over the store honey. It tasted good, I thought I hated honey until I tasted it in its natural state.

If anyone is concerned or have questions about honey, RESEARCH, talk to your vet and other health professionals. I would never take anyones words as gospel when it comes to my babies, I trust them but when I firmly believe that one should KNOW the fact for themselves and make an educated decision regarding the health of and well being of their gliders.

Really, getting to work now. smile
Posted By: melek007

Re: honey - 11/10/08 02:42 PM

Interesting thread. Thanks for the information. I like it when subjects are looked at more in depth and explained.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: honey - 11/10/08 02:47 PM

I use the clover honey in the plastic bottle of a bear.
Posted By: IowaMisty

Re: honey - 11/10/08 03:26 PM

That's some really good information Tammy. Thanks for sharing. You've got me thinking about finding a local beekeeper.

Posted By: Laurens_Babies

Re: honey - 11/10/08 03:32 PM

Originally Posted By: Jennifer_Maaske
Just so you know.


roflmao You guys gave me one of those moments!!!! Phew.
Posted By: josefine

Re: honey - 11/10/08 04:31 PM

thank you so much for re-explaining all of this.
i do have a bee keeper here in perry, i will go talk w/them to see what they do & how it is made, etc.
i'm so glad i have all of you to help me w/raising my babies.
talk @ ya L8R
Posted By: tngliderlover

Re: honey - 11/10/08 05:10 PM

Tammy, thanks for the extensive research you did on honey. I ordered honey from your bee-keeper and my gliders are eating the HPW much better now. I took my gliders in for a vet visit a few weeks ago and they're all very healthy.

I personally don't like honey but this Tupelo honey tasted rather good!
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