GliderCENTRAL

Wet introductions, reposted

Posted By: sugarlope

Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 12:05 AM

Ok, let me start off by saying that we think this topic is a discussion worth having, just not the way it happened earlier today. After looking through the thread, it was too difficult to edit, so we are opening up this new thread for anyone that would like to discuss this civilly.

Originally Posted By: GC R4
4. GliderCENTRAL is a family oriented "G" rated board. Be polite, courteous and respectful to other board members at all times.

This means we will not allow personal attacks, name calling (we are not a bunch of children), or for drama to be brought over from other websites, including other forums and/or facebook.

Please also remember Rule #2:

2. Do not post names, phone numbers, addresses, personal email or correspondence without the other parties permission. Due to copyright laws, do not cut and paste articles from another site. Please use a link instead. Comments of glider related businesses and web sites will be allowed by name as long as the discussion is kept on topic and within reason. Personal bashing will not be tolerated.



I want to be VERY clear, here - this will be your only warning. If you cannot post within our rules, your post WILL be removed entirely and you WILL be hearing from us to discuss your decision to post inappropriately.
Posted By: sugarlope

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 12:13 AM

Originally Posted By: WintersSong
...I am posting it here for a few reasons. Mainly because this is a board that attracts a lot of newcomers, and this is really something that people need to realize that it's not okay to do. I understand that introductions are sometimes rough, exhausting, and (at times) downright impossible..but this method is not okay.

...there has been some talk of "wet introductions".. essentially, soaking the glider, the cage, and cage items, and then putting a single dry pouch in to force two gliders to go together. People are actually doing this.

Am I wrong in thinking that this is pretty much cruel, and wrong? I am just awestruck that people are actually doing this to their gliders.

What is your opinion on this method of introductions?


Originally Posted By: jacknsally
Just horrible- the pictures are so sad. I wouldn't even do a dry intro the way she did (just toss them all into a cage). First it was vanilla, then mouthwash, now it's just soak them wet to get them together. Though they may be together now, doesn't mean they are happy and it doesn't mean they will stay together as a colony. That's one thing ALL rescues know or should know.

I agree with the others, it is very selfish to "make" gliders be together. There's a reason why they don't want to be together and whether they are soaked and happy, one day that reason will present again and a serious trauma could/will happen.


Originally Posted By: LabNGlider
Not to mention the HEALTH issues that COULD come of this... we tell everyone DO NOT get your gliders wet but if it MUST be done or they HAPPEN to get wet DRY THEM IMMEDIATELY and COMPLETELY before returning them to the pouch...these folks then do away with ALL that and basically are saying it is FINE to risk their gliders' health by soaking them and not drying them as long as it helps the OWNER get the colony or buddy situation the OWNER wants to have?!?!?
Posted By: sugarlope

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 12:21 AM

Originally Posted By: lovely1inred
Oh I just read the entire description of the introduction method on another site. They're putting MOUTHWASH on the glider's cloaca. Ok, I don't know about you, but I don't like mouthwash in my MOUTH. It BURNS. Why would you put that on what is quite possibly the most sensitive skin and parts on a glider????? Honestly I'm quite surprised that these gliders did anything other than go to tearing at that part of their bodies.


Originally Posted By: StitchsMom
There are a lot of controversial techniques out there. I have to say that I don't agree with this one, but I'm glad I was made aware of it!...

Unfortunately, this IS what some people do. I've always said that just because it works, doesn't mean it's right. In this case, I think these owners are taking some pretty serious risks by wetting down their pet and letting it stay wet for any amount of time. I feel that they are deliberately putting their animals under stress in order to force a result.

We all know that there are risks when it comes to introducing sugar gliders. This is something that the owner should be prepared for. I think that if two gliders require this sort of tactic to be together then they shouldn't be together. Find another way to make it work with your gliders. It's silly to say that their loneliness is more is risk. No, it means that the owner must find another way to fix it and they should have been prepared for it to begin with. Maybe these gliders need different cage mates or living situations to be happy.

I think this is a case of owners putting their wants before the overall well-being of their pet. Just my opinion.


Originally Posted By: buttercup
I put a warning on my web site about this "method" (and I use that term loosely)

I think other owners with web sites should do the same.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 12:34 AM

Someone asked for the reasons this was a bad thing to do to gliders. Here are just SOME of the reasons I can think of off the top of my head.

Gliders are unlike other animals.

They become stressed very easily and when stressed, it compromises their immune system making them susceptible to a host of illnesses.

With a compromised immune system, they are more likely to become seriously ill from any bacteria or parasites that may otherwise remain dormant in their system.

When stressed, they are more likely to over groom or even self mutilate (though that is not as common).

When stressed, they will often display neurological effects such as circling the tops of the cages or doing repetitive back flips or even refusing to eat or over eating.

Soaking a glider can cause their body temperatures to drop rapidly causing them to go into shock which can lead to death.

Soaking them such as this method suggests makes then susceptible to respiratory infection which can lead to pneumonia.

Forcing gliders to live together that would rather not, will lead to stress. (see effects above)

Treating a glider in this manner shows the glider that humans can not be trusted and can harm any trust building (bonding) that may have been done.

Treating a glider in this manner can cause a glider to become fearful of their surroundings.

Fear can cause constant stress to which leads to other issues (see above).

Using mouthwash on their cloacoa would BURN and could lead to self mutilation.

Withholding food? Really? Gliders have a very fast metabolism and withholding food isn't even done before they go through neutering surgery. Why would anyone think withholding food is good?

Keeping on the lights to force the gliders to remain in a pouch to force them to accept each other is just cruel too.

If I was kidnapped by someone along with my worst enemy and we were being held against our will by someone that was torturing us, there is every chance me and that enemy would work together just to survive and hopefully escape. But that still would not make me and that enemy friends!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 12:45 AM

Who would use mouthwash on a glider for any reason? have people actually done that?
Posted By: WintersSong

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 12:47 AM

Shelby, yes. Others have actually done this.
Posted By: JillMarie

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 12:49 AM

Even if everything is done correctly, sometimes an animal just wont do what you want it to. I personally feel that animals are individuals and have a right to that individuality. "forcing" them to alter their individual natural behavior can have adverse consequences later.
I would not recommend this type of "intro" but would recommend other methods. However I dont like the "cover their smell with something else" either. Sometimes it can be a personality thing. My 2 girls have very different personalities,and sometimes get on eachother's nerves.

If 2 gliders do not want to get along, and still will not months later, I would either let them remain alone and give them lots of extra attention, or try to find a cage-mate they DO like. Sugar gliders are individuals and its quite possible personalities can "clash."
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 12:57 AM

I agree Jill! Personalities sometimes just will not go together! I have also noticed and discussed before, the various geographical origins of some gliders, they are just not meant to go together. A lot of the time that gliders are not getting along, one has a round face and the other a pointy one, or one is a good 2 inches longer than the other. I really believe that those lines came off of different islands so of course they don't want to share.
Posted By: DCMuffin

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 01:00 AM

Well said, JillMarie! smile
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 01:05 AM

Wow frown that makes me sad
Posted By: eterrell84

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 01:08 AM

i think this is horribly sad! i cant imagine some spraying me and my house with a firehose, the forcing me to lay in a dry bed with somebody i dont even know. then to force me down and pour mouthwash on my junk? i cant see how any of this is passed as a "method of introduction" on ANY site.
Posted By: gliderma

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 01:12 AM

Gliders have as many different personalities as we do!
To expect them all to get along all the time is unrealistic. To force the issue is cruel & selfish.
I have several pairs that have been together for as much as 4 yrs and as little as a year, but they all have had little squabbles from time to time. That's just part of living together. Some, however, may never get along and that should be accepted. Just my opinion of course, but how I would handle it.
Posted By: glidrz5

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 01:35 AM

This is incredibly sad and I cannot believe that a relationship built upon a foundation of fear would last.
Posted By: Marsupial_Mayhem

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 02:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Dancing
Someone asked for the reasons this was a bad thing to do to gliders. Here are just SOME of the reasons I can think of off the top of my head.

Gliders are unlike other animals.

They become stressed very easily and when stressed, it compromises their immune system making them susceptible to a host of illnesses.

With a compromised immune system, they are more likely to become seriously ill from any bacteria or parasites that may otherwise remain dormant in their system.

When stressed, they are more likely to over groom or even self mutilate (though that is not as common).

When stressed, they will often display neurological effects such as circling the tops of the cages or doing repetitive back flips or even refusing to eat or over eating.

Soaking a glider can cause their body temperatures to drop rapidly causing them to go into shock which can lead to death.

Soaking them such as this method suggests makes then susceptible to respiratory infection which can lead to pneumonia.

Forcing gliders to live together that would rather not, will lead to stress. (see effects above)

Treating a glider in this manner shows the glider that humans can not be trusted and can harm any trust building (bonding) that may have been done.

Treating a glider in this manner can cause a glider to become fearful of their surroundings.

Fear can cause constant stress to which leads to other issues (see above).

Using mouthwash on their cloacoa would BURN and could lead to self mutilation.

Withholding food? Really? Gliders have a very fast metabolism and withholding food isn't even done before they go through neutering surgery. Why would anyone think withholding food is good?

Keeping on the lights to force the gliders to remain in a pouch to force them to accept each other is just cruel too.

If I was kidnapped by someone along with my worst enemy and we were being held against our will by someone that was torturing us, there is every chance me and that enemy would work together just to survive and hopefully escape. But that still would not make me and that enemy friends!
Wonderful Teresa. Couldn't have said it better myself.
Posted By: Marsupial_Mayhem

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 02:53 AM

When I started reading about it, it felt just like I had stepped off a time machine into the days of torture and inhumane treatment of humans. It really made me mad that there are folks out there who think this is a splendid way to spend a Sunday afternoon.

It's barbaric. Plain and simple.
Posted By: suggiemom1980

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 02:55 AM

This just goes against everything I've read and been taught to NOT do. It breaks my heart, that this is being done to gliders who have already been through a rough life, only to go through more and possibly worse, at the hands of those who are supposed to be their protectors. I worry about their physical and mental health. Do they ever fully recover from going through this? It's just so very sad. cry cry cry cry cry
Posted By: wildlifeangel

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 04:37 AM

I understand the basic premis of masking the scent during introductions, not that I would ever use it for a glider.

When I worked in wildlife, a common practice for introducing the raccoon cubs was to rub menthol on top of their noses to avoid them being able to smell the differences in eachother. This was ONLY done because raccoons were always released in groups of up to 40 so that the clan had a chance in the wild as bonded. BUT that doesn't ever involve soaking, or taking away food or warmth.

WE are not supposed swallow mouthwash, so why would it be appropriate for it to be applied to the genitals where the glider is sure to groom?

It has already been said, so I won't re-iterate too much, but getting a glider wet is dangerous! The other concern, IF I didn't think it was dangerous to just get them wet (follow me for a second here) then the other concern would be the temperature of the room while the gliders are wet... the room and cage area must be at least 85+ degrees (not sure exactly how much) to prevent pneumonia and shock...


Overall.. I see this as a LAZY way to do introductions, it seems to take less time, and they are just together... but it is dangerous and the site even states that they need to check the gliders for wounds! Unless I hear fighting, I do not check my gliders for wounds, because I know things are going well... that is not to say i don't look at and handle them, but I do not look specifically for wounds. That practice seems inhumane and lazy... just bad to do!

Go slower and give your babies a chance to bond!

The whole story just makes me ill. And those who have spoken in favor of it make me even more ill.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 04:44 AM

Can we also add to the 'not to' list of reasons that their fur is VERY dense. It is supposed to REPEL water. Much like a chincilla's fur, strands grow in approximately 50 per follicle, as opposed to our mere one per follicle. Getting them wet could later result in mold and mildew growing on their skin, though they LOOK dry and OK.

This is why they should never get wet and when they do we should hand dry them.
Posted By: Sydvicious

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 05:24 AM

FOR ALL MODS:PLZ BE AWARE THAT THIS IS NOT A BASHING POST!!! I am legally bound as a fellow charitable organization to try and stop the abuse of animals so please do not think I am trying to bash anyone, I am trying to give people on this forum an opportunity to legally do something about the subject at hand.

This is directed at all those people that want to legally do something to stop the abuse of gliders due to this topic...I am the president of a 501 (c) 3 dog rescue and can tell you that what we have been discussing all day is legally considered animal cruelty and can be stopped. As a charitable organization rescues are under the obligation to help and preserve the health and well being of all animals and if a handling technique if found to be inhumane then they have an obligation to change that technique.

If this is somehow compromised then we as citizens have the right to stop the abuse that is being done. I am willing to send this "rescue" a letter in hopes that they will conform to the correct way to treat animals but I will need your help so that we as a collective group will be able to, if necessary, report them to their local authorities in hopes that maybe they will do something to stop the cruelty. I am looking for people willing to at the very least sign a petition to help me stop this, if you are interested please PM me and let me know.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 05:46 AM

This just hurts my heart. They are such teeny tiny defenseless little creatures that depend on us for everything. This is how I would feel if this happened to ME -

If you locked me in a RUNNING car wash with, say: my ex, someone who hurts kids, an an murderer, and someone who gets off on kicking puppies. After leaving us in the carwash for a period of time, they then offered us all one bed, refused to feed us and shined a halogen light on us all night. Yeah, you know what, I MIGHT learn to not want to kill the people around me. But I tell you what, if it didn't kill me, I would certainly HATE the people who did that to me.
Posted By: hpyhwn2003

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 05:52 AM

I DO NOT condone this type of glider to glider bonding as I feel it is a unsafe and harmful practice. I also I don't believe it can possibly achieve a true bond between the gliders JMO.

I'd be willing to sign a petition in the hopes that this rescue would stop using this method.
Posted By: myliljadagirl

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 06:00 AM

Originally Posted By: BelladonnasMom
This is how I would feel if this happened to ME -

If you locked me in a RUNNING car wash with, say: my ex, someone who hurts kids, an an murderer, and someone who gets off on kicking puppies. After leaving us in the carwash for a period of time, they then offered us all one bed, refused to feed us and shined a halogen light on us all night. Yeah, you know what, I MIGHT learn to not want to kill the people around me. But I tell you what, if it didn't kill me, I would certainly HATE the people who did that to me.




Originally Posted By: hpyhwn2003
I DO NOT condone this type of glider to glider bonding as I feel it is a unsafe and harmful practice. I also I don't believe it can possibly achieve a true bond between the gliders JMO.

I'd be willing to sign a petition in the hopes that this rescue would stop using this method.


I agree...100% and I am so signing! Mods...please allow a petition to be placed!!!
Posted By: Feather

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 06:06 AM

Originally Posted By: hpyhwn2003
I DO NOT condone this type of glider to glider bonding as I feel it is a unsafe and harmful practice. I also I don't believe it can possibly achieve a true bond between the gliders JMO.

I'd be willing to sign a petition in the hopes that this rescue would stop using this method.


I feel the same way and I am willing to sign a petition also.
Posted By: Kimberlyann

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 06:06 AM

I am lost in this post as I don't see the original post so I have no idea what is going on.... frown
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 06:19 AM

I would GLADLY sign anything to get this stuff to end. I wanted to cry my eyes out when reading all this. These people should NOT even have gliders to begin with. I just want to cuddle mine. I think i will take tinkerbell with me tomorrow while im out. Knowing how much i love my babies makes me feel so much better.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 06:20 AM

Originally Posted By: Kimberlyann
I am lost in this post as I don't see the original post so I have no idea what is going on.... frown


Apparently there are some people who use a pretty extreme, and to some of us excruciatingly cruel, method of introducing gliders that otherwise haven't learned to get along. They place them in a tiny cage, no pouches or anything, then SOAK the gliders to the skin. Even going so far as to leave the cage in a running shower for an HOUR. After the hour is up, a bright light is shown onto the cage all night, and they are not fed. It is theorized that they will all be so terrified and fixated on the cold and wet they they will all gratefully pile up together in a pouch once the deluge stops.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 06:27 AM

Just to give you a brief synopsis:

The owner of another forum, and several gliders, has introduced a method a few years back that is just now becoming known.

This method is to get gliders housed together. The method is as follows:

Take a cotton ball or qtip and absorb it in mouthwash. Rub it on the gliders' cloacas.

Place gliders to be intro'd into a small cage with no toys or pouches. Place into a running shower. Keep them wet for approximately one hour.

Then offer ONE clean, odor free pouch and place the cage in a bright light. This forces the gliders to huddle together.

Keep this light on the cage over night. Do not offer any food.


The gliders will be too concerned with drying and getting/keeping warm to focus on the 'strange' gliders around them.

So is the theory.
Posted By: Kimberlyann

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 06:56 AM

Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me smile

That is cruel. It is people like that, that also believe that beating a dog is training it.

Even if it did work, it leaves emotional scares and is not healthy physically.

How horrible is it that a new glider owner will read that and think that is the correct way to do an intro.

It is torture and this man should have his gliders taken away and if I had my way imprisoned!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 07:15 AM

"Even going so far as to leave the cage in a running shower for an HOUR"

Just to be clear. The running water wasn't ON the gliders. It was off to the side to supposedly keep the stall warm with the steam.

"Take a cotton ball or qtip and absorb it in mouthwash. Rub it on the gliders' cloacas."

Just to be clear here as well, it is AROUND it, not on it.
(Yes, I know being around it still provides the chance of getting IN it, but just clearing it up)

I know this doesn't change anything one way or another, but I just prefer to have facts straight.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 07:27 AM

I know this won't change anyone's opinions, but its considered a "last resort" for gliders who are desperate for mates.

Maybe you should take a step back and see the good the Lucky Glider Rescue does for gliders, and ask what the real intention is here. They aren't doing this for fun.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 07:36 AM

Span,
LGRS is not the creator of this method. The creator of this method, whom I cannot name as I'd then be breaking GC rules, owns SEVERAL gliders. Recently he used this method to put a group of 3 and a group of 4 together. Tell me, were any of those gliders lonely and in desperate need of mates?

No, they were not. The people using these methods are simply wanting to cut down on the number of cages they have to deal with.

I understand not wanting excess cages. Trust me I do.

At one point my living room was bombarded with cages and glider smells. I hated it. But I followed safe processes and procedures.

I now have a cage of 2 and a cage of 3. One of my girls in my trio does NOT want the duo, although she's SLOWLY (seemingly) coming around to the idea.

The fact of the matter is that there are SERIOUS DANGERS to this method, which is why I will not be using it nor recommending it, ever.

Read the previous posts that cover the dangers. This is not right or fair. This IS animal abuse.

Last method nothing. If gliders don't want to be together, don't you think they have a right to not be forced to live with others they CLEARLY do NOT like!?

I can't imagine being forced to live with my crazy ex and his crazier wife, all because somebody bigger than us want us together so they don't have to 'deal' with 'extra work'.

When you take in several gliders from various locations, you run the risk of forever having more than one cage. Don't like it? Don't do it!
Posted By: Marsupial_Mayhem

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 07:48 AM

Yes but the rescue you mention is endorsing this method and stands behind it. Which leads me to believe he practices the method himself. If he is doing this, then he shouldn't have a rescue.
Posted By: Marsupial_Mayhem

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 07:51 AM

I know this area is very sensitive. I would think the glider would know something that stings is on this area before he even grooms it.

I can't believe we have to talk about this. This is insane.

Thanks for sharing your experience on this Nadine.

I still just keep shaking my head with this whole issue.
Posted By: Marsupial_Mayhem

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 07:53 AM

Originally Posted By: Sydvicious
FOR ALL MODS:PLZ BE AWARE THAT THIS IS NOT A BASHING POST!!! I am legally bound as a fellow charitable organization to try and stop the abuse of animals so please do not think I am trying to bash anyone, I am trying to give people on this forum an opportunity to legally do something about the subject at hand.

This is directed at all those people that want to legally do something to stop the abuse of gliders due to this topic...I am the president of a 501 (c) 3 dog rescue and can tell you that what we have been discussing all day is legally considered animal cruelty and can be stopped. As a charitable organization rescues are under the obligation to help and preserve the health and well being of all animals and if a handling technique if found to be inhumane then they have an obligation to change that technique.

If this is somehow compromised then we as citizens have the right to stop the abuse that is being done. I am willing to send this "rescue" a letter in hopes that they will conform to the correct way to treat animals but I will need your help so that we as a collective group will be able to, if necessary, report them to their local authorities in hopes that maybe they will do something to stop the cruelty. I am looking for people willing to at the very least sign a petition to help me stop this, if you are interested please PM me and let me know.
Thank you. We do have a representative of the Mill Breeder Project on this right now.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 07:56 AM

Danielle,
You're right. LGRS, as I said, is NOT the creator, but they do practice this method. I've NEVER had an issue with them or their practices, but THIS bothers me.
Posted By: myliljadagirl

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 08:09 AM

Originally Posted By: Span
"last resort"

Maybe you should take a step back and see the good the ***k* ***d*r ***c*e does for gliders, and ask what the real intention is here. They aren't doing this for fun.


"last resort" that is why it say's on a web site from this "place" that they "recommend" the "method" I am sorry...this was not being called a "last resort"


Also...you say take a step back, well maybe others that agree with this "method" should take a step back and look at it another way!

-If you have one person tell you something you are doing could be "wrong" or harmful...you most likely do not really stop doing it! (unless there is solid proof...or till more agrees)

-However if you have a community of people telling one something is wrong, and could KILL an animal, what do you think should be done???

I am sorry...but at this point...this is no better then PPP!!! And I hope everything is done to prevent them and relieve them from further care of Glider!
Posted By: shadow_

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 08:38 AM

omg yeah this rescue who feeds their gliders a great diet, big cages,vet care and good homes is no better then ppp the mill broker who gives out bad info, feeds pellets, and gives the glider to anyone who has money. so lets focus all our energy into taking down this rescue instead of some other mill breeder or whatever person.
(hope i can say all that here never posted before)
Posted By: xSwtxSugaX

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 08:45 AM

Haha!! (sorry not really a laughing matter) I just went on the forum and checked out the whole debate. I have to say I def do not agree with this one bit, but I have to add Elena AWESOME job puuting up a fight girl. Im sure there were many more who posted there that i didnt recognize but bravo. And the person who directed everyone here, that made me chuckle smile Way to hit them where it hurts wink

I love everyone here so much smile Really I do!!!


On to the subject at matter tho. It seems everyone following this method cant get there info straight. One person says to do it one way and then the next person gets defensive and says that "we" (people who dont agree) dont know what were talking about, to read the directions, and do it a totally different way than stated.

Gliders are exotic animals, and exotic animals in my opinion are fragile and have to have special treatment and care given. Even if its "a little water" like they are stating... a little water for an hour is absolutely outragous. I give my cat a bath... but I dont make her suffer through it for an hour. more like 5 min. If its not abuse then its just cruel. And they keep stating its last resort. If its last resort why are SO MANY of them doing it. Seems like there trying to just make things easier on themselves.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 09:00 AM

Originally Posted By: xSwtxSugaX
Haha!! (sorry not really a laughing matter) I just went on the forum and checked out the whole debate. I have to say I def do not agree with this one bit, but I have to add Elena AWESOME job puuting up a fight girl. Im sure there were many more who posted there that i didnt recognize but bravo. And the person who directed everyone here, that made me chuckle smile Way to hit them where it hurts wink

I love everyone here so much smile Really I do!!!


On to the subject at matter tho. It seems everyone following this method cant get there info straight. One person says to do it one way and then the next person gets defensive and says that "we" (people who dont agree) dont know what were talking about, to read the directions, and do it a totally different way than stated.

Gliders are exotic animals, and exotic animals in my opinion are fragile and have to have special treatment and care given. Even if its "a little water" like they are stating... a little water for an hour is absolutely outragous. I give my cat a bath... but I dont make her suffer through it for an hour. more like 5 min. If its not abuse then its just cruel. And they keep stating its last resort. If its last resort why are SO MANY of them doing it. Seems like there trying to just make things easier on themselves.



I agree entirely!
I can't post on GG any longer as I left. Long and involved story, but that's not what we're here for. wink
I have read the threads involving this. (I didn't catch 'who' Elena was. For shame! lol)

But I am impressed with the number of 'newbs' who signed up merely to speak their peace.

If only people would pay attention to the facts. But, like has been said, it appears this method is merely being used now to 'make life easy' on the humans. Apparently the emotional and psychological state of our gliders don't matter.
Posted By: xSwtxSugaX

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 09:13 AM

Elena is hpyhwn2003 here on GC as well as there forum. (atleaste I assumed since they are exactly the same) Dont know her personaly but have heard alot of good things about her. smile

And catman, I understand everyone has different ideas of animal cruelty, by law some things skim by because of certain issues. In dogs they have to have there tails and ears clipped at a very young age, which I guess they consider ok since they wont remember it. It doesnt make it right. But everyone has there own opinions. think of taking someones worst fear and making them deal with it for an hour. I get how these people think they will get over this fear and group together but in some instances it is traumatizing. Put me in a tub of beetles for an hour im def not going to be ok wih it. Im going to have nightmares for years! I wouldnt even let my animals in the rain for an hour.

people were stating as well that sugar gliders come from a rainforest and get wet all the time. Im not an expert but 1) they have a huge amount of tree cover to hold alot of rain back and 2) im sure they have plenty of places to hide and keep warm in. Like I said.. could be wrong.. just my thoughts rambling on but I just dont think its right. IMO
Posted By: myliljadagirl

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 09:21 AM

Originally Posted By: shadow_
omg yeah this rescue who feeds their gliders a great diet, big cages,vet care and good homes is no better then ppp the mill broker who gives out bad info, feeds pellets, and gives the glider to anyone who has money. so lets focus all our energy into taking down this rescue instead of some other mill breeder or whatever person.
(hope i can say all that here never posted before)


Well when a company and or an entity refuses to acknowledge that something they are doing is wrong even after it has been brought to there attention...yeah...I feel they can be compared.

If the company/and or entity were to admit that there choices are wrong, and things could be handled in a different fashion...I would have much more respect for that. It would be better to see a mistake...fix it, then for just hoping it will pass over and defending it!!

I hate to say this...but when you are in a rescue situation...no matter what good you do...one wrong...counteracts everything!!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 09:28 AM

Stacie, I have a terrible habit of not even regarding screen names but rather merely paying attention to profile photos and signatures. xD

Now I recall the posts in which were by Elena. Yes, Elena is a good person. I've not gotten much liberty myself to speak to her one on one, although I recently added her to my FB so maybe soon. (Hint hint Elena!)

Also, you're totally right about your ideas about tree cover in the rainforest. In the rain forest, the treetops act as a barrier or an umbrella, keeping much of the ground dry. What dampens the ground is not actually rain itself but instead the humidity and the precipitation above. And gliders dwell IN trees, so they CAN keep dry. ((I LOVED studying the rainforest in school.. can you tell!?))

Originally Posted By: myliljadagirl
I hate to say this...but when you are in a rescue situation...no matter what good you do...one wrong...counteracts everything!!!


This is so very very true.
Posted By: Bozeman

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 09:32 AM

Originally Posted By: myliljadagirl
I hate to say this...but when you are in a rescue situation...no matter what good you do...one wrong...counteracts everything!!!


So true. It is very important to gain, and keep, a glider's trust...
Posted By: xSwtxSugaX

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 09:39 AM

If were making hints then I will as well... Elena.. HINT HINT!! haha. (I absolutely love elf btw)

Im glad I was correct about atleast one fact. With that I would have to say if I was ever in the situation I would have to send my babies to a rescue, if I found out they were trying this method on my Babies, Button and Stitch, I would have a fit. It just amazes me, I mean truelly amazes me that they keep stressing "last resort". But apparently there are videos on how to do it. Anyone can cross those and get the wrong idea. I just dont believe anyone should put an animal through stress like that except for last resort. Which in my mind is an animal very sick or dieing, going to the vet and being giving shots, medicine or surgery. Thats a stress of last resort. puting colonies together that wouldnt normaly get along to take down cage space is just waiting for trouble in my opinion.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 09:43 AM

Not just waiting for trouble, but simply being selfish.

Like I said earlier.. I can't imagine being FORCED into being near my crazy ex and his crazy wife. There's a reason we don't get along. So, be avoid each other.

Same with gliders. If they don't get along. There's a reason, yet here people are, in all their selfish ways, forcing glider to TOLERATE each other all because they don't want 'extra cages'.

How very sad for these innocent animals. They depend on us, their owners, to protect them, yet we subject them to this.

*shakes head*
Posted By: myliljadagirl

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 09:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Bozeman
Originally Posted By: myliljadagirl
I hate to say this...but when you are in a rescue situation...no matter what good you do...one wrong...counteracts everything!!!


So true. It is very important to gain, and keep, a glider's trust...


thumb Thx!

Agree 100% If I were to have done this "method" to (and yes...I said "to") Jada...I feel it would have made her 10x worse then she was! I busted my bum off to get that little girl to trust me...and now she is a much more happy glider! Who loves her mum!

No way...no how! No "last resort" IDC
Posted By: xSwtxSugaX

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 09:49 AM

Originally Posted By: myliljadagirl
[

Agree 100% If I were to have done this "method" to (and yes...I said "to") Jada...I feel it would have made her 10x worse then she was! I busted my bum off to get that little girl to trust me...and now she is a much more happy glider! Who loves her mum!

No way...no how! No "last resort" IDC



Agreeable. My Button is a hand full, and still isnt easily bonded, I had to wipe her down with a wash cloth to get feces off her and she flipped out. Imagine me soaking her in water. She would NEVER bond with me.
Posted By: myliljadagirl

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 10:04 AM

Yes...thank you...my point to a "t"

I just can't imagine who, or what she would have been like...and anyone who knew me from my first ohhhh 50 post's on here...there were time's that I questioned my continued glider ownership! I was so scared of doing something wrong...what if a new kid get's ahold of this information and does do it!

We then clean up the mess?!?! UGH! Damage has been done! What's next...water on the glider, water on you, water on the tent and then the glider will bond with you?!?! Oh wait...that is not cool because we are talking about people too now! (BTW please do not do this anyone...water on you, on a glider...just using as a very BAD example!)
Posted By: xSwtxSugaX

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 10:06 AM

haha! We can take showers with our gliders to bond better. What a silly idea wink
Posted By: myliljadagirl

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 10:16 AM

Sorry...had to add the "don't do this anyone" to protect the new kids and there gliders!!

But yeah...it is silly, but if you can get past the anger...putting gliders in a cage all wet I guess could be considered silly too...till s/o does it!

Ok no...still not silly!

I still say one of think's that makes me so upset is the people that are defending it!
Posted By: xSwtxSugaX

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 10:28 AM

ok... not so silly. But im not gunna lie, I did have a quick image in my head of me in the shower, Stitch on my shoulder with a santa clause beard made out of bubbles. Now thats... silly smile


Sorry, had to lighten the mood somehow. Its in my nature laugh
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 02:01 PM

Span, im trying to empathize, but i have personal conflict with it. If these gliders are exposed to all this, how does it make things any better for them health wise and opinion wise of the human race? In the next few months i plan on making my 4 gliders into a colony, but if i know they just wont go together, why force them. Right now i clean 3 cages everyday and my largest one is about 5 feet tall, i dont mind as long as my babies are happy.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 02:42 PM

Quote:
I know this won't change anyone's opinions, but its considered a "last resort" for gliders who are desperate for mates.

Maybe you should take a step back and see the good the Lucky Glider Rescue does for gliders, and ask what the real intention is here. They aren't doing this for fun.


Wow I have a lot to say here but I'll be nice...but to me, the "last resort" would be to keep said gliders apart, in different cages until a more thought out and safe plan can happen. There is no reason to put these gliders through this torture...no reason at all.

Long story short...I had Quincy alone, took in J&B, thought "I can house all 3 together"...Quincy did NOT like J or B so I just bought 2 new cages instead of one and they were neighbors. Once I got Renny, Quincy responded very VERY positively to her, so after several weeks of cage item swapping, I was able to introduce them in a safe environment. If Renny never came along...I would have kept Quincy alone in a cage NEXT to J&B and not force them to live together so MY life would be easier taking care of one cage, not 2.

Some gliders are just not meant to be housed with other gliders...if you try and it doesn't go well, there are several other options besides this "method".

And OT..my boxer has NO problem with not having a tail he was what, a day old at the time??? I have a problem with his ears being cropped because I didn't want it done, my husband did. Would we do it again? NOPE...but that statment made above has nothing to do with the topic on hand...doing this to ANY animal so there are less cages to maintain to me means...stop having so many gliders...downsize in a more positive way (finding homes for them) and to NOT be a rescue.

If your hands are full...then re-examine YOUR situation, don't create a stressful, potentially dangerous situation to make YOUR life easier.
Posted By: Lucky_Glider

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 02:42 PM

Kind people, I posted most of this on the other site. I see someone here who is a breeder is "out to get us" but I don't think everyone has all the facts. First, for any breeder to be moralizing about proper rescue is kind of ironic, seeing as there is an imbalance between breeding and rescue at the moment. But still everyone is entitled to their opinion. If any of you want to come to our rescue and inspect our methods, the health of the animals, our medical records - bring it on with or without a crew of officials, onlookers, and trouble-makers. Our rescue will not be brought down on such flimsy innuendo and pure opinion. Now try that with breeders who sell gliders in California who have fake addresses. So I am saying we relish our accountability and we are public. We are not afraid of being accountable out in the open. Are you?

So now I will offer you some facts and some opinion. I will then leave having spoken my peace. If anyone wants to call, write, petition, whatever you as a freeminded American (or not) are free to do so. We, unlike some people who hide behind fake names and have fake addresses and no published phone number - are out in the open for everyone to pick at and judge.

We will continue to publish our experiences in rescue for the benefit of the community as we have for years. Not everyone will agree with us. If we find a method that works we will use it. If it fails we will admit it. We are an open book and share our experiences to enrich and educate the community. So we don't hide under a rock and cower because something we have tried may be controversial.

Now here is what I said on the other site that I beg you to consider:

Guys, while I'm sorry this has gotten so heated and it saddens us that we have polarized the community and some of our old friends, we are still advocating this method if the circumstances call for it. We still care about all of you and of course the animals and beg you to treat us in good faith and extend the benefit of doubt to us. We try a lot of things to benefit the gliders and share them with you to help you all decide and learn. You don't have to like everything we do.

We have even tried chlomipramine (with vet supervision) on gliders to keep them from over-grooming. We feel like we have done it all. Besides malnutrition, the one of the biggest problems we have are the side-effects of being alone as a glider.

So because this method can work in certain circumstances, and because we have "tried it all" we felt compelled to share our experience knowing full well it may be controversial.

For those of you who want to conduct a mature and logical conversation about it, I am up for it. But for now I will simply memorialize our position the best I can for you all to judge us as you may.

We can justify what we are doing on moral grounds. How? Because abusive is allowing a single glider to languish, get depressed and hurt itself. Especially ones who over-groom and self-mutilate. This method, in some circumstances, can solve that. That's not abusive. That's improving the quality of life for the animal.

Until you have seen our operation, met the animals and review our medical records, you don't have a grasp of the magnitude of the problem dealing with single gliders who are hurting. Until you have dealt with that first hand (and not just with one pet) your perspective is somewhat limited. Not until someone has the guts to share their methods and post them is your perspective enabled to grow based on others' experiences. No amount of holding and cuddling a single, who clearly needs more care than a colony animal, is going to truly solve the problem.

There are few facts I would like to point out as an answer to some of the more random comments and then a few thoughts on animal abuse.

First a few facts:

1. My wife Gail is the full-time director of LGRS. That means it's her full time job. I support that financially with my job and we also get donations. Someone said that we are handling too many gliders. Well, if Gail were not a full time volunteer with her life dedicated to the animals, that may be true. But she is 100% dedicated. It's what she does "for a living." I help out with correspondence and fund raising. Before I go to work, I care for the ranch animals and again when I come home. We also have volunteers come twice a week to help us with cage cleaning and food prep. Our goal is to rescue, rehabilitate and adopt out healthy pets. A few are in sanctuary care. So before you judge and say we are handling too many pets - understand the facts. The only reason we have "too many" or any other rescue has "too many" is because we can't keep up with the greed of the breeders who tell lies about gliders in order to sell them. It's all the lies that create a situation where people are at our doorstep surrendering animals. So if you want to complain about who has "too many" animals talk to the people who have a thousand or more breeding pairs in tiny cube cages nailed to the wall. Really.

2. Over the years, we have experimented with different introduction techniques. We have published those. So now we are publishing our experiences with OUR VERSION of the "wet" one. Our resolve to share our experiences with the community has not changed, even with this controversy. Look, we have developed and practice all of the known techniques. This one is an alternative if other techniques fail.

We have also published information on breeders' lies, ratios, diet and all kinds of things. When you publish things, you will always have people who sit back and judge you - people who make no contribution to the community whatsoever except to cause trouble. And of course there are people who also contribute but simply don't agree with us on certain things. That's OK. We care about them all and everyone deserves to voice their opinion, because this is America and this is a public forum.

3. We do not advocate spraying them down with a shower. We do not do that. Instead, for the four individuals we have tried this on, I have cupped them in my hand and rubbed the tepid water onto them gently.

4. We have gotten numerous gliders soaking wet as a result of hydrotherapy treatments for open wounds. Them being wet does not hurt them. Repeat: It does not hurt them.

5. The mouthwash thing. Not alcohol-based mouthwash. no-sting mouthwash does not hurt them. It just helps to mask scent for a few hours.

Now a few thoughts on animal abuse:

Animal abuse: Hitting, striking, whipping, jabbing, stabbing
Animal abuse: Neglecting their nutritional needs
Animal abuse: Neglecting their medical needs
Animal abuse: Constant forced breeding which shortens their life
Animal abuse: Keeping them in tiny cage with no toys or protection
Animal abuse: Allowing constant extreme temperatures
Animal abuse: Allowing ongoing painful suffering
Animal abuse: Forcing single gliders to live alone
Animal abuse: Shipping them when you have no clue if there is a plane delay, etc. if they will sit in a hot or cold plane belly and die
Animal abuse: Exhausting animals with chores and work that hurts them
Animal abuse: Tight pens and force-feeding to fatten them for commercial gain
Animal abuse: Forcing them to cannibalize each other with illegal feeds
Animal abuse: Allowing them to fight without separating them
Animal Abuse: Forcing them to fight for sport
Animal abuse: Leashes or other restraints for long periods unless by medical order
Animal Abuse: Allowing an animal to self-mutilate or over-groom and not doing anything about it

NOT Animal abuse: Getting them wet for a few hours in order to improve the quality of their lives.
NOT Animal abuse: Immobilizing them to cut their nails
NOT Animal abuse: Neutering them so they don't procreate
NOT Animal abuse: Culling out fighters into separate cages

So there is our list.


For and in our judgment, it's about quality of life. That's what we strive for. This is a controversial method, but in some circumstances, we advocate it in order to improve their quality of life.


Improving the quality of life of these animals is not abusive. Not doing something to improve their quality of life is what's abusive.



By the way, Dizzy has stopped pulling out her own fur. Think about that

P.S. We do not advocate doing this just to join cages of multiple animals. We advocate trying it after other methods have failed for singles who have over-grooming, stress, or self-mutilation tendencies
Posted By: Bozeman

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 02:56 PM

Thank you for the response Ed.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind anyone who want to respond to his post to adhere to Rule 4:

4. GliderCENTRAL is a family oriented "G" rated board. Be polite, courteous and respectful to other board members at all times.

Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 03:14 PM




I am just getting caught up on this and I have so many thoughts and emotions about this that I don't know where to start.

First, I would like to thank GC for allowing this discussion to continue here where it can be discussed rationally.

At this point I don't think I would do this. But I don't see this as being presented as a sure fire way to do introductions. I don't see them telling everyone that this should done in every situation. I see it as being presented as something that has been tried as a last resort and that has had some successes and some failures.

So what part of getting an animal wet is animal cruelty? Should we sign a petition against mother nature? Maybe if we get enough support we could do something to stop all that rain and flooding in Australia right now. And I think the rain hit the top of the trees in the rain forest and it didn't just stay there, it flowed down to the ground and accumulated there. Yes, I am being sarcastic. LOL I will try to contain myself.

So much of what I am reading here is opinion based in emotions; not facts. Gliders are a lot hardier than we give them credit for. Getting a glider wet does not cause any physical or emotional harm. Wetting a glider does not cause compromised immune systems, self mutilation, respiratory infections, death, or neurological problems...and it definitely will not cause them to mold or mildew.

BTW, if your glider does repetitive actions such as pacing, running circles and back flips, that is usually a learned behavior from excessive lack of enrichment at some point in the gliders life. Sorry that is off track, isn't it.

I don't know if this will pan out to be something that we can use in bonding or not. I do know that I trust the folks at LGRS. BTW for those of you who think they are just some little rescue, I can assure you that they are a legal 501c3 organization that has helped many, many gliders and many glider owners. I have watched Ed and Gail grow and sacrifice and put their whole life on hold for the love of their animals. That is why I trust their opinion.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 03:38 PM

Anita,
Pictures and video have surfaced of glider being COMPLETELY drenched, and this is causing an uproar, as are the 'directions' for the method, which I believe you can find on page one, but it may have been page two.

I don't have the time (nor patience, tbh) to delve further into other things you've mentioned, but you are indeed wrong on multiple accounts, including insignificant details to this controversy.

When I come back tonight, after I slave away for 10+ hours, should this thread be continuing, which I assume it will be, I will cover more.

Good day to you all.

Be nice! wink
lol
Posted By: hwh4ev

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 03:43 PM

syd,
i will sign your petition.

regards,
nancy in detroit
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 03:48 PM

I've never heard anyone call washing a wound out with saline hydrotherapy before. Sounds just like a name made up to make things sound bigger than they are. Wounds are cleaned and dressed - i. e. dried or bandaged - after the wetting. These gliders are not. I consider the practice being discussed here cruel and unusual.
Posted By: eterrell84

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 03:53 PM

ill sign any petition i can get my hands on. hydrotherapy has been around forever, but heres the definition: ***Hydrotherapy, formerly called hydropathy, involves the use of water for pain-relief and treating illness.***
just thought id clear that up.
also, anita, ive seen lots of accredited "rescuers" doing some terribly WRONG things. just because you have an accreditation with whoever, doesnt mean much to me. its how you treat the animals, make sure they have vet care (not saying they dont just saying)....
Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 03:56 PM

Originally Posted By: Megs
Anita,
Pictures and video have surfaced of glider being COMPLETELY drenched, and this is causing an uproar, as are the 'directions' for the method, which I believe you can find on page one, but it may have been page two.

I don't have the time (nor patience, tbh) to delve further into other things you've mentioned, but you are indeed wrong on multiple accounts, including insignificant details to this controversy.

When I come back tonight, after I slave away for 10+ hours, should this thread be continuing, which I assume it will be, I will cover more.

Good day to you all.

Be nice! wink
lol


Great Megs, I can hardly wait. Nothing i enjoy more than a good debate of the facts. Have a great day at work.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 03:56 PM

Quote:
Animal abuse: Forcing single gliders to live alone


But if you have tried introducing a glider to another and that glider clearly shows he does NOT want to be anywhere near the other glider(s)...then that is something that should be taken into consideration. In a scenario like that, it's clearly not the human forcing the animal to live alone, the animal is clearly showing its distain...for a reason.

And even though your rescue is run by your wife and as you stated it's her full time job...keep in mind that even doctors won't take on new patients if their workload is too full. Keeping in contact with other rescues is a good idea...if one rescue has a full house so to speak, maybe other rescues DO have the extra time and/or room to lend a hand. That's all I'm saying.
Posted By: Lucky_Glider

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 03:59 PM

Originally Posted By: lovely1inred
I've never heard anyone call washing a wound out with saline hydrotherapy before. Sounds just like a name made up to make things sound bigger than they are. Wounds are cleaned and dressed - i. e. dried or bandaged - after the wetting. These gliders are not. I consider the practice being discussed here cruel and unusual.


As a point of fact hydrotherapy is a best practice established by veterinarians. So no, it is not just a made-up thing thank you. Here are some facts about it and also wet/dry bandage treatment that goes beyond the pedestrian view:

Hydrotherapy in the simplest terms is running water over an affected area. Hydrotherapy can be done with warm water. In some cases, hydrotherapy is done with sterile saline solution and introduced with a hermetically sealed plastic syringe.

Here are a few examples when we have, under orders from our vet(s), used hydrotherapy:

1. After wet/dry bandage treatment, we used hydrotherapy on the head and neck of Padme, a rescue who's mating wound was hidden and progressed to an abscess. That abscess when cleaned-out and drained by a vet caused the skin on top of her skull to slough off.

With wet/dry bandaging, a sterile wet guaze is stitched or affixed directly on the affected area. This stimulates granulation. Then dry bandages are woven in on top of that to keep out debris. After three weeks of wet/dry bandaging and daily changing of the gauze, we began hydrotherapy. Every day. It started with sterile saline and after three weeks, we were able to use tap water. Around the edges of the wound, the water was used to flush out debris and stimulate skin growth and granulation. It took 6 months for the skin to finally stretch and cover her skull. 6 months of hydrotherapy. That's not abuse. That's saving life. With water. Today, although single, she is a happy little glider and getting her head and body wet every day with water did not phase her. So no one can tell me getting a glider wet is abusive.

2. Eye infections. Hyrdotherapy is a common method to use when gliders' eyes become weepy or infected. It is crucial to keep the corners of their eyes clear of debris and puss if they are having eye problems. This is also true of post enucleation surgery when the eyeball has to be removed. One our our rescues Doc, from the dwarf colony, has had regular bouts with eye puss. Our vet has encouraged hydrotherapy and special eye drops for that. He gets all wet in the process. Another rescue, who has since been adopted, called Makudo had hydrotherapy with sterile water after his enucleation surgery.

3. Open mating wounds or over-grooming wounds. We have had occasion to use regular hydrotherapy on no less than a dozen or so gliders this past year who either came in with or received wounds from other members of their colonies. Depending on the size of the wound, vets may sometimes stitch them shut but with gliders, this often leads to abscesses which can be deadly. Many vets like the idea of the wound healing open. In this case, both honey treatment and hydrotherapy are common methods. Of course with the hydrotherapy they get soaking wet. Every other day for two or three weeks. But it's worth it because the wound heals well.

Gliders receiving this treatment for medical reasons recently were Dizzy, Ginger, Clyde, Darla, and Buttercup. All of them have been paired up with strange gliders after getting "kicked out" of their respective colonies - four of them with the "wet" method of introduction after other methods failed.

After having used hydrotherapy for medical reasons so successfully, under doctors' orders for so many times - it does not even occur to me that getting a glider wet is "abusive."

Your perspective changes I guess if you have experience with Hydrotherapy. Not all vets ascribe to it, just like all vets do not ascribe to honey treatments as an antimicrobial. But just because *you* have never heard of something does not mean it's made up. It occurs to me that if you do not know about a subject thoroughly, you *ask* for more information instead of just debunking it out of hand.
Posted By: carolinasuggies

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 04:01 PM

I think IMO this method is torture and I will sign a petition! Just b/c a vet does something safely doesn't mean it's okay for it to be done WAY differently & unsafely at home to force glider's that obviously dont want to be together into a tiny cage together!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 04:04 PM

I also have another question for Ed...if he is still reading..

You stated in your post that you hold the glider and gently put water on them...is the glider wiggling? Trying to get away from the water? Is the glider sitting in your open hand or are you keeping a good grip on the animal so it can't get away while you are wetting its fur?

That in my opinion...is abuse. It's forcing the animal to sit still while you wet it and it has no means of escape.

That is not me calling you names, or bad mouthing you...just me wanting to know how you wet the glider while holding it in your hand.
Posted By: eterrell84

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 04:06 PM

Lucky_Glider, i understand your saying hydrotherapy is used and is very common, I TOTALLY AGREE. HOWEVER, i do not agree that water should be used in an "introduction" kind of setting. i think the gliders will live, and not be "physically harmed" from this. our main concern as a board (NOT speaking for anybody buy myself, just trying to say what i see)seems to be the stress it causes the gliders... and the bond with the HUMANS than will be strained bc of this.
im a firm believer of hydrotherapy, have used it myself before and its a miracle, BUT thats not what we are seeing here. i understand MOST things ARE a dispute when it comes to the glider community... but i think when board after board suggest this is inhumane, i would reconsider my actions. shock therapy used to be very common, does that mean we should still use it??? just an honest question i actually WANT you to answer please!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 04:13 PM

I'm a newbie but I can't imagine how soaking the animal, putting mouthwash on their cloaca, and putting them under a bright light is anything less than cruel.

Not trying to call names or anything but this whole thing doesn't sound right at all.

Would it not be better to just keep the glider single and spend extra time with it to keep it happy? And continue to try to find a match for it with other gliders using more traditional methods?
Posted By: Kimberlyann

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 04:14 PM

Anita Rae, I think your reasoning is far off base. Yes in their natural habitat it does rain, and even flood, but in the wild they are not locked in a tiny cage. They are free to take cover such as a hollow of a tree where they have built a nest to keep them warm.

Saying that nature deals it out so it is not harmful is not true. Gliders in captivity live longer for one. And for two, should we allow nature to take it's course for all of us and our pets?? Such as illness? Or the harshness of winter? Should we starve animals that otherwise would have no food in the winter? That is absurd thinking on your part. No we should not stop the rain, but rather have the ability and right to come in from it smile

Yes gliders may be tougher than we think they are. But causing a glider to be wet and sit there and shiver for an hour is causing the glider undue stress, which can affect the immune system. Also would frighten the glider. If I am trying to bond with a glider and earn trust the last thing I would want to do is traumatize it. I would never take my daughter, even though she is tough, and put her in a shower get her soaked and then make her stand there for an hour and then not feed her till the next day. That is abuse, and if you do not think so, I would suggest you try it on yourself. Go stand in the shower, lukewarm, and then shut it off. And stand there for an hour, and tell me you are not shivering cold. Next, lock yourself in a room with no tv etc (toys) under bright lights for the rest of the day and the nite without eating. Let me know how it goes, and if you want to get the real experience, do it with a stranger or someone you cannot stand.
Posted By: hwh4ev

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 04:37 PM

the videos that are being shown to the public do not help gliders. case in point.
on my facebook page yesterday a friend tagged a lady (cant say her name on here) with a picture of her putting a glider
into a tub of water. cold or hot i do not know.

the point is this- you show videos of this nature and other
people will take it and think they are improving it with this kind of abuse.

it is abuse period. if a lone glider is that sad and needs a buddy they wouldnt need to take their shower or whatever because the humane way would work. takes time.
if you dont have the time then you need to downsize.

disgusted in detroit.
nancy
p.s. mouthwash with or without alcohol is poison. gliders lick it. i will sign a petition to try to shut you down. you do more damage then you are willing to admit. bonding? the next poor soul that gets one of your glider with this treatment will never have a good bonding relation. you will prob. get it back in time. what is the point.
Posted By: Rubym

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 04:44 PM

I dont understand what kind of a person sits around and comes up with these ideas????? I would deff sign a petition if one went around. I must be a naive idiot because I sat and worried about washing the crusty spot on my guys head with a qtip because he didnt like it. I cant imagine soaking the little guy or putting anything on him that would inflict pain. I dont care if my little ones are "tougher then I think" or not......y would I ever feel the need to treat them in a cruel and inhumane manner. I hate being cold and wet and I sure as [censored] wouldnt want to be FORCED to exist in a small confined area with someone I dont know or dont like. I have the means to remove myself from these situations.....my animals do not. It is up to me to be the one to make sure they never have to be cold, wet, hungry or unhappy if I can help it!!!!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 04:48 PM

I would suggest you try it on yourself. Go stand in the shower, lukewarm, and then shut it off. And stand there for an hour, and tell me you are not shivering cold. Next, lock yourself in a room with no tv etc (toys) under bright lights for the rest of the day and the nite without eating. Let me know how it goes, and if you want to get the real experience, do it with a stranger or someone you cannot stand.




I agree
Posted By: Jos

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 04:55 PM

I'm rather new to all this, and I've not had to deal with over grooming and depression as I bought my twins in a pair, and they will be neutered and joined by their soon to be sister, Chai, shortly later.

HOWEVER, people in glass houses should not cast stones.

I'm not saying that we need to be allowing people who DON'T know what their doing to be doing this "wet" treatment, and I doubt if I'd allow it, I'd rather hunt for a successful partner to my gliders but that is ME.

That being said, I hardly think wetting an animal classifies as abuse because it struggles. My Pomeranian struggles when I give him a bath because he much prefers being a smelly little puffball, my wolfdog also used to struggle against it because she just did not like water. Does that mean I'm abusing them by forcing them to take the water? No. And anyone who's owned a dog knows that bathing a dog does it no harm, or even bathing a cat... if your so inclined... I wouldn't do it as I prefer all my skin to NOT be clawed up.

Again, not advocating the method, just pointing out a flawed theory on animal cruelty. Animals get wet, it happens. If you told me that EVERY glider in the wild has NEVER EVER gotten soaked, then I'd politely disagree to that as well. And sure, gliders have more likely then not died due to hypothermia or somesuch because of getting wet so I do see why it is so very strongly opposed. So while I wouldn't do this MYSELF, I won't shun people who have in Vet supervised situations, I do stress Vet supervised. Sometimes situations call for drastic measures, and that's how life is.

I do believe this "method" NEEDS to be controlled, I do NOT believe that we need to be pointing fingers at someone who did it because the animals could have SMed because they were alone.
Posted By: Kimberlyann

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 05:06 PM

It isn't just that they are getting wet. It is that they are getting wet and leaving them wet and cold for an hour and then not feeding them. It is just over the top. There are better ways to go about this.
Posted By: eterrell84

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 05:11 PM

Originally Posted By: hwh4ev
the next poor soul that gets one of your glider with this treatment will never have a good bonding relation. you will prob. get it back in time. what is the point.

i hate taking just a fraction of what you said nancy, but im going to.
i TOTALLY agree with this! this has the potential to cause an increase in "returned merchandise" .... there will be newbies who try this thinking they are doing best for their gliders, only to cause a terrible relationship between the owner and gliders. therefore, we could possibly see even MORE people who "cant bond" so will there be a human/animal way to do this? like lets ALL get in the shower and the only dry spot will be my bra? (as in training for a bra baby?) where does this end?
Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 05:36 PM

I think I am starting to get de ja vu here. This is a discussion that I have had before. Am I condoning this method. Not at this point. I would however like to know more about it instead of all the speculation and accusations about gliders shivering and dying from it.

Kimberlyann, I think you totally missed the point of my sarcasm, which is...getting an animal wet is not animal cruelty in any law book anywhere on this planet. Animals in the wild do have a choice and they usually choose to go out in it instead of going hungry.

We HAVE seen in this community times when everyone on every forum said something is wrong and everyone got their panties in a wad about things and later it was determined that the whole community was wrong. There was a time when there was only one diet accepted and if you raised your head and said that you didn't use it, you could expect to be thoroughly thumped by the community. Heaven help you if you slipped your glider a piece of cat food occasionally. But we grew and we learned and now there is a huge selection of diets to choose from or it is alright to feed none of them.

And there was a time when this community would get in an uproar at just the mention of putting any kind of coating on wood. Now we know that there are many safe ways to coat wood for glider toys and boxes.

So instead of being so closed minded, and ready to throw a good rescue under the bus, why don't we open up a little and ask some good questions and get some real facts before we set in judgment.

I would like to know from the source how many times this has been tried? And what is the success rate? Water temperatures? Room temperatures? What steps were taken before this was used. Longevity of those that it seems to have worked on?

Most people, even newbies have the intelligence to choose for themselves whether this is a method that will work for them or not when all the facts are put out there. And if we put all the information out, the risks and the benefits, without the fear mongering and the finger pointing, most people can decide for themselves if they want to try it.

I sure wish I saw this much passion about stopping the mills. Maybe then we wouldn't need so many rescues and maybe the rescues that we have would be overcrowded and having to turn away gliders in need.

One more thing. When ya'll get this petition together, please post it somewhere that I can read it. I need a good laugh today. And be sure that you site the animal cruelty laws that have been broken in the petition. I will help you out and list the ones that I know of below.



There. Did you get them? Yep, that was more sarcasm...Sorry.

Ok, I don't mean any disrespect with all of this but some of it has been so blown out of proportion that it is almost ridicules. I mean come on...seriously? Their skin is not going to mold and mildew from this, and they are not going to be forever emotionally damaged from getting wet for a few hours.
Posted By: wclanton423

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 05:52 PM

So what happens to the gliders that go through this introduction process and still do not get along?
Posted By: Jos

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 05:57 PM

As I said Kimberlyann, the 'method' NEEDS to be controlled and, more likely then not, changed. I'm not advocating it's use or saying it's right to treat the animal as such.

Merely stating that wetting an animal that is struggling AGAINST the water isn't cruelty. I don't agree with LEAVING the animal wet, just as I wouldn't want to remain wet after being drenched. I still believe that with changes and a HIGHLY controlled situation, in extreme cases it could be a possible solution. But not one that I'd openly say "Try this" with. Too many newb owners would be using it as their first choice solution.
Posted By: eterrell84

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 05:57 PM

Originally Posted By: wclanton423
So what happens to the gliders that go through this introduction process and still do not get along?


good point! has this ever NOT worked? did you try this method again after it not working the first time?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 06:02 PM

Originally Posted By: Lucky_Glider
Originally Posted By: lovely1inred
I've never heard anyone call washing a wound out with saline hydrotherapy before. Sounds just like a name made up to make things sound bigger than they are. Wounds are cleaned and dressed - i. e. dried or bandaged - after the wetting. These gliders are not. I consider the practice being discussed here cruel and unusual.


As a point of fact hydrotherapy is a best practice established by veterinarians. So no, it is not just a made-up thing thank you. Here are some facts about it and also wet/dry bandage treatment that goes beyond the pedestrian view:

Hydrotherapy in the simplest terms is running water over an affected area. Hydrotherapy can be done with warm water. In some cases, hydrotherapy is done with sterile saline solution and introduced with a hermetically sealed plastic syringe.

Here are a few examples when we have, under orders from our vet(s), used hydrotherapy:

1. After wet/dry bandage treatment, we used hydrotherapy on the head and neck of Padme, a rescue who's mating wound was hidden and progressed to an abscess. That abscess when cleaned-out and drained by a vet caused the skin on top of her skull to slough off.

With wet/dry bandaging, a sterile wet guaze is stitched or affixed directly on the affected area. This stimulates granulation. Then dry bandages are woven in on top of that to keep out debris. After three weeks of wet/dry bandaging and daily changing of the gauze, we began hydrotherapy. Every day. It started with sterile saline and after three weeks, we were able to use tap water. Around the edges of the wound, the water was used to flush out debris and stimulate skin growth and granulation. It took 6 months for the skin to finally stretch and cover her skull. 6 months of hydrotherapy. That's not abuse. That's saving life. With water. Today, although single, she is a happy little glider and getting her head and body wet every day with water did not phase her. So no one can tell me getting a glider wet is abusive.

2. Eye infections. Hyrdotherapy is a common method to use when gliders' eyes become weepy or infected. It is crucial to keep the corners of their eyes clear of debris and puss if they are having eye problems. This is also true of post enucleation surgery when the eyeball has to be removed. One our our rescues Doc, from the dwarf colony, has had regular bouts with eye puss. Our vet has encouraged hydrotherapy and special eye drops for that. He gets all wet in the process. Another rescue, who has since been adopted, called Makudo had hydrotherapy with sterile water after his enucleation surgery.

3. Open mating wounds or over-grooming wounds. We have had occasion to use regular hydrotherapy on no less than a dozen or so gliders this past year who either came in with or received wounds from other members of their colonies. Depending on the size of the wound, vets may sometimes stitch them shut but with gliders, this often leads to abscesses which can be deadly. Many vets like the idea of the wound healing open. In this case, both honey treatment and hydrotherapy are common methods. Of course with the hydrotherapy they get soaking wet. Every other day for two or three weeks. But it's worth it because the wound heals well.

Gliders receiving this treatment for medical reasons recently were Dizzy, Ginger, Clyde, Darla, and Buttercup. All of them have been paired up with strange gliders after getting "kicked out" of their respective colonies - four of them with the "wet" method of introduction after other methods failed.

After having used hydrotherapy for medical reasons so successfully, under doctors' orders for so many times - it does not even occur to me that getting a glider wet is "abusive."

Your perspective changes I guess if you have experience with Hydrotherapy. Not all vets ascribe to it, just like all vets do not ascribe to honey treatments as an antimicrobial. But just because *you* have never heard of something does not mean it's made up. It occurs to me that if you do not know about a subject thoroughly, you *ask* for more information instead of just debunking it out of hand.



Ed, my mother is a nurse and I'm quite aware of what wet/dry bandaging entails. Just because human doctors don't use fancy names doesn't make me undeducated on the subject, and it DOES imply with the useage a certain amount of authority when you use technical terms. It is not, however, soaking an animal to the bone over its entire body. Which is what is being advocated here. You are comparing apples to oranges.
Posted By: Lucky_Glider

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 06:25 PM

Originally Posted By: eterrell84
Lucky_Glider, i understand your saying hydrotherapy is used and is very common, I TOTALLY AGREE. HOWEVER, i do not agree that water should be used in an "introduction" kind of setting. i think the gliders will live, and not be "physically harmed" from this. our main concern as a board (NOT speaking for anybody buy myself, just trying to say what i see)seems to be the stress it causes the gliders... and the bond with the HUMANS than will be strained bc of this.
im a firm believer of hydrotherapy, have used it myself before and its a miracle, BUT thats not what we are seeing here. i understand MOST things ARE a dispute when it comes to the glider community... but i think when board after board suggest this is inhumane, i would reconsider my actions. shock therapy used to be very common, does that mean we should still use it??? just an honest question i actually WANT you to answer please!


[kind of answering a few people's posts at once]

Remember, this method is not the first method of choice. I have used this twice on gliders wherein the other methods failed - after months of trying. And only with single gliders with problems.

Yes, it is true that I mentioned hydrotherapy and it is true that that is used in a separate context (that is treating an awful physical malady) and that it does not necessarily justify getting a glider wet for other reasons. I understand that logic.

So why did I even mention hydrotherapy? To establish, after having to do it so many times, that there is no evidence of ill effect after having done it. The glider Padme I mentioned took it for a whole 6 months every other day until the skin on her head grew back.

So let's think about that for a moment. Padme took Hydrotherapy for months and I could only wipe off her body, not her head and neck - and she was fine and continues to be fine. Unfortunately, we will probably have to keep her single and in sanctuary because another glider may go after the top of her head. Thank goodness she has not done that to herself so far. So far she seems to be an agile, active little glider with a good appetite. And she loves riding around on us when we take her out.

Now to try to keep the use of this method in context try to understand everyone that the use of it here is only after exhausting other methods and only to join two gliders where at least one has self-mutilation or over-grooming or stress problems. That is why my argument is based on the quality of the life of the animal.

Do they wiggle to get away from the water? Oh come on of course they do. Did my heart go out to them when they wiggled and when they sat in the cage wet before I put the pouch in? Yes. But it's for a greater good. For them to be finally happy and less stressed out.

So far, based on the condition of these particular animals, I am not having a problem rationalizing a few hours of a few individuals being wet. That is a small price to pay because it is more important to give them a (hopeful) lifetime of less stress and having a cagemate. And less over-grooming or less self-mutilation. These are the judgment calls you are presented with when dealing with so many rescued animals. We are thinking about their welfare and doing everything we can to give them a long and healthy life. The fact this one method is a lighting rod for controversy does not change my resolve to make sure their quality of life is paramount. If I am proven wrong and I find out it is hurtful, we will discontinue the practice.

Those of you who argue: "just pay more attention to the single ones" apparently have not witnessed first hand the horrible conditions over-grooming and self-mutilation can lead to. We have. Over and over. And we do our best to pay more attention to the single ones and also do our best to try more traditional methods, like the ones we have published -- but sometimes when you exhaust other methods and a glider is ripping its fur out down to the bare skin or biting itself over the stress of being alone -- your heart goes out to them and you are willing to try something different.

So please everyone try to keep our use of this method in context. It's about the quality of life of the animal. It's about recognizing that *not* joining single gliders who clearly need it - is what's abusive.

So people are polarized on this issue. I am sensitive to that. But I doubt the majority of the people complaining are dealing with the kind of suffering I am talking about with the lone gliders in question.

Now am I just being stubborn in the face of your "votes" on the glider equivalent of the peoples' court? No not at all. In fact, if the method does not work or the gliders that we joined start fighting and hurt each other (because they were "forced" and it just wasn't meant to be) then we will sadly separate them.

And we will tell everyone we did and that and that our hopes that the method was a good thing were dashed - and that we were wrong. But that is not the case so far.

Some anecdotal evidence it is working:

Now Dizzy has stopped ripping her fur out.

Now Ginger is starting to come out of her shell and will jump on to my hand where as before she was afraid of my approaches.

It is my observation so far that being together has lowered their collective stress and that they are enjoying a better quality of life.

Were they mad at me for getting them wet? Probably. Are they mad at me now that they have cage mates and their quality of life is much better? I don't think so.

This is not shock therapy. Or blood letting. Or using leaches. Or waterboarding for goodness sakes. This is getting a glider wet for a few hours and letting them run into a pouch. By the way, the light is just simulating daylight so they stay in the pouch to dry off.

To me, the evidence that these gliders are happier now is more important than people crying abuse! It's about them and their welfare, not people who want to cause trouble. The only reason I come to these boards is to share with humans what we do and what works for us - in the hopes it will help someone. I don't come here for your approval. I don't need that. I come here to share what we have learned, good and bad.

I remain open to speak to, give tours to, and welcome any individual, court-appointed inspector, federal USDA ACI, other rescue organizations, to some see what we are all about. Come see for yourself the condition of the animals, our records, audit our animal husbandry course, the dietary workshop, etc. In the end me getting some pitifully lonely gliders wet after all else failed is not going to have an impact on our ongoing efforts to save, rehabilitate and re-home animals. If we are proven wrong, we will admit it. Until then, maybe a few of you could find it in your hearts to give us the benefit of the doubt because four lonely stressed out gliders have another shot at a happy life. Think about it.
Posted By: Berg

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 06:33 PM

I really appreciate Ed coming here and clearly and rationally outlining the facts. IMHO there is far too much knee-jerk and emotional response to things like this on the forums, here and elsewhere. I am guilty of such a knee-jerk reaction yesterday, made before I figured out where the initial story came from and had bothered to go read the thread.

I understand the rationale and the behavioral basis underlying the method used as a last resort when all else has failed. Would I ever use it? No. Is it animal cruelty?. That depends. Not everything is black and white!

Quoting Ed...
===========================================
"We will continue to publish our experiences in rescue for the benefit of the community as we have for years. Not everyone will agree with us. If we find a method that works we will use it. If it fails we will admit it. We are an open book and share our experiences to enrich and educate the community. So we don't hide under a rock and cower because something we have tried may be controversial. "
============================================

I think LG deserves a lot of respect for this. If, for example, they had kept quiet about this and kept it to themselves, we wouldn't be having this discussion - AT ALL. After reading all that has been written so far, and particularly Ed's responses in this thread, I do not question their dedication to the gliders they deal with.

"Publishing", especially on forums such as this, is a two-edged sword. On one hand, you can share valuable experiences on what has and hasn't worked for you or others, whether it be about diet, bonding, or introducing gliders. On the other hand, the risk is that some newbie will take the first thing they read, without looking into anything further, and go with it. I can see that happening with this, and maybe it already has. All you need is some new owner clumsily trying this and posting it on YouTube, and then thousands of new owners see it. Unfortunately, there is no one authoritative source for glider information where someone can go and know that the information is accurate, vetted, based on sound science and practices, and includes appropriate caveats and cautions.

If everyone is honest about it, the majority of posts criticizing the method have been emotionally based. We cannot imagine our gliders being subject to this and see no need whatsoever to put our gliders through this. I have those same feelings. However, I'm not in LG's shoes and I don't have their perspective because I'm not in rescue. Of course, some of you are and have expressed your thoughts on the subject.

Opinions don't make something right or wrong. If person A strongly feels the only good diet for gliders is BML and thinks that feeding them anything else is akin to abuse, does that make me an "abuser" for feeding our gliders the Blended Diet? Maybe to person A, but not to me and lots of others. It's not a perfect analogy, but I hope it makes the point. There are some people who never agree with something despite being faced with mountains of evidence to support it.

Hopefully cooler heads prevail and that a rational, fact-based discussion can be had for everyone's benefit.
Posted By: gliderdad79

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 06:43 PM

Some posts will be edited as they quoted a post(s) that I will be removing as it did not adhere to the warning by Admin.

We can all say we feel something is abuse or we feel something is the wrong way. Honestly, non of us know what is the right way or wrong way of doing things we can only guess and do what we feel is best. Would I use or promote this method no, even as a last resort but that is my feeling.

Honestly I am tired of seeing all the "know it alls" make up their own rules on what is considered right and or wrong and make it the law of the land with gliders. This is not directed at anyone in particular, or the people who started this method or use people who use this method.

If you think this method is abusive and want to stop it, bring the documentation to the proper places and the law will tell you if it is abusive and if they will take actions. Beating a dead horse will get nobody anywhere.

The discussion is here, we are all adults and need to behave that way. No arguing, bickering, or getting uptight about it. Talking things out, being open minded is the best way. Being closed minded and believing what one feels is the only way and bickering to prove a point does nothing.

Again, from what I read I would never use or suggest. If I feel its abusive, thats my feeling. It does not mean the law thinks it is!

Lets keep this thread a productive one, not a bickering or one that breaks the rules and warnings or actions against your account will be taken. We will not allow anyone to bully their point or beliefs nor will we allow people to try and get this thread closed or take it off topic.
Posted By: Marsupial_Mayhem

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 06:46 PM

I cannot and will not accept this as a humane method of bonding animals. I would never sell to anyone who would attempt this either.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 06:50 PM

It is not getting a glider wet that is the problem here. It is getting multiple gliders wet, putting them together into a cage with other gliders that they DON"T LIKE and forcing them to stay that way under a bright light until they become too exausted and to frightened to fight anymore and they submit to their fate. A fate they did not choose.

Ed, I've read your blog and it is just unbelievable to me that you would recommend this method. I also read the thread on FB and saw those photos.

The method that you are adovcating as a "last resort" to introduce single gliders IS being used to combine cages of gliders into larger colonies for the sole purpose of making life easier for the OWNER, not the gliders. Your blog does not in any way state this should be a last resort method used only on single gliders that are languishing and suffering, over grooming or self mutilation. That is irresponsible on your part.

I have had gliders over 12 years. I have had hundreds of rescues through my doors in that time. I have currenly 40 gliders living here. Some rescues, some I purchased and some born here. I have seen the extreme cases of neglect, abuse, malnutrition, over grooming and self mutilation. PLEASE do not try to make it seem you are the only ones that have seen this in gliders. Kate has. Mary certainly has. Bourbon has. Val has. Connie has. Elena has. Jen has. Almost all rescuers that have been taking in rescues for more than 6 month has.

Currently 7 of my gliders are LONE gliders and I would love nothing more than them be with cage mates. And I'm working on that at THEIR pace. But forcing them to live where they are choosing NOT to live to me is flat out cruel to them. None of them are in isolation. They all have neighbors and I hope the day will come that they CHOOSE to share houses with those neighbors but I would NEVER consider forcing the issue by this method.

As a long time glider owner, rescuer, breeder (limited in my case) I long ago realized I have a responsibility to be VERY careful about what I post and to be sure to explain WHY, in detail, what I do as well as WHY this should not be done by just anyone for whatever reason. This is because many new owners look to those with the years of experience for guidence and often will jump in head first without considering all aspects of the situation. I have a responsibility to post something along the lines of "new owners should not try this". "This is not a normal every day method" or whatever. I could not live with the guilt of something happening to a glider to cause harm or death because I was irresponsible in how and what I post.

I have been part of "experimental" methods and such with gliders. Most long term owners have because it has been necessary. That is how we have learned and gotten to where we are now with gliders.

But here we have a situation where someone (you) with a reputation as a rescuer with experience and knowledge has posted about a method used as a last resort to better the life of INDIVIDUAL gliders and because it was not fully explained that this should only be used under extreme situations with single gliders, it has been taken by new owners and used in a sad and disturbing way to take cages of multiple gliders (not singles but gliders that already have cage mates) and put them together into one big colony just to make life easier on THE OWNER not the gliders.

Their defense of this is Ed does this.

For me, I will never advocate this method. I do believe it is cruel. I believe it is emotional torture. I believe that getting them wet and keeping them wet for extended periods of time (the hour you are suggesting) is putting them at risk of health issues. I believe that putting them in situations where their only option is to seek comfort and companionship from a glider they have previously shown NO interest in befriending, is cruel. I believe that the long term effects of this will cause more harm than good.

I have colonies. I have had quite a few colonies over the years and I KNOW, I have EXPERIENCED, I have OBSERVED how colonies can blow apart. How the dynamics of colonies are always changing. How colonies can live together in harmony for YEARS and then all of a sudden totally blow apart. I have also seen gliders who will live with another glider simply because they have no choice and I've seen some of those same gliders exist but not thrive because of their forced situation.

The gliders in your care are subject to your control. They are NOT wild gliders that have a choice to leave or change tree holes.


On a quick note about hydrotherapy. I have used it on many different animals including horses, dogs and gliders but hydrotherapy is not getting an animal wet and keeping them wet for an hour. Dogs get hydrotherapy where the wound is, not their whole body and they get dried off the best they can be after. Same when I have treated mating type wounds. The wound gets the hydrotherapy, not the whole glider. It takes about 5 minutes and then the glider is dried off and kept warm until they are completely dry.
Posted By: Marsupial_Mayhem

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 06:53 PM

Originally Posted By: hwh4ev
the videos that are being shown to the public do not help gliders. case in point.
on my facebook page yesterday a friend tagged a lady (cant say her name on here) with a picture of her putting a glider
into a tub of water. cold or hot i do not know.

the point is this- you show videos of this nature and other
people will take it and think they are improving it with this kind of abuse.

it is abuse period. if a lone glider is that sad and needs a buddy they wouldnt need to take their shower or whatever because the humane way would work. takes time.
if you dont have the time then you need to downsize.

disgusted in detroit.
nancy
p.s. mouthwash with or without alcohol is poison. gliders lick it. i will sign a petition to try to shut you down. you do more damage then you are willing to admit. bonding? the next poor soul that gets one of your glider with this treatment will never have a good bonding relation. you will prob. get it back in time. what is the point.
Mouthwash also burns in your mouth too. The skin of the genitals are much more sensitive. How do you think they feel after the mouthwash is put on them there?

I would say, you are causing the animal pain. I do not understand how this could not be called abuse.
Posted By: Jos

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 07:02 PM

I think I have come up with a suitable way to rationalize this. As people are seeing it as black and white and it clearly is not. I commend Ed for trying his best to make life better for these highly stressed gliders. So here is the example of how the rules of "inhumane" care so easy to be opinion and emotionally based.

My wolfdog Ivory, who has sadly passed away, was a case of SEVERE separation anxiety. To the point where she would HURT HERSELF if she was left home alone. She would pull out her fur, leaving bald spots, chew on her paws and tail, and was all in all miserable. Added to that was the fact that she was extremely afraid of men, my ex beat her before I rescued her from him you see. So what did I do? I forced her into situations that made her uncomfortable. I'd sit her on a leash and let strange men feed her treats and pet her head. I'd put her in a room, close the door, and leave her there for 10 minutes then come back, leave and go for 15 minutes, then come back to show her that I would return for her. Did she like this? No. Was she clearly upset by it. Yes. Did it PAIN me to have to force her into situations she'd rather hide from. Yes. But it was in her best interest, was it not? A fearful dog that's HURTING herself, ripping out her fur (She was bald on her hindquarters for MONTHS) and crying whenever I left her alone is not a happy dog. Is that abuse? That I wanted to manipulate her behavior so she was healthier? I think not. The same goes with this, IMO. I would never do it, that's me and I hate seeing animals miserable, but if it was put before me that I could do this "wet" method or my animal would basically destroy itself... I think, with as much as I love my animals and as much as it would kill me to make them miserable for their well being, I would consider it.

I would do the same for any animal that was clearly hurting itself for one reason or another. Sometimes you need to show a little bit of hardness because you love them. I love my animals, and making them do things they don't like isn't something I enjoy. I didn't enjoy putting Ivory in situations that made her afraid and made her cower and tremble, but she was a better dog for it. She stopped pulling out her fur, she stopped chewing on her feet and tail, she stopped crying for hours on end when I leave the room. I don't view taking an extreme case and fixing it with some unpopular method as abuse. If that was the case then anyone who forces their animal to do something they don't want to do even if it's for their good is abusing their animals, and that is something I just don't agree with. Take from that what you will, but I do not believe Ed is completely wrong in his method, as much as I disagree with wetting them I also disagree with letting them pull out their fur and chew on their tails. What is the lesser of the two evils? A momentarily unhappy glider who will be better for it, or a glider that will worry itself to death?
Posted By: Jos

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 07:03 PM

(double posted)
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 07:14 PM

Jos, I understand your point with the dog, I do. However, dogs are not prone to severe life threatening illness from stress AS EASILY as gliders are. While gliders are not as fragile as many believe they are (they are tiny and cute but they really are more rugged than we like to believe) BUT... we do know that stress with gliders can cause life threatening illness.

Using your dog as an example, you did what you needed to do to stop your dog from self mutilating. We do the same to gliders when we put them in ecollars. But anyone that has dealt with a glider in an ecollar will tell you that their two concerns are. 1. Will the glider get out of the collar and do more damage and 2. how badly is this stress going to hurt them?
Most gliders will drastically slow down or stop eating and loose weight when in an ecollar. It isn't because the collar prevents them from physically being able to eat. It is because of the stress.
Posted By: Jos

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 07:27 PM

I totally agree with you Dancing. I'm merely trying to point out that while we don't always agree with methods, sometimes it isn't the worst thing that could happen to the animal. I'm all for not stressing an animal out, I hated stressing out my dog.

As I said before, I wouldn't use this myself. I don't believe in leaving an animal wet for a length of time. But I can also understand where someone who has no other alternative to save a SMing glider may look to this. I do NOT think just anyone should be doing it for the benefit of the owner, and it should not be open information for just anyone IMO.

mostly I'm playing devils advocate here.
Posted By: xSwtxSugaX

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 07:51 PM

I feel like im starting to read the thread over again on GG. Dont get me wrong, everyone had wonderful points, but its rather repetitve when it comes down to certain people. So lets chop down some of the massive text to get to the points.

Ed I commend you for coming and defending yourself with a professional manner. Your point would be that it is a last resort for gliders who are experiencing over grooming and depression from being alone for so long. That a little water does not harm them and its for there best interest.

Everyone who doesnt agree with this method, I think there main point is the getting wet for a full hour, and the fact that the information given in your journal isnt specified as last resort.

Im sure people can add more points to it and im sure somebody will, but coming from MOST of the posts that is what Im gathering.


Now I def dont agree with the method, but Ed I can see where your coming from.

As for the people comparing giving baths to there dogs and cats there is nothing even close in these two actions. As I have stated before. I give my cat a bath, because she needs it, but I know and can see how upset she gets during this process. I dont leave her in there for an hour. I can tell you right now what she would do. She would flip out... to the point she would probrolly make herself sick, and be mad at me for a lloonnggg time. Giving my cat a 5 min bath is equivalent to wiping my glider down with a washrag.


As I dont think that Ed is being abusive or cruel I do think the method is stressful and in some cases can lead to sickness in a glider if not done exactly right. Even if done right stress CAN cause certain parasites or sickness, and Ed you should know this.

And finally, I dont agree with this information being released in the way it has. I dont care how long youve tried it for or how many people you tell that you yourself trust, posting it in a journal or a thread can lead some very stupid people to try some very stupid things. You should know this as well Ed. People take information meant for one thing and easily apply it to there situation (example: taking down 3 colonies to 1 or 2) to make there life easier. And half of these people are doing your method wrong. That is what I dont agree with.

As well as the mouth wash thing. Should I poor some mouthwash down my pants for a test run and let everyone know how it feels? I just really think that would be uncompfortable, and like I said before.. you know a certain percentage of people is taking the information wrong. Im sure a few people have done this with alcohol mouth wash.

Ok. Im done smile Now just to let Ed and anyone else know none of this was in a mean manner, just trying to make a point. If anything I said came off that way I apologize
Posted By: xSwtxSugaX

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 07:52 PM


(double post)

Sorry smile
Posted By: hpyhwn2003

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 08:10 PM

Let me start by saying I'm NOT out to "get" anyone. Tho I am out to try and get people to understand that this wet method has more risks to it then benefits. There are medical and mental risks to the gliders that are having to endure this procedure. I've now heard over and over again that the reason this is being done is because the gliders involved are sm-ers and this method will get them into a cage with another glider thereby stopping the sm behavior. Sounds great doesn't it? If it works this well in theory it could be a God send. As a rescuer myself I understand the issues that led to the method being tried. However, this method causes undue stress on the gliders which can cause many health issues, won't list them again as Dancing has already done a great job of that in a prior post on this thread, and the method may be causing mental stress as well. So I asked if by chance was this method being used under the supervision of a vet? That question ws never answered. Here's was my reason for asking. If it ws being done with a vets knowledge then at least the gliders involved would also have a vet that knew whay they may be ill and what to do to help them. If no vet is involved then I feel the health risks are just too great. So simply put I have no issue with ED and Gail. I feel that they have done very good by gliders for years and their experience shouldn't just be thrown away. Now understand me clearly if I sign any petition at all it will ONLY be a petition that lists the reasons we feel this method shouldn't be used asking that they not use this method. That's it! Nothing more nothing less. Do I want a good experienced rescue closed? NO! We all make mistakes in life. I'm asking that we learn from them and not repeat them.

Now onto the insinuation that I'm out to cause trouble. I'd hope my behavior and reputation speak for themselves. With any post I have made I have never attacked anyone. I have however repeated that I don't condone the method and will never reccommend it's use. I have also pointed out that there are major reasons that ths method can lead to health or mental issues for the gliders enduring it. But I have attacked no one because that is just not who I am or what I am about.

Lastly, I have also seen it posted that those who oppose this method are hiding. Look at my signature my website is linked and my phone number is also listed. I am certainly not hiding from anyone.

In closing I want to repeat I am not against the people just the method.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 08:27 PM

My head is swimming and I don't want to go back and look for the post, but someone posted that the shower is not supposed to be running ONTO the cage. Before it dissapeared, I saved one picture on my computer of this "method" being used. It was one shared on another venue, and nobody told the person that they were "doing it wrong". In fact, other similar pictures are being used on another glider board to show the proper way to do it. In the picture I have, you can CLEARLY see the shower water is falling directly into the cage of gliders.
Posted By: hpyhwn2003

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 08:53 PM

Originally Posted By: Lucky_Glider
Now am I just being stubborn in the face of your "votes" on the glider equivalent of the peoples' court? No not at all. In fact, if the method does not work or the gliders that we joined start fighting and hurt each other (because they were "forced" and it just wasn't meant to be) then we will sadly separate them. And we will tell everyone we did and that our hopes that the method was a good thing were dashed - and that we were wrong.


From all that I've heard of you and what you do I truely believe that you will in fact do as you state here. This is all that I was "fighting" for and for this I thank you.

Don't get me wrong tho I still do NOT condone it's use by a new unexperienced owner nor would I, who is an expereinced owner and rescuer, ever use it.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 09:00 PM

The comparison of bathing a dog vs. this wet method of intros? There is no comparison, sorry. My dog doesn't like water true..but when its bath time, I try and "sidetrack" him by giving him treats with one hand and talk to him while washing with the other. It's a pain and I get water all over me but my dog is NOT restrained...and if he actually wanted to clear the tub and run out of the bathroom...he can. He is also not forced to stay wet...he shakes, gets me even more wet, but my hubby hands me a warmed towel and he gets rubbed down and dried off...immediately.

And since other animals are much much larger than gliders, they are probably not going to stress as fast. Not that they don't stress, I think they can just handle it better.

I still do not agree with this method...and my opinion is..its cruel.

My Lethe was a single kept glider for almost a year before I got Tippy for her. There was no depression, no self mutilation, no negative behavior from her at all. She got just as much attention as my other cages, and she is in fact my only bra baby so I was able to have her on me most days (not at work). Every glider is different. So to say that ALL single kept gliders will harm themselves, stop eating, get depressed is not factual.

And like I said earlier...if a glider shows agressiveness towards another glider people want to house together...clearly this animal is trying to get his point across...he does NOT want to be with the other glider...so find an alternate course of action...not wet both gliders and force them to live together.

IMO that isn't good for the gliders at all. Take their feelings into consideration. They are animals, but they are not stupid.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 09:01 PM

The comparison of bathing a dog vs. this wet method of intros? There is no comparison, sorry. My dog doesn't like water true..but when its bath time, I try and "sidetrack" him by giving him treats with one hand and talk to him while washing with the other. It's a pain and I get water all over me but my dog is NOT restrained...and if he actually wanted to clear the tub and run out of the bathroom...he can. He is also not forced to stay wet...he shakes, gets me even more wet, but my hubby hands me a warmed towel and he gets rubbed down and dried off...immediately.

And since other animals are much much larger than gliders, they are probably not going to stress as fast. Not that they don't stress, I think they can just handle it better.

I still do not agree with this method...and my opinion is..its cruel.

My Lethe was a single kept glider for almost a year before I got Tippy for her. There was no depression, no self mutilation, no negative behavior from her at all. She got just as much attention as my other cages, and she is in fact my only bra baby so I was able to have her on me most days (not at work). Every glider is different. So to say that ALL single kept gliders will harm themselves, stop eating, get depressed is not factual.

And like I said earlier...if a glider shows agressiveness towards another glider people want to house together...clearly this animal is trying to get his point across...he does NOT want to be with the other glider...so find an alternate course of action...not wet both gliders and force them to live together.

IMO that isn't good for the gliders at all. Take their feelings into consideration. They are animals, but they are not stupid.
Posted By: Jos

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 09:44 PM

Just because YOU don't restrain your dog, doesn't mean that no one does. To elaborate.



Again. I'm playing devils advocate here. I'm trying to show you how absurd it is to say that "their way is wrong" just because YOU don't do it. I'm not saying that the 'wet' method is right, not even remotely. Nor am I saying that I would do it. I'm pointing out that pointing fingers because you don't do it is just as wrong as doing something that could be harmful to the animal. Do you get what I'm saying?

Edit: I do hope no one takes what I say personally. I'm just trying to prove a point about pointing fingers.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 10:13 PM

I think even talking about bathing dogs is confusing the issue. Dogs are not gliders and are not nearly as prone to stress issues. It was JUST last week that a rescuer LOST a glider at the veterinarian's office due to a case of severe malnutrition and the stress of being in the vet's office pushed that little girl over the rainbow bridge. Mind you, this rescuer was not waiting about to go to the vet - she went straight from picking the gliders up out of the reported situation, directly to the vet, and because she was already so weak, she went into respiratory distress and passed with a vet on site.

Malnutrition is a common problem in rescue gliders and I really think the stress of this type of method must be taken into consideration, especially with rescue gliders.
Posted By: Lucky_Glider

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/10/11 10:32 PM

I appreciate the passion, sense of morality and good points everyone is making. This has been a real learning experience for us - and we try so many things over the years to improve the quality of life of gliders. We also share everything we have tried. For those of you who are outraged by the method, I completely understand. I can only tell you so far that the animals in question are displaying much improved behavior now that they are together.

Now try to appreciate that with a large volume of rescues, there is quite often an occasion where animals are kicked out of colonies or come in solo with all kinds of problems associated with being single. It makes me cry when we try so desperately to nurse them to a healthy state and then in doing introductions nothing seems to work - even the traditional (slow and more natural) forms of intro. We've published a lot on those methods and they work sometimes.

I don't know how many introductions any of you individuals have actually done. We have attempted over 100 and have a lot of experience with it. It works only half the time with the time-honored slow intro / bedding / cage swapping method. Even after repeated attempts.

Now to just give up on a single who sits their wasting away and over-grooming and running in circles - I say to allow that to continue without trying something else is abusive. This is a quality of life issue and so many people are concentrating on a few hours of discomfort. Please have a sense of scale and put years upon years of hopeful peace and tranquility in the balance. Please.

When intros do not work, and you've seen the SM and over-grooming and you are just torn up over it - believe me your perspective changes and you are willing to try even something that looks radical to improve the quality of the gliders' lives.

For the record, in the method I have used twice:

1. We do not use a shower or hose to spray them down. With the four individuals in question, I held them and let tepid water in a small trickle run on them and worked the water into their fur with my hand. Yes they wiggled and they probably hated it. I felt terrible but there was a larger purpose in this and for their own good in the end (admittedly only so far...)

2. I turned the heat up high in the room I used. It was about 75 degrees in there. They were NOT shivering and shaking and going into shock from cold. They were not cold. If they showed any signs of shock I would have aborted the procedure and not tried it again.

3. The mouthwash I used was the no-alcohol kind. I can see dropping this altogether from the protocol if in fact we ever feel compelled to use the wet method again. None of the four reared away, snitted, crabbed, screamed, ran in circles or in any way showed discomfort at this part.

4. I fed them in the morning, 12 hours later than what they are used to. Now if there was a nutrition problem or a glider was really skinny or pitiful, I would have fattened them up first before trying this. But all of our gliders eat like pigs and get a very well balanced, high protein diet so none of the four were going to pass out or have a problem having their meal delayed.

5. Stand vigil. If you are going to try this, or any other introduction method, we advocate staying close to them so you can hear and see them the whole time so you can break them up if they fight and so you can make sure they are OK. In both cases, after they jump in the pouch, they have groomed each other and rubbed all over with the fleeces in the pouch and got dry pretty quickly.

What we do *not* recommend:

1. Doing this method just for the "convenience" of combining cages with gliders who are perfectly happy and healthy

2. Spraying them with a hose or high pressure shower, etc. It's uncomfortable enough. I think it's better to hold them and handle them to get them wet.

3. Continuing the method if there is shivering, or shaking or seizure or any other outward manifestation of medical danger.

A few of you have made the point that the information on this subject should not be released in the public domain or on YouTube, or where "Newbies" can see it. Yes that is the double-edged sword of publishing glider care info. I've been dressed down for sharing ratio info and involved nutritional info because it "scares" away newbies and makes them think they are going to kill their gliders if they don't feed the way I say. I have been dressed down for speaking out against color breeding and taken to school by all the breeders that hate me for talking about how breeding for color is a distraction, etc. I've been threatened by mill breeders for the series of YouTube videos we published on debunking mill breeder lies.

So you are talking to someone who has taken very strong stands on issues that could be characterized as animal rights and animal abuse issues. Does that make me a hypocrite? I don't think so. My rationale for using this method has nothing to do with earning money from gliders, or stirring controversy, or just enriching myself. It's just for the gliders and improving their condition. That's all. My motivation is completely pure. Now maybe I am just wrong and if it ends up this method fails the four in question I will be mortified but I will crawl back to you all with an "I'm sorry I was wrong."

So you see, I (we) are no stranger to controversy. We just speak our minds like all of you do and publish what, in our judgment, may save a few glider lives. It's really that simple. This method in fact is not for everyone just like doing stunts you see on tv is not for everyone. But that is not going to keep us from sharing what we know, what we observe, and what we believe. We're in it for the gliders and in it to improve, even if it is controversial, the quality of their lives. I will go up against any official, any ACI, any agency and all of you (respectfully of course) and defend our practices if I believe the gliders benefit. When people come to visit (inspect) us, audit our medical records, check out our gliders and other animals, no one ha ever concluded we are "abusing" gliders. Our position is that it's abusive to allow a lone SM glider to spiral into depression and death. So I am living in a grey area maybe but no hypocrite. There are often exceptions and I believe this method (the way we are doing it anyway), used for the right reasons and under the right circumstances can be a life-saving Godsend for some solo gliders. And until you have really seen the sadness and sickness I am talking about you really don't understand, although I completely understand the gut reaction people have to this. I wish you all, and all of your animals peace.
Posted By: WintersSong

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/11/11 02:08 AM

Ed, while I don't at all approve of your method either, my real issue with this method is how others are using it.

I've seen at least two posts about people using it to make their life easier. The gliders these individuals used it with had cage mates, and were NOT unhappy by any means -- the owners just wanted them all in one cage. I get that desire to have them all in one cage, but this method is NOT justifiable in those cases.

Also, the people who posted about using this method seemed to do it quite a bit differently than what you describe.

A photograph shows the gliders in a teeny tiny cage, being sprayed by the shower hose. The poster of the photograph comments that she left them in that situation for an hour.

A video shows the gliders sprayed by the shower hose.

The mouthwash.. YOU say non-alcoholic, however the actual instructions for this method (that are published on another board) do NOT say non-alcoholic.

I have an issue with this method being published on a site that attracts a great deal of newcomers -- many of whom seem to be looking for the easy way out. Now that this method has been noticed on this other forum as being a "success" more than a failure, I am wondering how long it takes for people to say: "hey, try the wet method of introductions!" any time a newbie comes in and asks for advice on wet introductions.
Posted By: WintersSong

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/11/11 02:25 AM

Also,
I have an issue with mouthwash being used in general.

This may have already been said here, but at the risk of being repetitive..
Mouthwash is something even WE aren't supposed to shallow. It says right on the bottle. Why then would it be okay to put even a minuscule amount on a glider who is going to groom themselves (using their mouths)?
Posted By: Kimberlyann

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/11/11 02:32 AM

Originally Posted By: hushpuppy
.

Kimberlyann, I think you totally missed the point of my sarcasm, which is...getting an animal wet is not animal cruelty in any law book anywhere on this planet. Animals in the wild do have a choice and they usually choose to go out in it instead of going hungry.


You say I missed the point, but you have missed the whole picture. You are saying it is ok to get a glider wet, but we are talking about the whole process of the wet introduction here. It's more than just getting a glider wet, that is the tip of the iceberg!

And the practice of leaving the shower on with the cage in the tub for an hour as some have suggested, I feel is the equivalent of waterboarding. I don't think that you could tell a prisoner of gitmo, it's just water, people get wet all the time....
Posted By: WintersSong

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/11/11 02:44 AM

Originally Posted By: hushpuppy

I think you totally missed the point of my sarcasm, which is...getting an animal wet is not animal cruelty in any law book anywhere on this planet. Animals in the wild do have a choice and they usually choose to go out in it instead of going hungry.


I don't understand how we can compare wild animals to our pets. The wild animals are exposed to the elements, whereas ours have been sheltered from them. To me, that's a pretty important difference between the two.

Also, I think that there is a large difference between a wild animal getting caught in a rainstorm (from which they can seek shelter), and forcing them into a small hospital cage and hosing them down with the shower hose. Quite a difference, IMO. This is, of course, not what Ed is saying he does, but it IS what has been documented by photographs (now deleted, though I believe Robin saved one?), and video (if the video is still there).
Posted By: Lucky_Glider

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/11/11 01:58 PM

Some kind person had the presence of mind to ask some really good questions of LGRS (in private) and I am going to post the questions here and elsewhere because everyone should benefit from the intelligence of the questions and (hopefully the answers).

1. Have you discussed this with your vet? I would want to hear how the vet felt about the method.

Strangely, no. In fact as I look back on it, I probably should have because we confer with a variety of vets on most health issues with gliders. Instead, I just used my own judgment after meeting face-to-face with Terry (Kazko on GG) and hearing of his experience. Clearly, we chose a *variation* of the method he used.

That said, our long-time and best vet, Dr. Christine Kolmstetter has given us advice on joining or re-joining singles back into their colonies after surgery or other medical problems. And she has weighed-in on introductions in general. Her advise has been, even in the face of "breaking quarantine" that it is better to do whatever you can to join lone gliders because of the stress of being alone and their overall quality of life. She has explained to me that she can fix a bout of Giardia easily, but that the stress some animals endure from being alone is far worse. Clearly, not all singles self-mutilate, run in circles and SCREAM (not crab) in the corner when you try to approach them. Sadly, we have a lot of experience with this.

2. How bad were the gliders you used this on? SM/depression/etc.

Great question. With Dizzy, she was (is) a serial SMer. When she was surrendered (family in NM who's kid moved off to college and stuck mom and dad with her gliders) her mate had died two months earlier. During that time she stripped all the fur off of her head and one whole side and parts of her neck. Parts of her were red with scratch / cuts. We successfully joined her with Bonnie, an over-groomer who was initially on chlomipramine to curb her picking at herself. After a month of being together, both of their fur grew back to almost normal. Sadly, 9 months later, I found a giant open wound on Dizzy's back. We separated them. We nursed Dizzy back using hydrotherapy, honey treatments, and Baytril. When she healed, we then joined her with Darla, one of our pets (hand raised from joey). Darla had been kicked out of her colony and had a huge wound on her back but it did not seem to be a mating wound. During her convalescence, she was not herself - very lonely. Dizzy being a "sanctuary animal" and not about to be adopted out - presented us with a problem because there were no other suitable gliders to put her with because we did not want to consign that animal to sanctuary by joining it with Dizzy. So we considered joining Dizzy with our pet Darla. In this particular instance, our motivation for using the wet method was Dizzy's condition was deteriorating rapidly. In our judgment, the slow method of introduction was... too slow. I got them both wet in my hand, put them in a hospital cage for one hour, then put the pouch in. They jumped in, groomed each other, and within a few hours they were dry. I transferred them into a clean cage with clean bedding in the morning and fed them. So far they both seem happy and they are sleeping together and Dizzy has stopped ripping out her fur. This was strictly a timing issue.

In the case of Ginger and Clyde... Ginger was very stressed out and frightened, hiding when we fed her food and treats, and screaming when we cut her nails or tried to console her. She was kicked out of her (too large) colony of 9 as the low-on-the-pecking order glider. She received a giant bite which was partially necrotic. We took her to the vet and followed with Baytril, open wound hydrotherapy and honey treatments. It took over a month for her to recover. Since then we have tried other traditional methods to join her and she attacked anything that moved - including Clyde. Clyde is the son of Bonnie from the "Tank" colony the namesake of which has since passed away. Clyde, after years of being with his three sibling males, was ejected after his father died. Bonnie had long since been separated owing to two mating wounds so we never re-joined her after that. We had tried several traditional introductions with Clyde and he too, like Ginger, displayed the Alpha/Aggressive behavior and bit other animals. Unlike Ginger, Clyde do not display high amounts of stress, but the prospects for Ginger were grim given her behavior. I used the (modified as above) method on them. Afterward, Clyde did chase Ginger around the cage for the first night but he did not bite her. I was ready to throw in the towel thinking the method was "just forcing something to happen that was not meant to be." But then the second night he stopped being aggressive and the third they slept in the same box. Since then they've been fine. And now Ginger behaves like a "normal" glider. Not screaming and running away, being interactive, running on her wheel, and approaching us when we have treats for her. A whole different glider.

3. What other methods did you try and for how long?

We have various methods we have used and we have taken the time to publish them in an "introductions guide." One method is the time-honored "swapping bedding / swapping cages / moving cages closer" method. Over the years, we have tried this method many times but we have found that it only works 50 / 50. We have also tried the "put them in a common pouch around your neck while they are sleeping" method. That has worked maybe a dozen times. We have also done the "put them in a scent-free neutral playground" method and that is hit and miss. We have discovered, strictly through observation that no matter what (non-wet) method you try, if a glider decides to be dominant or does not like the scent of another glider - he attacks. Maybe 50% of the time. Doesn't matter what method. We believe it is all about scent and dominance. That's why, under particular circumstances, we think (so far anyway) the wet method can be used when the other methods have been exhausted.

4. Are you willing to alter the method if a vet objects? Or at least hide it from public so new people don't kill or harm gliders attempting to use the method?

Yes, so long as the vet is a glider expert and understands glider behavior. We seek a lot of counsel from vets and other glider experts. In the end, this is a careful judgment call. And we feel we acted in the best interests of the gliders in question to improve their quality of life. Especially Dizzy and Ginger. If they could talk they may say to you "Boy we hate being wet but that was only a few hours. Now I have a friend, I'm much happier and more stress-free than before."

With regards "hiding it from the public" that is a big ask. We for years have gone out of our way to publish our findings on medicine, behavior, diet, etc. and some of that has met with controversy. But this is a good question. I for one have spoken out against showing videos on YouTube of gliders sitting on dogs' or cats' backs - because so many gliders are maimed or killed by cats and dogs. So for that kind of "publishing" which we don't see any redeeming value in - we object. But with something like this method (as modified) the purpose of publishing it is in the hopes that single gliders who are wasting away and SMing could be saved. So it's a double-edged sword. I am open-minded to "hiding" it but the other thing is that's not the nature of what we are about at LGRS. We have always had it as part of our charter to share our experiences with the glider community.

But... if we do in fact discover that the joinings we have done were "not meant to happen in the first place" and that they are ticking time bombs and the two pairs hurt each other and the whole thing fails.... Then I will be happy to say so and then withdraw our condoning it under certain circumstances.

I would also like to post an appeal for all of you who are considering a "petition." This is a democracy and for you to do that is certainly your right. But please consider a few things:

1. We have stated our reasons for trying this method (as we have modified it) as being righteous and in the best interests of the particular animals in question. The prospects are GRIM with certain lone gliders so the alternative is not an option unless we can find a better one. My moral and ethical compass is right on track. If I am proven wrong, that under these particular circumstances it will blow up and unravel in a few weeks or months - I will retract my support of it and admit I was wrong. But I will NOT admit I was wrong to try it. You come here and look a glider in the face that is self-mutilating and tell her we are giving up trying other methods. Try that.

2. I find it ironic that some people would mount an offensive against our 501(c)3 without so much as a phone call or some kind of direct dialog with us to understand what we are doing, what we are not doing, and why. I've said it before that we are an open book and unabashedly and regularly publish our findings, good or bad, so others can learn. This is one of those. Will we change our position. We may in fact change our position. We will strive to learn more from vets, from you, and from our gliders. We will share this learnings.

3. I would love to see all the breeders get together and "petition" themselves to set aside 5% of their breeding income (if you have income) and donate it to 501(c)3 glider rescues. Now that's something to put your energy into. To feed, house and rehabilitate some of the gliders you crank out that are surrendered. Maybe LGRS would not be a recipient because you don't agree with our practices. But that's the kind of energy and activity that should be more worthy of this community - versus making our humble rescue operation out to be villainous. (I am not calling anyone out in particular - this is just a general appeal)

Thank you all for your patience and understanding and intelligent questions.

We continue to be, at the service of unwanted gliders, and seeking to improve the quality of their lives.

Many thanks, Ed @ LGRS

P.S. We don't think a shower is the "right" way to get them wet if in fact you are compelled to get them wet for some legitimate reason. We have not done that.

P.P.S. The mouthwash thing, even though we used the non-alcoholic kind, could easily be dropped from the protocol. We are sensitive to everyone's feelings on this issue and although we did not observe any behavior that would indicate it hurt them, there is no reason to stubbornly hang on to that if it adds no value. Thank you all for your feedback on this.
Posted By: xoerikae

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/11/11 03:06 PM

would you mind conferring with more than one vet, and letting us know? id love to hear what theyd have to say smile
Posted By: carolinasuggies

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/11/11 04:53 PM

Ed thank you for your clarification's! Although I still feel that there is nor has there ever been a need for this method and I do believe it is cruel along with inhumane and would hope that any new owner would NEVER again be told they should use this method! I commend you for every rescue you have helped and for you sharing your opinions and experience's but I feel this is one experience that should not have been put out there for unexperienced glider owners to see!
Posted By: wclanton423

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/11/11 05:06 PM

Personally, I do not think this method should be made public. There's to high of a chance of a newbie seeing this, not following other options, and not following the directions that something horrible WILL happen to their gliders. A vet should have been consulted no matter how many years of experience one may have with gliders and those who are against this method should consult your vet to hear what they have to say.

Ed, if the community has numerous vets that say this is abuse, wrong, and causes more stress, would you stop using this method?
Posted By: Sherri

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/11/11 05:36 PM

I know that I have already heard from one vet on the subject of this wet introduction and his exact words were "this is crazy and cruel and abusive".

Those words came straight from Dr. Tristans mouth.

And I believe that if a vet doesnt agree and endorse something than I'm not going to either.


I moved from in town to out in the country and when we moved my dogs barked quite a bit during the day since they werent use to all the new sounds.

I had a neighbor try to tell me how to break them from barking, even though I knew given a little time for them to get used to things they would stop. And they did.

The neighbor had used this treatment on his own dogs when he used to have dogs and it worked for him.

Everytime my dogs started barking I was to go out to their kennel and hose them down. That they would get the idea and learn to stop barking. Needless to say my neighbor and I never saw eye to eye the whole time we lived there. I was apalled by his idea at how to get dogs to stop barking.

As I am apalled at this wet introduction! Its just not something healthy to do for the gliders health or mentally.

I would love to hear from other vets as well. And I hope to soon.
Posted By: hpyhwn2003

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/11/11 05:39 PM

I am posting here today my response to a post made over on GG. I am only doing it because I feel that everyone here should also be privy to my response. I am only posting my response and not the post that led to my response as that would violate GC rules, at least I believe they would. So If you want to know why I felt led to respond as I did you'll need to go there and read that thread.

This is what I posted:

hpyhwn2003 Joey IL, USA 66 Posts
Today : 11:04:53 AM

@Catman: Glider Central closed the original post becase it went the same path this one did. It was not much better than a bash fest. As they don't allow that there they closed it and later reopened another thread warning everyone to be civil. I agree with what they did and will continue to stand by them in the decision they made. I question why the same thing wasn't done here on Glider Gossip by the owner. On to your next post: I can not and will not try to tell why others are upset as I am because I am not them and have no idea what they are thinking. I can tell you why I think they feel this way tho and that is that the method can be dangerous to a glider's health and well being, the effects of the method haven't been truely seen yet (that will only show with time), and some of the steps used in the method are cruel and in fact according to most animal protection laws are illegal (for instance with holding food). Just so it's clear I also feel that the method needs to stop being used now. We have voiced our concerns to Ed as he is a rescue that by his own admission has this method twice. He has replied that he will continue to use the method unless the intros fail and the gliders need to be seperated. That is sadly unacceptable in our eyes and we feel it will also be in the eyes of the proper authorities. We feel the issue is not wither or not the method is a success but rather that the steps of the process are cruel and inhumane. No one wants a good rescue with years of helping gliders closed. What we'd like to see happen is that he'd agree to stop using the method until he can first change some of the steps to make the steps humane and second determine if there are any ill effects to what has already been done. That is all we're asking for. Is that really too much to ask?
Posted By: hpyhwn2003

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/11/11 07:03 PM

Well GG is hopefully going to do something about the thread there as this is what I get when I popped over just now
Viewing of this Topic is not permitted until it has been moderated.
Please try again later

All I can say is yay.

Edited: Well it appears that I was wrong about them actually taking the time to ensure their thread is civil because I can view the thread as long as I'm not logged in. If I am I get the above response. Tho they have not banned me from the site yet they are not allowing me to view this thread.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/11/11 07:55 PM

Yes, they pulled it and now there are no posts expressing the hows and whys this "method" is cruel to gliders.
Posted By: kyro298

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/11/11 10:11 PM

It wasn't "pulled". It was flagged enough times (by members) that it was removed for admin review, as with any thread that's flagged enough times. I'm sure it will be back. I also don't know why you think you'd be banned?

GG runs it's site the way it wants to, GC runs it's site the way it wants to, LGG runs it's site the way it wants to and on and on. For the 4 years I've been around, that's never been different and probably never will be. There are people that prefer to be a part of different forums for different reasons.

I assume, as with GG, when a thread is pulled here, it's moderated or at least reviewed, before it's returned to the public to see. It's only been gone a few hours.
Posted By: kyro298

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/11/11 10:16 PM

edit**Not sure why this double posted
Posted By: Lucky_Glider

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/11/11 11:31 PM

Originally Posted By: Sherri
I know that I have already heard from one vet on the subject of this wet introduction and his exact words were "this is crazy and cruel and abusive".

Those words came straight from Dr. Tristans mouth.

And I believe that if a vet doesnt agree and endorse something than I'm not going to either.


I moved from in town to out in the country and when we moved my dogs barked quite a bit during the day since they werent use to all the new sounds.

I had a neighbor try to tell me how to break them from barking, even though I knew given a little time for them to get used to things they would stop. And they did.

The neighbor had used this treatment on his own dogs when he used to have dogs and it worked for him.

Everytime my dogs started barking I was to go out to their kennel and hose them down. That they would get the idea and learn to stop barking. Needless to say my neighbor and I never saw eye to eye the whole time we lived there. I was apalled by his idea at how to get dogs to stop barking.

As I am apalled at this wet introduction! Its just not something healthy to do for the gliders health or mentally.

I would love to hear from other vets as well. And I hope to soon.


Are you equally appalled at the state of an SMing glider who rips out all of the fur on her back? Are you equally appalled at a depressed and stressed out glider that just runs in circles at the top of the cage and screams when you try to interact with her? Does that appall you? Please I once again beg all you people judging us to take into consideration the circumstances in which we used the (modified as we said) method in order to improve the quality of life of these *particular* gliders.

I respect Dr. Tristan and what he said but when he sees self mutilation and depression it's just an office visit in most cases. That is unless he takes them all home with him and feeds them and cares for solo SMers every night.

Had I spoken to him, I'd tell him about the animals in question, I'd tell him all the other methods that failed and ease him into the radical experiment of "wet" and tell him the outcome. Who knows maybe he'd say the same thing, but maybe not. It may all depend on the approach.

Did you tell him that an SMer we had is no longer ripping our her fur? Did he get that? Did you tell him we had exhausted other methods? Or did he hear:

"Some crazy jerk is hosing down gliders to force them together don't you think that's horrible?" (as I have stated before we did not spray them).

I propose a healthy balance self-righteous outrage and being appalled with the facts at hand and how the individuals in question have at least, for now, benefited greatly from this method.

Here is what we are going to do:

We are going to wait to see the outcome with the two pairs. After a few months, I will share my *findings* with more than one vet and see what the consensus is. Now that the well is poisoned with Dr. Tristan I hesitate to darken his doorstep having already been villainized.

I reckon I will have to talk to other vets before the hysteria of the moment polarizes all of them so no one will want to hear from us.

I don't want to declare too much success beyond the initial coupling at this point because in our experience introductions can fall apart as long as several weeks to a month afterward.

If it does not work out, I will tell you all like I promised.

And all of you can then judge me (again) and that's OK because I do not publish all the things we publish to get your "peoples court" permission. I post relevant news on what we are doing with gliders in the hopes that through people who read the post, it may in turn benefit a glider. That is my motivation. This is just another circumstance in which we have shared (albeit unpopular) information in the hopes that other single, depressed, SMing gliders can be saved.

During this waiting period, I will not use the method again. It so happens that at the moment the other two singles we have are more or less sanctuary animals that for medical reasons can't be introduced so for the time being we will not feel compelled to use the wet method.

Meanwhile, for those of you who feel very strongly about wanting to help these rescue gliders feel free to contact us, visit us and take some home. Dizzy and Darla are not adoptable but Clyde and Ginger are. We also have plenty of other healthy gliders to choose from. Pairs and big colonies too.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/11/11 11:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Lucky_Glider

4. Are you willing to alter the method if a vet objects? Or at least hide it from public so new people don't kill or harm gliders attempting to use the method?

Yes, so long as the vet is a glider expert and understands glider behavior.


Dr. Tristan is clearly a glider vet that understands their behavior. Are you altering the method?
Posted By: xoerikae

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/11/11 11:53 PM

im not ready to force ed to change his ways. i want ED to talk to dr tristan, and i would love to see BOTH sides of the conversation, preferably not in a copy paste form.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/11/11 11:56 PM

Quote:
I respect Dr. Tristan and what he said but when he sees self mutilation and depression it's just an office visit in most cases. That is unless he takes them all home with him and feeds them and cares for solo SMers every night.


You say the lot of us are jumping the gun and are too quick to make assumptions based on us not knowing you or the inner dynamics of your rescue but....you're doing the same thing with the above statment regarding Dr Tristan.
Posted By: Lucky_Glider

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 12:20 AM

Originally Posted By: buttercup
Quote:
I respect Dr. Tristan and what he said but when he sees self mutilation and depression it's just an office visit in most cases. That is unless he takes them all home with him and feeds them and cares for solo SMers every night.


You say the lot of us are jumping the gun and are too quick to make assumptions based on us not knowing you or the inner dynamics of your rescue but....you're doing the same thing with the above statment regarding Dr Tristan.


I stand *partially* corrected. Recognize that I qualified my comment by saying: "That is unless he takes them all home with him and feeds them and cares for solo SMers every night." But apparently that qualification was insufficient to escape your scrutiny. I will try to be more careful in my qualifying statements in the future.

The point I was trying to make is when someone is enlightened on a subject he or she is often influenced by the vitriol of the speaker. That is why I hesitate to "darken his doorstep" now that he has made a polarizing statement prompted by an outraged constituent. I will solicit the input of other vets now who I will carefully explain the circumstances to.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 12:33 AM

Some of my observations and opinions.

I am consistantly drawn to your assumption that we are all new to this or have no experience or that none of us have dealt with large numbers of gliders or self mutilators or over groomers or depressed gliders or neurotic behavior in gliders or that we have not spent countless hours standing vigil over gliders in order to help them get physically healthy as well as emotionally and mentally healthy.

I am constantly amazed that you believe that all lone gliders will suffer from that solitary life.

I am also amazed that you are promoting a method that has proven to be used OTHER than the way YOU would use it and all without seeing the danger of that promotion and endorsement.

I am saddened that you have not blogged about any of this and further explained your limitations (of it being used for "at risk" single gliders instead of just to combine multiple cages for the benefit of the owner).

I have been struck time and time again about your mentionings of being 501c3 when that status has zero to do with the care of gliders and is merely a tax status. You have made it seem like you believe that only 501c3 rescues are legitimate.

What I don't see is any consideration of how or why this is viewed as cruel and parts being unlawful (mouthwash and with holding food). In my opinion, I see a spotlight that is casting bad light in a direction that can have serious ramifications for gliders.

I don't see where you have given any consideration to the concerns of other glider owners other than to try to justify your own actions. And that's fine, it is your right.

I have concerns for the pair you have up for adoption as they could be placed at any time and you would not be there to monitor their situation and act to resolve any disputes these two gliders may develope (which I believe they will).
Posted By: Lucky_Glider

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 12:37 AM

Originally Posted By: lovely1inred
Originally Posted By: Lucky_Glider

4. Are you willing to alter the method if a vet objects? Or at least hide it from public so new people don't kill or harm gliders attempting to use the method?

Yes, so long as the vet is a glider expert and understands glider behavior.


Dr. Tristan is clearly a glider vet that understands their behavior. Are you altering the method?


Jessica if you look just above your post you will see a fairly detailed account of what I intend to do. I not intend to solicit the input of vets who have already had their well poisoned by people who have not represented our circumstances. Now if everyone runs out and "campaigns" with well known glider vets ahead of me talking to them you have all stacked the deck against me. I shan't engage in such high school antics.

And if you read further you will see that I have already consented to alter the method regarding the mouthwash. And if you read further back you will also note that I did not use a shower hose on them but got them wet in my hands with a slow trickle of warm water.

So let's get straight the "method" I used:

1. Held gliders in hand, trickled warm water on them and worked the water into their fur to make them wet. dabbed non-alcohol mouthwash with a cotton swab on cloaca.

2. Put them in small hospital cage for about an hour in a 75 degree heated room.

3. Introduced a pouch with fleeces in it where they went to dry off and groom each other.

4. With three sides of the cage draped, put light on the other side to encourage them to stay in pouch. (they did).

5. Outfitted and cleaned big cage with toys, pouches, wheel, box, etc.

6. Put gliders in big cage in morning. Fed them in morning and again at regular time at night.


The two resulting pairs from our two tries at this are so far doing very well. One has stopped ripping out her fur and the screamer/circler is acting normal.

So no, there was no hose or shower spray, no cold. No gliders experiencing hypothermia shivering in the corner with icicles forming on their noses. They may have been disoriented and uncomfortable for a few hours but in my view, we probably saved a few gliders from a life of misery and depression and for Dizzy SMing - having exhausted more time-honored methods that we have been teaching and publishing for years.

So let's get it straight what we did do, what we did not do, what our motivation was and what the initial outcome has been. That's what I would have told Dr. Tristan had I got to him before an outraged appalled constituent did. I'd rather start fresh with a vet who's well does not get poisoned first. As you can imagine I am loath to say who they will be at this point.
Posted By: Cora

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 12:42 AM

This is the great state of Texas and animal cruelty laws are a little different here. unless these animals are being starved or dying in their own filth/carcasses(sp?) then there is not any petition in the world that is going to help your case! Sorry guys, been talking to lots of people. there was talk of getting those laws changed a few years back but I dont know what came of that. animals are livestock here and not held with as much regard as other states.
I have no opinion in this matter at this time but would like the tour you have offered. Some of my friends might want to come. no trouble, just a tour. We are a friendly bunch really. I dont mind cleaning some cages while I am there if I can bring my steam cleaner and natural cleaner from suncoast, just takes a short time per cage and kills bacteria! smile
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 12:43 AM

You keep saying that she was self mutilating. If she has wounds, she should not have been placed with another glider.

If she is only over grooming, then a companion may help. But it should have been a companion of HER choosing. To do other wise might stop the behavior for now as I'm betting she is in emotional shock still over what happened. But what are you going to do if/when it returns?

And have you ever seen photos of my Reep?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 12:44 AM

So basically, because Dr. Tristan is not your vet of choice, you are disregarding his input in the matter. Got it.

Would just like to say, I've never spoken to Dr. Tristan personally but as a vet that consults with other vets across the county, he is highly respected in his chosen field.

Tell me then, what does Dr. Christine Kolmstetter say when you list to her, your steps of method to introduction, and do it impartially as you say that an "appalled constituent" influenced Dr. Tristan.

Oh, and constituents are VOTERS not glider owners.

I asked a very simple question and I think you are taking this far, far too personally and using degrading comments that are not necessary.
Posted By: wclanton423

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 12:52 AM

BTW, an e-mail was sent to Dr Tristan and this is all the email said:

"Here is a new way of introducing gliders...
Share your thoughts about it with me please"

There was no bashing, just EXACTLY what was posted on your blog.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 12:53 AM

Quote:
did he hear:

"Some crazy jerk is hosing down gliders to force them together don't you think that's horrible?" (as I have stated before we did not spray them).



You should give him a call...ask HIM what he was told or asked. I don't think he'd lie about it, he's a professional.
Posted By: carolinasuggies

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 12:53 AM

They reopened the thread on GG...Well people can read it but no one can comment!
Posted By: Lucky_Glider

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 01:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Dancing
Some of my observations and opinions.

I am consistantly drawn to your assumption that we are all new to this or have no experience or that none of us have dealt with large numbers of gliders or self mutilators or over groomers or depressed gliders or neurotic behavior in gliders or that we have not spent countless hours standing vigil over gliders in order to help them get physically healthy as well as emotionally and mentally healthy.


I never said you were all new to this. I have stated the perspective we have as a rescue. I have to state my perspective in the odd chance that *some* of you may in fact not have the same perspective and are not rescuers. Clearly you being an old-timer at this may take some offense at the implication, but you are not the entire audience. Most of what I say is pointed at people who *don't* know things. That is the purpose of posting on these forums - not as a mutual admiration society of people who are already experienced.

Originally Posted By: Dancing

I am constantly amazed that you believe that all lone gliders will suffer from that solitary life.


You are misquoting me Teresa. NEVER have I said that *ALL* lone gliders will suffer from that solitary life. What I have said is the simple truth - that solo gliders have a tendency towards overgrooming, stress, depression and some self mutilate. NEVER did I say that *ll* lone gliders are doomed to a pitful life. I DID say that Dizzy seemed to be consigned to that life based on her bare back and that Ginger was an emotional mess. But I did not say that of all of our single gliders did I? No I did not.

In fact, I have blogged and posted on little Oscar who is 10 years old, who came to us 8 years old having been a single his whole life. So we do in fact have experience with single gliders who have "made it." He was introduced to two other gliders this past year and is very happy. We used a traditional method of introduction by the way.

But the sad fact is most singles who have been single for more than a year - the ones we have had experience with anyway - are not happy campers.

Originally Posted By: Dancing

I am also amazed that you are promoting a method that has proven to be used OTHER than the way YOU would use it and all without seeing the danger of that promotion and endorsement.


I think you are saying that I have created ambiguity in promoting the "wet" method and was not careful enough to qualify the way I changed it or why. And that by not qualifying it I was in fact endorsing the "fire hose" part of it. Well that's true but now that I have poured my guts out here and on GG and detailed everything for you and everyone else to judge, there is not much more to say. Anyone having the presence of mind to read everything I have said should see pretty clearly that we did things a little differently.

I have also addressed the issue of the "double edged sword" of sharing and publishing experiences and how it is a judgement call on some things. In retrospect, I wish there was a way of sharing things like this only with the "people who are not a danger to themselves and their animals" but I just don't know how to sort it out. I have been admonished on this site in the past for "scaring new people" about diet and ratios so I just quit posting here. I am only here now because of the PR nightmare I created by sharing, once again, our findings. I don't think I will stop doing that but I don't think I will go out of my way to share things here initially because too many of you jump all over me whenever I come here. you guys are just too tough of a crowd.

Originally Posted By: Dancing

I am saddened that you have not blogged about any of this and further explained your limitations (of it being used for "at risk" single gliders instead of just to combine multiple cages for the benefit of the owner).


I am saddened that if you are such a fan of my blog that you wouldn't just say: "Hey Ed, how about adding some disclaimers or such." Gee if you read my blog so much why wouldn't you just post a comment or two instead of editorializing from afar?

That said, I have peppered this post with all kinds of qualifications, restatements, and a few concessions. I think I have been pretty accommodating Teresa.

Originally Posted By: Dancing

I have been struck time and time again about your mentionings of being 501c3 when that status has zero to do with the care of gliders and is merely a tax status. You have made it seem like you believe that only 501c3 rescues are legitimate.


Gee if you were so struck time and again why did you wait until now, when we are under fire to say anything? So now that I am kind of down and being kicked from all sides you come out with things you didn't like about us all along that should be thrown in to the pile-on? Wow.

To us it is not merely a tax status Teresa. Let me explain why. After Hurricane katrina, the Federal govt. cracked down on 501(c)3 status filings and it was harder to get the designation. There were 30 some odd pages that had to be submitted including a lot of background information on us personally and of course background on the operation. Our motivation in getting the 501(c)3 was to make it easier for us to a) get grants, b) get free booth space at adoption events, and c) give some relief to people who donate to us so they can write off donations. And in the process of getting those things the 501(c)3 is an entry point for discussions that is actually on the checklist for people to talk to us. So it's not just a tax status - it is a point of due diligence for outfits that insist you have it to cooperate and help the rescue. None of this implies that we are "better" than rescues who do not have the designation Teresa. It only implies more scrutiny befalls us because we put ourselves in a position to ask for things that 501(c)3 is a prerequisite for. So no, it is not about how we think we are "better than" as you seem to imply here - it is about opening ourselves up to more scrutiny so we can get more money (or save money) to help the gliders. Geez, you really are looking for ways to think the worst of us aren't you.

Originally Posted By: Dancing

What I don't see is any consideration of how or why this is viewed as cruel and parts being unlawful (mouthwash and with holding food). In my opinion, I see a spotlight that is casting bad light in a direction that can have serious ramifications for gliders.


Teresa, in an earlier post I had already conceded that we can drop the mouthwash from the protocol. So if you don't see that as a consideration you simply didn't read my concession. Regarding the witholding of food, this is only a delay until the morning. I have said (maybe on the other site but not here) that I would not try this on skinny, emaciated gliders but only on gliders I had already fattened up. The offering of food during introductions is a big mistake and I have written about that for years and in fact have published advice on that before. Delaying their feeding time until the morning is not that big of a deal for a once-in-a-lifetime event that will improve the overall quality of their lives.

Originally Posted By: Dancing

I don't see where you have given any consideration to the concerns of other glider owners other than to try to justify your own actions. And that's fine, it is your right.


That is not a very charitable or accurate comment. I have gone out of my way to carefully explain the rationale, benefits and hopeful outcome of what we have done here. I do that not just to justify my own actions but also to respect peoples' comments and to respectfully answer them. For example, if I did not care about your feelings or what you say, I would have just blown you off. But I am taking the time to answer your questions which should be consideration enough. I must admit all of you are really starting to wear me out and I don't have much more to say. So if I don't show up here for a while please understand that it is not because I don't care or don't want to "give consideration" but because you have all just worn me down to a nub. Which is what seems to happen whenever I make my yearly pilgrimage to this site.

Originally Posted By: Dancing

I have concerns for the pair you have up for adoption as they could be placed at any time and you would not be there to monitor their situation and act to resolve any disputes these two gliders may develop (which I believe they will).


Actually, that is a good point, and I respect your insight very much. As I stated in the post above, I intend to monitor them closely for a few more months and then weigh in with a few vets before using this method again. So during that period they will not be adopted out. Now, out of respect for your comment and to show consideration for you as a glider owner, I have put a note in Ginger and Clyde's Petfinder profiles indicating that we will not place them over the next few months until we have had a chance to monitor their just being joined.
Posted By: Lucky_Glider

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 01:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Dancing
You keep saying that she was self mutilating. If she has wounds, she should not have been placed with another glider.

If she is only over grooming, then a companion may help. But it should have been a companion of HER choosing. To do other wise might stop the behavior for now as I'm betting she is in emotional shock still over what happened. But what are you going to do if/when it returns?

And have you ever seen photos of my Reep?


She was SMing when we got her. She stopped when we joined her with Bonnie. Then when she developed a wound, we separated her from Bonnie not knowing if it was SM or Bonnie but we suspected Bonnie. After being alone again she ripped out a lot of hair on her back but no open wounds. But she kept going so we tried this method to join her with one of our pets and she stopped.

No I don't think she is in emotional shock over being wet for a few hours honestly. She has stopped overgrooming and she is snuggling with Darla and eating well and running on her wheel and doing fine
Posted By: Lucky_Glider

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 01:57 AM

Originally Posted By: lovely1inred
So basically, because Dr. Tristan is not your vet of choice, you are disregarding his input in the matter. Got it.

Would just like to say, I've never spoken to Dr. Tristan personally but as a vet that consults with other vets across the county, he is highly respected in his chosen field.

Tell me then, what does Dr. Christine Kolmstetter say when you list to her, your steps of method to introduction, and do it impartially as you say that an "appalled constituent" influenced Dr. Tristan.

Oh, and constituents are VOTERS not glider owners.

I asked a very simple question and I think you are taking this far, far too personally and using degrading comments that are not necessary.



Oh please you guys. This is just a pile on for goodness sakes. You want me to call him, OK OK OK already I will JEEZ - but I will wait until after I have made more observations on the pairs. No he is not my vet but I already told you I respect his opinion and that I recognize he has a good reputation.

And yes, to the other person who says he's a professional I know he's a professional.

The word constituency by the way goes beyond politics and is perfectly suitable to describe people of influence in a one-to-many relationship.

With regards Dr. K I am not sure why you ask because I have already stated above that I did not confer with any vets on this thing ahead of time and I have already been duly admonished for that so I see little utility in grinding through that point over and over.

With regards me taking this far too personally - what can I say - I ain't but human
Posted By: Lucky_Glider

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 02:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Cora
This is the great state of Texas and animal cruelty laws are a little different here. unless these animals are being starved or dying in their own filth/carcasses(sp?) then there is not any petition in the world that is going to help your case! Sorry guys, been talking to lots of people. there was talk of getting those laws changed a few years back but I dont know what came of that. animals are livestock here and not held with as much regard as other states.
I have no opinion in this matter at this time but would like the tour you have offered. Some of my friends might want to come. no trouble, just a tour. We are a friendly bunch really. I dont mind cleaning some cages while I am there if I can bring my steam cleaner and natural cleaner from suncoast, just takes a short time per cage and kills bacteria! smile



Wow finally after threats of petitions, admonishments, vitriol, some kind soul is actually reaching out to offer us some help. You are very kind. Please email me at ed@luckyglider.org and we will work out a time for this.
Posted By: Lucky_Glider

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 02:10 AM

Yep that is also our observation. We have had colonies in rescue for over a year and then all of the sudden somebody gets kicked out or hurt.

Buttercup was kicked out and wounded recently from her colony after four years of peace.

And Darla - again from hers after four years.



So I guess if four years from now Clyde and Ginger hurt each other our little experiment was a failure? Not if a few hours of discomfort bought them four years of happiness.
Posted By: Cora

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 02:20 AM

Sent you an email. Thanks!
Posted By: gliderdad79

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 02:26 AM

Last time we are going to say, stop with personal belief attacks. It doesn't matter what one or two vets say, its the law that will classify whats right or wrong. PPP has a vet saying what they do is right! Am I comparing Dr T to PPP vet absolutely not, just an example of beating a dead horse over apples and oranges here.


As stated I do not believe in this method and I will state that as well as saying I wouldn't suggest it at all. I will not however beat it into someone that what they are doing is wrong, you will never get anywhere trying to do it that way.

If a tried method proves to work for some you will not convince them its wrong. Laws being made and invoked is what changes peoples ways, and only sometimes. When are people going to learn, I see this happening over and over and over.

Stop standing up a screaming everything that isn't done to your satisfaction is wrong. Yelling at them does nothing, it doesn't help discussing change and maybe even postpones developing newer and better methods. If someone turns and yells at you, your gona get defensive and close up why do people feel they are any different.

I am not nor is GC siding with anyone, we are grown ups and can have civil discussions without the hissy fits and name calling. If you want to continue posting in the manner of breaking the rules, bullying, etc you will be getting no less than a 30 day vacation from GC plan and simple.

Now why not use this thread and time to discuss what can be possibly changed so different methods can produce the same results.

How about the community start trying to find new inventive ways of doing things for GLIDERS and improving things instead of sitting around waiting to pull out their pitch forks and light their torches for a change!
Posted By: carolinasuggies

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 02:38 AM

It seem's to keep going in circles I think since the "method" will obviously continue to be used & recommended maybe as a community we should all stop fighting and start working together to help ED tweek the method to be safer and more humane! That is the only option I see here! I for one am completely against it but if it is going to be used anyway I would much rather it be safer!
Posted By: wildlifeangel

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 02:50 AM

OK... on the new direction, I was wondering... Could menthol or some kind of other odor be used to mask their scent... if that is indeed necessary on occasion (which I am not totally convinced of). Like I tried to explain on GC about the way that raccoon rehabilitators use the menthol on their noses during introduction.

And maybe the wetness could be avoided... like dab some honey on them could provide sufficient distraction (or something... not sure what would actually work or if honey would be a terrible idea).
Posted By: carolinasuggies

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 02:53 AM

I was thinking maybe vanilla scent something along those lines maybe feed them directly before maybe a mister instead of a faucet if they absolutely need to be dampened (and i mean only dampened not soaked) and making sure the room is VERY warm I dont see the need in soaking the cage if its nuetral! Not sure if honey would be a good idea that may cause a fight but it is something to consider!
Posted By: xoerikae

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 02:55 AM

I totally agree Alicia! My conditions:
1) MORE THAN ONE Vet's directions and contributions
2) Something non-toxic being used for scent - vanilla, etc
3) A well heated room.
4) The cage wasnt supposed to be soaked, but some have.
Posted By: BindiAndScrubbie

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 03:00 AM

Apparently this should have been posted as a link so I am reposting this from Val, in regards to this method:

http://thesweetspot.forumotion.net/t1112-wet-introductions
Posted By: suggiemom1980

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 03:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Lucky_Glider



Regarding the witholding of food, this is only a delay until the morning. I have said (maybe on the other site but not here) that I would not try this on skinny, emaciated gliders but only on gliders I had already fattened up. The offering of food during introductions is a big mistake and I have written about that for years and in fact have published advice on that before. Delaying their feeding time until the morning is not that big of a deal for a once-in-a-lifetime event that will improve the overall quality of their lives.

I am a rescue in Southern Indiana. When I do intros and reach the point of them being in the same cage for the first time, I place an abundance of food in various locations in the cage, before they wake up, to prevent fighting over food. It seems to me, that forcing them to wait all night for food and not getting it when expected, would make them even hungrier and more prone to fighting over food.
Posted By: carolinasuggies

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 03:10 AM

My thought's exactly thats why I suggest maybe atleast feeding them immediately before the "method" starts!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 03:36 AM

Alicia, I tried letting it be known in the original thread here on GC that MISTING was the ORIGINAL way to do this. I think my post got over looked.
dunno
Posted By: WintersSong

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 03:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Megs
Alicia, I tried letting it be known in the original thread here on GC that MISTING was the ORIGINAL way to do this. I think my post got over looked.
dunno


It was evidently lost in the repost.. but, although you noted that that is what the creator of the method told you, it should be noted that the actual instructions (posted on the creators blog) for this method do say to soak the gliders.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 03:41 AM

Ed, I want to first thank you for holding off on the adoption of that pair. I do strongly feel they need time to access whether the introduction is going to last.

A reason for this is, waiting to see what happens when she goes into heat. This is a critical time for newly paired rescues and determining if they are indeed a good match with each other. And just the first heat cycle isn't usually enough if there is a past history of one or both gliders being injured (from possible mating or dominance issues). Hormones can wreak havoc on gliders.

So I do thank you for holding off on that. That has eased some of my concerns a great deal.

You asked why I don't post comments to your blog. Simple answer is because it is a my space blog and I would have to register with my space to post. Last time I registered on my space I got a virus on my computer and had to completely wipe my hard drive. Since I have really outdated software, it takes up to two weeks to get everything back up and current and running again and I often loose so much (like all the photos I lost with the my space virus). If it were not for that, I would have.

501...I do understand the process and the headaches involved as well as there only being a potential for any benefit from it beyond being able to write off some of your expenses. (the grants are still VERY hard to get etc). I do commend you for going through those headaches just as I commend the others that have but in one of your posts, you did make ME feel like you thought much less of those that have chosen not to go that route. Not going that route makes us no less legitimate or dedicated as rescuers. Frankly, the gliders don't care about any of our "money" concerns. They just want love and good food etc. If I read your post out of intended tone, I apologize.

Quote:
No I don't think she is in emotional shock over being wet for a few hours honestly.


This I quoted because I want to address this specifically. It is not just about the gliders being wet for a couple of hours. It is about the whole situation being so foreign to them. It is about being soaked, put in with a glider she had made clear she didn't want to be with, had a strange and foreign scent put on her that she had no way of know if it was something to hurt her or not, left in a cage until she was to tired (and stressed) to care if the only refuge was with that other glider so long as she could get warm and dry. And then left with a light on all night so she would stay in the pouch. It is being treated in such an unfamiliar way that she was (again, in my opinion) bullied into accepting what she had made clear she didn't want. To me, this screams emotional stress and submitting to it, emotional shock.

It may work in the long run but it only furthers her reasons for not trusting.

I see that type of emotional shock on gliders brought to me quite often and it is the hardest to help a glider over come. I have one little girl here now, Syah, who when she came here a month ago was so emotionally shocked that when we would put our hand in her cage to give her food, she would duck and cower like she KNEW she was going to get hit and had given in to the inevitable. She didn't try to run, hide, crab or bite, she just cowered and waited to be hurt, knowing she couldn't avoid it. That behavior is the saddest I've ever seen from a glider. Total resignation. Now, a month later, she eagerly comes to us for treats and seems to crave the gentle pets and ear scratches. We still have a long way to go with her.

I so desperately want her in with a companion so she can learn not to fear us. But that too will take some time. For now, she has neighbors and she has taken a fancy to one little boy, Seti. She just isn't ready to fully accept him because she was hurt and severely bullied by her previous colony. Their first face to face meeting went well for the first 5 minutes until Seti crabbed and she BOLTED away as fast as she could and it was obvious she was terrified. It is like she has PTSD. She experienced such bad things that she is shell shocked and like a war vet will duck from a back firing car, she reacted to his crabbing.

I do not doubt you want what is best for the gliders. I understand the desperation that a rescuer can feel when they only want to make things better for those gliders. I just don't believe that subjecting a glider to such extreme methods is the answer.

And Eddie, I am not attacking, or at least that is not my intention. I am trying to understand and trying to express my concerns.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 03:45 AM

Quote:

I am a rescue in Southern Indiana. When I do intros and reach the point of them being in the same cage for the first time, I place an abundance of food in various locations in the cage, before they wake up, to prevent fighting over food. It seems to me, that forcing them to wait all night for food and not getting it when expected, would make them even hungrier and more prone to fighting over food.


Connie, I agree. This has been my observations as well. Even some of my pairs that have been together for years will act agressively if there are not more than one feeding station in the cage.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 04:37 AM

Sara, you're right.
But that blog is also new. The method ISN'T new.

As I told another person in private when questioned, I am unsure if the creator is the one who 'revamped' the method, or if Ed did.

Maybe Ed can shed some light on this?
Posted By: carolinasuggies

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 04:39 AM

I know MOST of us are against this method I am but it is going to be used (obviously) like it or not so can we not as I have already asked work together as a community to atleast improve the method?? I understand not wanting to feed them together the first night (hence the suggestion to feed them directly before) and then maybe again first thing in the morning! I do believe there are way's to make this method "more" acceptable! I do believe however that vet's should be consulted as well!
Posted By: carolinasuggies

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 04:41 AM

I do believe ED stated he modified the wet method!
Posted By: WintersSong

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 04:42 AM

Originally Posted By: carolinasuggies
I do believe ED stated he modified the wet method!


That is my understanding.

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't Ed stated that he decided to try the method only after speaking with Terry and hearing how it worked for him?
Posted By: carolinasuggies

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 04:44 AM

Yes I am fairly certain he said he met with Terry personally and decided to use the method after that but that he (ED) had modified it slightly
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 04:54 AM

Here's what I meant.

Terry created the method. It initially was to be a MIST not a soaking.

Then Terry changed it to what you now see in his personal blog on GG.

Ed has used his own version of the method.

So... Who made the changes first? Terry? Ed?
Posted By: carolinasuggies

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 04:56 AM

That I do not have the answer to!
Posted By: WintersSong

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 05:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Megs
Here's what I meant.

Terry created the method. It initially was to be a MIST not a soaking.

Then Terry changed it to what you now see in his personal blog on GG.

Ed has used his own version of the method.

So... Who made the changes first? Terry? Ed?


I am not sure, and quite honestly, I don't think it matters.

I am more concerned with the fact that what is out there now is to SOAK the gliders.
I am more concerned with the fact that people are (or have, I suppose) soaked their gliders for introductions. I am concerned with the photographs and video that I have seen displaying this.

(yes, what is shown in the videos and pictures, and what Terry outlined in his blog, is not what Ed is doing specifically -- but this isn't all about what Ed is doing. It's about the method in and of itself).
Posted By: carolinasuggies

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 05:14 AM

Which is why we should try to help make this method that is going to be used one way or the other safer for the glider's involved! There is no other way around it so it's best we all work together to improve as much as possible! Make sure new owners know better than to try this method as much as possible! Make sure it is ABSOLUTELY a last resort and done in a safe and humane way!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 05:59 AM

I SUPPOSE it's irrelevant, but I also think it's important to know WHY the initial method was changed.

Did they find the initial method to be useless? Or did something happen that's being left out?

I believe we ALL have the right to know every last detail of this.
Posted By: carolinasuggies

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 06:03 AM

I agree Megs but I don't think we may ever know the answer to that question!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 06:24 AM

I have been watching this thread closely for a few days now and have seen many passionate posts for and against the topic, which is understandable with so many different views. I agree with previous posters above that maybe it is time to come to a compromise of sorts since everyone is standing firmly on their beliefs and views. From what I managed to read, I have the following concerns:

1) The well-being of the gliders involved in this method physically and mentally
2) The method being used for the wrong reasons (not as a last resort) or drastically (not following the method correctly and making it more of a danger)
3) The negative affect this could have on the glider community

Bottom line is, I don't agree with this method and from what I have seen many people don't. And because so many people disagree with it I can easily see this being used against the glider community. For example:

"By contrast, almost all the internet “expert” websites and “chatrooms” out there nowadays still rely on very old - and extremely out of date - care and dietary information that we purposely stopped using MANY years ago. These sites simply REFUSE to embrace any new advancements - and instead resort to spreading false rumors and innuendo about anyone who disagrees with them; all the while passionately clinging to the claims that “their way” is the ONLY way, and that doing anything else will harm - or even kill Gliders."

This is what PPP says about us as a community already and they have far worse things to say on their other websites about chatrooms and forums. My fear is that the wide sharing of this method is ammunition for a PPP or other mill breeder's gun, and not necessarily by exploiting this method but merely blowing it out of proportion, especially with so many disagreeing with it. As a community our goal is to always educate new owners, current owners and potential owners on proper care for their gliders. For potential owners researching, the conflicting information out there is confusing enough, between Youtube vets, and sugar bear websites. Now they may stumble on select sites and see pictures and videos of this method and possibly be horrified into maybe getting a glider from PPP and using their care instructions. Whether community members disagree or agree with this method does not matter, but the majority of the public will not stand for it and it will without a doubt shed some negative light on all of us, not just those practicing this method. Due to this, I honestly believe that maybe this method should not be widely shared through videos on youtube or detailed instructions on websites. Maybe it is a method that is better shared within a community, between friends or PMs in SEVERE cases ONLY. That way we don't have to fear a negative light, or an inexperienced owner doing this method incorrectly. As far as improving the technique goes, I do not have any ideas, and that should probably be for experienced vets to decide, because if a vet approves of a different and safer method of drastic introductions it will surely be more widely accepted throughout the glider community and the public. I am still eager to see everyone's suggestions however. smile
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 06:58 AM

Ed, I saw it asked but not really answered and am curious.

How long did you try other methods of introductions with these gliders before trying this one?
Posted By: JillMarie

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 08:49 AM

Teresa, I like many of the points you made.

Ed (the Ed that runs the show here on Glider central) thanks for being so level headed and trying to get us all re-directed rather than shutting down this thread.

I mentioned this elsewhere:
"As for dominance/alpha roles in colony/pack animals. I have some experience in this area. Sugar gliders are very similar to larger pack animals in their role play in the pack/colony. I can tell you from experience that "roles" are NOT written in stone. 2 gliders put in this position after all other methods have failed, may one day decide they really dont like being together and will fight. And we all know a fight can become life threatening in seconds. If the 2 gliders end up staying friends forever, they most likely would have accepted each other eventually using other methods.

We also all know that gliders who have been together for years sometimes decide to not get along and it can get ugly, so why take a greater risk and force 2 together that wouldnt accept each other under more normal circumstances?"

It is our responsibility as their caretakers to have enough intelligence, compassion, and patience to do the right thing by the animal, not ourselves.

To be honest, at this point, I do think this subject has been argued to death. The GG Ed is not an idiot. We wont change his mind. He knows all the sides. So I will appeal directly to him one last time, Ed, please look at these creatures as little people, and ask yourself how you would feel if this was done to you? Isnt there another way less scary? If a lone glider needs a companion so bad, why did you need to force him to accept one in this manner? I wanted another guinea pig, found an adorable one, but decided to not adopt him because I really dont have the time to give him in companionship. That is what is thinking for the animal is all about. Their needs not mine. If a lone glider rejects other gliders, and needs to be forced, maybe he wanted YOU (or someone other than THAT glider)as a companion? No time? Then give him to someone who DOES have the time.

I love the rescue idea. I want to start one myself someday, but we cannot rescue them all. A rescue is not a rescue if you take them in to give them a better home and life, and end up not spending enough time with them because you have so many. Did the quality of LIFE improve or just their diet? We need to work together as a community and spread the responsibility out to help more gliders and improve their QUALITY of LIFE, not be divided over this.

Posted By: carolinasuggies

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 01:52 PM

I spoke with Ed who seems to be very open to changing things about the method! He is a very smart man who is well prepared to admit he was wrong if this pairing doesn't work! I would be more than happy to share with you what he had to say if you are interested feel free to PM me! At this point we are doing nothing but running him off the board which isn't neccissary he is a very intelligent man who has alot to offer! I don't agree with the wet method but I think we as a community should FOR ONCE work together instead of fighting against each other! I ran across this thread here on GC that everyone should read!
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/923657/Gliders_hate_fear_water
Posted By: xSwtxSugaX

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 01:59 PM

I agree, I dont think as a board we should be scaring people away. Whether we like his method or not I think he is worth it as a recuer. GC gets a bad wrap for this stuff (even when we are more civil than most other boards) And i am, personally, sick of the snickers and backlash. Cant we all just get along! smile
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 02:17 PM

Wow, this has been a very long thread to read through.

Originally Posted By: JillMarie
Ed (the Ed that runs the show here on Glider central) thanks for being so level headed and trying to get us all re-directed rather than shutting down this thread.

BTW JillMarie, its "Eddie" on here! roflmao


Originally Posted By: HeatherB
Maybe it is a method that is better shared within a community, between friends or PMs in SEVERE cases ONLY. That way we don't have to fear a negative light, or an inexperienced owner doing this method incorrectly.


I'm not so worried about the negative light on myself for not agreeing with this technique nearly as much as the concern I have for the gliders. However, I have to agree that IF a drastic method is REQUIRED and done under the direct supervision of a VET, these drastic methods should not be published for newbies to see as an easy way out. If this method must be used, it should only be done with that direct supervision - not by someone seeing pictures and videos on the internet. Sometimes I feel we are too free to share information in attempts of improving the lives of gliders. Take a step back and ask yourself "How would a newbie take this?"
Posted By: hpyhwn2003

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 03:03 PM

Originally Posted By: GliderNursery

Originally Posted By: HeatherB
Maybe it is a method that is better shared within a community, between friends or PMs in SEVERE cases ONLY. That way we don't have to fear a negative light, or an inexperienced owner doing this method incorrectly.


I'm not so worried about the negative light on myself for not agreeing with this technique nearly as much as the concern I have for the gliders. However, I have to agree that IF a drastic method is REQUIRED and done under the direct supervision of a VET, these drastic methods should not be published for newbies to see as an easy way out. If this method must be used, it should only be done with that direct supervision - not by someone seeing pictures and videos on the internet. Sometimes I feel we are too free to share information in attempts of improving the lives of gliders. Take a step back and ask yourself "How would a newbie take this?"


Well said Shelly. I whole heartedly agree.
Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 04:08 PM

After reading lots the last couple of days and collecting more information, I think I need to say a few things.

I have seen some pictures and some videos. I'm not sure that they are the same pictures and videos that everyone else saw; they were the videos made my Kazko. The reason that I say that it because after seeing them, I wonder why there has been this much of an uproar. I see nothing in those videos that would or should have caused this much commotion. I saw some gliders that were stressed, in the beginning but not overly stressed before the water. After the water they seemed to calm down. Almost like the water soothed them. If that is what everyone is calling abuse, you ain't seen nothing. I also saw and heard a very calm and caring person performing the water introduction. I can now say that if I ever felt the need to use this method of introduction, I would gather more information and consider using it mysef.

I have to question the references to newbies and implying that all of them are ignorant. Isn't that the same excuse that Virgil of Perfect Pocket Pets used for all the lies that he tells people? Something like the public isn't smart enough to do it right? Most people are intelligent enough to do what is right if given complete information. Sure, I think you are always going to have a few people who take short cuts. But I don't think that is the fault of the creator. It is the fault of those who don't read and follow directions. If a newbie decided that calcium wasn't necessary in a diet and their glider developed MBD, would we point fingers at the creator of the diet?

As I read here it seems like some of you, all of a sudden think that you have the right to dictate how a rescue should be run. That all you have to do is agree and then submit your wish list and the Rescue has to comply. Heaven help us if we have come to that and a good established organization like LGRS can no longer set their own policies or make decisions based on their own experience. This whole thing kind of reminds me of a small group of people not long ago that decided they would set the standards on how each of us should run our personal businesses. In the end it is the rescues responsibility to make choices for the animals they take in. They are the ones who pay the bills, stay up late tending to the sick, miss dinner dates or gatherings and more. And in the end it really doesn't matter if we agree on their methods or not. It is theirs to run as the choose. As long as basic common since things like medical, food, and shelter are met, we have no right to step in.

Abuse....from someone who has seen it, and as someone who knows the laws, I can tell you that nothing I have read or seen constitutes abuse. I certainly see nothing that could even remotely be compared to water boarding. Many of you need to get your emotions under control and actually read the laws. I think that if there is a silver lining to all of this, it is that some of you are finally doing a little research into the laws that pertain to the animals. If any of you still feel that this is abuse, please show me the law so I can investigate it. Really, I would love to see it.


Originally Posted By: WintersSong

I don't understand how we can compare wild animals to our pets. The wild animals are exposed to the elements, whereas ours have been sheltered from them. To me, that's a pretty important difference between the two.




It is imperative to understand life in the wild when setting parameters for our pet animals and to stimulate species typical behavior as closely as possible. Having said that, the real crime here is probably that we don't expose them to water in some form which may cause an unnatural fear of water.

Edit to add:
One more thing. I find it highly unusual for a professional such as a veterinarian to give a professional opinion without reviewing all the facts in a case. Even when I held a victim of abuse in my hand, my vet choose her words very carefully so that nothing she said could be misconstrued or libelous.
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 05:46 PM

Originally Posted By: hushpuppy

I have to question the references to newbies and implying that all of them are ignorant. Isn't that the same excuse that Virgil of Perfect Pocket Pets used for all the lies that he tells people? Something like the public isn't smart enough to do it right? Most people are intelligent enough to do what is right if given complete information. Sure, I think you are always going to have a few people who take short cuts.


Anita, I don't think newbies are ignorant, nor was my comment meant to imply that. They take info they read, expecially if it's published by who seems to be a "reputable source" and think everything they read is valid. Look at the videos put out by that vet, not a good source of information IMO, but since it's published by a vet, newbies will believe it. It's all in the presentation.

My point here is that there is so much bad and controversial information on the internet. You know as well as I do that we are constantly correcting people on things they read/see on the internet.

That's why I am saying to look at it from their perspective before something is published. The "fine print" isn't usually read, unfortunately people don't read everything. And no, that doesn't make it the creator's fault if practices aren't followed as intended. But we, as the creators, also have the responsibility of making sure it's presented as fully
and safely as possible (not saying they aren't, speaking generally here) ~ or be responsible enough to not publish it at all.
Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 06:54 PM

Shelly, it was pure coincidence that my post came after yours. I was not singling you out. I was referring to many comments about newbies throughout this post.

What is bad information and good information in this community seems to depend on who you are talking with and who is friends with who. Much of what we put out as iron clad has been passed from generation to generation without question. We still have much to learn and should be open to learn. Many of the things that we swear by will be obsolete in a few years while other things will prove out time and time again.. and that is how it should be. It is right to question and discuss controversial issues with hard clear evidence. It is never right to threaten, belittle, twist things or make assumptions like we have seen it this post and others across the glider forums.


If we have problems with the videos that Perfect Pocket Pets has put out, it is our responsibility to dispute them with clear evidence. As far as I know there is only one person who has attempted that...Ed of LGRS. How ironic is that? So if you or any one else is so worried about PPP and their bad information. Stop talking to me about it and do what is necessary to dispute it. Go out to the forums, and FB and show YOUR research. JMO
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 07:45 PM

Originally Posted By: hushpuppy
Shelly, it was pure coincidence that my post came after yours. I was not singling you out.


thumb
Posted By: wclanton423

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 08:02 PM

Originally Posted By: hushpuppy
I have seen some pictures and some videos. I'm not sure that they are the same pictures and videos that everyone else saw; they were the videos made my Kazko. The reason that I say that it because after seeing them, I wonder why there has been this much of an uproar. I see nothing in those videos that would or should have caused this much commotion.


Anita, there were pics on Facebook of someone who used this method because she wanted to put her two cages of multiple gliders together. These were not single gliders but gliders that the owner wanted to downsize into one cage. In the pics you can clearly see the cage in the shower and the water running from the shower head directly on them. The owner stated she left them like this for over an hour. I think the uproar was that this method was made public, that people were using it for their own selfish reasons, not to benefit the gliders, and that not enough time was spent to intro gliders using old fashioned methods. There were more pics but all have been removed.
Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 08:15 PM

So your beef is with the person on FB who clearly did not follow directions? So why was LGRS or Kazko drug into this and tortured?

If LGRS had done this secretly, and it leaked out, this whole community would have been in an uproar over people sneaking around. LGRS was correct in publishing what they were trying. I admire those who openly show their records. It is not their fault that someone did things in an untested way. This process, if it works out, could be revolutionary. Or it might not...
Posted By: wclanton423

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 08:29 PM

The communities beef is that they are putting together gliders that clearly do not want to be put together, getting them soaked, putting mouthwash on their cloaca (never stating non-alcoholic) which could cause burning, make them sit like this for over an hour until exhausted, forcing these scared, wet, exhausted gliders into a bonding pouch with gliders they did not want to be put together, leaving them in a small cage with nothing but one pouch and withholding food for a night. Doesn't that seem harsh?
Posted By: BindiAndScrubbie

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 09:19 PM

This is all I want to say and then I'm done. This is already getting so long as is.

The thing is, I don't understand why it is so hard for Ed and Kazko to just take the method down from public view. The big fear is that newbies will see this and try it just to save themselves time and effort. This has already been proven with the woman on Facebook. You say that you only trickle water on them and rub it in. From the photos I saw, she clearly had water running onto the cage. She has only had gliders a short time. So the fear that newbies will do this is already happening. It will continue to happen. That I think, is one of the big issues. What you guys do in your own homes, none of us can do anything about. It's your business whether or not we like it or agree. So since the majority thinks it's appalling and cruel...why is it so hard to just remove it from public view? Take down the videos, take down the 'how to' instructions. Do what you want in your own homes as we cannot stop you, but for God's sake, don't let your instructional boasting lead to something terrible when someone tries it themselves and fails. So many bad things can happen, just because they didn't happen these last few times, surely, it can in the future.
I never saw anywhere that you used non alcoholic mouthwash. You only just now said you did. But even if you did, I'm sure the non alcoholic burns just the same and when the gliders go to clean it off....can you say for certain that the mouthwash they ingest is alright for their systems?

So really, I think what the majority is asking is please just take it down from public view. Do whatever in your own home but please stop advertising this method out in the open, it can be too appealing to new people and so many things can go wrong. Let's not forget that there are MANY teenagers who will try this. I am just surprised that you are ok with this.

I'm glad it worked for you with no problems so far. (Even though I disagree with it entirely) But let's not open the portal for bad things to happen to other people. You know?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/12/11 09:20 PM

Quote:
So your beef is with the person on FB who clearly did not follow directions? So why was LGRS or Kazko drug into this and tortured?


Most likely because Kazko introduced this "method" and LGRS used the same "method"....and blogged about it, with instructions.

So, if this Brenda person came along, read it...or skimmed the blog (whichever) and then put her own spin on this "method" without emailing Kazko or Ed and asking questions regarding the instructions, are they to "blame" (for lack of a better word)?? Depends on who you ask.

I didnt read the blog personally, but is it stated ANYWHERE....a disclaimer of sorts, telling people that this "method" is/was a LAST resort and to follow the instructions AS IS?? Or state that if there are any questions on this "method" to contact them or get a vets advice/opinion BEFORE attempting this?

And I hardly think we are being "torturous" with Ed. We are concerned and worried about this method of intros and as you can clearly see...99.9% of us are extremely passionate about the care and welfare of gliders.
Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/13/11 04:48 PM

Speaking as someone who lost one of my precious babies (flyer)last night, I certainly understand that passion for animals. What I don't understand it the vengeance and hurtfulness that I see in the glider community against their fellow man who share that passion. No more than I understand the twisting of words and facts to make a point, befriending (be careful Ed) someone until you get the “scoop” on them and then feeding them to the wolves, the popularity contests, the deceptions and plotting, destroying anyone who has done better than you, or the at all cost desire to be known as the “ultimate glider savior of the world”, or any of the strange deeds that seems tobe running rampant across the forums pertaining to this subject.

My emotions are probably too raw right now and I should probably just close my mouth so I think that is exactly what I am going to do. I won't be returning to this subject nor any other for awhile.
Posted By: hpyhwn2003

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/13/11 06:58 PM

I don't really think that anyone is doing this to gain recognition from anyone tho as I have stated before I am not them and can't tell anyone else what they are thinking. I personally don't want any rescue to close. I did take the time to let Ed know who I am and what I thought about the method and the fact that I don't condone it and wouldn't reccommend it's use as I felt he had the right to know who opposed the method and why I did. I did openly let him and everyone else know that I had no desire to have him closed but would sign a petition asking him to stop using the method and I sure he knows that. Will that make him stop using it? Well he himself has stated that he would use it again if he felt the need to and he does have that right as you stated it is his rescue to do with as he saw fit. As to wither what he is doing violates any laws I will leave that up to the proper authorities to decide. I have not attacked him personally. Tho I have attacked the method. But I feel he knows that too. I have certainly not hidden in the shadows about how I feel about the method. But I have also not asked to be patted on the back for standing up and trying to be a voice of reason.
In closing I will also state that Ed isn't the only person in the community who is working very hard at disputing the horrible information that is online about how to care for gliders. Just to name the first 2 that comes to mind there is TGI and SPIN (I know there are more out there so forgive me if I did not mention your group). Do they not get any credit for the work they are doing? Isn't that in fact what they are trying to do now with this method?
Posted By: KarenE

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/13/11 07:52 PM

Originally Posted By: gliderdad79

Now why not use this thread and time to discuss what can be possibly changed so different methods can produce the same results.

How about the community start trying to find new inventive ways of doing things for GLIDERS and improving things instead of sitting around waiting to pull out their pitch forks and light their torches for a change!


There will be NO MORE posts about petitions being signed and continuing to rehash the same over and over only to keep this thread going. I'm pretty sure Ed gets how you all feel by now.

We have tried our best to keep this thread open hoping it would take a turn to some constructive ideas but have yet to see that happen.

If it continues on this path, it will be locked.
Posted By: hpyhwn2003

Re: Wet introductions, reposted - 01/13/11 09:17 PM

I'm sorry Karen I didn't mean to reopen that whole issue. I was only trying to point out that I personally am not seeking glory. And that there are groups out there working hard to educate.
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