GliderCENTRAL

Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2

Posted By: sugarlope

Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/04/08 03:31 AM

Read Part 1
Posted By: Nicki

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/04/08 03:41 AM

So, I haven't posted in a few days - I had a HORRIBLE sinus infection, and couldn't really do much besides work (try to anyways) and sleep. Now that my meds are finally kicking in - I can continue on with the process...

The past couple of days have been good though! I didn't have a chance to clean what I usually leave at the bottom of the cage, so I put a piece of fleece in the bottom temporarily - I won't do that again. Mak and Xylo decided to leave the PP pouch and move to the floor lol. They have been doing GREAT actually - I was nervous because I was only able to give them their food the other night - barely say hi, and leave to lay down...I thought for sure I would be taking backwards steps...thankfully that was not the case at all!! I went in and said hi on my break from work today and Xylo picked up his head - but not with that scared look in his face, more like "Oh there she is! Where have you been?" Kind of look...he made me smile SO BIG!! Tonight they got up early and when I went to put their food in their they jump on me before I even had the dishes out of my hand! They aren't running from the cage door anymore - it's really exciting. I can't wait until I am at the bonding pouch stage - but I am SO thankful for where I am at already - even with having to take a couple days off to re-cooperate.
Bourbon...I will be calling you shortly for the update...(I can breathe and don't sound funny now!) lol
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/04/08 06:24 AM

Okay Erin! Bourbon told me about your adventures today and we want to hear it from the horse's mouth (so to speak) LOL Howz Shadow doin???
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/04/08 03:11 PM

Today is day 4 for me. Were still working on Pogo's issues with not being a morning glider. I don't blame her because I'm not a morning person either, but Bourbon says she needs to get used to it and stop being so grumpy. So I have to go in and talk to her every morning. It seems the talking is getting better, she doesn't crab now when I open the door and talk. Petting is still a different story...until after noon anyhow.
Posted By: SugareeErin

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/05/08 03:33 AM

Okay here is your Shadow update!

Day 16: Things are going great! Tent is a blast, he is gliding to me and so is Sunshine. Shadow likes to sit in my lap someimes too and lets me pet him. smile Sugar is getting there, she jumps to my arm or shoulder but not my hand yet, but both girls walked on my hand....and.........

Yesterday I picked Shadow up in my hands jump I've only done it once before and carried him to the tent, then I was a chicken and used the bonding pouch to get him in there lol. He was so cute just sitting in a little ball looking kind of bewildered, I pet him a little and then I put him back into his pouch smile

I am going to use the bonding pouch a lot as well and then try to transition them back into their cage pouch once they are completely over their pouch protectiveness, the pouch protector pouch is now closed. They have lots of toys now, they have been getting one back every day and no one hides or sleeps in the wheel anymore, they come up to the bars and want to come out! They don't seem to fear my hands at all anymore in the cage or the tent. A bit still in the pouch but we are certianly getting there!

Sound like you all are doing great too! Everyone make sure to be consistant and establish a routine. It makes a huge difference! Don't push them too hard(baby steps), have patience and understanding. Remember to put yourself in their shoes!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/05/08 03:34 AM

Day 14: We had playtime today...and I got bit AND crabbed at! UGH!!!

I scooped my girls up and in the pouch we went for some Mommy time. After about 5 minutes of calm petting and talking, I grabbed the mealies and some toys and to the play area we went! Our play area is the top of the stairwell as they like to climb the banister and doorframes in the upstairs hallway. Plus there are 3 doorknobs and the banister to hang toys off of.

Bella immediately climbed out of the pouch, up my arm, across my back... and up my shirt! There she resided for the next 30 minutes and got to be close and intimate friends with my spinal cord... through the skin mind you. LOL

Donna took a bit of coaxing to come out of the pouch, which was open on the floor BTW. I talked to her, offered her my hand, then set a warm mealie loose on the fleece in front of her. Out she came to pounce on it! I then zipped the pouch up and hung it from the doorknob. She ran amuck for awhile, climbing my clothes, sniffing the fleece (I think looking really hard for a place to hide!), then she hopped up onto the pouch hanging from the doorknob and just hung there. I offered her my hand... and she got on it! VOLUNTARILY! We had some fun getting on Mommy's hand then off again. Then she decided to climb down the stairs. When I called her name after a few stairs, she did the most adorable little hops back up them to her Mommy! ME!

Things went bad when she started to look scared and I opened the pouch back up and put it on the floor. I went to pet her and she bit me pretty hard, then crabbed at me for about 2 seconds. I guess we know the pouch is still a no-go for Miss Donna! That's okay, I can take it. This was probably stressful as it really is the first playtime we have had in 2 weeks. Next time I will just put her on my shoulder and walk to the play area.

Even though she yelled at me AND bit me... I am really excited that she got on my hand all by herself! That was another first!!!

But I wonder... will she eventually be able to be carried in a regular pouch??? I know I know... it takes time, be patient, go at her pace, look how far she has come... just asking Bourbon! LOL
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/05/08 06:23 AM

Day 5

It's 1:30AM and they still haven't woken up for playtime...what the heck? My gliders have had super weird sleep schedules since that first night I took everything out of the cage and they were up all day trying to figure out what to do with themselves.

When I got up this morning they had abandoned the pouch and were sleeping in a corner on the floor. When they were back there they crabbed at me when I went to take out their nighttime dishes to clean them, so I decided that had to change-I closed the pouch up a little and next thing I knew they were sleeping in it again. Guess it was open a little too much for them. They didn't crab in it all day today so I guess all is good.

More petting during the day today while they were asleep. Petting and talking. Yesterday I was able to pet them while they slept. Today I got to pet them while they were AWAKE! Yes, AWAKE! I was shocked! Even Ranger didn't mind (especially when he got some licky treats :))

So that's our big step for today...I thought today was going to be a not-much-progress day when I saw them sleeping on the floor this morning, but it turned out awesome! I'm so impressed with the progress we've made already that I can't even imagine where to go from here smile

CONGRATS to everyone here! Look at how far we've come in so little time! smile
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/06/08 06:30 PM

Pogo is a ton better, but Lilly we're just starting on. She not agressive, just extremely defensive. Bourbon said to start with her on just licky treats. So she gets them on the end of the metal spoon. And yesterday she didn't bite at all. Pogo is doing good too. She doesn't get defensive and she doesn't crab at all. We're still working on morning grumpiness, she's doing a bit better.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/07/08 02:32 AM

Day 6 here for me and Maui and McKenna!!

What a turnaround we are now coming out of the hammock in the cage via walking on my hand to their hamsters balls. If they walk over my hands they get into them they get to play and un around for 10 to 15 minutes and then they get fed a yogie treat by hand if there is no biting.

CRABBING - what is crabbing i have not had crabbing from either glider since we stripped out the cage.

Maui is taking the licky treats from my finger with no biting and allowing petting time.

McKenna (the viper) is taking the licky treats of the spoon very well and I am introducing my finger to her with the licky treats.

My next step is playtime in the bathroom with just them (and then bringing CiCi in too join in also).
Posted By: SugareeErin

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/09/08 01:36 AM

How is it going with everyone today? Haven't heard from anyone in a while smile We are doing about the same here, less crabbing in the bonding pouch everyday. Soon I hope they will move into their Elfin House dance

Red Foxy- Hampsterballs are not safe for gliders, they can get their toes stuck. You should get a small pop up tent for safe playtime that is more interactive!

Also, only hand feed licky treats-not the yogurt drop! You do not want them to associate their teeth with your hands.
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/09/08 01:50 AM

Day 8: Still petting in the pouch, licky treats, and trying to get them on my hand.

Doing fantastic! Ranger now gets on my hand in the cage if I put my hand up to him. I don't know how he would do if he got out-he doesn't even try, he's too scared. I had no idea he could be such a sweetie though! He got on my hand today and was grooming me smile First time EVER.

Nika-not so sure about her. I've always thought she was my sweet one, but I have to really coax her to get on my hand. She's been a little cranky the last couple of days, hopefully she gets over it.

I've got some pictures for you smile

One is them in the pouch (Ranger on top, Nika on bottom), and one is Ranger on my hand (not the best pic because he's a fast mover, but you get the idea!)

Attached picture on my hand 001ed2.jpg
Attached picture on my hand 004ed.jpg
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/09/08 02:46 AM

I have finished with Bourbon the week of Thanksgiving. She was amazing. I now have 2 loveable gliders that were once crabby patties. I came to realize it wasn't their fault. When I got them they weren't handled very much. I couldn't put my hand in the cage with them w/o a crab or chance of getting bitten. Now I can open the cage, put my hands in, pet them and they will even get on my hand. I get groomed on occasion. I'm not scared to offer licky treats anymore. I still have them in their open pouch with no blanket. All in all they are doing well. Give it time everyone, this does work.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/09/08 03:07 AM

Havne't checked in with Bourbon since friday because I've been ill, but Pogo Is still being consistent with her progress and Lilly now takes licky treats off the metal spoon without biting!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/09/08 03:07 AM

Originally Posted By: SugareeErin
Red Foxy- Hampsterballs are not safe for gliders, they can get their toes stuck. You should get a small pop up tent for safe playtime that is more interactive! Also, only hand feed licky treats-not the yogurt drop! You do not want them to associate their teeth with your hands.


1. The hamster ball is being used because i could not handle the gliders to have interactive playtime.
2. Don't need the tent as the playroom is our main bathroom (glider proofed of course)

For the first time in a month i have had all three of my gliders in the playroom at the same time. All three gliders we running jumping gliding and interacting with both me and my husband (he has so much patience) and there was not one bite or blood from a bite tonight.

When I give yogie treats - they take they from me with there hands - not teeth.

Bourbon

Again thank you for the STEP by STEP guide you are giving me to achieve this HUGE turnaround. We are 200% from when i start this two weeks ago that I am over the moon
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/09/08 04:08 AM

I haveen't talked to Bourbon much lately, we keep playing phone tag, and my phone needs to be flushed down a toilet anyway... cruddy Razor! UGH! But that's okay, I am usually in such a bad mood these days nobody can stand to be around me. The only thing that cheers me up is talking sweet to my stubborn little girls!

Anyway, we are still at kind of a stalemate here. Donna will take the licky treat off the straw without her teeth, but about half the time if I offer a finger she gives me that look and opens her mouth. (sigh...) She is also creeping out of the pouch away from me more and more since I started scooping her out of the pouch. And she will run from me when I put in the food bowls at night now.

BELLA is now the one being food aggressive, and I have caught her biting Donna's leg to get her off of a food bowl, so I am using several now. I am also hearing a LOT of squabling in the pouch these days... no balling up or outright fighting, but a lot of fussing and stuff.

What am I going to do with these girls???
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/09/08 04:23 AM

Originally Posted By: BelladonnasMom
What am I going to do with these girls???


Ooh pick me pick me!

You're going to stay positive and keep working with your girls. Even if you feel like you're going "backwards", you're still getting to interact with them. The way I see it, changes in behavior and roles (like you've seen with Bella and Donna) is still progress, because you're learning about their personalities and you're discovering what you have to do to earn their trust. This may not be going in the direction you want it to, but you can use the information you're getting about your girls' behavior to get where you want! You're doing fantastic, you're putting effort into them and making progress. And you said it...talking to them makes you feel better smile So that's a good thing! Just keep it up hug2
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/09/08 04:40 AM

Yeah, I got kind of down just typing that last post, so I had to get my sugar fix! LOL I gave my girlies some mealies, and got in some serious petting and conversation! Donna even ate 3 mealies while I petted her around her neck and behind her ears!!!!! No crabbing, no dodging Mommy, no biting or running away... like you said, the progress is still there! Just have to keep positive.

But Bella wouldn't get on my hand for a mealie frown

Crash and burn again....

I'm ready for vacation to be over, I just feel useless these days. Sorry, needed to vent. I'll be okay smile
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/09/08 06:24 AM

Robin, maybe they are picking up on your emotions at this time...

when you are feeling low, go back and read your first posts about Donna, see where she was, and see where she is... that should make you smile..

I am so very proud of all of you, you all have come so far...
Posted By: suggiemom1980

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/09/08 06:41 AM

Oh my goodness!!!!! Tonight, Rough & Tough did NOT think about or try to bite me AND they took blueberry yogurt from a Chinese spoon where my hand was only TWO INCHES from their noses! I was almost in tears, I was so happy!!! This is the first time I've used blueberry yogurt and they loved it so much and were so comfortable with me, they concentrated on following that spoon and getting a lick instead of where I and my hand were!


Two days ago, I realized, I was finally reading their body language and saw that they were actually listening to me while I was talking instead of getting ready to run! They were 90% relaxed and just listening to me talk to them, watching as if they were just paying attention, instead of tensing up and preparing to head for the hills!

Just when I start to become disappointed and discouraged because it's moving soooo slowly, they surprise me by making a huge leap forward!

Thank you, bourbon! My babies lives have improved in quality more than I ever thought possible! What a joy to know they're happier and not terrified anymore!
Posted By: SugareeErin

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/09/08 06:21 PM

clap Great job everyone!n Keep up the good work!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/10/08 04:48 PM

Ok so I just started to work with Bourbon. Here is my glider story just to give you guys a idea of how my gliders are.

I got my gliders from a family who was moving and could not take them. My family consists of a breeding pair (Bella and Houdini 1 1/2 yrs old), Jackie (3 month oop female), and Joey (5 week oop male). They were never fed a normal diet and the joeys were never handled. The lady thought that if mom has a joey ip or oop you could not take then out. Well when I got them Bella was easily bonding during tent time. Bella and Houdini would jump on me and use me as a human glider jingle gym but Houdini was a little more distant. Jackie would come out of the pouch smell me and run into a corner of the tent and not come out. Joey just never came out of the bed unless mom or dad got him out . Now I am working with Bourbon. Hopefully they will become little angels when we are done.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/10/08 04:53 PM

Here is my update after 24 hours of working with Bourbon. I made my own make shift no sew pouch protective glider pouch. The first few times I went near the cage after I got them out of their old pouch and into the new one I could not even open the door before Houdini or Jackie would crab, lunge and attach themselves to the door. They eventually settled down and I was able to open the door and tell them everything is going to be ok. Bella one time came up and licked my forehead. Joey (the 5 wk old) crabbed at me a couple times when I opened the door when he was up walking around. They are not crabbing at me at all anymore when I go near or open the cage. Step one complete and on to step two.

Bourbon you are amazing. We should start calling you The Glider Whisper. LOL
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/11/08 03:30 AM

Well, I am sad to say that Bourbon pretty much announced us "graduated" today. I am THRILLED with the progress Donna has made, but we came to the conclusion that Miss Donna just may be as good as she's gonna get. Which is FINE, don't get me wrong!!! I have a completely different glider! I can handle her, feed her, even play with her to an extent without fear of blood or a blown eardrum (LOL). But she just may never be the sweet bra baby I had envisioned. (sigh) But we of course are going to continue with the socialization with Mommy, and she will always be my fluffy girl. Now we are just going to take things easy and keep working on trust and bonding. No pressure.

Bourbon, you are awesome!!! I would NEVER turn my back on my fluffy girl, but I had just about resigned myself to an anti-social caged pet. And I am so grateful to you for helping me see that Donna was just scared, and she can be an interactive member of my family! I love her, and you too for giving her to me as she is now!!!!! (Yeah I know... you smoked cigs and drank Dew with your feet up while I did the work... SHUT UP and say "You're welcome Robin!" LOL)

New pupils... KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!! And I will still be checking in to see everyone's progress and give pats on the back!!!!!
Posted By: Nicki

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/11/08 05:27 AM

So my question to all these people that are having a few issues with bonding, and aren't quite there yet (like me)...how easy/hard is it for you to trim these gliders nails? I went in this morning - and that might have just made us take a step backwards if I were to keep proceeding...hmmm....just wondering how everyone else does it? Or if there are techniques that I should try, without ruining the progress we've made so far.
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/11/08 05:29 AM

Day 10-Bonding pouch

Well, I picked up Ranger for the first time EVER today-yes, EVER. I was SO EXCITED. It was 10:45PM and I wasn't sure if Bourbon would be up, but I was thrilled so I called her anyway haha (turns out the entire house was up roflmao)

So I scooped Ranger out of the makeshift cage pouch and held him against my chest. He crabbed a little, then calmed down when I started petting him. Then he curled up like he was going to go to sleep in my hand! I had the bonding pouch around my neck, so I showed him the pouch and he crawled right in. Didn't crab, just went to sleep. Then he woke up and started crabbing every once in a while, so I put him back in the cage. This was such a BIG step and I'm super excited!!!
jump jump jump jump jump jump jump jump jump jump
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/11/08 06:55 AM

Originally Posted By: Nicki
So my question to all these people that are having a few issues with bonding, and aren't quite there yet (like me)...how easy/hard is it for you to trim these gliders nails? I went in this morning - and that might have just made us take a step backwards if I were to keep proceeding...hmmm....just wondering how everyone else does it? Or if there are techniques that I should try, without ruining the progress we've made so far.


HAH! As nice as Donna is being, I still don't wanna lose an arm!!! Do you have a stealth wheel or a wodent wheel? You can buy nail trimmer inserts for them and NOT have to trim nails! I LOVE my stealth!!!!! No more glider footy prints on Mommy!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/11/08 06:56 AM

And Woooo Hooo Dee!!! You go girl!!!
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/11/08 07:50 AM

Did you wrap the glider in a piece of fleece and then pull out one foot at a time? I've heard that will help so that the glider doesn't associate you with the nasty nail clipping. I have a trimming insert and Ranger uses the wheel enough to keep his nails down, but Nika doesn't. With her, I will wrap her in a piece of fleece and rub her until she goes to sleep (definitely do this during the day when they're tired). Then I will pull one foot out (making sure she's still wrapped up) and my boyfriend helps me...he holds her while I hold the foot to make sure she doesn't come unwrapped (she'd freak out) and then I clip. Put the foot back. Pull out the next foot. Nika's pretty good about it.

And thanks Robin grin
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/11/08 07:57 AM

I just pull out a foot one at a time while they are fast asleep in my bra. 9 out of ten times they snooze straight through it. Easy and most importantly - stress free!!
Posted By: Athena26

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/11/08 04:56 PM

Hi, I just put the pp pouch in the cage last night and took out everything i thought they could hide in but now they are under the fleece i use to line the floor do i remove that too? if i do what should i line the floor with.

Bourbon I am sorry i have not gotten back with you. I got laid off my job last week and now have had to shut off my phone. I would apprciate help but not sure how short of reading this forum. crazy
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/11/08 10:00 PM

Yes you want to remove the fleece. You dont want then to be able to hide.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/11/08 10:05 PM

Well here is my day 2 update.

My new goal was to get them to take yogurt off of the back of a metal spoon. No crabbing at all! Which is great. Houdini was the only one who tried to bite the spoon. Did not try that one twice. After that NO Biting. They are doing so great. I am so proud of them. They are also starting to come to the cage door when I walk over. I have different gliders already. I cant wait
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/11/08 10:15 PM

to see how they are when I am done.

Sorry I hit a button and it sent before I was done. I hate laptops.

Day 3 Update.

So far so good. Bourbon gave me the goal today of continuing the licky treats and trying to get Jackie to take pudding from a straw. They were sleeping on the cage floor this morning but are now back in the pouch. Oh and one time when I opened the door of the cage Bella decided to escape, Thank god the dogs were closed out of the room. I tried to get her to go into her old pouch because it looked like she was trying to find somewhere to hind but, SHE GRABBED AND CLIMBED ONTO MY HAND (which is new). So from then on I did what I have read on here. Offered my hand but not force her to get on it. She would climb on my hand and run all over me and when I got to the cage door she would turn and run down my back and all over me. Then finally she went in the cage. I am so happy. I did not think it would go so well.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/12/08 02:29 AM

Well today has been great. No crabbing what so ever, no lunging either. Everyone has been happy, including me. I have never been able to go in their cage and move their pouch around without crabbing and lunging. Its like they finally love their mommy. Jackie and Joey do not come out of the pouch much but, Bella and Houdini are always greeting me now when I walk in the room.

BOURBON YOU ARE GREAT. A thousand thanks to you.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/12/08 04:30 AM

Bella tried to escape again tonight. I feel so bad. I wanna let her out to run around, she has never shown any signs of crabbing, lunging, or biting. She is my sweet baby girl. But I know I can not give her any special privileges. I need to treat her like the rest for now. I am only on day 3 and they are doing so good. I can not wait until they are all like Bella. Oh Houdini is lunging at the straw. He is a pudding hog. I try giving it to the other ones and he will lunge at the straw to get it from them. I have now stopped giving it to him through the straw. I do not want to reward his lunging. Is it a good thing to go back to the metal spoon with him? Well I will wait to see when I talk to Bourbon tomorrow. They are up and running around now so my night of working with them is pretty much over. Write more updates tomorrow.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/12/08 05:34 AM

Tara, my best advice would be to go back to the spoon handle and only for 3 licks at a time. That way everyone gets a share, there isn't time to bite it, and they will come to realize that you WILL bring it back for more!

You're doing AWESOME!!! Keep up the good work! Isn't it awesome to watch them progress???
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/12/08 08:11 PM

I am now on day 4 and I spoke with Bourbon today. She said to put my hand in on top of them today. So far everything has went well they did not even move when I put my hand on them. I hope it stays like this.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/12/08 08:13 PM

Can I have you guys permission to add this stuff into my glider notebook that I am making? I especially need your permission Bourbon. You are the one that has walked us all through the steps and helped us get to these points.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/13/08 05:03 AM

HEY BOURBON!!!! I have some pictures for you. grin dance

Attached picture Bella.jpg
Attached picture bella2.jpg
Attached picture bella3.jpg
Attached picture bella4.jpg
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/13/08 05:05 AM

They are pictures of my Bella. The sweet one in the family. I would of smiled in my one pic but I looked too cheesy. LOL
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/13/08 05:26 AM

Looks like you guys are doing awesome Tara!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/13/08 06:20 AM

OMG Tara you look TERRIFIED that your glider is on your shoulder being NICE! LOL

And of course you have my permission to save and share ANY of my posts on this thread... pending BOURBON'S approval!!!!! And Karen's too as she is the one who made the PP pouch! If you get the rest of them on board, you can count me in too.
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/13/08 11:29 AM

Me too.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/13/08 12:59 PM

Not scared...she just can out from under my shirt. The firsttime that happened and I was extremely surprised
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/14/08 04:31 AM

Day 13-not much of an update here. They have been going in the pouch. Ranger will let me pick him up and hold him for about thirty seconds before getting frightened and trying to run away. If I am holding Nika and she gets scared I can just give her lickys and she will sit calmly in my hand eating. This doesn't work with Ranger-I don't think he even sees anything when he gets scared, he completely ignores treats and focuses on getting away.
I have been putting them in the bonding pouch every day, and every day is a little better. We went out tonight (to get some mealies and to dinner-yes, dinner) and they crabbed quite a bit for the first 3 or so minutes and then calmed down. They didn't crab again until I pulled the pouch out of my shirt to get them out.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/14/08 06:46 AM

Day 5- Today my job was to scoop out the 2 joeys and put them in a bonding pouch. That did not happen today until I got the 5 wk old out at about 8:30pm when everyone else was eating. I freaked out today when I went in to do it. I talked to Bourbon after I got Joey (the 5wk old) out and pretty much came to the realization that I am scared of Houdini. I know I should not be, it is just that he is the one that bites unprovoked. He is also the one that is protective of the babies. I have to get over that fear in order to move on with him and the rest. Bourbon says that once I get him over his insecurities he will change the mood in the cage and it will be easier. I have to do what Bourbon says and "Just Do It". No matter how I much I might be [censored] out on the inside I cant show it and just do what she says.

Bourbon-I will stick to my promise and just do it tomorrow morning (after I give Houdini a straw of pudding to keep him busy... grin ) I thank you so much for putting up with me. I know I can be a pain in the butt. laugh . Oh and just so you know, you are not mean. You are just out to help people like me with their gliders and no matter how you sound on the phone you are just trying to help. If it was not for your help I can tell you a lot of our gliders would probably turn out to be cage gliders.

Sorry such a long post. Had to get a few things out there.
Posted By: Athena26

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/16/08 03:10 AM

I dont know but i think i am doing everything wrong. I took everything out they could hid in and they finally started to sleep in the pp pouch but evertime i get near the cage the 3 of them run i dont even have time to talk or try licky treats and the cage is so big they just run to the other side. any suggestions?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/16/08 03:27 AM

Amanda, don't get discouraged! Just sit and talk to them, don't put your hands INSIDE the cage unless they are in the pouch. Okay, feed them, but don't try to handle them. They will come around. Are you calm when you approach the cage? If you are nervous, they could be picking up on that.

It's important for everyone to remember this always: GO AT THEIR PACE, NO YOURS!

It will happen, just takes longer for some babies!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/16/08 03:32 AM

Update on Donna: Day whatever... LOL I stopped counting.

I have been bonding with Bella daily, and taking Donna out when she seems receptive. Playtime has gotten a lot better. DOnna gets on my hand more and more each time, but she still bites and crabs ocassionally. I get the message Donna, NO BONDING POUCH! LOL She hates being approached when she is closed in. I am willing to accept the fact that this little girl may never be able to be in a bonding pouch or regular sleeping pouch. She is to the point now that I can make a PP pouch TYPE of pouch for them to sleep in now that she doesn't try to get away from me. I can still give her what she needs AND have my matching cage sets. LOL

I scooped Donna outta the PP pouch today and cuddled her for a full monute before she darted up my arm to my shoulder, and I can pet her for a LONG time without her biting me! Still seeing progress!!!

Bella has decided that between my shoulder blades is better than the bra. She grooms me till I think she will take the skin off! I think she likes me y'all!!! LOL

So you see folks, I am not really "working" with my girls anymore, but I am still seeing progress. Your hard work will be rewarded too!!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/17/08 07:52 PM

Hey guys. Sorry I have not been on. I have had some sort of stomach virus and have lost my voice. Bourbon sorry I havent called I cant talk at the moment due to no voice. lol. I will call you as soon as I can.
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/17/08 08:22 PM

That's so cool Robin!
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/18/08 08:10 AM

AAAAHHHH!


I'm so excited I can't even explain it!! dance jump dance


Today Ranger fell asleep in my hand!!! I did the ice cream scoop out of the pouch he did this sort of half crab thing for like half a second. I think he was just startled. Then I held him up against me and he was just looking at me, so I started petting him and he FELL ASLEEP! It was sooo cute. I was rubbing him under his chin so he laid his head back on my wrist so he could sleep while I rub him. He woke up a bit later and started licking my hand. He licked like my ENTIRE palm (glad I washed my hands before picking him up lol) and then curled into a little ball in my hand and went to sleep!!! AAHH I'm so happy!!!


This obviously isnt the best pic ever, but you get the idea smile smile smile

Attached File
Rangerjpg  (48 downloads)
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/19/08 05:59 AM

Merry Christmas Deanna!!!!!
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/19/08 06:01 AM

Quote:

I scooped Donna outta the PP pouch today and cuddled her for a full minute before she darted up my arm to my shoulder, and I can pet her for a LONG time without her biting me! Still seeing progress!!!


Merry Christmas Robin!!!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/19/08 06:54 AM

clap Great job. I am so happy for you. You are making great progress.
Posted By: Athena26

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/20/08 12:57 AM

Well i finally thought my trio was going to have to sleep in the pp pouch but when i went to talk to them when I got home they were nowere to be found. I searched there cage and thought they had gotten out then i looked up at the ceiling and saw this:
peeking
tails
tails2
There are 3 full grown gliders in there..LOL they managed to find the last and only thing they can hide in and tonight it will be taken out too. I feel so bad taking all there things but its for the best. Just thought i would share. crazy
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/20/08 01:04 AM

Yep, the tunnel's gotta go Amanda haha. I couldn't even keep fleece on the bottom of the cage anymore as bedding. It was tucked in beneath the rept PVC frame, but Ranger spent HOURS pulling at it until he finally got a hole big enough he could crawl into.


Also, thanks Tara smile

And a REALLY big thanks to Bourbon...this is more than I ever wished for. I'll be calling you within the next couple of days smile
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/21/08 08:26 AM

Anyone else have updates?
Posted By: Holly1221

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/22/08 04:00 AM

i was sposed to call Bourbon this weekend but got a little sidetracked so i will be making the call tomorrow ! hope to have happy updates in the near future myself !
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/22/08 04:10 AM

If you want to call her tonight I know for a fact she's still up lol, I just got off the phone with her a bit ago
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/22/08 04:43 AM

I know how you feel Amanda. I felt so HORRIBLE taking out all their stuff! But Bourbon just kept telling me, "Are you getting bit? Are you getting crabbed at? Then YOU are the unhappy one, NOT the gliders."
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/22/08 09:10 AM

So Bourbon said tonight that she is "cutting me loose" as far as Ranger is concerned. Now we're just keeping up with Nika. I told her that I have her phone number now, she CAN'T cut me loose, I'm calling her anyway haha smile

Just to remind everyone, less than 4 weeks ago Ranger would crab if anyone walked by the cage, and a bonding pouch was not an option. If I tried to put him in a bonding pouch, he would crab and lunge at the window INCESSANTLY until I took him out-even if he had to crab for an hour. I could not even THINK of picking this little guy up, and he did not want to get on me even during play time.

Now-he will get on my hand whenever I put it up to him. I can scoop him up no matter where he is and he doesn't mind. He will stay on me when I walk around the house, and chirp in my ear. He will take lickys from my finger without biting. When I come in the room when he is awake he will run up to where the Rept zipper usually opens and chirp.

Usually when I am going to interact with the gliders I kick everyone out of the room because I don't want ANYTHING scaring the gliders. Because of the progress I have had with Ranger, I decided today to see how he does around other people. He climbed onto my hand, and my experimental visitor (lol) held her hand up to Ranger. He sniffed it and then climbed back up to my shoulder. Then he climbed back down and sniffed her hand again, and then got on her!! Crawled all over her. When he started to look like he wanted to come back, I put my hand up and he climbed right on and came back. Not scared at all. I was wearing a shirt with a pocket in the front, and he then crawled right into my shirt pocket and went to sleep. heart

So, I have some pictures for you to show you how good Ranger is being.

Bourbon said Merry Christmas to me, but I am saying Merry Christmas to Ranger, and apologizing for not understanding him before. Not to mention promising that I am in no way going to betray the trust he is beginning to give me.

So now, on to working with Nika lol (and continuing to bond with Ranger).


Attached picture ranger 129ed.jpg
Attached picture ranger 130ed.jpg
Attached picture ranger 131ed.jpg
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/22/08 11:09 AM

Ranger is a cutey pie smile
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/22/08 04:39 PM

You are sooo lucky Deanna!!! Congratulations on the bond you are forming with Ranger. Your hard work is certainly paying off!!!!!
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/22/08 06:26 PM

Thanks guys grin I probably sounded downright ridiculous the last several times I've called Bourbon because every time we had a breakthrough I was just ecstatic haha. I'm surprised that Nika is proving to be more difficult, as I thought that she trusted me more (before we started with Bourbon).

Robin, how are Bella and Donna doing?
Posted By: Holly1221

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/22/08 10:34 PM

i called Bourbon at 2am [my time] and we talked for an hour. she really made me see things differently. like the fact that i didn't realize Phoenix didn't sleep in the daytime bc he was scared.

i think this will be a little harder as i will be working [essentially] with 2 different cages of gliders at the same time.

unfortunately, my stepdad tied me up all day. i managed to buy new fleece blankies that i can use to make stuff with if need be.

for now, i'm using the corner "bridges". [does that make sense ?] i think though, that i will have to change Misos and Lacee's but we shall see.

they were all up today whenever i managed to get into my room to change my shoes or pajamas. Misos and Lacee like to make it a bit difficult for me to get into their cage as the door is huge and they climb on it ohwell

tomorrow is the "official" DAY 1..
let the games begin !
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/23/08 10:12 AM

Have you ordered a PP pouch yet Holly?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/24/08 04:48 AM

Hee hee... In case anyone thinks our perspectives are warped bc these are OUR babies. I'll tell everyone what happened at my house today.

My cousin that has 3 gliders came over to day to deliver a bicycle she was hiding for me today. When she came into the glider's room, I told her, "Hey Mary, watch this".

Now, she hasn't been in my house since before I started working with Bourbon and Donna (my pp glider). The last time she saw me with my gliders I was bitten while handing out treats in a bonding pouch, and Donna crabbed nonstop for 30 minutes after she tried to look in the pouch.

Anyway, "Hey Mary, watch THIS..." I reach into the pp pouch and scoop up Donna, hold her in my hands and scratch around her ears. Meanwhile... my cousin is standing there with her jaw dropped, eyes wide open. PRICELESS I tell ya! THen she whispers, "Is that Donna?" I said, "Yep, wanna pet her?" Well... I can't repeat on a G rated forum what she said, but needless to say she refused as SHE had also taken a bite from my fat girl at our last meeting.

I returned Donna to the cage, and still my cousin stood there with her mouth open. She actually accused me of getting another glider, telling me there was no way that was the same Donna. LOL

Nope, its NOT the same Donna! Its the new and improved happy and somewhat trusting Donna!

THANK YOU and MERRY CHRISTMAS BOURBON AND KARIN!!!!! I love you both!
Posted By: Holly1221

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/24/08 05:21 PM

Deanna, no i haven't ordered my PPpouches yet. but i'm going to. [probly after the holidays when everybody isn't so busy- that way i don't add stress to anybody here]

Robin ! hey that is GREAT ! i bet you were laughin your butt off huh ?

Day1
i read and talked to Misos and Lacee and Phoenix. [actually i started on the 22nd just to get myself into it] i did this every few hours, letting some space go between, sometimes an hour, sometimes 3 hours so they wouldn't get used to it and expect it. Misos and Lacee would sit on their cage door and watch me for a few minutes and then go play. sometimes it would take them a bit b4 they would go play & sometimes they'd just ignore me. Phoenix mostly sat on the side of his cage and watched me. he went and played while i was reading/talking to him once

Lacee isn't so crabby but i haven't been in the cage too much other than to get food bowls and to feed them. [she crabs a lot & tries to bite when i try to pick her up]

Phoenix has been sleeping a lot more in the daytime. he was so tired yesterday he never heard me reach in to get his food bowl. so i didn't get bit.

i didn't call Bourbon yesterday bc i was having some wicked stomach pains and had taken some pain killers and tylenol and knocked my butt out. i will call her later !

right now, all 3 gliders are sleeping...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/25/08 06:54 PM

Merry Christmas everyone from me, the gliders, and the dogs.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/25/08 07:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Holly1221
Robin ! hey that is GREAT ! i bet you were laughin your butt off huh ?


OH YEAH! That was pretty funny! She was so surprised, accusing me of swapping gliders. LOL Some people, including ME in the beginning, just cannot believe a glider can change like that.

Merry Christmas Everyone!!!!!
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/29/08 09:55 AM

Updates?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 12/30/08 01:07 AM

Update:

Pogo has stopped crabbing all together! She has become really used to me! I go in and pet her and she'll look up at me and go back to sleep. I also started putting my hand under her and leaving it there. She's not so tolerant of my mother.

Lilly is VERY seti n her ways. She is fine with licky treats on a spoon but not on a straw. When I try to give her the straw she jumps out of the pouch.

Last night we started introductions with each other. They like each other a lot! I'll post picsi n the Glider Talk section.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/02/09 08:09 AM

DAY 1: Talked to Bourbon for an hour and a half of her precious time, again, THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU! thanks
And am starting the journey...

The norm: Pae is super skittish and won't let me near her while in the cage, when out she just tries to find a place to hide. Nips at me sometimes but doesn't bite too much. If I came in the room while she was out of the her pouch she would just run STRAIGHT to her pouch and hide from the big, mean ol' me.

Emma is a crabby little thing. Poor girl. She's gotten better in the last couple days but still will ATTACK if I dared to put my hand in the pouch while she was awake. Bourbon asked, "What happens if you put your hand in the pouch?"... Well, if I want a hand to pull OUT of the pouch, I would NEVER attempt it! Hahaha. When out of the pouch, Emma let's us (hubby and I) pet and say hi to her but isn't interested in anything else and would run away from our hands to the pouch or another corner of the cage.

So I have my makeshift PP Pouch in there that I crafted from a piece of fleece and ordered the real deal a few minutes ago.

It's late so they would be awake anyways, Emma is running around with the "Where in tarnation did you put my wheel woman?!?!" look on her face. Pae is finally running around the page a BIT but for the most part just hiding in the corner. frown Emma keeps going up to her and checking every bit of Pae to make sure she's ok. It's cute to watch but hurts my heart too. I know it stresses her out. I also know that tomorrow will be worse as we have my husband's daughter staying with us and she's noisy and they aren't used to being in the living room. We've been in the living room more lately due to the holidays and such. But now that things are settling more we will most likely be in the office more... so we'll see where they end up. I don't know. confused

Feeling a bit overwhelmed by all of this... And going to be adopting a boy during this process... so that will add to the fun. Oy.

Time for bed. Been a long day. My brain is full! need_hug
Posted By: SugareeErin

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/02/09 09:00 AM

hug2 hug2 Don't worry your babies will be fine and soon you will see totally different behavior from them.

Bourbon has some really great tricks that work wonders!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/02/09 06:26 PM

Morning of Day 2: They are staying in the bottom corner of the cage.

Emma will NOT sleep without Pae and Pae doesn't do well with adjustment... so right now, Pae is curled up and "hiding" where she used to hide behind the wheel (which of course is no longer there). And Emma is trying to wrap herself around and sometimes under Pae.

Progress? When I open the door to say hello, Emma comes to do the door and checks things out. This would happen before but the progress is that I'm able to pet her without her running all over and her trying to bite me.

So I don't know what to think. I'm not going to stop doing this. I will follow the advice, I know that my gliders are not the exception to this rule about this working...
Posted By: Holly1221

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/02/09 07:33 PM

right now, things aren't so great with my home life so i'm gunna have re-start when i move out.. i have too much stress right now, and i believe it's being transferred to the gliders and i so don't want that ! need_hug

i gotta call later and explain everything to Bourbon. frown i usually feel like i'm bothering her..
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/02/09 07:55 PM

Oh Holly, if she answers the phone you are not bothering her! She does this because she wants to help out the gliders.


Jennifer, her coming to the cage door is a very good thing, means she trust that you are the one thing in her life that isn't out to get her. If she was upset with you or scared of you, she would have stayed in the corner crabbing at you to go away. There have been a few gliders in this thread that have refused to sleep in the makeshift pouch, and a few that hated the real thing when it arrived. Be patient, bc most of them get tired of snuggling in the back corner of the cage on the cold floor and eventually go to the pouch. You're doing great! Congrats on starting your journey!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/02/09 07:57 PM

Ok, Bourbon, you rock. It's official!

She called and walked me through things with the girls, it's the neatest experience! They are back in the corner sleeping but at least they have checked out the pouch and gotten some yummy treats in there. I put yogurt in a straw for them - HEAVEN! Was adorable to watch them chew on the straws trying to get more yummies. (this time we just gave them the straws and let them go to town with them)

Also, I was able to get Pae on my hand and let her climb around on my arms - usually she runs from my hand while in the cage!!! laugh

Still day 2 and they aren't in the make-shift pouch sleeping yet, but hopefully they'll get there. Especially as I start putting yummy treats in there for them.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/02/09 08:40 PM

Jennifer, you need to hold onto the straw for them to get the yummies. That's the purpose of the licky treats, so they will know the good stuff comes from YOUR loving hands. Got it? That is kind of a key thing in the process, the goodies have to come from YOU! "Oooohhhhh! Here comes that lady that has the good stuff!" You want your babies to fall in love with you, not just the straw full of yogurt.

When I first started with Bourbon, Donna would dart out of the pouch. What I had to do was show her the licky treat, maybe even let her have one tiny lick... thenwithdraw the treat and show her she had to be in the pouch to get it. I tell you, it takes some work, but she got there, and yours will too. Now whenever I open the cage door, no matter where they are in the cage, they FLY into that pouch to see what good stuff I have for them!!!!! Anything other than their regular diet comes from your hands, and only when they are in the open pouch. Bourbon had to beat all this into my thick skull. LOL But it really works.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/02/09 08:46 PM

Originally Posted By: BelladonnasMom
Jennifer, you need to hold onto the straw for them to get the yummies. That's the purpose of the licky treats, so they will know the good stuff comes from YOUR loving hands. Got it? That is kind of a key thing in the process, the goodies have to come from YOU! "Oooohhhhh! Here comes that lady that has the good stuff!" You want your babies to fall in love with you, not just the straw full of yogurt.


I had Bourbon on the phone with me, she was walking me through with what to do and everything. She told me to give the straws to the girls. We did a little of the lickies and then she said to fill the straw and give it to them.

I understand though. wink Just doing as instructed from Bourbon, I'm not going to just give them treats for staying on the bottom of the cage. At this point, I will be putting the treats IN the pouch and leaving them there until they start staying in the pouch then we'll continue with licky treats in the pouch. Also, when they had the straw this time I was petting them and letting them associate good stuff with my hands. Now the goal is the treats with the pouch then it will be treats from my hand/straw while IN the pouch... but they aren't staying in the pouch yet.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/02/09 09:07 PM

I didn't really take into account that Donna was so ferocious, Bourbon knows what she is doing and most likely tailoring what needs to be done with each glider individually. Of course you do what she says, I was trying to tell you what she had ME do, and that won't neccessarily work for everyone. LOL

But isn't it super cute they way they go after those straws???
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/02/09 09:21 PM

smile Thanks. I LOVE the way the go after straws super fun to watch!

AND even though they are sleeping in the corner still, I'm able to reach in a pet them lots and they just sit there, a couple times it has looked like Emma was going to bite or at least crab but nothing yet all day!!!! I'm not going to push it, I don't want her to crab or bite and that's my goal.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 03:47 AM

I'm sorry... you guys are getting a blow-by-blow account of what's happening here... But...

Day 2 evening: They were still sleeping in the corner of the cage, and would let me pet them and didn't seem happy but ZERO crabbing and ZERO biting. So I let them smell some yogurt in a straw and tempted them up to the make-shift PP Pouch. After Pae woke up she was running around the cage a bit, I was able to reach in and she crawled onto my hand. I took her out of the cage, held her a bit like Bourbon showed (or rather, told me) how to. Anyways, I put her into the pouch with the yogurt in straw and she was looking at me and eating, I left the door open and talked with her. Soon Emma was ALL over this and took her straw and was on the side of the cage eating. VERY HAPPY GIRL!

And NOW, they are both sleeping in the pouch together! I'm leaving them alone for a bit as Bourbon instructed but I'm SOOO excited!!!!

They do have one hand pulling a piece of fleece over their head, kind of like a teenager that doesn't want to wake up with the pillows pulled over their head. It's ADORABLE!!!

*sigh* day is getting better. Thank you all for your support! thanks
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 04:32 AM

Hey, the blow-by-blow makes you feel good and keeps you excited. Believe me, I know! LOL Not to mention others that are having the same issues as you, but don't have Bourbon personally helping can use this information for the good of THEIR gliders! So you post away girl.

YEAH for progress! Keep up the good work girl!
Posted By: thefotokat

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 04:32 PM

Originally Posted By: BelladonnasMom
I know how you feel Amanda. I felt so HORRIBLE taking out all their stuff! But Bourbon just kept telling me, "Are you getting bit? Are you getting crabbed at? Then YOU are the unhappy one, NOT the gliders."


I'm going to have to disagree w/that statement. I've been staying out of these posts, but I feel I have to speak up after reading that. Yes, this method will be successful because the glider is being forced to accept you. The glider is not being given a choice. I strongly feel this is causing undue stress and trauma to the glider. When you read about bonding, you will constantly see the reference to taking things at the glider's pace. Why then, is this method being used? To me, this is breaking their spirit. Some of these descriptions of the behavior I read sound to me like many of my rescues that have come in: scared. Is stripping away everything and forcing yourself...a big strange "thing"...on them a way to ease that fear? I don't think so. I'm going to make another comparison. I just watched the movie "Rendition". A man was taken hostage and tortured because they thought he had info they wanted. Through negative means, they broke his spirit until he did what they wanted just to make it stop. That's what this method makes me think of. I know that sounds extreme, but my belief is that this method is extreme. The glider is scared and the glider is NOT happy. Just because a glider isn't doing the "offensive" behavior (which, I must add, is offensive to us), does NOT mean it's happy. Gliders are extremely intelligent animals. They need enrichment to keep their minds entertained. Enrichment is toys, wheels, activity. By taking away all enrichment, the glider is being caused stress. Stress can increase the chance of illness. Stress should be avoided. Patience is the most important tool in bonding...regardless of the glider's behavior. I have worked w/crabby gliders, biters, lungers, terrified gliders. I have successfully earned their trust w/out using any negative methods. This method was recommended to me once. I listened to it and felt it to be cruel so I never did it. I have one use for pouch protective pouches: a sleeping area for gliders in an ecollar. That's it. Something everyone should remember is that gliders are unique and cannot be expected to react to us in the same way or a way we want or expect. By loving them, we must accept their personality. Some gliders enjoy being held while others don't. Forcing them to do any type of behavior is not kind. Time must be invested to earn trust. There's no easy or quick way out of that. I know that there are many folks who feel the way I do about this method. No one has posted because we know it won't be well received, but after reading the remark about the glider being happy JUST because they're not crabbing or biting forced me to post this. To me, that describes a glider whose spirit has been broken. I do not fault any of the newer folks who have followed this advice. I do want to remind everyone that we need to take any advice and decide for ourselves if it's sound. Not one member of this, or any board, is all knowing. It is up to each of us to decide what we feel is best for our gliders.
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 04:47 PM

agree
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 07:46 PM

There is a lot of things we are not agreeing on these days, and I am sorry you had to use this thread to add just one more thing..

we are not breaking their spirit, we are not using negative behavior to "take away" their offensive behavior.

In fact it is just the opposite, I am sure the owners of these gliders will come in here and respond. but I can tell you, I have seen these gliders that have been absolutely petrified, crabbing when someone enters the room, attacking the cage when someone enters, and watching these gliders now have the opportunity to run and jump and play more,they are loved on petted and is reciprocating that love, These gliders are getting far more attention without the fear of their environment, with the owners being afraid of being attacked, bitten, and lunged at.

I work with these gliders and am able to place them into homes, working with the owners, to continue their trust building.

Many of these people have already tried the other methods, they have done what everyone has told them to do, each glider is different, each glider has it's own set of issues, and each glider is being addressed according to those issues.

You have never had an opportunity to see me in person working with these scared gliders, working with the owners. You are judging my techniques that are proving to work, and is giving the gliders a far more enriching life that the fear filled life they had before.

I have had many many years of working with different trust building techniques. Instead of you judging techniques you yourself have never tried, or seen the results of, watching their eyes go from terrified to calm to trust, to where the gliders finally start building a trusting bond with their owners, instead of judging, let the owners speak, they have seen the differences in their gliders, they have seen the love in their eyes, they have heard the purrs, and the clicking instead of the crabbing and lunging and biting.

you don't like the techniques, don't use them, do what you do, help others with your techniques, I will continue to help the owners help their gliders.

I am not going to pretend that the crabbing lunging and biting are symptoms of happy gliders that feel safe
I am not going to pretend that these gliders are okay when they are shaking and attacking anything that approaches their pouch. I am not going to go with old methods that continued and still do, make some gliders cage gliders, and worse yet more gliders that enter rescue homes. I am not going to feed into the negativity that surrounds those that have their own agenda masking it as something it is not.
Posted By: thefotokat

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 08:44 PM

I am merely expressing my opinion on this method...not about any people involved. My opinon is a valid one and is based on behavior modification techniques. My belief is that stripping away all enrichment items is negative. Crabbing is a normal part of being a glider. Even happy gliders crab. I don't believe there is an across the board way to gain trust of gliders. There is no right way, but my opinon is that by removing all enrichment the glider's health is being jeopardized. Gliders need daily physical activity as well as emotional stimulus. If a glider has no enrichment items, it has no chance for physical and mental activity. That is my disagreement w/this method. I have not found studies w/truly positive results to this type of behavior modification. It is a forced trust. By allowing the glider enrichment items, you are giving it ways to stimulate its body and mind and work off excess energy. By giving them an output for that energy, the glider has an increased level of happiness. It is not only in gliders that negative reinforcement is used. The change in the "look in their eyes" is not necessarily one of trust and love, but one of resignation. Animals do learn, whether it be from postive or negative reinforcement. The question is what do they learn.
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 09:10 PM

There's so much I feel the need to say that I am afraid my post will lack organization, so I apologize if that is the case. Please bear with me as I sort through my reactions to these posts.

As far as "Are you getting bit? Are you getting crabbed at? Then YOU are the unhappy one, NOT the gliders."...I don't think anyone meant to insinuate that the gliders are HAPPY that first night when we took all of their stuff out of the cage. Bourbon was just trying to get Robin to understand that progress had already been made-the ferocious Donna was no longer crabbing or biting. Clearly the glider wasn't happy at this point. I'm sure that most gliders are feeling confused and are still very nervous after having their stuff removed from the cage. The point of that statement was moral support for the people feeling awful as they look at their empty cage.

Regarding the method itself...I TRIED everything I read on here. I TRIED everything everyone else told me, everything I read on every thread and every breeders website on this forum. I did MASS amounts of research trying to find something that would work to quell the fear of my Ranger, a pouch protective glider for sure. In six months we had made NO progress. None. I can't pinpoint ONE difference in how much Ranger DIDN'T trust me from the first day I got him to the day before I started working with Bourbon. You may write this off as "Oh she wasn't doing the methods correctly," or "Oh she wasn't taking it at the gliders pace," but I assure you, I did the BEST I could following these other methods because I desperately wanted Ranger to no longer be afraid.

The thing about Ranger is that I honestly believe that fear blinds him. When he is crabbing, he is completely terrified. He can't rationalize! When he was sleeping in a normal pouch he would crab and lunge if someone happened to be in the same room as his cage. Naturally, he wasn't about to come out to see what was making all of those sounds because he was SCARED! EVERYTHING was scary to him. The purpose of the PP pouch is so that the glider can SEE what is making those sounds around him. When he sees these things, he realizes that even when these sounds are made, no one is coming toward him, no one is being aggressive toward him, no one is going to hurt him. Some gliders do need to be "forced" to do this-like I said, Ranger wasn't about to come out of that pouch on his own.

In this method, the glider is not being "forced" to accept anyone. The way you described Bourbon's method is the same way I describe PPP's method (you know-cover your finger in nasty tasting stuff and shove it to the back of the gliders mouth, as far as you can, for five minutes or more every time the glider bites). THAT is breaking its spirit. THAT is
forcing the glider to accept you. Each of the steps in Bourbon's method is taken at the gliders pace. You talk to them outside of the cage until they are no longer scared of that...you talk to them inside of the cage until they are no longer scared of that, etc.

For months I saw Ranger terrified. He came out for playtime and that was it. I could see the blind fear in his eyes. And now he rides around with me all day. He gives me kisses and chirps in my ear, and just TRY to get him off my hand when it's time to go back in the cage cloud9 These are not actions of a glider whose spirit has been broken, who has "resigned" to act the way I "want" him to. These are the actions of a glider who is no longer fearful of things he cannot see.

My gliders are not sick, and not all of their enrichment toys are removed in this process, only toys that they can hide behind. I have tail carriers and they have plastic wrist bangles in their cage that they run all over the place. They get to play with their straws, and they play with each other. I am pretty much nocturnal, so I see them at night and I assure you, they are not bored or stressed, they act the same as they did before I took all of the stuff out of their cage. I don't think they liked half of the toys I picked out for them anyway lol.

I know this is a really long post, so I'm sorry. I felt the need to thoroughly explain why I don't feel that this method is at all cruel or unusual.
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 09:13 PM

You are right IF they are totally stripped of all their enrichments, but those are enrichments based on what you think is enriching.

the wheel is only removed if they start to sleep in it, or use it to hide behind, the only things that are removed is those items, there is lots of enriching toys left in, they have plenty of thing to climb and jump to, in fact many that have the stealths are still using their wheels. funny, but I was trying to address all of your issues regarding this and it seems that "the people" you are talking about is responding based on really not knowing how things are truly done.

now lets take the impression that others have that it is like sticking them in a closet and only allowing them out if they are good, this is totally wrong, in fact it is just the opposite, the pouch should represent the closet, where it is dark, and the sounds they hear is what they are responding to, responding with their fear at that. the pouch protective pouch opens up their environment so that they can identify the sounds, and so that they can see that the movements in the room and near the cage is not aggressive moves towards them. they start to feel safe when they realize that those sounds are not out to get them.

The owners do not FORCE themselves on their glider, again this is just the opposite to what is really going on in these cages. they do work at the gliders pace as to at what point the glider trusts them to continue to the next steps.

The owners are EARNING the gliders trust, they can not just go in there and start picking them up, dumping them into bonding pouches, the glider voluntarily goes to them, they go to playtime because they want to be on the owner, not because they are being forced or deprived for that matter.

It seems these people are making great strides, for many reasons, and they are doing an awesome job at it as well.

They are learning to read their gliders eyes, and body language, they are looking at life more through the gliders eyes, they feel the fear the glider experienced as well as any additional.

if a glider feels safe outside of the pouch, why would someone want to MAKE them stay in a place where they are in fear of someone invading their space?

you are right, trust is earned, and sometimes it takes more than just being around them to earn that trust,

and many times, the old methods instill more distrust issues instead of reducing the fear. after all do you really think the glider cares whether or not you just want to be their friend, when someone is chasing them around the cage trying to catch them to take them out for playtime, or to put them into a bonding pouch, do you think the glider cares what your intentions are when they are being carried around, bounced around in a closed pouch that they feel scared in, talk about losing control of their environment. they are being forced to do things that many owners think is natural. The wheels are a great enrichment tool, but it is just that a tool, a toy. they run and run, and go no where, the gliders like the wheel, but honestly there is not one in the wild, they run around their cage, play with their toys climb their ropes vines and when THEY are ready, they come out for playtime.

The owners are taught hand trust techniques to teach their gliders their hands are good things.They tech their glider their face, their voice so the glider finds comfort and feels safe with them.

a lot of talk about techniques that have not been tried or even been considered, maybe looking for the good in the techniques rather than the speculations of what you may want to think they are could open a whole new world to trust building for the scared gliders out there.

tell me you haven't seen these "vocal" gliders crabbing and being "startled" in their pouch, when many times they are out of the pouch, they are fine, very trusting, no crabbing, no attacking no lunging.

by your standards posted here, taking the pouch away and working with them out of the pouch is wrong, why not work with them in an environment they feel safer in? If they felt safer in the pouch, they would crab and lunge outside of the pouch and be much calmer in the pouch.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 09:14 PM

I did a little reseach, something about this method was reminding me of something that I couldn't put my finger on, then it hit me, "Stockholm Syndrome."

Stockholm Syndrome or "traumatic bonding" occurs when a person or animal (there has been testing on mice to see if this syndrome really occurs and it was proven) is placed in a situation where they feel they no longer have control, they are isolated from any and everything but their captors. They feel intense fear, the fear of being harmed and having no escape.
All control is in the hands of their captor.

A stragedy for survival kicks in, the victims start responding in a compliant way as a tatic for survival.

Traumatic bonding can be defined as an attachment to a perpetrator/captor during a period of extreme stress and fear in an oppresive situation. The tiniest act of kindness from the captor is inflated the the minds of the victim and they develop a warped love for their perpetrator.

Just wanted to share my thoughts.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 09:18 PM

I have used (and am currently using) this method with gliders. The little girl I am currently working with, Sassy, came to me because she kept bloodying her owner. This behavior started at 3 weeks oop for this little girl. I've had here here for 3 days now.

She has a wheel and a couple of toys she is unable to "hide" in. She also gets a blanket to sleep under but one that is easy for her to look out from under if she chooses too. She gets interaction from me constantly through the day and night (about every 2-3 hours) and she is NOT responding out of resignation at all. She is alert, perky, active and I believe, even entertained by my attemtps to NOT get bit by her. She eagerly comes up to my hand now and "checks me out" to see if I am going to play with her or feed her or give her belly rubs. YES, day two and I was giving her belly and chin rubs and trust me, what I saw on her face was NOT resignation but contintment. While I'm not ready to put her in my bra, I don't expect it will be long before SHE decides to be a bra baby. And I have NOT used any food as bribery but just a soft voice and a gentle hand. With Sassy, the food isn't needed so isn't used with her. It is not part of "our plan of action" with Sassy.

I know for a FACT that Bourbon does not put a "blanket method" onto these gliders she is working with. She addresses not only the glider's "issues" but the owner's issues as well. Trust building is a two way street. Not only does the glider need to learn to trust the human but the human needs to put aside their own "issues" and "expectations" (both good and bad) in order to learn to trust the glider as well. Sassy's owner EXPECTED to get bit so she got bit and bit badly. I expect Sassy to be the sweet girl I know she really is and so far, she has been that sweet baby.

Kate, I was an active witness with Shelle's work with Buffy. About 2 years or so before Shelle started this method with Buffy, I fostered Buffy (and 10 other gliders) for Shelle for 3 months. I KNOW what Buffy was like then. I have been to Shelle's numerous times to help her clip nails and such and have seen Buffy NUMEROUS times over the past few years. Shelle showed patience and love for 2 YEARS with Buffy. Shelle believed that if she did not do "tent time" with Buffy for 2 hours or more a day then she was neglecting Buffy. She believed that she HAD to take the bites and if she did, Buffy would stop biting her. These things only lead to 2 years of Buffy still being terrified of everything. It lead to 2 years of Buffy chewing on Shelle and leaving SCARS on Shelle (not to mention the scar on me from one of Buffy's pit bull bites) and it did NOTHING for Buffy's sense of security. I saw Buffy 5 days AFTER the introduction of the ppp and she was calm, self secure and not in a panic over every single noise and movement around her. Buffy still has her "attitude" and she still has her "moody" days where she will take a chunck of skin but now she is able to come out and play and have fun interaction with Shelle AND her 6 yr old daughter without the blood shed. And I can tell you that Buffy IS a happy glider now and her spirit is NOT in any way broken.

So for you to say this "method" is cruel is based on your LACK of first hand experience with this "method". Again, this "method" is not a black and white issue but one adapted for each glider and each owner. And it IS working. NONE of the gliders I have used this with have had their spirit broken. Quite the opposite. They have developed self confidence and have learned to trust that they are safe from harm. They have become both more cuddlely but also more playful and out going.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 09:28 PM

Oh, and I want to add here too about Buffy. The ppp was NOT a permenant cage addition. Buffy now sleeps in a regular cage pouch or one of Connie's tents and does NOT have the fear reactions she once had every time she hears a noise. Now, she will crawl out of the pouch to peek or to the door of the tent to peek BEFORE she reacts. She does NOT have that "gut reaction to fear" that she once had. She has learned that most noises are not a threat to her.
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 09:35 PM

Quote:
is placed in a situation where they feel they no longer have control, they are isolated from any and everything but their captors. They feel intense fear, the fear of being harmed and having no escape.
All control is in the hands of their tormentor.


this is very interesting and totally inconsistent with these techniques, in fact it is totally the opposite,

when they are in the bonding pouch, who has control?
when they are in the bottom of a regular pouch with only one way out and humans are there, who has control?

fact is by exposing them to their environment, they can run away, they can "escape" out the back out the sides out the top. and that gives the glider control of their environment. If they don't want to be petted they will tell you, if they want to be left alone they will tell you, and they also have the option to move away from you.

funny thing about animals when they get afraid they have the basic animal instincts of fight or flight, sadly their flight many times ends them up in places they can not escape from..

Example, I received a call from Australia, during the wild fires, the gliders stayed deep in their holes high in the trees, out of fear, many many gliders and other tree dwelling animals died in those fires.


when you see a glider who is afraid, what do they do? they either lunge, bite, crab, strike or if the fight doesn't work they flight, run into their pouch to hide, thinking if they can't see us, they are safe. where as they are actually placing themselves into a more controlling situation, because to be honest, if a glider runs to it's pouch out of fear, does he really feel safe? or does he continue to crab out of fear till he "hears" no noises.. which at that time he feels safe. so tell me about stress factors of a glider that crabs each time the cage door is moved, or when the pouch is moved.. that stress last over and over and over again, time after time after time.
Posted By: thefotokat

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 09:48 PM

Teresa, I know that it was successful w/Shelle and Buffy. That was an extreme case w/different behavior. I am merely expressing my opinion on this method based on some reading I've done w/behavior modifications. As I've stated, my concern is for the stress caused by lack of enrichment items and the behaviors it's being used on.

Originally Posted By: sugareeErin
[/Originally Posted By: Bourbon
erin could you tell what shadow was like AT THE TIME I started working with you so others can keep track of your progress


Sure thing Shadow was very crabby in his pouch still, he would crab when I touched it and tried to put my hands inside of it. I would pet him and sooth him and he would stop after a bit, but would start up again frequently as I carried him around. He would be quiet some of the time I carried him, but only if he wasn't being bothered.

He was also starting to jump on me in the tent and come to me for treats and to check me out. He even had even climbed over my hand a couple times. I was able to pet him without him running away a couple times (the first time I posted a video of it). So he was at the point of starting to be curious about me and trusting me a little bit. He was still very flighty though and would usually run off from me when I wanted to pet him or trying to have him on me.


Reading this description of behavior does not sound like abnormal or severe behavior. It sounds like a glider who hasn't settled in w/its owner. I don't agree w/rushing a glider to act the way that we desire by using this method. Crabbing when disturbed is not abnormal behavior. It's similar to a person being grumpy when awakened from sleep. There needs to be understanding that gliders' normal behavior may not be desirable to us.
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 09:56 PM

I don't feel that crabbing can be compared to a person being grumpy when awakened from sleep. Gliders crab out of fear, not out of 'grumpiness'. Crabbing is like a person screaming their head off because they are walking up a dark alley at night, defenseless, and someone is about to attack them.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 09:58 PM

Originally Posted By: thefotokat
I am merely expressing my opinion on this method...not about any people involved. My opinon is a valid one and is based on behavior modification techniques. My belief is that stripping away all enrichment items is negative. Crabbing is a normal part of being a glider. Even happy gliders crab. I don't believe there is an across the board way to gain trust of gliders. There is no right way, but my opinon is that by removing all enrichment the glider's health is being jeopardized. Gliders need daily physical activity as well as emotional stimulus. If a glider has no enrichment items, it has no chance for physical and mental activity. That is my disagreement w/this method. I have not found studies w/truly positive results to this type of behavior modification. It is a forced trust. By allowing the glider enrichment items, you are giving it ways to stimulate its body and mind and work off excess energy. By giving them an output for that energy, the glider has an increased level of happiness. It is not only in gliders that negative reinforcement is used. The change in the "look in their eyes" is not necessarily one of trust and love, but one of resignation. Animals do learn, whether it be from postive or negative reinforcement. The question is what do they learn.

Before I tried this method, my glider was scared to death of me! She would shake to pieces, cower in her pouch and hide from me screaming and fighting to keep me away from her. I offer her the open pouch, show her there is nothing to fear, and now she sees me coming and does not fear the unknown anymore... no more screaming and fighting! She comes to me now, literally FLIES into that pouch for me to pet her, feed her treats and talk to her. She will sit there on her little hiney and listen to me talk, chattering and squeeking at me even if I don't offer her treats. She voluntarily gets on my hand, and looks at me with bright inquisitive eyes, wrapping her tiny lil hands around my fingers and my heart. In the end, the only thing I took away from my gliders was lonely forgotten existence in a cage with no attention, only animosity and fear.

My personal opinion... this is OUR thread to show our progress with OUR gliders, and to get necessary information on THIS method and share our experiences with others that want to give it a try. This is not the place for you to jump in and try to undermine the route we have chosen to try and interact with our gliders. By doing this you take away from our experiences. To me it breaks down to flaming... but that's just my opinion. Oh, and the opinion of the person who sent your message to me via PM very upset, and wondering if she should respond.


And BTW... I never took out their wheel, hanging toy or foraging toy... so their enrichment items never went away. All I took away was the means of hiding. When a child is afriad of the dark, you provide a night lite, thaking away the darkness htey fear; when a drug addict is afraid of the world, you take away their means of hiding from it... the drug! We are merely letting in the light! And it is working.
Posted By: thefotokat

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 10:00 PM

In this method, though, the glider is not running from you into the pouch. They are being disturbed while sleeping in their pouch. They really can't move away from you if they don't want to have you there. Yes, they can run out of the pouch, but they have no where to go. They are totally exposed which is the basis of this method. By removing everything except the person, all their choices are taken away. Even the pouch is not a safe place for them. My main point is that it seems this method is being used on gliders exhibiting normal, but not desirable, behavior. Gliders, as we are so stridently trying to educate, are unique and do not bond, act or react in the same way. The key is accepting gliders for their unique personalities and not forcing our expectations on them. Just because a glider doesn't want to be held, or crabs, or won't ride in your bra doesn't mean it's not happy or doesn't trust you. It may just be their comfort level. Why is there the need to push a glider beyond its comfort level?
Posted By: thefotokat

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 10:04 PM

The purpose of having any respectful discussion and sharing of ideas and opinons is how we learn. Whatever method someone chooses is up to them. However, we must be willing to listen to opposing ideas and opinions or we lose the chance at knowledge and the ability to make an informed decision.
Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 10:05 PM

Originally Posted By: DeeDancer
I don't feel that crabbing can be compared to a person being grumpy when awakened from sleep. Gliders crab out of fear, not out of 'grumpiness'. Crabbing is like a person screaming their head off because they are walking up a dark alley at night, defenseless, and someone is about to attack them.


I'm sorry - but I will disagree. Sometimes, yes, crabbing means that they are scared. However, crabbing is also a way glider's express themselves. A "go away" crab does NOT necessarily mean they are scared. I have one glider that crabs at his meal worms while he is biting their heads off. He is not scared, nor does he want the worm to go away, he is just expressing himself.
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 10:07 PM

There's a difference between a glider that doesn't want to be held or isn't a bra baby and one that lives in constant fear, terrified of every slight movement or sound outside of its pouch. We are "pushing" these gliders "beyond their comfort level" because their comfort level is to be in their cage all day long with no one coming into the room (let alone any other interaction), because those things are scary. What kind of life is that? We are doing this so that the gliders are no longer scared, so that the gliders can learn to trust and be happier (and healthier, because they will no longer be frightened and stressed about every little sound) in the long run.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 10:08 PM

I think that what you all are doing is absolutely wonderful. Showing these gliders that there is nothing to be afraid of and helpin them experience love and affection is a beautiful thing! I think that pouch-protectiveness isn't necessarily a personality trait moreso than a behavior trait that almost always has a cause, wether it be lack of attention or abuse or bad diet etc. etc. I'm so happy to read all of these posts and learn about the great successes of bonding with uch-protective gliders. You all sound like you are making such wonderful progress with your babies, and I hope it onyl gets better! it sounds like everyone has happier, healthier gliders from when they first came to you all. Great job!
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 10:08 PM

But are you listening to ours as well? or just forcing your opinions, ? based on your own speculations, ?

I have used old techniques, and still do at times depending on the glider itself. you have not used these techniques.

you just heard from 2 people who use these techniques, and have chosen to totally ignore what they were saying. so where does the education come in?
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 10:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

I'm sorry - but I will disagree. Sometimes, yes, crabbing means that they are scared. However, crabbing is also a way glider's express themselves. A "go away" crab does NOT necessarily mean they are scared. I have one glider that crabs at his meal worms while he is biting their heads off. He is not scared, nor does he want the worm to go away, he is just expressing himself.


You're completely right. I was referring to pouch protective gliders that are crabbing in their pouches when someone walks by. I believe this is more than likely out of fear (though it does depend on the glider, I recognize that). I'm sorry that I wasn't clear.
Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 10:13 PM

Originally Posted By: BelladonnasMom

My personal opinion... this is OUR thread to show our progress with OUR gliders, and to get necessary information on THIS method and share our experiences with others that want to give it a try. This is not the place for you to jump in and try to undermine the route we have chosen to try and interact with our gliders. By doing this you take away from our experiences. To me it breaks down to flaming... but that's just my opinion. Oh, and the opinion of the person who sent your message to me via PM very upset, and wondering if she should respond.


Robin - when you only allow for discussion that is in agreement with you - when you only welcome those that agree with you, then you are dangerously close to creating a cult-like mentality. This is not that. This is a DISCUSSION FORUM. THerefore, all opinions SHOULD be welcome. I, personally, have used this method years ago and would never do so again. I base my opinion on my 14 years of behavioral modification experience and on the results I have seen with my method in my home. NO ONE has said that Bourbon's method does not work. Therefore, nothing has been taken from your experience. Just because someone disagrees does not mean there is an attack. This forum - and all others - should willingly accept the opinions of others - even if they differ from your own. As long as things are presented respectfully, there is no reason there can't be some healty debate. In the end, Bourbon won't be changing her mind/beliefs and I doubt those that disagree with this method will be changing theirs either. Isn't it nice that there is more than one way to achieve desirable results? Isn't it nice that there is more than one method for bonding with your glider? After all, since all gliders are different, and all people's personalities are different, don't we NEED to have more than one method? That is NOT a bad thing. People are allowed to disagree, aren't they?
Posted By: thefotokat

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 10:14 PM

I'm not ignoring anyone. I said that the technique can be successful in my first post. I am merely stating my opinon on it and saying that there needs to be an understanding of what is normal behavior and that gliders act/react differently. I've seen times where someone wants a glider to act the way they think it should and loses focus on how the glider thinks it should act. I'm just voicing another side to this method. I've listened to the method and I've responded. Nothing more and nothing less.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 10:16 PM

Originally Posted By: DeeDancer
I don't feel that crabbing can be compared to a person being grumpy when awakened from sleep. Gliders crab out of fear, not out of 'grumpiness'. Crabbing is like a person screaming their head off because they are walking up a dark alley at night, defenseless, and someone is about to attack them.


Gliders crab because that is there way of saying, "go away." Gliders that are truly terrifed like you described above usually do one of two things, they will flee or they will fight. When you have a truly scared glider like what you describe above, in my experience they usually attack or run, not crab.

I have gliders that like to hear themselves crab, they crab their heads off. I'll talk to them and they'll crab. I can also reach right in their pouch, scoop them up and kiss both of them on their heads.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 10:19 PM

I reiterate my earlier statement... what started out as a place of joy for us in this process of becoming friends with our gliders has now become a battle ground!

When you take your glider out of the cage in a closed pouch, they have zero means of excape. Whereas when I go to take the open pouch out of the cage, my babies have the option to get out of it and stay in the cage. I am actually giving my gliders more options and comtrol over their lives and circumstance than say taking out a closed up closed in pouch that they are forced to stay in.
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 10:21 PM

Originally Posted By: TWilson

Gliders crab because that is there way of saying, "go away." Gliders that are truly terrifed like you described above usually do one of two things, they will flee or they will fight. When you have a truly scared glider like what you describe above, in my experience they usually attack or run, not crab.

I have gliders that like to hear themselves crab, they crab their heads off. I'll talk to them and they'll crab. I can also reach right in their pouch, scoop them up and kiss both of them on their heads.



Again, sorry for being unclear. Please see my response to Jackie_Chans_Mom:

Originally Posted By: DeeDancer

You're completely right. I was referring to pouch protective gliders that are crabbing in their pouches when someone walks by. I believe this is more than likely out of fear (though it does depend on the glider, I recognize that). I'm sorry that I wasn't clear.
Posted By: thefotokat

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 10:23 PM

I'm confused as to where the idea that the only other alternative to this method is taking your gliders out in a closed pouch?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 10:23 PM

All I have to say is... Just as there is no one right or wrong way to raise a child, there is not one wrong or right way to raise a glider.

Bourbon has a knack for helping people see the world through a gliders eyes. Just because her method works for some, it may not for others. Just as the pouch protective pouch did NOT work for us.

That aside, we came up with a solution, my babies don't crab when I walk into the room, they don't lunge at my hand or bite me.

I now have 4 babies that run to the cage door to greet me when I feed them, that ignore me when I am in THEIR room making noise and try to get out of the cage to come see me.

I did not have hours long conversations with Bourbon. I have spoken with her many times, bounced some ideas off her, listened to what she said. But, when it came down to it, I used a combination of her ideas and mine. I may not have had overnight success but it is success nonetheless.

So, if you don't like her methods, then fine. If you do, keep doing what you're doing girls.

I just think the whole purpose of this thread was for moral support and sharing progress. Not a debate over the method itself.
Posted By: thefotokat

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 10:26 PM

Also, why is it that a different point of view is termed a "battleground"? There has been no disrespectful statements made, simply contradictory views expressed. There is so much that can be learned from others. You don't have to agree...as we don't here...but it doesn't make any view less worthy of being voiced. I advocate a different method, that's all, for reasons I've posted.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 10:27 PM

Originally Posted By: DelilahsMom


I just think the whole purpose of this thread was for moral support and sharing progress. Not a debate over the method itself.



BRAVO BRITTNEY!!! Well said!!!!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 10:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Lizz
I think that what you all are doing is absolutely wonderful. Showing these gliders that there is nothing to be afraid of and helpin them experience love and affection is a beautiful thing! I think that pouch-protectiveness isn't necessarily a personality trait moreso than a behavior trait that almost always has a cause, wether it be lack of attention or abuse or bad diet etc. etc. I'm so happy to read all of these posts and learn about the great successes of bonding with uch-protective gliders. You all sound like you are making such wonderful progress with your babies, and I hope it onyl gets better! it sounds like everyone has happier, healthier gliders from when they first came to you all. Great job!


Thank you Lizz! You are one lucky glider slave to have gotten older gliders that are so friendly and spoiled. But if any problems develop... you know where to find us! LOL
Posted By: LSardou

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 10:29 PM

Originally Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom
This forum - and all others - should willingly accept the opinions of others - even if they differ from your own. As long as things are presented respectfully, there is no reason there can't be some healthy debate. In the end, Bourbon won't be changing her mind/beliefs and I doubt those that disagree with this method will be changing theirs either. Isn't it nice that there is more than one way to achieve desirable results? Isn't it nice that there is more than one method for bonding with your glider? After all, since all gliders are different, and all people's personalities are different, don't we NEED to have more than one method? That is NOT a bad thing. People are allowed to disagree, aren't they?


Very well said Val! clap
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 10:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Dancing
I have used (and am currently using) this method with gliders. The little girl I am currently working with, Sassy, came to me because she kept bloodying her owner. This behavior started at 3 weeks oop for this little girl. I've had here here for 3 days now.

Kate, I was an active witness with Shelle's work with Buffy. About 2 years or so before Shelle started this method with Buffy, I fostered Buffy (and 10 other gliders) for Shelle for 3 months. I KNOW what Buffy was like then. I have been to Shelle's numerous times to help her clip nails and such and have seen Buffy NUMEROUS times over the past few years. Shelle showed patience and love for 2 YEARS with Buffy. Shelle believed that if she did not do "tent time" with Buffy for 2 hours or more a day then she was neglecting Buffy. She believed that she HAD to take the bites and if she did, Buffy would stop biting her. These things only lead to 2 years of Buffy still being terrified of everything. It lead to 2 years of Buffy chewing on Shelle and leaving SCARS on Shelle (not to mention the scar on me from one of Buffy's pit bull bites) and it did NOTHING for Buffy's sense of security. I saw Buffy 5 days AFTER the introduction of the ppp and she was calm, self secure and not in a panic over every single noise and movement around her. Buffy still has her "attitude" and she still has her "moody" days where she will take a chunck of skin but now she is able to come out and play and have fun interaction with Shelle AND her 6 yr old daughter without the blood shed. And I can tell you that Buffy IS a happy glider now and her spirit is NOT in any way broken.

So for you to say this "method" is cruel is based on your LACK of first hand experience with this "method". Again, this "method" is not a black and white issue but one adapted for each glider and each owner. And it IS working. NONE of the gliders I have used this with have had their spirit broken.


Teresa, I totally agree with your statement, you are an experienced glider owner and know the difference in normal glider behavior and a pit bull, pouch protective glider, I don't disagree with you at all. What you are describing are hard case gliders, not your normal coming to a new home, to new parents and strange surroundings.

Normal gliders exhibit the same behavior, they crab, run, and generally show their displeasure towards you. I thought my first glider was broken when I got him, he hated me and reading all the stories about putting them in your bra made me cry.
I did learn that this IS what gliders do and read everything there was about bonding that is recommended for NORMAL glider behavior and it worked. My Oscar loves to be in my bra now, it took time but we formed a strong bond.

I just think that using the methods that have been described for what I've read about these gliders, is unnecessary. These gliders that are currently using this method exhibit normal behavior, not anything like Buffy. I worry that newbies will want to do this right off the bat, after all everyone wants a cuddle bug immediately and we know that gliders are not puppies, they behave differently and take patience.

Call me old fashioned or whatever, but I don't think these methods are necessary for normal, new glider behavior.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 10:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom
Originally Posted By: BelladonnasMom

My personal opinion... this is OUR thread to show our progress with OUR gliders, and to get necessary information on THIS method and share our experiences with others that want to give it a try. This is not the place for you to jump in and try to undermine the route we have chosen to try and interact with our gliders. By doing this you take away from our experiences. To me it breaks down to flaming... but that's just my opinion. Oh, and the opinion of the person who sent your message to me via PM very upset, and wondering if she should respond.


Robin - when you only allow for discussion that is in agreement with you - when you only welcome those that agree with you, then you are dangerously close to creating a cult-like mentality. This is not that. This is a DISCUSSION FORUM. THerefore, all opinions SHOULD be welcome. I, personally, have used this method years ago and would never do so again. I base my opinion on my 14 years of behavioral modification experience and on the results I have seen with my method in my home. NO ONE has said that Bourbon's method does not work. Therefore, nothing has been taken from your experience. Just because someone disagrees does not mean there is an attack. This forum - and all others - should willingly accept the opinions of others - even if they differ from your own. As long as things are presented respectfully, there is no reason there can't be some healty debate. In the end, Bourbon won't be changing her mind/beliefs and I doubt those that disagree with this method will be changing theirs either. Isn't it nice that there is more than one way to achieve desirable results? Isn't it nice that there is more than one method for bonding with your glider? After all, since all gliders are different, and all people's personalities are different, don't we NEED to have more than one method? That is NOT a bad thing. People are allowed to disagree, aren't they?


My point was that we all got involved in this thread to talk about our experiencs with this particular train of thought. To share our successes and joys of getting to know our gliders better and be able to interact with them. An alternative means to this end would be better placed in a different thread don't you think? The very first entry in this thread was about Erin and her talking to Bourbon. And the ones involved really wanted this to be a place to talk about just that. Not to debate or say disparaging things about anyone involved. I just don't see the point in coming in at this late date and take away from that. I myslef was perfectly capable of searching out other thread and finding other ways to deal with this issue. I didn't agree with the other ways, and the ones I tried didn't work. But I didn't step in and argue with the other ways.... I just went the other way... and looked for something positive to get involved in. Why must someone always step in and be negative???
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 10:56 PM

I have read what the little group has said, I have tried to address each issue, seems that now the drama has set in, you all have succeeded in drawing attention away from these techniques that work for some, and seems these people don't agree. but i guess they will continue to harp and harp on each post regardless of what is said.


Kate, and Val I am so sorry you have chosen to bring your personal vendettas onto this thread that was set to help others BY people that were using the techniques that was working for them. I now will bow out of this thread, for those that still want help, you know how to reach me, I left the drama behind many months ago, and I will continue to stay on this path of drama free. I will continue to help the gliders in spite of what you all think I should do with my life and my time,

You have not come in here with questions, nor with the desire to really understand how the techniques work.

Robin, dee, connie, erin, jen, chasity, chris,laura, lisa,Nikki, tara,and cindy..

you all have worked very hard to gain the trust of your gliders, in spite of what others want to make it seem like, you have done so with your gliders best interest in mind, looking at life through their eyes, feeling what they feel, and working hard to make them feel safe and secure.

sadly I will have this same group following me , trying to undermine anything good that I do in the community. Have faith in yourself. love those babies. and show them the life that they will enjoy and cherish.

as I said before, I am sorry that you all had to infiltrate a great thread mainly with posts by the people that was working the hardest.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 11:00 PM

I for one will continue to come around and post good things, and praise the others hard work, yet refrain from responding to the nagativity.

The encouragement and kind words that can be found in this thread are what kept me at it when I got frustrated and wanted to give up.

Lets keep up the good work girls! Bring on the progress reports! How are your babies doing today????
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 11:04 PM

Yeah, for being so detailed earlier I haven't heard anything from Jen today. What have ya got for us girl?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 11:11 PM

LOL Dee! I have to stay up pretty late to wait for updates since these little guys do so much better with social skills when its late at night, being nocturnal and all.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 11:18 PM

I can tell you that my crazy pair can now be out around people, held and be allowed to play with company. And, my baby loves bras.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 11:38 PM

Hey Brittney... Imagine my 14 year old son's shock to have Bella dive down the front of his shirt frantically looking for a cup to snuggle in! LOL She needed her nails clipped too... he shows the battle wounds today. smile
Posted By: gliderdad79

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/03/09 11:51 PM

Originally Posted By: Bourbon
I have read what the little group has said, I have tried to address each issue, seems that now the drama has set in, you all have succeeded in drawing attention away from these techniques that work for some, and seems these people don't agree. but i guess they will continue to harp and harp on each post regardless of what is said.


Kate, and Val I am so sorry you have chosen to bring your personal vendettas onto this thread that was set to help others BY people that were using the techniques that was working for them. I now will bow out of this thread, for those that still want help, you know how to reach me, I left the drama behind many months ago, and I will continue to stay on this path of drama free. I will continue to help the gliders in spite of what you all think I should do with my life and my time,

You have not come in here with questions, nor with the desire to really understand how the techniques work.

Robin, dee, connie, erin, jen, chasity, chris,laura, lisa,Nikki, tara,and cindy..

you all have worked very hard to gain the trust of your gliders, in spite of what others want to make it seem like, you have done so with your gliders best interest in mind, looking at life through their eyes, feeling what they feel, and working hard to make them feel safe and secure.

sadly I will have this same group following me , trying to undermine anything good that I do in the community. Have faith in yourself. love those babies. and show them the life that they will enjoy and cherish.

as I said before, I am sorry that you all had to infiltrate a great thread mainly with posts by the people that was working the hardest.


Now I will step in. There has been no drama in this thread one bit Lori. There has been nothing but healthy debate, discussions, and opinions in which our rules state will be left as long as they follow the rules. As far as i can see no personal issues have been brought up except you stating there is personal issues involved.

I am sorry that you feel its drama because some don't agree with you on this topic but it is not. The admin, owners, and mods are the only ones who decided if a post is indeed a drama post.

Everyone is entiled to their own thoughts, beliefs, and opinions. It is not a crime to disagree, please keep it within the rules. Please lets get this post back on topic and keep drama and personal issues off of here.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/04/09 12:11 AM

Originally Posted By: DeeDancer
Yeah, for being so detailed earlier I haven't heard anything from Jen today. What have ya got for us girl?


HAHA Thanks Dee. Was just looking over things, have been busy with my hubby's kids today (and my own furry ones too...)

Day 3: Aside from ferret bites (I have a mouthy baby that's starting to assert himself on the older male and had to separate them with Bourbon on the phone, sorry Bourbon. *sigh*)

Was able to feed the girls off of my FINGER!!! No bites at all! They were very disappointed when I did 3 licks x3 each. But they didn't grab at me or bite AT ALL! Emma jumped forward towards my finger, I expected teeth but was all tongue! They had never had that kind of yogurt before so it was really cute - they loved it!

They slept in the make-shift pouch yesterday evening but were in another corner of the cage this morning. But when I say hello to them and pet them etc, no shaking, no biting, no crabbing. It's amazing!

I took Pae out on my hand (and she didn't want to go back in) and showed her to my husband's kids (from a distance as we are working on hand trust issues right now). They thought it was awesome. I explained that I'm working with them on a new method and that I haven't heard them crab in 2 days. I pet Emma in front of them too and they were SHOCKED that she was quiet! They are teenagers and remember last summer when she was like a psycho glider.

Then we took the ferrets out and were playing with them, when I came back into the room, the girls came to do the door and looked at me like, "Hey Mom, what's going on? Got any more yummies for us!!!???" it was soooo cute. Ears were perked up and they are just so happy and calm.

It's day 3 but it's only the second full day. I will continue this work and I'm so thankful that Bourbon is working with me on this! laugh
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/04/09 01:16 AM

Little Miss Sassy may need a new name. Day three was spent with belly rubs and contented clicking. So sweet!

I'm get so excited reading everyone's posts about their progress with their gliders. I've seen the difference in gliders when they have made the transition from fear to trust and it is incredible. There can be no "bond building" until there is trust first. HUGE YEA for your gliders and their progresses.

With all the gliders I've had through my home over the years, I have to say that I usually start off slowly with them, working with them in the "old" methods but many of them respond so much better to the ppp than any thing else. Many have been placed into homes where they are loved and spoiled instead of STILL being in my home working with the old method. For me, ANY glider that comes into my home whether be it a rescue, rehome or new joey will be treated the same. BASED on the initial behavior of the glider. Sassy, based on her history, leaving her in a regular pouch would have been a disservice to her and would have only intensified her fear based on my experience with YEARS of GLIDER behavior issues and modifications.

What needs to be realized is in most cases, these gliders are NOT the normal everyday newly home gliders but ones that other methods have not worked with.

Just how long are you supposed to try the "old" methods with the glider living in fear and terror before you are willing to try something new?

And I'm not a newbie. I can tell the difference in a "go away I'm sleeping" crab and a "Please don't eat me crab". The grumbling (I'm sleeping) crab is not normally accompanied by a fierce attack stance followed by lunging.

Crabbing is their FIRST line of defence against what they are afraid of or are displeased with. How such a small animal can make such a LOUD vicious noise...

The attack stance with crabbing is their second line of defense and when that doesn't work, the lunging and biting.

Why let a glider get so terrified that it reaches that point?

As has already been said, the ppp is open so that the glider KNOWS it has a way of escape if needed. A regular pouch does NOT offer such an escape route. By forcing a glider in a regular pouch to "calm down" and to accept your attention, seems THAT would be most likely to cause the "Stockholm Syndrom" that that way would be cruel. Putting a glider into a bonding pouch and zipping it closed is forcing that glider into a situation where he/she may not want to be but has no choice. The ppp method being used gives gliders choice.

To say that all enrichment avenues are taken away is just not accurate. My gliders have toys, just not ones they can hide in.

Buffy was an EXTREME glider. The methods used on her were extreme. But with other gliders, these methods are flexable and can be geared to each individual glider and their individual needs.
Posted By: glidrz5

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/04/09 01:57 AM

Bourbon, I wanted to let you know that I have tried the pouch with my Happy and Gary. The very next morning when I came home from work and went to check on them I wasn't greeted by their usual crab until Mom gives us a yoggie but by happy chirping that Momma was coming to give them their morning yoggie. WOW to say the least. They love their new pouch and snuggle down into it waiting paitently for me to give them their treat and cuddles. They enjoy peeking out and seeing me coming and then will sit up and wait for me. I still get the occasional startled out of a sound sleep crab and I hate the sound of the zipper crab but they are few and far between.
Posted By: LSardou

Re: Bonding with Pouch Protective glider - Part 2 - 01/04/09 01:59 AM

See Part 3 here
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