GliderCENTRAL

Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part 3

Posted By: LSardou

Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part 3 - 01/04/09 01:58 AM

See Part 2 here
Posted By: thefotokat

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part 3 - 01/04/09 02:22 AM

Teresa, I do understand that it's successful and I can understand using extreme methods in extreme cases such as Buffy. The remark that caused me to post my opinion could easily lead someone who is not experienced w/gliders to believe that a glider is happy simply because it isn't crabbing or biting. That's not an accurate gauge of happiness. The lack of enrichment items is a huge concern for me. I believe that enrichment items are crucial to a glider's well being. What does the glider have to do w/no, or very limited, enrichment? There seems to be an assumption that the only other bonding method is to keep the glider in a closed pouch. There are other ways to work w/a glider that don't involve that. Each glider has to be treated differently depending on how they behave. I couldn't tell you that I only use one way to bond w/every glider that comes through here because it's always different. My entire goal is to see happy and healthy gliders.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part 3 - 01/04/09 02:50 AM

Glidrz - what an awesome result!!!

That's what it's all about. smile

I gave the girls some more yogurt off of my finger, they are really loving this. Emma came to the door and was checking me out again. It's wonderful to see her more comfortable with her surroundings. laugh
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part 3 - 01/04/09 02:50 AM

Quote:
The lack of enrichment items is a huge concern for me.


Kate, this is where you are not reading with an open mind. There is no lack of enrichment items (toys, wheels, foraging toys etc) in the cage. The only limitations are to the types of toys, such as tunnels (which my gliders don't go in anyway) where they can hide.

Each glider that I've used the ppp with still has wheels and toys just like all my other gliders. The only difference is the pouch. And I also provide a blanket for MOST of them to burrow under IN their ppp. The blanket is less restrictive to them than a regular cage pouch and it is easier for them to peek out to see what is around them. Each glider is an individual and that determines if they get a blanket and how large of a blanket.

For me, once the glider is comfortable in the ppp and are no longer afraid of all the noises and movements around them, I transition them to a regular pouch by way of one of Connie's tents. The tents have a large hole in them that the glider can easily see out of. Once they are comfortable in that, then they are given a regular pouch and still get to keep the tent and ppp if they choose.

I would NEVER do anything to harm a glider and anyone that thinks I would well, they are just wrong. This method of working with gliders does NOT harm them. It does not terrorize them. It does not break their spirit. It definately does not cause Stockholm Syndrome. You STILL work with the glider at the glider's pace. The difference is, they are not forced to be in a closed in pouch where THEY have no control as to whether or not they escape or stay.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part 3 - 01/04/09 02:53 AM

Oh, and Kate, if you really think they don't have enrichment toys and stuff, go to the cage contest photos and look at Chris's Happy and Gary's cage. It is a huge reptarium FILLED with toys.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part 3 - 01/04/09 02:57 AM

ok, I can't find all those awesome cage pics that were submitted. Hopefully Chris will post it for you.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part 3 - 01/04/09 03:02 AM

I actually ADDED some toys to my cage! I took out the wheel (only because it's a wodent wheel and they'll hide in it) - So I added a fleece chain that they have been playing on and checking out.

Originally Posted By: Dancing
I would NEVER do anything to harm a glider and anyone that thinks I would well, they are just wrong. This method of working with gliders does NOT harm them. It does not terrorize them. It does not break their spirit. It definately does not cause Stockholm Syndrome. You STILL work with the glider at the glider's pace. The difference is, they are not forced to be in a closed in pouch where THEY have no control as to whether or not they escape or stay.


Amen!

Everything has been at my girls' pace. EVERYTHING. They have a nice place to sleep, lots of enriching activities and are getting more attention and lickie treats and interaction outside the cage that they did a week ago. Because a week ago (or rather 3 days ago) I couldn't trust them out of the cage nor could I reach in and work with them.

From the get-go, Bourbon and I have been under the understanding that at any point I can tell her to "get lost" and do what I feel is best for the gliders. I'm following her advice of my GLIDER'S free will and choice because THEY are showing me that they are happier and calmer.

But you must remember that this is only a process... just like pull-ups for kids to help them during potty training. The PPP is to help gliders in their transition between being frightened gliders that have no idea what's going on around them and why these SCARY HUMANS want to mess with them to realizing that they these humans are pretty cool and I'm safe here, in fact, "I'M HAPPY HERE!!!". So when they graduate from pull-ups to the potty - we will slowly put everything back in the cage and keep the happy, trusting gliders as the result.
Posted By: thefotokat

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part 3 - 01/04/09 03:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Dancing
Quote:
The lack of enrichment items is a huge concern for me.


Kate, this is where you are not reading with an open mind. There is no lack of enrichment items (toys, wheels, foraging toys etc) in the cage. The only limitations are to the types of toys, such as tunnels (which my gliders don't go in anyway) where they can hide.

Each glider that I've used the ppp with still has wheels and toys just like all my other gliders. The only difference is the pouch. And I also provide a blanket for MOST of them to burrow under IN their ppp. The blanket is less restrictive to them than a regular cage pouch and it is easier for them to peek out to see what is around them. Each glider is an individual and that determines if they get a blanket and how large of a blanket.

For me, once the glider is comfortable in the ppp and are no longer afraid of all the noises and movements around them, I transition them to a regular pouch by way of one of Connie's tents. The tents have a large hole in them that the glider can easily see out of. Once they are comfortable in that, then they are given a regular pouch and still get to keep the tent and ppp if they choose.

I would NEVER do anything to harm a glider and anyone that thinks I would well, they are just wrong. This method of working with gliders does NOT harm them. It does not terrorize them. It does not break their spirit. It definately does not cause Stockholm Syndrome. You STILL work with the glider at the glider's pace. The difference is, they are not forced to be in a closed in pouch where THEY have no control as to whether or not they escape or stay.



Some have posted about how horrible they felt taking out all the gliders' stuff...that's where I'm reading lack of enrichment from. How you describe what you've done is not what I'm talking about. Also, keeping the gliders in a "closed pouch" is not the only other bonding option. Depending on the glider, there are numerous other sleeping options.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part 3 - 01/04/09 03:28 AM

Originally Posted By: thefotokat
Also, keeping the gliders in a "closed pouch" is not the only other bonding option. Depending on the glider, there are numerous other sleeping options.


Very true. Depending on the needs of the glider, it will change the needs of the sleeping options and what is used. I choose to use the pouch protective pouch because for my gliders it works great.
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 03:55 AM

Jennifer, congrats on all your progress! clap Keep up the good work!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 04:26 AM

Thanks Dee! laugh
Posted By: jacknsally

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 05:59 AM

I'm not sure if it's been said or discussed- but I'm wondering if we have an agreeance on what a pouch protective glider is?

A pouch protective glider is not a glider who crabs at you just when being looked at in their pouch- it's not a glider who hasn't bonded with you yet- it's not a glider who is just scared from being transferred around.

A pouch protective glider is a glider who doesn't feel safe any where except in it's pouch. It's a glider who can't handle the touch, attention or interaction of human contact.

I think too many are mistaking or calling their gliders pouch protective, when actually their just being a glider who you haven't gotten to know yet. They just need more time- not all of them are ready to be tossed down someone's bra or cupped in someone's hands.

I have bonded gliders, I have bra baby gliders and each of them at some point will crab at me when I disturb them, each of them will bite to tell me something.

Yes there can be toys of enrichment in the cage with the ppp- but it has to be of something that they cannot get in or hide in or under- so that includes the wheel- they can hide in a wodent or behind or under a stealth. A true pouch protective glider is so freaked out, they do NOT stop bouncing off the cage bars long enough to even take interest in the enrichment toys!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 06:22 AM

Can we PLEASE hear from some of the people that are still trying to make contact with their gliders and get this back on track... PLEASE????? I am getting PM's from folks saying they want leave the thread bc of all the negativity. Please let them try...
Posted By: jacknsally

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 06:24 AM

Originally Posted By: BelladonnasMom
Can we PLEASE hear from some of the people that are still trying to make contact with their gliders and get this back on track... PLEASE????? I am getting PM's from folks saying they want leave the thread bc of all the negativity. Please let them try...


why not take it to pm then- since each case is handled differently and personally designed for them depending on the gliders issues or the gliders owner issues??
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 06:46 AM

Why should we have to celebrate our successes via PM? I don't understand why we shouldn't post about it.
Posted By: LSardou

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 06:53 AM

We would like for this Thread to continue on as it originally started. There is NO reason to take your success stories off the board. This is a great opportunity for everyone to share their stories.


Originally Posted By: Rule#4
GliderCENTRAL is a family oriented "G" rated board, be polite,courteous and respectful to other board members at all times. This means Illegal substances, Illegal activities, flaming, sexually explicit subjects, cursing, spamming, harassing, diet bashing, and abusive or negative personal posts are not allowed. Posts and sometimes entire topics that contain such content will be removed, and the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 07:02 AM

Thank you Linda, even though I know we are ALL at fault, I am bowing my head in shame... I tell others to walk away and let it roll off their backs... yet I didn't do it. For that I apologize, truly.

Now for MY little update. Okay, not really an update but kind of a warning about what your inner turmoil can do to your glider. We have a member that is going through a tough time right now, and I was warning her today, via Bourbon, that handling her glider while so upset could confuse and upset her glider... then I did it myself! LOL

I had Bella out taking her nap wrapped in her blankie, she was all snuggly and making bubble noises and being sweet in the crook of my arm, sooo sweet! Well, my partner and I are in the middle of a tiff, and I am giving out the old cold shoulder. I know, not mature, but whatever. So, when she spoke to me while I had Bella in my arms, I apparently got upset and stiffened up. My sweet tolerant little Bella, who has only ever crabbed twice in the entire time I have had her went OFF! I thought she was going to rip my head off. So I just opened up the blankie, spoke softly to her, petted her head, calmed myself down and she snuggled right back down in no time. I didn't realize just how easily they picked up on our emotions. Amazing little creatures!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 07:03 AM

If you people do not like Bourbons method then make your own thread about it. Do not debate it in this thread. I need this thread to post about my success and my fall backs. I need these guys help. Yes I know I have not posted on here in awhile but that is because I had to start working 2 jobs to make my bills and have not been able to make the commitment that I was before. Soon I will be dropping down to one job and I WILL be getting back in contact with her again to continue and make up for any lost time.

Please make another thread and take any issues you may have in there. We really need this thread and can not afford to lose it.

To Bourbon (if you are still reading this) and to all the other people that have helped me through my issues and given me support- I thank you all and I will begin working with my gliders again soon. Bella is still Bella and running and playing with me. Still trying to get her to learn to stay on me though. All she wants to do is run all over the floor and bed. Houdini is still lunging. He lunges at everything: metal tweezers, metal spoons, straws, anything I try to give him anything with. He got out one night and I had to get him into a pouch to go back in his cage. He did not want to come near me at all. Jackie and Joey are still scared. Jackie loves treats and no crabbing or lunging but will come no where near me. Joey does nothing but crab. No matter where he is. In my shirt he crabs if I look at him, Cage if I even go near the cage he crabs and lunges at the cage near me. I try to bond with him as possible and he is still crabbing and lunging.

Sorry this is such a long post but I had to do a update and plead with the people to take their opinions to another thread.

BOURBON you are great and we all love you and what you are doing to help us. You are a great person and friend. THANK YOU so much.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 07:32 AM

Thanks for the update Tara... I hope things get better for you. On the homefront and the glider-front. LOL Keep working... you never know.
Posted By: SugareeErin

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 08:11 AM

It is true that each case is different and that each glider need to be evaluated on an individual level. I feel that is an important point.

I think it is great everyone is sharing stories about our very different gliders smile Everyone can learn something from reading this thread, but must remember not everything will apply to them and their glider.

Anyway, I haven't posted about Shadows progress in a while, we are doing great! He is a little sweety. I made videos of our tent time in the beginning and was unable to share it then, so here it is smile

http://s276.photobucket.com/albums/kk27/Sugareey21/?action=view&current=ec912cbe.pbr
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 08:35 AM

Ooh, thanks for the video Erin. Shadow looks like he was doing great even then!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 08:57 AM

Not sure if this is considered a setback or not.... but not 2 minutes after posting my previous, I gave the girls yogurt in straws and left them in the pouch (per Bourbon) and said hello to Pae. She nipped me. frown At that point Emma was awake and checking out the straws, oh yum yum! Well I stood up and said hello to Emma and she crabbed at me.

So I don't know if I simply learned that Emma is protective of her food or if I scared the living daylights out of her -- or both! frown I feel bad.

I fed them and am leaving them alone now, but we're not usually up this late... so I think they are ready for us to leave the room and let them run around.
Posted By: jacknsally

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 02:04 PM

Originally Posted By: DeeDancer
Why should we have to celebrate our successes via PM? I don't understand why we shouldn't post about it.


I wasn't meaning your success stories, I didn't realize this was about updates. Sorry, I was thinking this post was about questions and how to use the ppp. I came in late and thought it was just opinions & a debate type of post.

Posted By: glidrz5

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 02:20 PM

Teresa asked for me to post a picture of Happy and Gary's cage to show what they have in it. So here you go..... http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c221/Glidrz5/P1010136.jpg
The only thing different in the cage from when this picture was taken is they are now in a ppp pouch (homemade not purchased) rather than the snugglebunny and I removed the little UFO hanging tent (bottom leval in the back....kinda hard to see) Other than that their cage is exactly the same.
The reason I went with this kind of a pouch for these two is that they get upset with sounds that they do not understand. I was talking with Bourbon when we were planning Teresa's surprise laugh and I told her about these two. She suggested I try the pouch because it would let them see what was going on around them and make them less afraid/startled of noises they couldn't instantly identify. I admit I was nervous about trying it because it does get chilly in my basement apartment and I didn't want them to get cold. But then I found a double thick fleece that I used to make the pouches out of so they would stay warm even without a standard pouch around them. I also gave them a few little blankets they could tuck around them to stay warm with and still be able to peek out.
They took to the pouch right away and enjoy cuddling in it. There is less fussing over unexpected noises and they are less tense when I give them their treat in the morning and when I give them their dinner at night.
Posted By: thefotokat

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 02:43 PM

Chris, I just looked at your pic and it's not the type of set up that was described by some people using this method on crabby gliders. I see at least 2 places a glider could hide in that cage. From what is being posted, all such items are removed. Your set up/situation is not what many are describing.
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 04:06 PM

I first want to apologized to all that I am working with, someone reminded me last night I have a ignore button, and I am now using it. My focus will be right here, working with you all, and I will ignore the distractions.

Erin, That video is awesome, I see that shadow comes to you and glides from you, shadow looks so great playing with you.. now for my infamous question, how does that make you feel? You had a rocky start, but from that point you moved with your glider, you started to become one with shadows progress, you never pushed him, you never forced him, LOL, with your consistency, love and patience with , he lead you, and you followed, you have allowed him to be himself, with all his little quirks, and loved him inspite of them. refresh me, as to his pouch now, have you closed it up yet or transitioned him into a regular pouch yet?

Chris I am so pleased that Happy and Gary is doing so great,

Dee, all I can say is you are doing great!!!!you have moved many mountains, went through many obstacles, but as Erin, you have followed Rangers Lead and let him show you what he needed, and you were there for him, the progress you have made with him, is awesome,

Robin, I am thrilled to death, that you have a great relationship with Donna now, it may not be what other people may wish for their glider, but when we spoke, your minimum goal was.. that she was no longer afraid, you wanted to be able to feed her without being attacked, and through this, you have that plus much more. You have showed her the continued love you have for her throughout it all. She trusts you now for the most part, each glider is different bella is your cuddler, Donna, makes a great playtime glider, the trust building is the foundation, you have to have some kind of trust before you can begin bonding, the bonding is something that will continue to grow over time, with that the trust will also grow, but I love the fact you have started the bonding process with Donna.

We all (in this group) know that our emotions are transfered to the gliders, but sometimes we have a tendency to forget at times especially when they are doing so great, we find many times that we take them for granted, we have to continue to put ourselves into their place, When Baybe was with me, just the thought that she was there, loving me and cuddling, was enough to calm me down in many situations.

Tara, everything is fine, don't look at these as being setbacks, remember what I said, we are not taking away their previous behaviors, we are only giving them more options, and rewarding the positive behaviors. keep in mind, that night time is their time, and that as we continue, (reason for your journal) we are able to fine tune the individual issues they have. there is a lot of gliders out there that is food protective, try it again, tonight, see if it is the food or if you did startle her, try to pinpoint exactly what it is you had done, and if it is the food, well my suggestion for now would be respect that.. if it is that she was startled, try to be sure she knows you are coming first, remember the talking, telling them everything is going to be okay.

Jen, you are doing great I will call you today, and see what we can do about your little problem, but all in all you are doing great..

Holly, I understand right now things are hectic and pretty up in the air, tensions are high, so what I would like for you to do, is just use your focus when you are in front of the cage, to reassure the gliders (and yourself, that everything is going to be okay, nothing more, nothing less. a simple phrase as you stop by the cage, say it, and then walk away. everything will be okay.. and that is from us to you..
Posted By: SugareeErin

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 05:48 PM

Hey Bourbon! Of course it feels awesome to have him gliding to me and from me, tent time is a blast with this group! I love my little baby soooo much. I can't remember the last time I heard him crab, even when we use the bonding pouch he is great. I will have to make a better video sometime, that one is super dark but I wanted to post it anywway to show how Shadow was actually coming to me vs. running away from me. I think it was only a week or so after starting with you Bourbon I made the video. The video is his first tent time post PP pouch smile

Edit: Oh yeah and at the end it's hard to see but Sunshine AND Shadow were both jumping on me at the same time!

They are currently sleeping in a swing hammock from Karin, the pouch was all the way closed and next they will be movin into their Elfin Pouch I hope.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 05:59 PM

Wooo Hoo!!!!! I love reading all of your stories!

Glidrz5... that rept is amazing!!! You sure won't have bored gliders. They have so much to do!

Erin... thanks for the video, very cool!

Jen... give it time. I got soooo frustrated... a LOT thinking we were going backwards. But it all worked out in the end. Gliders live in a different time set than we do, and sometimes thay are S L O W! LOL

Bourbon.... we luvs ya girl! Thanks a heap! Now... "How does that make YOU feel?" ROFL
Posted By: SugareeErin

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 06:02 PM

roflmao
Posted By: josefine

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 06:02 PM

SOMEONE, PLEASE/PLEASE/PLEASE--print off pages of everything in this topic, so i can learn & be taught how to help w/bonding w/our babies.cosmos is a VERY scared glider, & he crabs insessently whenever i have him, lunges ALL the time w/me, & really bites me HARD whenever in the cage.
during tent time, he isn't that aggresive, & he will come to me willingly, BUT he ONLY does this during tent time!!!
i WIL pay $20.00 for this 'book', before shipping cost.
i made a copy of the other thread, started by kate, & it didn't come out well. i had to add missing words on the rite side of the page that was printed.
what I have learned from this thread is as valuable as the book out there from carolyn, or peggy, or anyone giving their opinion & advice on gliders.
we are learning step by step procedures that NO ONE has written a book on.
josefine vodenik
2014 4th st
perry,iowa 50220
515/465-4557home#
515/321-6081cell#
j.vodenik@hotmail.com
or
vodeniks@hotmail.com
ps. if $20 for these articles are not enough, i will GLADLY PAY MORE!!!!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 06:16 PM

Day 4 Morning: Girls are being sweet again... moody little things! Pae is coming to the door (when she's awake) and climbing all over me. The only "problem" I had a HORRIBLE time getting her BACK into the cage! Not horrible, like she was biting but horrible in that she was just clinging to me and climbing further up my arm! Wouldn't be a problem but Emma is an escape artist and LOVES to glide and jump... bad combination right now!

Don't worry Bourbon, I would have just called you rather than [censored] out and chasing them.

But Emma came to my hand too and seemed like she was checking for food, she gave me a little nip but is was completely calm and she looks happy!!! (But need to fix this nipping business!)

So ups and downs but this morning was another up.


And yes, Bourbon. We all love you. How does that feel!? laugh
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 06:21 PM

Josefine,

This "method" is geared for individual gliders. Each of these people that are working with Bourbon are working with her directly discussing the individual situations and approaching their situtation accordingly. Having a printed out "book" of all this may HELP with Cosmos but none of these individual "plans" are geared to help Cosmos specifically.

Call Bourbon. Her phone number is in her signature.

She can help you figure out just which things you can do/try that will individually help with YOUR situation with not just Cosmos but all your gliders.

Unlike many glider diet plans, this trust building method is NOT set in stone. There are different options and flexability that come into play based on the individual situation.

You have been through so much with your gliders. I'm sure some of the "issues" are your fears because you just can't bear to loose another and that is completely understandable. But you definately have the love and dedication, just need some direction to determine just what your individual goals are with Cosmos and then some options to help him AND YOU reach those goals.

There is a HUGE difference between trust building and bonding. Before you can start to bond, you have to earn your glider's trust but YOU also need to learn to trust. To trust your glider but also to trust yourself. Once that trust is started, then you move on to bonding. Both of these things are LIFETIME projects. There is no instant permenant "fix" to any glider situation.

NEVER give up though! I've never met a glider that couldn't learn trust. Some are more stubborn or hesitant about giving it a chance but time and dedication will win out in the long run.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 06:34 PM

I agree with Teresa about everything she said! Not only that, but we don't all have so called "pouch protective" gliderss, I have seen all manner of ill behavior on this thread, not all what I oud say is pouch protection. WHat Bourbon is doing is tailoring what needs to be done to the needs of each glider and their behaviors. My Bella was NEVER crabby or nippy, but in the process of getting to know Donna, Bella and I have become closer. Super Bonus! LOL A lot of us started out doing the same things, but then our tactics changed as our gliders behaviors changed. I was nto allowed to "hand over" food, but someone else was encouraged to do so. What you will do with your glider will differ too.

If you need help with your glider, you can either leave a message here for Bourbon to give you the okay to call her, or just CALL HER! Her number is in her signature for anyone that needs it!

As far as a book... that actually sounds like a good idea to me. But it would be hard to do when its different for every glider. I do think a short book with the methods concerning trust building would be a big hit! You have time to write a book, right Bourbon? LOL
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 06:41 PM

My PP gliders at dinner time last night...

http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/pp359/boundnbroken1/Bella%20Boo/Gliders/104_1433.jpg

The same rescues that could have cared less if I was alive or not and would crab NON-STOP. Now everyone comes to visit, somehow Annie didn't make it into the pics.
Posted By: josefine

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 06:43 PM

everyone is different, i know, & you are one of just a few that does know what little cosmos went thru, & yes, i don't know how i would react if i lost another one, the pain of the first 2 are still too fresh in my heart.
but, what i was thinking,was to have glider owners to be able to try these different types of technuiqes needed to build a good trust & bonding application. i don't have a good short-term memory(lacking one), & i could try each one out, until i find one that will work for him & me.
see, you need to come to the wagg, so you can help w/all of us. i need you, i need everyone's help.
we got 2 sisters (4yr olds) awhile back, & they were so nice & docile, now, they are crabbing like cosmos. his fear has evidently rubbed off onto them!i would still like to get a 'book' out for me to have & read.
there are so many posts w/good advice on this forum, that it should be printed as a book for the rest of the world to be able to buy. there are 100's of wrong ways, & there are rite ways, also, & this is a goal, i am sure, for all glider owners to achieve, & have.
i would really like to buy one of those 'tent pouches' that was mentioned in this thread, or the other one. i like the idea of letting my babies see out, & also stay warm. this type of pouch would be the next best thing to the pouches that karen makes.
talk @ ya L8R
josefine
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 07:04 PM

Josefine, Bourbon could never write a book for owners because she tailors each "plan" to the glider and the owner. Most of what she does is to "train" the owner. Typically, the glider's behavior is based on the fear of the owner as well. Once the owner gets over their fears/anxiety/etc. then the real help to the glider starts. I can tell you that when I am getting claustraphobic and start to have an axiety attack, Bella starts getting anxious herself. I have now learned that I need to avoid certain things when I have Bella so i don't start her down the road of fear. Example... If Wal-Mart is packed, I can't go in with her. If I do, I need to really keep myself calm to keep her calm. I have noticed that if I get anxious, she is crabby ALL day after that.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 07:16 PM

For example. My girl Pae is not pouch protective so Bourbon and I are working on hand trust issues with her. Emma is pouch protective so we are just helping her work on getting used to the environment around her.

So while a lot of it is the same with the treats and dealing with trusting me but we are doing a lot different. Emma is the insecure one so we are moving more slowly with her but Pae is already coming to my hand and allowed to ride on me for a minute or two then put back in the cage.
Posted By: Holly1221

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/04/09 11:33 PM

Originally Posted By: Bourbon
Holly, I understand right now things are hectic and pretty up in the air, tensions are high, so what I would like for you to do, is just use your focus when you are in front of the cage, to reassure the gliders (and yourself, that everything is going to be okay, nothing more, nothing less. a simple phrase as you stop by the cage, say it, and then walk away. everything will be okay.. and that is from us to you..

thank you Bourbon for bein so understanding ! everything will be ok if i don't flip my lid and.. yah best i don't finish that wink ! in the meantime until i can fully work with my gliders and try to keep my stress to a minimum, i will be talkin to them EVERY chance i get. hug2
also, thanks Robin
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/06/09 02:13 AM

How is everyone doing today? I want updates!!!

Day 5: I found out that the girls LOVE LOVE LOVE applesauce. laugh Emma was all about that and even made a little "nom nom" noise. I loved it!

The girls were happy little girls and my hubby was able to pet Emma (I really do think that she likes him more anyways!!!). While he was saying hi to her, I took Pae out and had her run around on my arms. laugh I loved it!

Bourbon actually had me close the pouch today as they are not sleeping in it... so then we will work it open. They are still in the make shift pouch and I closed it the way she suggested. So Emma went right up, she's the curious one and always needs to know what's in the cage. So she checked it out and curled up in it. But Pae was still in the corner and looking particularly nervous because Emma wasn't snuggled up with her like always. So I opened the cage and talked to her softly, she slowly came to the door. I put my hand out and she crawled on, again slowly but I didn't force ANYTHING, I just talked to her softly and let her do all of the moving. laugh But she did it!!! So I pet her and then put her into the "pouch" that Emma was in!!

I'm so excited about how that went! Pae actually came to me from the corner of the cage!!! dance
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/06/09 05:55 PM

Pogo is doign great, I can pick her up now if she is in the pouch and carry her to the other room for playtime. Were making progress!

Lily is not making a ton of progress. She won't take licky's off anythign but a spoon. She always seems depressed but at night she's glued to the cage next to Pogo seeming happy. I started intros last week, Bourbon said to go ahead and put them in the same cage, and see if she will learn some things from Pogo. Sounds like a plan.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/06/09 06:37 PM

Little miss Sassy...

I talked to Bourbon last night about her and her "teenage nipping" that she is doing. All the gliders I've had here have gone through this "stage" and out grow it but with Sassy I didn't feel I should just "wait it out" like I normally do.

She doesn't bite out of any type of agression at all, these are nips to taste everything.

Now, I've never been one to do "licky treats" for several reasons but Bourbon made me see the licky treats as more than just getting them to "not bite" but also to not nip.

Sassy will readily come to my hands (in the cage) to check me out but then she has to try to taste every part of my hand. Bourbon said to put licky treat stuff (yogurt, applesause,what ever) on my hand so she will lick instead of nip.

Gliders will bite into branches etc to get the sap to run so they can lick it up. By it already being on the surface, she doesn't have to nip/bite to get to it.

Have to admit, she seemed so excited to have something to lick (and I just used her Reep's mix last night, part of her dinner) and clung on to my finger to keep me from taking it away. Then when I took my hand out of the cage, she was right there at the side of the cage saying "HEY come back! I wasn't done yet!"

ALL VERY SWEET last night!

11 years with gliders and STILL LEARNING!
Posted By: SugareeErin

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/07/09 12:17 AM

clap Everyone is just doing so great with their gliders! It makes me smile everytime I read this post! We need more pictures of everyones babies being sweet!

So I'm back with a short video from today, I went in a scooped up Shadow just for you Bourbon! And also you can see their current set up-Now that they have "redecorated" anyway lol. (They chewed the string toy that hold everything up in half shakehead )

Shadow has come leaps and bounds. He is clam and so sweet! mlove Maybe he will be a bra baby after all. I NEVER thought that I would be able to hold Shadow in my hand or cuddle with him. He was so flighty whan I got him, terrified and seemed to hate me. He would bounce all over his cage if I put my hand in at first and it took a while for a licky treat. Now he is just a doll. He always wants to come out and play with me and comes to see me when I go by the cage.

I am going to try to have them in a regular pouch soon. They are in Karin's swing hammock now, which was always one of their their favorite place to sleep pre Pouch protector pouch anyway lol. I may use the hammock and try to close it up gradually or go back to PP pouch and close it off bit by bit.

Here is the new video from today. He was a little confused as normally I only scoop him out to go to the tent for playtime. He gave a half crab. I think he was like "hey bright light bright light" lol.

Sweet Shadow
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/07/09 12:40 AM

now I am sitting here crying.. that is absolutely beautiful. Erin, I am soooo proud of you and shadow..


to let others know.. Erin has been in the transition stage, of the pouch protector to a regular pouch, she already had the PP pouch closed all the way and was transiting them slowly , she is currently using Karin's swing hammock, and tried to move them to a regular pouch.. well .. that didn't go so well, so back into the swing hammock for them.. we are still going to continue trying to transition them into a regular pouch. I would like to use the swing hammock to try the transition. I have some ideas and will call you erin on those ideas.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/07/09 01:46 AM

Day 6: Girls are doing BEAUTIFULLY!!!

Emma and Pae are in the close pouch (it's still the make-shift pouch). I am able to reach in the pouch and pet them both and give them yummy treats. Emma is deveoloping such a beautiful personality. She is so curious and looks at me as if to say, "Don't try it crazy woman, I know what you're going to do..."

Then just a bit ago, I gave the girls some applesauce, they started grabbing my finger for this stuff! They don't do that for the yogurt, but this was also the first treat of the day (back to work this week... so hard on the loving-the-gliders schedule). But then, when I was done, I rinsed off my finger and finished the applesauce (cruel I know), I still have the cup in my left hand and opened the cage to pet Emma again. She was looking at the cup, then back into my eyes, cup, eyes, cup, eyes. There was a definite "Umm... excuse me... I wasn't done!" look in her face!

Pae (yes, timid, run-to-the-pouch whenever anyone is around, Pae) was excited to see my this morning when I got up. It was 4am and I turned on the light in the living room, she BOUNDED out of the pouch and straight to the door and was all smiles - "HI MOM!!!"

heart MELT MY HEART! heart

And this afternoon, I had my eyes locked with Emma's and when I winked, she winks back... she just kept looking at me... It was almost like she was trying to read what I was saying just as much as I was trying to read what she was saying.

I was able to pet the SIDE of Emma's head (unheard of a week ago) and she said at first, "Not my favorite", but then she let me and had the "well ok" look. And seemed comfortable with it.

frown But just now... the girls were saying "back off" when I said hi again, I've been bugging them too much, I think. So I backed off and when I shut the door, the hinge/bolt and screw made a squeak and crab crab crab (not loud, but a crab)... cry But I talked to them some more, really softly... and they are calm, tired, but calm... I feel bad though.
Posted By: GangstersMom

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/07/09 08:31 AM

Okay, I just made a SUPER long post and my computer ate it, so I will try again! lol!

I just wanted to pop in and say a HUGE thank you to everyone who have been a part of this thread, especially Bourbon!

On December 28th I brought home Diva. And she was EVIL! lol! But over the course of a few days I realized that she is just EXTREMELY pouch protective. We are talking the whole shabang! From insane crabbing, to lunging, to biting me so hard, multiple times in a row that I have had blood running down my finger. So, I got on GC and started searching, as I have never had a PP glider before. And low and behold, here you all are! So, I have been reading for days! And you all have made so much amazing progress! And because of BOurbon and this thread, Diva and I started our new journey together on Sunday!

TO start, like most of you, I did not have a PPP, so I decided to do what I do best, lol, and crocheted Diva a glider bowl! It works AMAZING! Thanks for the idea Amanda!

So, Sunday morning I took everything out of her cage that she could hide in. And for those of you that are stressing about glider enrichment, this does not mean that her cage was emptied. She still has TONS of toys and a Custom Cruiser! Anyway, Diva went right into the "bowl" and curled up for the day! I came and sat by the cage once an hour and talked to her and read her "Twilight"! lol! I figured it was fitting since she is my little bloodsucker! lol! And guess what!? Not a peep out of her! Not a single crab! She would just look up at me when I would first walk up to her and then would curl back up for sleep. Perfect day 1!

Monday, I repeated Sunday, only I did it with the cage door open and with my hand rested inside the cage close by her new bed. Still, not a peep! She was leary of my hand at first, but once she saw that I wasnt going to grab at her, she settled right back into her little glider ball and listened to me read. Perfect day 2!

Which brings us to today! I repeated what I had previously done, only this time I rested my hand ON her new bed! And she was wonderful! No fear! But tonight was the real breakthrough! I decided to try licky treats! I was petrified! lol! I know how bad her bites hurt! But guess what!!!???!!! She licked my fingers clean!! And not even a nibble! She just sat right there in her crocheted bowl and licked honey off of my fingers!! I was floored! This coming from the glider that laid into my finger so hard and wouldnt let go, JUST A WEEK AGO!

I am so proud of Diva and the progress she has made in just 3 short days! And again I want to thank all of you from the bottom of my heart for these threads! Bourbon, you are Wonder Woman! Thank you! I am so excited about this journey of love and trust that Diva and I are getting to share! And hopefully, one day soon, she will be united with the girls, and they can live happily together with me!

I will keep you all updated daily, in hopes that my story will help someone else, like yours have helped me!



Posted By: GangstersMom

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/07/09 08:43 AM

Eeeekkk! One more! lol! Look what I just caught on camera!

Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/07/09 03:57 PM

Hey Brandy, haven't seen ya in awhile.. great job, but let me add to your post a bit, something that I feel is so important to this technique, I really believe without it, that this technique would very much be like many of the others. Also something that would work, no matter what technique you use.

Brandy (gangstermom) was at a local gathering with me, where I did a session on trust building. The talk was very dramatic, very impacting and probably one of the most relationship changing talks I had ever given, it was a starting point for not only others but myself as well, to work harder. at not working as hard. to change the way we do things, for me It showed me I needed to tweak a method I knew could work, but also do it in a fashion that was far less traumatic for the gliders.

we spent a lot of time, putting ourselves into our gliders places, a lot of time, looking at what we ourselves have been and had done, that was NOT giving the gliders a chance to trust us, we discussed NOT taking the time to learn our gliders, their body language, the subtle little ways of trying to communicate their feelings and fears. and how by not taking that time, was adding to their stress and fear.

we took gliders who were scared to death, opened them up and seen how quickly they calmed down.

but through it all, everyone in that room, started thinking differently every time they went to their gliders cage, they started looking differently at their playtime, they started their trust building with not only love , understanding and compassion, but also with empathy and that is I really do believe is what has made that huge difference.

When the owners finally sit back, and really look at what they are doing, changes take place, this could happen in a regular pouch an open pouch, a hammock, a box, a bowl(some gliders need to be opened first) to those gliders they find the security in the open.

my first advice to everyone I have worked with directly, is stop, slow down, take the time to learn your glider, each and every movement they make, those movements are their ways of communicating with you, find out what scares them, find out what makes them react, find out how to make them feel safer. This should be done BEFORE a glider is removed from it's cage.

There are many ways to do this, but by far the best, is really just letting your glider know everything is going to be okay, and study them, as you give them a chance to study you as well.listen to them, their body language will tell you so so much.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/07/09 04:07 PM

Another joyous thing from Ohio was unzipping your pouch. Then Delilah got loose when we tried to clip her nails, low and behold she came back to me and got in her pouch. And I thought my gliders weren't bonding to me.
Posted By: GangstersMom

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/07/09 05:26 PM

You are exactly right Bourbon! The Ohio gathering completely changed the way I view my gliders, and the bond I have with my girls is so much deeper because of it. And hopefully one day soon I will have the same with Diva. Thank you again for such an insightful, amazing, and meaningful experience!
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/07/09 06:40 PM

White gliders look so purty curled up in red fleece!

Brandy, congrats on the progress so far.
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/07/09 10:54 PM

Everyone else is showing off how well their gliders are doing, so I figured I should too smile One is Ranger licking yogurt off of my finger and the other is him riding around the house beneath my hood.




Attached picture Ranger 028ed.jpg
Attached picture Ranger 044ed.jpg
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/07/09 11:04 PM

I am in tears too here Erin!!! OMG! Just WOW! Shadow has come so far, I just can't believe it! CONGRATULATIONS!!!

To all of you... GOOD JOB!!! I have some new pics to share, but I'll post them later so as not to steal anyone's thunder. LOL
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/07/09 11:08 PM

Robin, post post! I want to see!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/07/09 11:09 PM

Originally Posted By: DeeDancer
Robin, post post! I want to see!


agree agree
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/07/09 11:14 PM

ME TOO!!!!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/07/09 11:18 PM

Originally Posted By: Bourbon
ME TOO!!!!!


Haha! Robin you've got Bourbon begging!!! roflmao
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/07/09 11:40 PM

Lemme see what I can dig up...

I need ot upload the ones of them in my actual hands. LOL I'll be back in a bit...


Description: Having crickets in the sink
Attached picture Stuff 008.jpg

Description: Bella eatin a cricket
Attached picture Stuff 013 (2).jpg
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/08/09 01:14 AM

cloud9 I'm so excited to meet you and Hopefully one of your babies! hug2
Posted By: SugareeErin

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/08/09 02:14 AM

Great pics! clap Thanks for sharing smile Can't wait to see the rest of them Robin!
Posted By: hwh4ev

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/08/09 02:17 AM

hi everybody,
i have been reading all of this message for the last 2 hrs. and found it to be very enlighting.
when i got my rocky in sept. of 08 he was supposed to be handled and tame, a couple of days before i was to pick him up the breeder told me ''they were busy so my joey has not been handled" i thought ok he is going to be hard to train like my sugar when i got her.
oh my god. no comparison. he was extremly pouch protective, lunger, biter, you name it, he did it.
i worked with him every night and i still have bite scars on my hands that i think will never go away.
i only wish that i had known abt. glider central when i got rocky because i would of bought the ppp and used
it according to bourbon's instructions.

regards,
nancy in detroit

p.s. i bought rocky as a cinnamon, he is not a cinnamon but he is a true bb and i also learned that from this talk forum.
sugaree erin you have a bb grandson(father-garcia)
Posted By: SugareeErin

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/08/09 02:26 AM

Brandy Diva is sooo pretty! You probably feel how I did when I first got Shadow! He was my dream baby and I just wanted to pet him so bad! And he was just not having it.
I had to wait forever just to touch him.

I had had him about one month when Bourbon started with me and within days we had made more progress than in that whole month. Just amazing.

You all are doing so great!!! Isn't it amazing to hold your babies in your hands. I was hoping someday, but thought it would take years! Keep the pictures coming wink



Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/08/09 02:27 AM

nancy you did fine, you have yourself some great babies, and you did it, that is all that matters. never regret what could have been, be happy for what is.
Posted By: SugareeErin

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/08/09 02:29 AM

Nancy PM me pics of my grandbaby sometime! I want to see! Sounds handsome smile
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/08/09 03:16 AM

Ok, it's not just white gliders that look purty surrounded by red. Ranger looks so adorable peeking out from your hoodie!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/08/09 03:27 AM

Bourbon, I had Bella on me all day today. When she was sitting in my shirt pocket and looked up at me, I saw what you described in Baybe. I see an unconditional love. It is amazing!
Posted By: GangstersMom

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/08/09 03:36 AM

Today went AMAZING! The picture speaks for itself!!!!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/08/09 03:58 AM

Oh man Brandy...

Quote:
Byte, Pixel, and JPEG


I heart U!

Day 7: Things are going pretty good. Bourbon is helping me to move out of MY comfort zone. laugh Yes yes, trying to pick up Emma now. Got bit, but not blood... so really a nip? BUT the progress and wonderful results is that she let me pet her after right after and she was calm about it... more reserved but was fine with and almost happy about me petting her.
Posted By: GangstersMom

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/08/09 05:07 AM

Hehehe! I am bringing them home in 13 days! Right after Byte gets the old snip snip!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/08/09 05:15 AM

So I've been doing a yogurt straw every night... I'm not sure this is going to continue! Emma crabbed again when I gave it to her! I couldn't get her to wake up and so I gave one to Pae first... then she crabbed at Pae and took it and jumped out the back of the pouch and was running around the bottom of the cage, crabbing and pacing.

She really seemed very confused! I opened the bottom cage and talked to her, she just started making a chirping noise... kind of like she was telling me ALL about it... was kind of cute at that point, after she calmed.

Sigh... silly girl.

Just need to figure out what's setting her off...

I'm not sure I want to do this yogurt straw thing again... It's supposed to be a reward... but it seems a bit more stressful. She's fine with licky treats on my finger - but has been wigging with the straw!
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/08/09 05:31 AM

jen go ahead and use your finger with her now, as for her treat not an issue. it isn't something you have to do, you will find another way to reward her after her day. now yesterday we closed the pouch totally, and yesterday is when she started acting undone again a little bit at a time.if you want to try to open it about 2 inches , see if that will help. lets try to find that comfort zone with her, like we had discussed.. open it till she no longer is antsy I really don't think it should be too far tho, maybe just enough where she doesn't seem so confined again.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/08/09 05:37 AM

Thank you. smile

I will open it a bit right now... they are starting to wake up so I'll say hi and goodnight to them and leave them be. I'm not "bugging" them as much as I was last night... I think they appreciate it!

You know I'll update you tomorrow. laugh
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/08/09 08:41 PM

Okay, I got some more pics to share. They're not as good as I had hoped because, lets face it, my photographer sucks! She always misses the good shots. LOL BUt I love her anyway...

Mean viscious Donna actually on my hand NOT preparing to bite! And she never even crabbed when I woke her out of a dead sleep!



Donna getting that wild-eyed scared look because the dog was whining. She is soooo sketchy still!



Bella getting some lovin...




Getting ready for take off... (Notice the crazy camera angle... UGH!)



Bella investigating the cat towers at Petsmart today...



EDIT: Just a quick FYI. Bella was the only glider I took with me to Petsmart, and I felt comfortable with doing that ONLY because I know she will come back to ME if shes scared. Bella looks to me for safety and no matter where we are or who is around, at the first sign of anxiety, Bella climbs either in my bra or in a pouch I have around my neck. I say this so that anyone that has not bonded with their gliders yet will know. If you don't have that trust AND bond with a glider, they should never be allowed to roam free anywhere other than a glider proofed room in your own home.


Posted By: Srlb

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/08/09 11:03 PM

Ok, I have a question for you Robin.

If you do not have a good bond with these two as of yet, and you say you have Donna out and she isnt even ready to bite you this time (that is a WONDERFUL thing btw) I am wondering why you would have these two out of the pouch and on things in a store such as Petsmart where they can be easily spooked and get away from you, having to be *chased down* and taking the chance of going backwards with the great progress you have been making.

Dont take this wrong, I would just really hate to see a newbie trying this and something really wrong happening.

Are they already really bonded to you and they were truly just pouch protective?
Posted By: 1daddyglider1

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/09/09 12:39 AM

I agree Peggy "newbies" should really know their gliders and behaviors before they ever take a suggie outside, even in a closed store. There are so many things that can spook your glider into running and hiding.I would Definitely work on this at home first.

Now if Donna with Bella knows for sure she will not take off and she is totally calm when on her(no little side jumps when her hand approaches her, no jerky jumpy movements when Donna moves, no scared look in her eyes)
Then taking her in and out of her pouch to show off does help them to trust and is a great way to start a conversation and also educate at the same time. The more times you take her out of pouch in public even for a few seconds or minutes the tighter your bond will grow.

I use to go with Peanut to Pet Smart and talk to people that had a dog and say my pet is in my pouch or pocket, and proceed to take her out, after we talked a bit then I would let her go back in pouch or ride on my shoulder as I walked around the store, it was her choice.

Didn't mean to intrude on your's progress post.
Art
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/09/09 01:44 AM

Day 8: Girls are doing pretty good, I opened the pouch up a bit more... Emma is stressing a bit. She's doing well though, all things considered. I tried to scoop her out of the pouch this afternoon, she didn't bite me but just gave me the "you've got to be kidding me" look and grumbled, didn't crab, but made the little noise that the girls make at each other when one wakes the other up. She curled back up.

I WAS able to get Pae out on my hands, she crawled around, was nervous at first (first time out in the living room) but calmed a bit and after it was a good experience (and she peed on me) I put her back in the cage and was able to pet her and Emma more.

I gave them some yummy yogurt (suddenly Emma was my best friend again!). So things are good.

Going to ease off a bit, I think that the full moon combined with closing the pouch up, pushed the girls a bit (also moved rooms on Sunday). So easing off and we'll see how they girls go with that. They really are doing wonderfully and are being so sweet.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/09/09 01:46 AM

Art, really you dont need to explain to me how it works, but Im glad you posted that for others to read. thumb

With a glider that is not completely bonded to you and feels you are their tree, at NO TIME should you be taking them out to allow them to check things out especially in an environment such as PetSmart. If the slightest bit of nervousness is still with a glider, it will shoot off in a heart beat and if there is a dog in there that loves to chase something down, and it is nearby, you are in for some trauma.

Now, with that being said, keep in mind I am NOT saying this is how Robin is with her gliders, but merely asking. Has her work with her gliders gotten to the point where she does not have any doubts her gliders will stay right there with her under any circumstance.

Prime example of a TRUE bond...one I witnessed YEARS ago, but one that a GLIDER (not a person) taught me.

There were a bunch of us all sitting around a round table outside. A bunch of oranges on a table, and this precious wonderful, amazing glider visiting with me and the oranges in a photo shoot. Her owner came up on the other side of the table and started talking. The gliders ears perked up and the owner called the gliders name. I watched this glider turn around and find her owner and go to her...Outside, around many folks and I believe there were even some dogs around, but could be mistaken.

THAT is a TRUE bond. Not one we just *Think* is there.

Who is this amazing glider that I will always hold dear to my heart and continue to think of the things and ways SHE taught me? None other than Baybe. Bourbons little girl.
(Yes, B, talking about this does have me in tears right now)

So not to take away from what any of you are doing, just keep in mind, and I have seen this written... Learn from the GLIDER, not from a person. You can listen to experiences, and things that others have done to connect with their glider, but really, you will never have a TRUE bond with a glider, unless you connect truly with the GLIDER.

So, that is why I asked Robin what I did and to really let others know, unless you do have that TRUE SPECIAL bond with your glider, I would NEVER recommend for you to take them out and let them off your person while in a place such as PetSmart.
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/09/09 02:13 AM

Peggy I will not answer for Robin, as she can do that, after all who knows her glider better than she, one of the things that everyone is learning, with me, is their gliders, they are spending each time with their glider learning them, learning to become one.. They follow their gliders lead, and try never to push them out of their "comfort zone", they have learned how to return them to that comfort zone, if they do get past it.

peggy it is funny this is like the 3rd time, you have used that example, tomorrow I may not be around and doing so well, as it is the 2nd anniversary of the day we lost Baybe.

each time I read that story, I know you do it with the love and true amazement that was in your eyes, then btw there was 2 dogs in the yard, day and gracie.. but what Baybe and I had was truly special, and what each of these people have with their glider is just as special. these folks have learned the tiniest littlest things about their glider that many people haven't clues about, the little movements, ones some never see, some that some may never see, but these folks have learned their glider all the way down to their slightest movements, they watch those movements at all times.

for those that have never met the one that started all of this. She was my motivation to try to share what we had built together with others, so that they too could have a "special " relationship with their gliders in spite of difficulties.

Baybe's Slideshow
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/09/09 02:18 AM

Bourbon was Baybe your first glider, and how old was she when she passed?

If it is too painful to talk about, I understand and will be keeping you in my thoughts tomorrow.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/09/09 02:26 AM

B...sorry, I didnt realize... hug2

But what I did notice in that slideshow is not only the first pic is of me holding her, but the last pic is the one of her with my special Boy Babbax...

She taught many of us a LOT B....
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/09/09 02:31 AM

yes she was, I did everything wrong with her, I made all the mistakes new owners make, I chased her up a tree the first night I owned her, I chased her around the house, in her cage, made her get in my pocket and bonding pouch, I new nothing..

she was 14 when she passed, there was no info out there except put her between 2 shirts etc.. bonding pouch.

her story is on here, I have her beginnings, I got many a blood drawn by Baybe, and we had to work very hard together to get where we became one . Baybe's time in the community, was for the community, she went to everyone, and anyone, and had no fear, she had the deepest old soul eyes you could ever imagine, even my worst enemys will speak very well ogf Baybe, with that special look in their eyes and the love in their heart, she was a special girl.

at the Ohio Gathering someone asked why I wasn't posting much I told them, they asked why I was in the community for so long, I told them Baybe was my motivation, we had something special we both wanted to share with everyone, they asked why I wasn't anymore, I told them Baybe had passed and so did my motivation. then they said something I will never forget, and that was," if you don't continue then you are smacking her memory in her face, and from there, I worked hard to perfect the techniques we had learned over the years.

I hear that same excitement in the voices and posts of each owner here that has stepped over the line to finally being in tune with their glider, bonding is something that continues over time, trust is the first step, a relationship based on that trust is the second step, the third step of reinforcing that relationship, that trust, that love and that understanding is spread out all over a lifetime.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/09/09 02:32 AM

Originally Posted By: Srlb
Ok, I have a question for you Robin.

If you do not have a good bond with these two as of yet, and you say you have Donna out and she isnt even ready to bite you this time (that is a WONDERFUL thing btw) I am wondering why you would have these two out of the pouch and on things in a store such as Petsmart where they can be easily spooked and get away from you, having to be *chased down* and taking the chance of going backwards with the great progress you have been making.

Dont take this wrong, I would just really hate to see a newbie trying this and something really wrong happening.

Are they already really bonded to you and they were truly just pouch protective?


I didn't take it wrong, and you made a very good point. But if you will notice... there is only a picture of BELLA at Petsmart. Donna was at home in her PP pouch where she belongs till "I" decide she gets to go out into the world. Did you see the pic of Bella clearly??? She was already about to glide right back to me, her "tree", in that pic even though she was only out of the pouch for about 30 seconds. I am thinking the lights and smells were overwhelming to her as she will explore and befriend everyone when we are at home. Bella was never the problem child, she has always been close to me, in fact she spends several hours a week sleeping in my bra, grooming me and chirping the entire time.

EDIT: Peggy... I added some details under the pictures so that the newer folks will knwo that I only took Bella to the petstore because she and I do have that trust and a bond. I can see where a misunderstanding with the photos could happen. The previous 4 pics were taken in my home last night.
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/09/09 02:33 AM

Baybe is not painful, to talk about , we had a great life together, she was a very very special glider, peggy, I have never seen you say so little about baybe.. LOL, thats okay.. It seems she has been on my mind a lot these days, nikki noticed that in my posts, but it just means that she is here with me, and we are still doing this together, for the community.
Posted By: Srlb

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/09/09 02:57 AM

No drama here Robin, but I will say I apologize that you took it that way. In no way was I saying you were dead wrong in what you were doing, but just asking if your bond has become that strong and I believe I even said that is wonderful.

Thank you for answering and making it clear to all that read and look at the pics that the glider you had was one that you ARE truly bonded with. I would hate for anyone to *skim* these threads and just assume that the glider you had with you was Donna.

Asking questions is what teaches us all, I meant no harm in the questions I asked. I will ask the questions I feel may be important to others.

As I stated, I do apologize you took it in the wrong manner. Maybe you should ask Bourbon, she can tell you how that post reads...

Quote:
peggy, I have never seen you say so little about baybe..


Isnt that the truth! LOL! I just didnt want to get off topic in this thread. That day, that particular experience with that particular glider, taught me more than any reading I have ever done....at least where bonding is concerned.


Edited to add:
Quote:
EDIT: Peggy... I added some details under the pictures so that the newer folks will knwo that I only took Bella to the petstore because she and I do have that trust and a bond. I can see where a misunderstanding with the photos could happen. The previous 4 pics were taken in my home last night.


Thank you.
I took a few things out of this one as well. grin
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/09/09 03:06 AM

No drama here... just in my home that I let leak into my response. I find it hard to sift through the sharks and get to the friendly folks these days. LOL I do apologize, and I feel bad you even got the opportunity to read my idiotic comment before I edited it. Crawling back in my hole now... LOL

But truthfully, I would NEVER take Donna into a public place. In fact, Donna never even goes into a bonding pouch, and may never be able to as it sends us into a backwards spiral in our trust building.

Now Bella... I do believe that girl loves me! I could be wrong, but she comes to ME for safety, and i feel comfortable bringing her out to show off and taking her out in public, even with other animals involved as I KNOW she will come to ME!

No offense taken Peggy, and thank you for bringing this to my attention so that the newer slaves will know the difference!
Posted By: SugareeErin

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/09/09 03:15 AM

hug2 hug2 hug2

I loved the slideshow, thank you for sharing! I can see how special Baybe was, such a beautiful sweet girl. gangel

It is just amazing the bond you can form with a glider. That is what I love about them so much.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/09/09 04:57 AM

Originally Posted By: JenShigles
Day 8: Girls are doing pretty good, I opened the pouch up a bit more... Emma is stressing a bit. She's doing well though, all things considered. I tried to scoop her out of the pouch this afternoon, she didn't bite me but just gave me the "you've got to be kidding me" look and grumbled, didn't crab, but made the little noise that the girls make at each other when one wakes the other up. She curled back up.

I WAS able to get Pae out on my hands, she crawled around, was nervous at first (first time out in the living room) but calmed a bit and after it was a good experience (and she peed on me) I put her back in the cage and was able to pet her and Emma more.

I gave them some yummy yogurt (suddenly Emma was my best friend again!). So things are good.

Going to ease off a bit, I think that the full moon combined with closing the pouch up, pushed the girls a bit (also moved rooms on Sunday). So easing off and we'll see how they girls go with that. They really are doing wonderfully and are being so sweet.


Jen, I am so sorry your post got lost in the melee. AWESOME WORK GIRL!!!!! I tell you, it took me nearly a month to be able to be able to read my glider's body language the way you are already doin! I am so sorry all the drama stole your thunder, and you got overlooked. You are doing such a great job! Bourbon will tell you herself how proud she is of you when things settle down a bit!
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/09/09 05:13 AM

Jen, FANTASTIC! And you got peed on! Either from nervousness or marking you but still...awesome.

Sassy is being a little doll tonight. I am amazed by how sweet but nervous this little girl is. See, she came to me because she kept drawing blood with her bites. Well, I've not been bitten yet! Nips, yes but no bites and no blood. We are taking baby steps and things are going good.

Baybe touched so many of us. I had the pleasure of spending time with Baybe and she truly was an angel in fur. She definately spoke to each of us that looked into her beautiful eyes and she TRULY loved each of us but none like she loved Bourbon.

Yes, she is still here with us. Thank you for sharing the photos with us again. The beauty of her soul outshines the brightest stars.

"Baybe.. She is in all the words that we all say to make another gliders life better. She is there and always will be."
Posted By: sugeebaby

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/09/09 08:58 PM

Lauren Tucek please cntact me regarding your pouch order.
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/10/09 03:45 AM

Okay, small update.

I've been telling you all about Ranger, who I THOUGHT was the more frightened of my two. While I was making progress with Ranger, Nika seemed to reach a standstill at about the point where she would sometimes get on my hand without me having to lure here and she would sometimes crab when I reached in to pet her. Bourbon gave me some tips on how to get her to keep progressing, but we really weren't getting anywhere. I haven't even called Bourbon in a bit because I didn't have any legitimate update for her-I felt like I wasn't making any progress at all.

Today though, I think I figured out what needs to happen with Nika. Since Ranger has gotten over his fear, he runs over to me when I come in the room, and jumps on my arm before I get the rept open as far as I want it. It can be really difficult to work with Nika while Ranger is running all over me trying to find somewhere to snuggle in and go to bed or jump off because he thinks it's playtime. While this is going on, Nika is just hanging out at the back of the rept, watching.

Today I decided I wasn't going to mess with Ranger-I HAVE to figure out what to do with Nika. So I got Ranger in a bonding pouch and gave him to my boyfriend so that I could work with Nika without Ranger. I lured her onto my hand with some yogurt a few times, pet her a little, then I took out her favorite bonding pouch and held it up to her. She crawled right in and I hung it around my neck. She poked out a few times, I gave her some lickys, and she went to sleep within ten minutes (this girl has the weirdest sleeping schedule).

I felt her moving a bit, so I looked down at her. She used to crab when I looked at her in the pouch, but she doesn't anymore. When I looked in, she was laying belly up grooming herself. This in itself was a big deal to me, because animals don't expose their tummies unless they aren't scared. So she's grooming herself and then she fell asleep like that, feet all tucked in with her tail curled around her. So I reach in there right...and she lets me rub her tummy. No crabbing, biting (she sometimes gives me little nips when I'm doing something she doesn't like), nothing.

I honestly think that Nika was only acting the way she did because RANGER was making her wound up. He's kind of like this little bundle of energy that wants to be everywhere at once, and Nika has always been calm and hesitant. SO-I think I'm just going to have to work with them one-on-one ALWAYS until she's really comfortable with me, then maybe I can carry them together smile


Sorry for such a long post. Wanted to be thorough. smile
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/10/09 08:38 AM

Oh... I did everything all wrong tonight. cry

I was at work and busy all day and night. Left for work at 6:30 this morning and just got back (after midnight). Well... I tried to give the girls yogurt and talk to them. Emma was good about the whole thing. But Pae GRABBED onto my finger, I mean, nails DIGGING into my finger and I could NOT twist away, so she licked all of the yogurt off and CHOP CHOP CHOP CHOP... oh it hurt so bad. My finger hurts like crazy. She wouldn't let me pet her, just got defensive when I tried, so I talked to her but she didn't calm really fast. Then that set Emma off so she gave me a little crab to get away from her. Oy...

Honestly guys, I have had SUCH a hard week in so many ways. I hate ending it like that. It didn't turn out good at all.


I am so sorry that I didn't answer your phone call Bourbon. frown I literally just got home then this drama started.

need_hug
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/10/09 03:09 PM

hug2 hug2 hug2

I'm so sorry this week was bad...spend some time with your suggies this weekend and relax!!! Hopefully you'll feel better soon smile
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/10/09 08:41 PM

How is everyone doing?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/10/09 09:16 PM

My pouch protective pouch arrived!!! Thank you Karen! They look great.

I put it in the cage and Emma checked it out and crawled right in it. Pae was more interested in me (was wearing hubby's sweatshirt and did NOT smell right). She came out on my arms and was smelling me up and down but wasn't nervous at all. She was being super sweet, I actually thought she was going to crawl down my sweatshirt.

When I went to put Pae on the top shelf of the cage, Emma crabbed at me and lunged (like olden times). Soooo I opened the pouch even more than the make-shift ever was and am trying that. They are currently checking it out and Pae is ready to sleep in it. smile

So anyways, I'm glad it came, this is much easier to work with that the piece of fleece I was using! laugh
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/10/09 11:40 PM

Little Nika sleeping in my hand.

Attached picture 0110091817.jpg
Attached picture 0110091817a.jpg
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/11/09 02:19 AM

That is such a cute picture!
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/11/09 06:13 AM

lol nika is doing great!!!!! seems you read her like a book, hows does it feel to communicate with BOTH of your gliders ?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/11/09 06:40 AM

Look at that baby sleeping in Mommy's hand! You go girl!
Posted By: SugareeErin

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/11/09 06:44 AM

awwww how sweet smile
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/11/09 06:48 AM

AWESOME! I'm typing this one handed because i have Ranger asleep in my other hand. after i got off the phone with you bourbon i went to see the gliders and ranger was in the pouch looking sleepy and nika was up and playing, so i scooped ranger out of the pouch (awake, remember) and held him against me, where he went to sleep. No crabbing whatsoever. who knows, maybe this spaz WILL turn out to be a cuddlebug lol. Does he know he's nocturnal, btw??

Nika still needs some work, but shes soooo much beter when ranger isnt there lol.
Posted By: DeeDancer

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/11/09 06:52 AM

it took me 10 mins to type that one handed, so i just saw your posts Erin and Robin, thanks smile
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/11/09 08:05 AM

you know you can't be holding that glider LOL, you haven't waited long enough..
Posted By: chattrbabe

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/11/09 08:16 AM

roflmao Maybe my Ranger will come along just like yours Deanna. roflmao

He's just to the point where I can pet him on his head and somethimes his body without being bitten. mlove
Posted By: Bourbon

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/11/09 09:29 AM

Jen, I think your post reiterated what we have said from the beginning, that at any time, these gliders get out of their comfort zone and feel unsure that they can and will use their natural defenses.

The TRUST BUILDING techniques you all are using requires that constant awareness of theirs as well as your own anxieties. we all are told regularly, that they feel what we feel, they feel when we are stressed and unsure, and they will react to that. just as you all are learning that what they feel you also are reacting to.

those that have been really nailed by their glider in the past has worked hard to overcome that apprehension. and sometimes it creeps back in especially after a night you had jen. this is just a reminder to sit back and be sure you set that apprehension aside and really understand that getting them back to their comfort zone is important.

also for those reading this especially new owners. this technique is far from a quick fix, there is no quick fix, however, what we have done is removed reason for them to feel fearful, so that they can begin the trust building process. We show them that they have other alternative ways of showing their distress, we do it all in a positive and fun way for the owners as well as the gliders. Everyone here has done that by learning their glider, learning their body language. and this is an ongoing process. by you learning their body language, and listening to it, you are in the first stages of actually communicating with your glider, each new body language you learn is another sign in their language. and it is communicating, learning each other is the best gift you can give each other, soon those signs will become your foundation.

the first thing they are doing is getting their glider into a comfort zone for the glider, then they work on trust issues, there is talk of bonding with these gliders, but it is not from those that are doing the work. the people on this thread knows that trust building is a stepping stone , the bonding starts with consistency and never ends. also there are different types of bonds between gliders and their owners.

example, Robins gliders bella is bonded to robin, she is sweet docile and loves to be held, petted and she sees robin as her other half, whereas Donna may end up being a playtime glider who doesn't want that intimacy, that cuddling that touch of being held, but that doesn't mean that donna is not bonding with robin in her own way. She may have already started bonding with robin, it isn't for me to say, bonding is a connection between 2 people or objects, so since they have already started to communicate between each other, they have already started bonding. how deep and intimate that bond gets, is on an individual basis. that is up to them to decide how to define their bond.

the same goes for each and every one of you and your gliders, it isn't up to anyone to decide what bond is right for you or your glider,

you all have already learned so much about each other (your gliders and your gliders about you) you all are learning to coexist in a comfort zone that is beneficial to YOUR relationships.

what you all have learned is already proving to carry forward to each and every glider in your home, now and in the future.

the bond I had with Baybe didn't just happen it was something that grew each and every day I spent with her. but also keep in mind, I also had a bond with smokey, it was a different type, he was my adhd neurotic one, we were bonded, but in a different way, he had a different personality, different character make-up, and different ways of showing me he loved me as well. but it didn't change the fact he was STILL a bonded glider.

bonded gliders still have issues, we as owners have our own issues, it is how we react to those issues that stand out and remind us, we are not perfect, not one of us.

bonded gliders CAN still bite, bonded gliders CAN still crab, bonded gliders can still be afraid of their environment, but aware owners will do everything in their power to be there for them to calm their fear, to reduce their feelings of need to show it in such an aggressive manner

prime example is when the gliders are out of THEIR comfort zone, those lunger's and biters that used to bit down hard and break the skin, are only placing their teeth on you without any pressure. That intense crabbing that used to fill their voices and eyes with terror is just a garble and very slight crabbing. look at how far you really have come, and be proud of it all.

be proud of the relationships you have built with your gliders, you all (your gliders and you) have worked very hard to get where you are. NO ONE knows your gliders better than you, YOU live with them, YOU know whether your glider is afraid of you or it's environment, which in the end means only YOU can define the kind of relationship you have with them, you have a lifetime to build and build on that bond.
Posted By: LSardou

Re: Bonding with a Pouch Protective Glider - Part - 01/11/09 07:28 PM

Please go to Part 4 here
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