bonding method debate

Per requests, I'm starting a separate topic. There are many different bonding methods. Not one of them is a sure fire success w/every glider. However, I do want to make some important points that should be considered.

What is normal behavior? We have to be sure we are not trying to change a glider's normal behavior to suit our desires for a more handleable pet. Gliders crab. It's a natural action and should not be mistaken as abberant behavior.

Time and patience. It is important to allow a glider time to get accustomed to any change in their lives. Stress is a huge factor. Moving the cage to a new room is enough to upset some gliders. Some gliders have such extreme anxiety that the addition or removal of a toy can cause problems. We must allow time...whether it be days, weeks or months. Trust is something that must be earned. It is not freely given.

Each glider is an individual. Not every glider bonds or gives trust to the same degree. Some gliders will be bra babies, some will climb on their people. Some gliders will not. Some prefer to have their out of cage time to play w/toys and explore and don't want to be touched or held. We must accept the glider for who it is and not force our expectations onto them.

We must find the "why" of behavior. Was the glider every injured? Was food withheld? These are some questions whose answers can lead you to the best way to help that glider.

The value of enrichment. Gliders are intelligent and active. They need avenues to express and encourage mental and physical activity. Not every glider likes the same types of toys, pouches, food, etc. We must invest the effort to discover what is best for that glider. Observation and trying different things and watch the glider's reaction to it. A toy is worthless if the glider won't play w/it. W/out the correct enrichment, a glider has nothing to do but eat and sleep. Stress can build and physical and behavior problems can be brought on.

There are extreme cases that do require more extreme methods to help the glider, BUT one must be sure that is the case. Extreme methods should not be used simply to change behavior that is undesirable to the human, yet is normal for the glider.

Put yourself in the glider's life. Why are you acting the way you are? Are you afraid? Are you hurt? Figuring out the why is the first step. Don't be afraid to spend time...a lot of it. Some gliders take months to learn to trust you. They have to learn that you are safe and that you mean them no harm. I believe that positive reinforcement is the avenue in which to accomplish that. It is worth the wait.

It is with any wild animal species- you can take them out of the wild but you can't take the wild out of them. There are some who will hold onto that wild part and never let go, and then there are others if caught at the right time, you'd never know they were a wild animal.

Kate- your starting post is excellent. It touches on every aspect. All your tips and points don't just apply to rescue/rehomes, some joey's straight from their parents have these same issues.

With any bonding technique, the first step is to build trust. If you don't have trust, you will not make any progress. When gliders feel safer in their home or pouch, and you take that away from them, how are you building trust? You just took the one security away from them.

Me personally, I feel the ppp is the most extreme method of building a bond & trust with gliders. It should be the last resort of countless time & patience in other bonding techniques. I don't feel it's the technique to use on a newly acquired glider, neither of you have gotten to know each other. I am speaking from experience, I've tried the ppp. It was not the way to get through to my gliders that some say needed it- so call me a coward but with the time, patience, love and undestanding, I have had break throughs on gliders who were living in fear.

I've had a little of everything. Some were just crabby joeys, others were unsocialized and some trauma cases.

My Tony was a traumatized glider, he was used for breeding and from what I gathered was a great dad. He loved his babies and couldn't take being separated from them. He got mean when they were pulled, he bit his owner....he went after her and any other person for that matter. His previous owner would take the mom and the joeys out and play with them, she became scared of him and would toss packets of KFC honey in the cage to divert him while she got the family out.
Tony came to me when she advertised looking for a glider boot camp, she wanted him shipped off somewhere. I told her I would take him and she drove 5 hours the next day to dump him off at my house.
That was the maddest glider I've ever seen, he would not only come after you, but he turned on himself too. He ripped his hair out in chunks!!!! He freaked out over the simplest of things such as moviing one toy in his cage. I had to buy double of everything that was in his cage and when I changed out with others, they had to go back into the same place.
Taking him to the vet for a check and neuter, caused him to tear himself a mohawk. He was so pitiful and it was heartbreaking but I worked with him slowly. His pouch was his safety zone, he needed that. If I'd used an open type of pouch for him, there is no doubt in my mind that I would have had a dead glider on my hands.
After working with him, gaining his trust and calming him down, I was able to intro him with a sweet little girl. Between me and her, he no longer rips his hair, I can put different toys in different places and he now loves exploring new things. He still didn't want to be on me, he will come to me, take treats, and is not angry anymore. All this HAD to be done slowly, with love and patience.

The other night, I was in the room with Tony and Carm giving treats, and Tony came and got his but didn't scamper off, he stayed. Carm got on my arm and ate her treat there. The light I have in the room is a blue light and it takes my eyes a minute to adjust to the lighting to be able to see well. When "Tony" came back for another treat, I realized it was CARM, Tony was the one on my arm!!!!!!!
I cried tears of joy!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree with Nancy. The PP pouch should be used as a last resort and only if all else fails without any progress at all. i think a good idea would be to make a pouch that is very shallow, instead of using one that has no pouch in it at all. make it deep enough for her to hide in but shallow enough so that you can see her and she can see you, and so that you don't have to stick your hand down into a dark hole of death...just an idea though

I'm glad to hear about the successes of the Pouch protective pouch, but I agree that gliders need to be given time anf owners need to have patience with them.

You just described my Lounging Hammock- it does exactly just that and I have one in use right now. We have started making progress, again though it's one of those slow and steady steps, no over night miracles.

could you send me a pic? I'd like to see what it looks like...unless it's on your website?

EDIT:: Yeah, it's on your website. That's really neat! I made a no sew pouch like that .

Her are some pics of the pouch I made. Deep enough for her to hide in but shallow enough so that I can see her and so she just has to stick her head up to see out. I just put her in there, and she hasn't crabbed at me once!! In the other pouch, the littlest noise and she was crabbing and lunging.

Oh, and don't mind the small cage, she doesn't live in it, I just put her in there so she can be out in the main house with me and get exposed to sights and sounds. Oh yeah, and that's a joey in the pouch with her as well.

I was supposed to keep them a secret until the SSS but I feel like I need to bring them up now. The mother was attacked by her mate and hada very bad mating wound, and she's been very traumatized. I haven't official declared her pouch protective but she certainly does act like it! that's all I'm saying for now, the whole suprise isn't ruined yet so we'll see

In my experience I've seen many different kinds of behavioral situations. From both extremely traumatic emotional abuse to starting a joey from day 1 OOP. And I can say that EACH glider I've had has at some point exhibited some form of the "symptoms" of a PP glider for whatever reason. Should I have not known to look a little further into each situation I may have dubbed a few of them "pouch protective" - when in reality they were just reacting normally for THAT particular glider. Each glider though has come around, even the ones that could of been labeled "pouch protective" by definition.

I think there needs to be clear distinction between a glider that is just scared and reacting in such a way because of normal reasons (new family, new pets in the home, any number of reasons, etc), or TRULY pouch protective.

As far as the PP pouch technique, I don't agree with taking away area's for the gliders to hide. Even gliders with security blankets (like hiding places) are capable of bonding, and learning trust. It just takes time and patience in my experience. Watching a glider run around in fear because they have no place to hide would just be very sad for me. People new to gliders could mistake this form of "bonding" or "trust building" as a protocol and use it (or perhaps misuse it) without the individual guidance that is recommended. As I understand it what one does with the PP pouch and in conjunction with it is tailored for each individual? But the pouches are available for sale to anyone, making the use of them open to ANY interpretation.

It is so obvious to me that most of you have no idea about the full concept of the use of the ppp and the "methods" being used. I see closed minds at work here that are not willing to accept that there is no one specific set of rules being used with these gliders.

It is NOT BLACK AND WHITE. Each glider and owner is using "techniques" specifically for THEIR SITUATION. The gliders are not being traumatized. Chasing a scared glider around the cage is NOT being advised or suggested, quite the opposite. The gliders are not being forced at all to do anything that THEY don't want to do and they are getting to work at the GLIDER'S pace and not being rushed into anything.

Also, the ppp is designed so that it can be adjusted as to how "open" it is. It can hang on the side of the cage where it is closed like a regular pouch or it can go full open where it is like a hammock. It does have about an inch to an inch and a half sewn on the sides at the bottom to create a shallow pouch of sorts. The reason for this design is so that each pouch can be adjusted for each glider's specific needs and stage with the goal of having it all the way closed in the long run (how ever long it takes for each individual glider) and then transition them over to a regular cage pouch, tent or whatever works for THAT individual glider and owner.

I understand what your saying Dancing. And I didn't see anywhere where someone said gliders were being chased around the cage? Or that there was one set way the PP is used?

Can't speak on the behalf of anyone else, but I sure try to view everything with an open mind. I read the threads where people are posting their experiences with the PP method. And without finding exact quotes I've seen where they've taken the gliders things out and the glider is running around the cage frantically looking for somewhere to hide, and the owner feels bad for the glider.

In MY opinion (which no one has to agree with) there are other ways to bond with a glider, other ways to earn the trust of a glider than having a scared glider running around their cage looking for somewhere to hide. I like a more stress-free/gentler approach personally.

Just like you said, I did say that each person is "coached" on the appropriate way to use the PP pouch in their own situations. But I did think that a person new to gliders might just make the purchase (the PP pouch) and go off of their own observations of others experiences:

I am the proud mommy to 5 delightfully different gliders!

I learned long ago as the mom to 5 sons that each one is different. Things that worked well with one - did not work at all with the others. For example, each one developed his own method of falling asleep at night #1 sucked his fingers and carried a blankie, #2 could not keep himself still so I learned to put my hand on his back and rock him until he relaxed enough to sleep. #3 would not sleep when the house was quiet - he got a radio on in his room all night, #4 was my pacifier baby from day 1 even in the newborn nursery, #5 was the rocking chair kid - would not sleep unless I rocked him for 5 minutes - rarely longer.

I look at my gliders the same way. They are my new babies. It is my job as their mommy to learn FROM THEM what makes them the most comfortable. Just like skin kids - it is a matter of reading their cues to see what makes them the most comfortable.

Sassy and Corky were both 8 wks OOP when I adopted them. Sassy barely crabbed at all and would let me pick her up out of the pouch to put her in a bonding pouch with in a couple of days. Corky crabbed when disturbed but if he had a yogie in his hand/mouth he would let me take him out of the pouch. (Funny sounds crabbing with a mouthful and squeeking between bites. I loved it)

Missy and Mehitabel joined the family two months later at 8 & 9 weeks OOP respectively. Missy is a sweetheart and loves to be picked up and cuddled in my hands. I was told by Lisa at Suncoast, when I picked them up that Mehitabel was going to need "A lot of work". Lisa had even had her nephew carrying this baby around in a bonding pouch several hours more than all the other babies because she was SO Crabby. Mehitabel was one loud little glider. She would literally stand up in the pouch like a little ninja. Fingers with licky treats.... she bit first and asked questions about the treat later. I knew she was going to be a challenge.

So I watched Missy & Mehitabel carefully the first few days I had them when they were exploring the cage. Mehitabel was really the SHY one. If she had a piece of food - Missy would just walk up and take it from her hand. She got this surprised look on her face and went to get another bite - then she would take it someplace and hide to eat it, behind the wheel, back in the pouch any where she could finish the piece of food. I gave them multiple plates so both ate well but I learned that Mehitabel WAS NOT THE AGRESSIVE GLIDER she pretended to be.

Putting a hand in their pouch was just plain dangerous. I switched to hanging bonding pouches (mine have clips no strings) in the cage. This let Mehitabel look out the window when I talked to her before opening the cage to see that I was coming. I could then zip the pouch and take them out to be carried. So I learned from her that this helped her accept being taken out of the cage.

Mehitabel still after 2 months does not like hands coming into the pouch. I carry them all together (currently the quad - Sassy, Corky, Missy & Mehitabel) to the tent in their sleeping pouch. I roll the top down and Corky is always first to come out to play. Sassy is next and goes looking for the treat jar. Missy comes out next and always runs up to my left shoulder and purrs in my ear. Mehitabel - stays in the pouch but lets me roll it down almost flat. I talk to her, give her a treat (Sassy will open the container & help herself if I do not give them each a yogie) then Mehitabel runs up to the corner of the tent where she watches everyone play. Twenty or thirty minutes later she is ready to join in, comes to sit on my lap and is just as lovey as the others - when she is ready.

My newest glider, Archy is still in solitary confinement - 1 more week to go on his 30 days but his neuter is 2 weeks away so he gets to play with mommy alone for a while longer. He joined the family in December at 4 months OOP. He has no problem with me picking him up out of the pouch. He even seems to like to be held in my hands (the others like to be petted not held). I think he will be the sweetest of the bunch when he gets to move in with them in a month or so but Archy & I are still getting to know each other.

The point of this long post is that EACH of my gliders (like my kids) are very much individuals. If they crab, I assume that what ever I just did was something that made them uncomfortable, at that moment. I have to pay attention to their responses and habits to see what they like to do. The more independent they get during tent time the more I see their habits. So I know what makes them comfortable and what does not.

Part of the joy of having my 5 little babies is learning more about their personalities each day. Bonding is really a growing trust between each of them and myself. It happens on their time and cannot be forced. When Mehitabel takes 20 minutes before she comes to me in the tent instead of 30 or more - that is my progress. Eventually she may have a favorite spot on me to go first, as Missy does, but again maybe not. That is up to her.

Life with gilders is a constant learning process for me.

Another point also has me concerned about the advice to new owners to use the PP pouch.

As stated earlier in this thread - many new owners are led to believe their scared, crabbing new joey must be pouch protective and needs to begin the PP pouch method in order to begin bonding.

The unfortunate situation is that a new owner who asks for help with bonding has been advised all too frequently that this is the approach they must use. This advice is very often coming from other relatively NEW OWNERS who have also decided their new joey is pouch protective because it crabs when they try to hold it.

At least one of the folks posting advice to new owners on how to bond with their giders only JOINED GC in SEPTEMBER 2008 and does not yet have a glider of her own - but has made enough posts to get the SENIOR GLIDER MEMBER designation. This can be very misleading to a new glider owner who thinks this individual's advice is based on experience - not just someone who is repeating information she has read on the boards.

Have any of you here actually talked to Bourbon. She will ask many questions. Such as, what triggers your glider. You answer and she say's "try again". She makes you think about the issues that are the root. She doesn't say, "put a PPP in there and everything will be okay." She says hey, try this. You do while you are on the phone with her, then tell her what happened. Then based on your gliders response, she will tell you to continue, discontinue or modify.

The gliders enrichment has never been taken away. Their cages are not stripped of everything but food and PPP.

I'm so sick of people putting this method down. Especially if you have never tried it or just got your first pair of suggies.

My 2 males were not PP until they were intro'd to 2 girls. Then all 4 became very PP. I wish I had chronicalled my journey on video.

The gliders using the PPP hopefully can transition into a regular pouch one day. Mine can't yet, but they still have an awesome pouch, designed by my girlfriend that suits their needs. They are so much happier now than they were 2 months ago. (Or is that too fast for some of you)

For a bunch of people that are here for the "good of the glider", I would think you would embrance anything that helped better a gliders life.

Would it be better if I just left my 4 rescues in a cage and never touched them, talked to them or did anything to give them a great quality of life?

Yes, I have talked to her and yes I have listened to this technique be explained. This is simply a difference of opinion on bonding method. No one will agree and no one needs to. I'm trying to point out that we should not be trying to change a glider's "normal" behavior. Try to put yourself in the shoes of someone brand new to online forums. They have a glider that is doing well, but does crab when they touch the pouch. There is no "bad" behavior. They come here and read about all these gliders who crab being put into this pouch and at least some of their possessions being taken away. Couldn't they easily think that there is something wrong w/their glider because of a normal behavior? I'm trying to show that positive reinforcement can and does work very well w/many gliders. That is my opinion. A few months ago, an introduction method was discussed here. 2 "strangers" were introduced under extremely stressful circumstances...I believe it was in a shower. I felt that was cruel and it was rushing something (introductions) that should not be rushed. I guess that having and voicing a differing opinon can be viewed as negative, but it's simply a different way of looking at things.

I think Kate said with any bonding method its important to first try and figure out the "why" a glider is acting the way it is.



Since you mention it, if you go here:
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/676642/1

It has some pictures of a before and after cage (as well as other descriptions of cages "taken everything out, even their wheel" sorry it was taken literally ), where most everything is taken out. Yes there are two hanging toys.



I dont think anyone is "putting down" this method here. They are just voicing their preference for a different way of gaining a gliders trust. There are several ways to bond with gliders, many. Not any one is the only way.



Im very happy to hear you've found a method that is working for you and your gliders. And there is NO time limit for when bonding/trust should happen. It should be at their own pace - no matter how long that may be.




Being someone that works with rescues who often times have emotional issues, that would sadden me.

But that isn't what is being suggested here. Taking the time a glider needs to adjust to their new surroundings/people does not mean to leave a glider in their cage and never touch or talk to them.

just like someone telling others to get a tent and go buy a bonding pouch without the person being talked to indivually, as to how to properly use them..

well lets go there then, this is a bonding technique debate.. so lets play..

for starts for those that don't know me, I have been in the GLIDER community for over 16 years, I have worked not only with the trust building and bonding of thousands of gliders over those years, but also with medical, diets, etc..

My heart and my passion and most of the last 2 decades of my life have been dedicated to "GLIDERS" oh yeah by the way I also have an autistic grandson who requires special care , and behavioral training, who also lives with the basic animal instinct of fight or flight when he is in mode,.

I have run rescues and ran a rescue home for over 10 years, with great success of not having an overload of gliders into my care, they are rehabbed and placed.

I run a behavior rehab rescue home for rescues with special behavioral problems, I teach them to trust people and then they are placed into permanent homes where the owners continue with the training of how to work with their gliders,

I place gliders after the owners come to my home and work with them, learn their issues, and have resources to request help.

I have over the years developed different bonding techniques, used many of the ones available and will continue the trial and error till I have something that we can put into a book, I work with all kinds of gliders from basic pouch protective gliders to pit bull biters, rippers and those that are truly out of control.

now I have placed my experience out here for all to see, be sure to place your each of you.

now to the issue at hand, you don't like the pouch protective pouch.. don't use it. you are worried about what someone may do with it. well many owners that I work with I start off with a phone conversation of 2 hours plus for each one. During that time, I get in tune wiyth those owners, find out what they have already tried and find out at what point they are at now. then we , the owner and I developed a plan, that plan is simple, and starts them out very slow, it's purpose is to get them to trust their glider, understand their glider, start seeing life through their eyes.

Did you know that most people that have come to me, have already tried all the other methods?

Did you know that most gliders are chased around the room, the first time it "escapes"

Did you know the average owner takes a crabbing glider from it's pouch to stick into a bonding pouch?

Did you know many owners try to play with their glider the first day they get them?

I am sure you know that "MOST" new owners do this.. why??? because of lack of education on the breeders, rescue homes and the people on the boards fail to tell them otherwise.

read the posts, it is there, let the glider go, let them get used to you, give them time, it takes awhile. try a tent it works great, carry them in a bonding pouch..

these are the words that are used, all I have read from your group is other techniques, but nothing constructive is being written..

all the above is great advice, but who is taking these new owners by the hand and SHOWING them the right way to do things?

Nancy has her hammock, and it works but nothing miraculous according to her, Nancy call me, I can help you, then you decide.

I work individually with each and every person, one on one, many hours per day many times per week, in fact daily I am in contact with them.

"the removal of ALL their things" is ludicrous and anyone that knows me, KNOWS I would never hurt a glider mentally or physically, and if that is what you want people to believe, then that is your bad. someone very close to me today told me. it isn't about what a few others think, it is about what you feel is right in your own heart.

do I think different? maybe, but here is what I have found to be fact.. crabbing is a sign of fear, if that is mistaken for grumpiness, then you must start listening to your gliders more. The gliders make up to 50 different sounds, each meaning something different.

Did you know once your glider stops crabbing, that the only time you hear them crab after that , they are totally petrified.

crabbing is not a good sign, and to allow a glider to crab for long periods of time (days, weeks, months, years. is far more cruel than anything else I have seen or dealt with.

I have worked with owners who tell me their gliders are "vocal" because they crab, till they know it is them. but are okay with that. Me I am not, If you live in a situation where you have crabbing, lunging biters, and think that is okay, then again, you need to look at the gliders eyes, start paying attention to their body language, to their feelings, to their reactions. and tell me which one seems less afraid.

if you are holding your glider and it is crabbing, don't do it, they are afraid.. If you take them out of the pouch and put them into a bonding pouch, and they are crabbing, they are afraid. stop, back up, start at the beginning, take the time to let the glider get to know you, your movements, your voice and the good things, your hands provide to them.

as for the older methods, and the most commonly suggested techniques, mine included, NONE of them is good with a direction, Val you and Kate run rescue homes, it is not our job to bond with these gliders, but it is our job to teach them to trust so that they can bond with their new owners. your methods may take weeks, months and years. maybe you have the space time and money to wait that long, but I don't and won't. I won't sit back and think it is okay for a glider to crab for months before a method works, when I can accomplish the same thing in a very short period of time, and the glider is fine with it.

using words like cruel, stockholme syndrom, and evil.. is not the basis for any of the techniques.

use a technique that works for you, your time contra int your ability and your expectations.

I have one goal, it is that the gliders are no longer afraid, the "bonding" is is between the gliders and the owners and that is something that takes time. each glider reaches their own level, each owner, understands that not all gliders reach the same levels as others. but ALL of the gliders are able to be fed, they do not crab, they do not lunge, and guess what, they do not run from their owners, in fact it is the opposite, they come to their owners, and play on them , with them.

The average time to get the crabbing and lunging to stop is 3-5 days. the average time these people are working directly with me on their plan, is about 2 months. the gliders lead their owners, they let their owners know when it is time to move forward.

these owners I am working with , don't chase their glider under ANY circumstance, they don't make their glider do any thing they are not ready to do. it is ALL done at the gliders pace.

now I will address any and all issues on any and all bonding techniques, as to why they could be detrimental without direction.

Kinue.. let me start with your concerns..



The problem is many times we deal with rescues, there is not a cut and dry reason why they react the way they do, all we can do is speculate. like a previous owner is going to step right up and say.. hmm I smacked my glider in the cage cause he bit me, or I threw my glider across the room cause he bit me...

So since many times we don't have that history, we can only start from where we are, based on their reactions to different things and different environments.. only in a perfect world will we have all the answers.



did you look at what was there before, lots of places to hide in, and yes those were removed, wheels are removed if they are wodents, because of the front cover, hanging toys are fine, and bridges, hammocks, foraging toys, ropes walks most have used their bridges as their temp pouches, when you first remove the items depending on what you have filled your cage with, it may seem naked.. things like coconut huts, tunnels, triangles, cubes etc.. have been removed.

anyone know who made the first pouch for a glider that has been here in the states? in the wild they don't have all that stuff, but they do use holes in their trees, 300 foot in the air. where they don't see people, and where they don't hear activity going on right outside of their hole.



yes the purpose of this thread and the infiltration of the other thread was to put it down, calling the method cruel, and mind control, and other offenses phrases was not to suggest there are other methods.

there are other methods, and I use many of them, these people on the thread, have started that thread, as a support for each other, to update everyone in the group as to their own progress. if people have progress with their gliders they are going to recommend what they have tried that works, much the same as you, kate, and val is going to suggest to others what has worked for you.



if you listen to what everyone in that thread is saying, they are trying to tell you, they are going at the gliders pace, they can not move forward till the glider wants them to, the gliders lead the program. there is no time limit or element, and each of these people are willing to wait for their glider, at their gliders pace.

Well Bourbon you must have forgotten because I did go to you for help, well over 2yrs ago with my Candy & Chase- you told me I need the ppp- so you had one sent to me, I was one of the first one's to get one. All that was told to me was take anything out that they can hide in or behind. So I did, I then called you and told you how freaked out they were and how they were reacting and that I gave them back their pouch- I don't remember your exact words but it was more along the lines that I was a coward I didn't try enough.

I'm glad to see it sounds like you've changed how you handle the ppp gliders and their owners. I was fairly new in to rescueing and you didn't offer no step by step plan to help me make a break through with building trust with Candy & Chase.

Now I have Miley, I won't even tempt to use the ppp with her- it doesn't work for me. yeah I'm using the hammock- you know why, I don't NEED an overnight miracle with gliders.

So Deliahsmom- there's the answer to your question, yes some of us have talked to Bourbon and have tried the ppp. Just like diets, cages and anything else out there related to gliders- their not for everyone but everyone is allowed their opinions and experiences to be voiced- not just the positive one's at that.

But it has been said over and over each glider and their owners ppp plan is different, so why bother recommending what works because in actuality- that's why you won't just list the steps publicly- you say each glider is different.

Kate


it does and is used very heavily in this plan and programn, the first thing we do is remove the things that makes the glider afraid.

if you walked by the cage, shuffling papers and your gliders start crabbing and biting their pouch.. what do you do??

continue the rustling, of notice it, stop the rustling and tell them your sorry, my money is on the second choice.

this is exactly what we do with everything that causes fear amongst our gliders, then we work on the safe factor, positive reinforcement, treats, calm talking, no assertive moves,

you have assumed the things we have removed from the cage, are things the gliders have chosen for themselves, give them a choice of high activity items in the cage and a closed pouch.. most gliders would prefer the high activity "enrichment items..

by the way enrichment things in the cage, are things that reproduce what they would do in the wild, climbing, foraging, running jumping etc.. offer tail carriers items to play with.. these are enrichment items, and they are all allowed in the cage..

by the way, things are added back to the cage as the gliders progress.

but me personally, I wouldn't make my glider sleep in a place where they are afraid. and yes if they crab in their pouch they are afraid, afraid of the unknown, sounds they can not identify, movements of the cage, etc..

pouch protective gliders, do not actually protect their pouch, they are afraid of things they hear and can not see.

commonly seen when the glider is out of the pouch they are fine, happy, sweet etc..

This is a debate and that is how we learn things and share ideas, thoughts and theories, I don't think I'd call that playing but whatever....
Have to go and tend to my gliders, but I'll be back to share some of my thoughts soon.

I have no issue with the pouch itself. I worry when enrichment is removed from a gliders life. I know how important it is in my gliders lives, everyday. And if removed I know the stress it would cause. What exactly are they allowed to have? Only toys that cannot be hidden in right? For how long does this continue?




I've seen the posts, I know there is bad information out there - as well as good. But I do agree a glider needs to go at THEIR own pace. They should determine how quickly bonding/trust building go. Not the other way around. Especially not the cases where its a rescue who may have a awful damaged emotional past. In my experience it is they who need the most care taken.



I think its wonderful you work with people everyday, it is a great service to the community. I truly believe education is the key. We must all take the time to research and look into things for ourselves. With that knowledge people can make fully informed decisions on everyting for their gliders.



I do agree that crabbing is a sign of fear. When a cage is accidently bumped there are gliders here that let out a crab. But yes, they do stop once they hear my voice or see that its me. This is normal glider behavior to crab at something that is unknown at the time and settle once it is known.


I disagree here. I have a glider that mini-crabs while she is holding my finger licking it. She may be the exception though, not the rule.

Gliders are going to crab. It is a normal noise they make. Its as if asking a dog not to bark. They will do it when alarmed, or any other time that warrents it. Crabbing does not always go along with lunging bites, or scared "ninja" stances. Some gliders only crab when there is a logical reason... Like you said - fear. But that fear can be a loud noise, or a sudden movement of the cage. This is perfectly normal. I would be afraid if I didn't hear a crab every once in a while.



I couldn't agree more! Going at a gliders pace is something Im a BIG advocate of!



Again I agree! I reach these same goals, but dont remove enrichment. Its just a difference of approach. Goals can be reached using alternate routes.

No one is asking for an overnight miracle, but for the glider's sake, isn't it better if they learn to trust sooner rather than later? I think it is a good thing for a glider to learn to trust sooner so that they are not living in fear for say, six months instead of a month. Especially gliders that are in a rescue-the sooner they move on to their forever home, the better, right? Clearly I don't have the experience that anyone else here does, that's why I'm asking this question.

Nancy as I have said earlier, life with gliders is trial and error, and if we stop trying new methods, and different things then we are still only using the older slow ways. there are some who the pouch hasn't worked for, brandy has posted public ally many times as have others, but you know what, they still tried other things till they found what works for them.

If you were to read the thread, you will see many people with different issues with their gliders, but at least you have people who are learning who is still trying to make a difference, the knowledge they have gained through all of this is far more valuable than they could have learned just playing in a tent. and for some of these gliders, tents were not even an option, in fact getting in to feed them was huge issues.

read each story, about each person, you will see their successes, as well as their disappointments, you will see that no matter what, they never gave up on their glider.

these types of gliders hit rescue homes all the time, or they are passed on to unsuspecting new owners many times several new owners. who really cares what method a person uses if it works, I don't like the bonding pouch before trust is built, but if it works for "SOME" then so be it, I can go onto each thread where it is advised, and jump in and tell my concerns, my fears, and my experienced with owners that have done it. but instead I would rather step up to the plate and help them after the fact, they at least tried. They followed peoples advise. and in order to help the glider we "MUST" help the owner first.

Deanna, you can explain what I am trying to say about taking it at the gliders own pace, you have been led by your glider from the beginning..

This is a debate about a bonding method. The people involved don't really matter. I've only been in the online glider community for a short time. I have interned at a zoo and discussed behavior modification techniques w/numerous keepers. Opinions are being offered here. It is a discussion, not a game. I don't "play" when it comes to gliders. There are some very intelligent folks on these boards, ones from whom I've leaned a lot. Just because we haven't been in the glider community for many years doesn't lessen the worthiness of our opinions. We each have our own experiences, experiences that are valuable and that do offer information. No one has to agree w/them, but a debate is not a contest. I, personally, have been successful in working w/gliders w/out removing anything from them. I believe that makes them feel safe. It gives them a sense of security. I don't chase gliders. I don't put them in closed pouches. I look at each glider and try to understand why it's acting the way it is. But, I also understand that there is behavior that is normal for a glider that may not be what an owner wants. I do not believe normal behavior should be changed. I have a glider here who crabs. He crabs when he's in his pouch and another glider steps on him. He also crabs as he's holding my finger eating his mealie. He is not afraid. He's just crabbing. This is what I mean by normal behavior and not assuming that crabbing is always bad. It's OK to disagree. That's what makes these forums so wonderful: people can come together and share their own ideas and experiences. They can offer their opinions, and as long as all is done respectfully we can learn from each other. By engaging in debates, we push our minds to think and we may just all learn something more that can help these adorable little creatures.

Very true. Often times you wont know every little abuse a glider suffered. But alot of times you do have a general idea of their stories. Whether it be neglect/starvation, physical abuse, emotional abuse, and that in itself should give you a good starting point with those kinds of cases. I know it does for me.



Yes, I did see both the before AND after pics. You did just answer a question I asked again. Sorry for the repeat. So the time the glider goes potentially without (if the cage does not have anything besides things to hide in) could be an extended amount of time, just depends on the gliders progress. I understand better now.



I saw that members requested the other thread get back on track? I also saw that Kate's first post (in the other thread) stated why she posted, because of a comment she found upsetting. THIS thread however is not infiltration of anything. Not as far as I can see. Im truly sorry you feel that way.



I was listening to everyone. And what I heard was, that I didn't get the FULL concept of the "program", that I was close minded and only viewing things in black and white. I think we've ALL said from the beginning the importance of going at the gliders pace.

who says it is sooner? There's just no way of telling if it was sooner or not. From what I've seen most of the cases- there wasn't much time put in to trying traditional ways.

In my opinion, gliders who make overnight progress from the ppp, they didn't need it in the first place. Traditional bonding techniques always took a few weeks to see progress so I think that glider was put through fear for a month for nothing.

Come see my Miley in person and tell me if you think using the ppp method is what would break her to trust me. Don't worry I have lots of tissues.

Miley is a rescue, she's way beyond the little bumps I've seen the others say they are having with their gliders.

The reason I decided to try what Bourbon does is bc I had tried the other way, the sit and wait and maybe they will come around thing. I left her alone, didn't approach her, offered only a whisper and a treat ocassionally, gave her all the space she needed. What happened? After 3 months, Donna was getting worse! She went from crabby and nippy to constant crabbing and going for the bone, and added in this little kung fu fend-you-off with my foot thing before striking like a cobra. YEOWCH! I am sure others know what I mean.

Unfortunately, Donna turned out to be a hard case and progress is still going at a snail pace. Though she will come to me now, she still gets wild eyed and panicky really easily.

I saw the thread on the portal page and actually got excited, thinking, "HEY! They got it going, a true debate on other methods. COOL!" But sadly... all I see is you guys knocking the effort others have made to help. Do any of you have any actual advice for someone, such as myslef, who may want to add in stuff from other approaches of gaining trust or bonding with their gliders? I truly am interested.

kinue








this is what I was saying earlier about listening to your glider, this isn't a mini crab this is a good sound, we call them churbles, they have many sounds of contentment, purrs chirps, churbles

you shouldn't worry if your gliders don't crab, it is a sure sign, they feel totally safe in their environment, they feel safe that you will protect them from harm, they feel safe and secure, that whatever bumped their cage isn't going to eat them.

it isn't taking away from who they are or what they do, the crab is to scare predators away, that is it's purpose in the wild, and it should be the purpose in your home. we have chosen to take these guys in as pets, therefore we need to be sure they feel very secure in their makeshift home.

we all have the ability to be scared, but we surely won't make your kids go someplace they are afraid in.. example many kids are afraid of the dark, so we as parents, want them to know there is nothing to fear so we buy them night lights, or give them moon light , why??? because although they have the ability to be afraid, we don't want it for them.

Rescue and rehab is not about speed...at least not for me. It's about doing my absolute best to make a glider feel safe and remove as much stress as possible from its life. That's just my philosophy. There was a home I was once looking at to place a glider in. I talked to them and felt pretty good about them the first few times we talked. But then we talked some more and red flags started to pop up. I didn't adopt to this home. About 3 months later, they were proven to be trolling for gliders. I have learned one important lesson in my life: trust my instincts. Had I been in a hurry to move that glider out into a forever home, I would have made a bad decision. By spending the time working w/a glider while it's in my home, I can find a better match for a forever home. I can give that forever home more information about that glider. By giving them more information, I lower the chances of them holding false expectations and having that glider end back up in the rescue system. Again, this is my opinion.

I've never seen anyone recommend sitting and waiting for a glider to come around as a bonding technique. Of course if you don't do anything with them, they are going to get worse.

From your description, is just what I was referring to, I don't think you tried enough- you said yourself, you occasionally did things and gave her all her space but didn't use any kind of bonding techniques but giving a treat once in awhile? That's not building trust- that just builds separation.

There are other ways, I personally think the ppp is not the way, it's too aggressive and gliders shouldn't be treated aggressively.

Thank you for answering again. I did see that you had already answered that and tried to convey it. But sorry you had to requote again.



I assure you it is crabbing. Maybe "mini-crab" was not the correct descriptive word. Others have been in the presence of/heard on the phone this and it is crabbing no doubt. This is just what she does.

Nancy, I have had worse case scenarios here, I have worked with each and everyone of them, I just homed a pair of gliders where one would crab constantly, she was afraid of everything and anything that moved, I swear she would crab in her sleep, she now is in a home where she has an awesome family and she doesn't crab, she doesn't run from them anymore, she is very very loving. but we had to get past her fears, before she was like this, I have had pit bull biters and rippers, Jack is a great example of a baby that would attack the cage when I entered the room, he is awesome now..goes with me everywhere. there is not a worst glider out there, because around the corner will be one that is worse. USmom had dexter, who she swore wanted to eat her.

I didn't sit and wait the entire 3 months. I gave her two weeks of waiting and adjusting. Then I did as others on this forum suggested and started playtime, letting her run loose and "play", though all she did was look for some place to hide. Then I started popping her in the bonding pouch and petting her through the pouch and talking to her. My poor ears! She would be fine for long periods of time (an hour or so at times) as long as you didn't so much as take a deep breath. When I did MOVE, I kept expecting blood to run down my neck she was so loud. And heaven forbid you should put your hand INSIDE the pouch... you would draw back a nub. So that went out the window real fast! Offering treats from a bare hand was also dangerous. 99% of the time she would bite my finger BEFORE she would strike at the treat. All of that went on for 3 months before Bourbon started helping me.

Now I have a semi-friendly glider who still scares pretty easily. But she runs to ME when she gets scared, so I am pretty sure she trusts me more than everything else, but I would still like her to trust me for ME. And I would really like for her to LIKE me, not just accept me.

Still... are there any REAL suggestions? All I keep getting is that what I did and continue to do it WRONG! What do you all see as the RIGHT way to go about it??? I am open to new ideas, or repitition of old ones... just something to DO.

This is about one little boy. He was 1 year old and would crab whenever I touched his pouch and he would lunge out at me if he saw my hand in the cage. The lunging would happen even when I was just reaching in to take out food dishes. I never put him in a bonding pouch or took him out in his sleeping pouch. I talked to him and would simply stand by his cage talking. Then I would put my hand under the pouch and touch them through the fleece. He would crab a bit, but it was not the intensive crabbing that concerns me. I would work my hand up to the top of the pouch, but was sure to never bring my hand down on top of them. I never tried to dominate him. When I brought my hand to the pouch top, I always had a mealie in it. I use mealies instead of lickies in the beginning because it gives the glider the reward of a treat but doesn't force them to stay right w/you. I really don't do licky treats that often. It took some time doing this, but he did learn that hands meant good stuff, not bad. The lunging and crabbing stopped. Now, I don't consider crabbing while in the pouch bad behavior. Keegan is a wonderful glider. He loves to be on me and is very sweet. I can reach in his pouch and he will allow it. It just took some time and patience. A lot of the bonding process revolves around figuring out the "why" of the behavior.

I don't have a "one stop" bonding method. I look at each glider as an individual. What worked w/Keegan, may not work w/another glider. I don't sit around and watch them and do nothing else. I slowly interact w/them in a way to show them that I am not going to hurt them. I use bribery a lot. It has worked for me many times. It has worked for others as well. The points I mentioned in my initial post in this thread are things I think about in each case.

Absolutely. We stayed at each "step" until Ranger was no longer nervous about that action. For example, when I was just talking to him while he was in the pouch: at first he seemed a little nervous when I would come talk to him. He would look up out of the pouch and stare at me (but didn't crab because he could SEE what was going on) and was tense-probably ready to run if he felt the need to. Eventually, though, he was not frightened by me talking to him. He would look up, go "oh it's her again", and go back to sleep. Soon after that he wouldn't even bother looking up. That's when we moved on to the next "step". I wasn't forcing Ranger into anything or anything like that-I was waiting until he was ready. Another good example of this is (that is used in both this technique and in others) is OFFERING my hand to him-if he doesn't want to get on it, that's perfectly fine-his choice. If he "escapes" the cage, NO chasing-he will come back when he is ready. We absolutely went by Ranger's pace the entire time.



I was trying "traditional ways" for six months with NO progress before asking Bourbon's help. Clearly I can't speak for anyone else that has worked with her but I feel that six months in total fear with zero progress made is enough indication that it's time to try something new.




I'm sorry to hear about Miley and I truly hope you will be able to get through to her and help her learn to trust. No one said that the PPP was for every glider. No one is trying to "break" a glider into trust. Just because you have an extreme rescue case with you right now (don't get me wrong, I hurt for each rescue that I hear of, but the relevance is what I'm after here) doesn't really mean that any other glider with lesser "problems" should remain scared, and if the PPP method works for them, then it's good that there's one less terrified glider out there, one less glider that is going to end up confined to a cage because the owner can't handle it.

I hope I didn't misinterpret your use of Miley's example, though it's possible, so I apologize in advance.

Kinue, the little things like you are describing is not a sign of fear, it is a good sound, it sounds different from a crab that is meant to run off predators. they have many sounds, looking into her eyes, you see that the sound she is making is not one of fear but of contentment. if you look into the eyes of a glider that is afraid and crabbing because of it, it is a different look. I don't want to mince words on sounds. you know what the difference between a good and bad sound is..

the owners I have worked with on the other thread, take the time to learn their gliders, learn their body language.. and I don't mean waiting till they get up into the ninja stance, but watching their face, their body, knowing what they are going to do before they do it. it is the most awesome feeling once you realize your glider speaks to you in a lot of ways.

by the way.. gliders don't like change, taking something out of the cage freaks them out just as much as adding something into it, or shifting things around. they are creatures of habit.

yes Deanna, Miley is an extreme but she is responding like a stressed out glider in fear. So in my eyes any glider that is stressed and in fear, why add to it. Bourbon says it right here-



So then why do the methods that you do if your only going to freak them out even more? That's what we've been saying- doing the methods like ppp is only bringing on more stress. How does that build trust? For gliders who the change does stress out, we don't recommend change why would you?

Oh Bourbon! You're about to catch it over that comment. LOL I want to point out that when I was asked to take all those hidey holes out of the cage, I was also instructed to leave them alone for awhile to let them adjust to their new environment. LOL

Robin, there is no right way. It all depends on your glider. W/some gliders that come here, I start touching them the very first day. W/others, I wait a day or 2. W/one little guy, I sat outside his cage every night and talked to him. First, I talked to him and he crabbed, then I talked to him and he was quiet, then I talked to him and he sat across the cage looking at me, then I talked to him and he came over and snatched a treat before running back to the far side of the cage, then I talked to him while he sat next to my hand eating the treat. It was a progression. I didn't move towards him, but I didn't run away. It's about a balance. It's about following your gut. If your gut tells you that you feel great about using your current method, then by all means go ahead and continue. But if it doesn't feel right, keep looking. I know it's frustrating to want to love them and not have them love you back. I believe they will, in their own way. It may not be the way you want, but it will come. I've listened to several different people advise others. Sometimes I've agreed and sometimes I haven't. I've advised someone only to be told "never say that again" when it was contradictory to the other person's advice. My point is, I have listened to many different people and situations. I've helped some and others I haven't. I'm not a miracle worker...no one is. All I do is try. I try my best and I do what I feel is right for each glider regardless of whether my opinon is the popular one or not.

That statement is SO true!
I have one glider who totally HATES change. No matter how small of a change it is, he will totally loose it.

With Sam, I've learned to slowly allow him to adjust to whatever it is that I've changed. If he reacts, I remove whatever is bothering him or replace what it was that I moved. But first I will hold him close to me, let him look at it, and smell it, then I remove the new item and do it again the next night. Usually after 2 or three intros to the new change he will start to feel safe.

I feel that with holding him close, gently talking to him, and petting him through the intro process while he sees that this new thing or the absence of the old thing isn't going to hurt him, assures him that he is safe.

Exactly

Nancy on the contrary, it is recommended to change their items regularly, to add enrichment, yes The first thing I tell everyone is that we are going to rock their world right off the bat, we move the cages into the living room, we change pouches we remove items..

with that now.. they are in a simulated fresh new owner situation, new environment, things are different in the cage, strange sounds and a view that hadn't seen before.

then.....
they are left to acclimate, the first 24 hours, there is no entry into the cage except to just open the door to tell them everything is going to be okay...

at that point, these gliders have no history, they have only a fresh start with an owner that is not only doing things differently, but also is talking to them different, they are working with them different.

I can be condemned for that, but as I said.. people change things around in their cage all the time, add new toys all the time, they stress their gliders on a regular basis..

the goal is to do it all at once. keeps the stress down, rather than taking and moving things around each day, or adding things.. this is not recommended with the exception of adding back things as they progress.

ever want to clean the clutter out of your life?? wonder if that would work with my house?

which is where the owners new ways that first 24 hours come in, it is done in a comforting way that makes the glider feel safe with it's new surrounding

Yeah, Bourbon keeps tellin me no matter what I do, there may come a point that Donna will never get any better. But she is 1,000 times more friendly now that she was before. And believe me, I am soooo grateful for that! She's not scared of ME anymore... and I can totally be happy if we stopped there. She accepts me now, but she may never fully bond with me. But the desire never goes away. LOL You totally get that, I can tell.

And they aren't scared of change anymore either! Yee haa! Cause I LOVE making them new things for their cage, or introducing new funstuff I find. They actually go right to it when they wake up and check it out. Whereas before, when Donna was so scared she would revert right back to crabby bitey bunz. LOL But I still only chage a few things at a time, and NEVER everything at once. Even I would freak out really badly if I woke up one morning and someone had taken all my stuff and replaced it with new. No matter how nice the new stuff may be, it still isn't MINE!

I am going to go off of this, yep I too don't think there is a "one stop" bonding or trust building method, I look at each glider that is scared or has trust issues and evaluate them.

My Tony would be dead if I took him out of a regular pouch and used an open pouch with him, no doubt in my mind about that. I've also had gliders that were very scared in the pouch and I wouldn't refer those gliders as pouch protective. To me "pouch protective" means they are protective of their pouch which isn't the case, they don't stand guard over their pouches.
I've had gliders that were terrified while in their pouches, they would crab, lunge, bite and fly out of there at the smallest of noise or movement. I decided to call Karin and ask her to help me out. She makes these wonderful little cabana's, they are like little houses. They're completely closed up at the top, the opening is in the center like a little open door.
These worked great for some of my gliders, they had a covering over their heads and that made them feel protected from above, made them feel like something couldn't swoop down and get them. The opening in the center allowed them to peek out whenever they were scared, or to look at me. Those worked great!!!!! I could reach in the cage while talking to them and let them know I was there, they'd look out to decide if they were going to run or not, at that point I'd give them a minute, and softly talk to them. I'd reach up from the BOTTOM with a treat in my hand, they'd lunge but they would get the treat. They would ease back in to the cabana and eat their treat while I stayed and talked to them.
I did this frequently throughout the day, making short, brief visits bearing goodies and a reassuring voice.
If they did make a break for it, I'd let them but I'd immediately back off, give them their space and they'd go back to the cabana. I'd let some time go by and try again, normally this time they'd stay.

I never removed anything from the cage while using this process, I used positive reinforcement, patience, and love and let them go at their pace for their reassurance.

over the last couple of days, I have spoken to many people regarding this, I know where my help starts and stops, the owners also are told what my place is in all this. Belladonna, I love her to death, she has had a hard road with donna, and she has made super great progress, she isn't where she would be ideally, and she is not going to give up, but she does now have a glider she can interact with, she reads her gliders body language, and she listen when she speaks to her. I told her that time , is what she has, the more time she spends with her, the tighter her bond will be, we are both with the understanding that donna, may never be a glider that will going into her bra or bonding pouch, she may never want to be held or cuddled, but she also will never be the scared glider that she was before. things still scare her, she has high anxiety, and quick movement make her undone, but at least Robin knows that and donna tells her, the good thing is that Robin listens..

I have never been overly fond of the appearance of the PP pouch, and was actually thinking of going with a more closed in model, but with a nice large front opening. I always though the term PP was about the glider being afraid of what they could not physically SEE, and an extreme fear of being attacked from above. That is why the Karin's pouch is so awesome to me, she can see me coming from in front of her, and I don't scare the pebbles out of her by coming from above her defenseless little head.

Okay I not going to mince words on sounds either. I was merely trying to explain to you the same crab she uses when she is disturbed from sleep is the same one Im trying unsuccessfully to describe. Only in short bursts. But same tone, same volume. She is my quirky one, who is a tad bit vocal.

I DO I DO I DO!!! I try to listen to everyone! I am totally in it for my gliders' sakes! My girls are what is most important, not MY comfort but THEIRS! I felt so powerless watching Donna make herself crazy! Now she seems almost happy! Of course I WANT her to love me... but as long as she isn't scared of her own shadow... I can be okay!

Robin, acceptance is the key. We are all wanting the same results: happy gliders. We just have different approaches.

this is no different than what we do, the ppp has opening top, back front, if they want to run they can, if they do, the owner backs off.. but still talks to them. positive reinforcement is used constantly, with lickys of various flavors as well as petting when the glider is ready, the petting is then alternated with just talking as well as the treats.

you didn't remove items we do, but it isn't anyone else to judge as to what someone has in their cage. I for one don't have a lot in my cages, and I don't have small cages, but my gliders are happy, energetic and they don't express fear in any way shape or form. no one is going to tell me, what I have to have in my cage as per their own interpretation as to enrichment toys.

I was around in the community when a tree branch and ropes were enrichments, Baybe grew up on them and she lived a very long full life, she was a very happy, very bonded glider who grew to not be afraid of anything, she trusted me ultimately, she trusted I would not allow any harm to come to her. and I never betrayed that trust or that bond.

I know I am very new here, but I have had a couple gliders that have been a challenge. My Zoey and Widget still crab a bit.



I feel it is crabbing to be crabby, like hey you bumped my cage crabbing. I experience the crab that is meant to run off predators when another scared little glider came into my life. Now that was crabbing, reaching into the cage was taking your life into your own hands. It took two weeks before she stopped bitting and when she bit she drew blood.

My method with her was to wrap her up in a big piece of fleece and just sit quietly and rub small circles on her body. Rubbing just firm enough to move her skin and message her muscles a bit. ( I learned this technique from a woman who does it with parrots) I made great progress, even the first day I did this method with her, after about 5 minutes of this she would start the happy chirping sound that my gliders make when they are content.

She is now the glider who pops up out of her pouch to see me in the evenings, ears up and wanting to know what I have for her. I have to admit I am very free with the mealies and yoggies. But she doesn't crab that stand away from me crab anymore. I think that Zoey and Widget will always give me that you bumped my cage crab, but it sounds nothing like the crab of terror my littlest one had when she first came here.

But we've learned so much more since then. Years ago, there was much that we didn't know in all of life. I work in dentistry. Years ago, dental staff didn't know that the repeated exposure to radiation incurred by holding radiographic film in the mouth was hazardous. We do now and we don't do it anymore. My point is that as we learn, we learn that what was once accepted as fact isn't any longer. We learn that we have to adapt...to change. We can't just do what has always been done simply because it was what has always been done. We have to incorporate our new knowledge. I work w/gliders in the ways I do because I have taken what was known and done and added to it the newly gained knowledge and experiences. I don't just keep doing the same thing. I've got no problem w/trying something new so long as you research what you're doing and why. If you find something that works...have at it. There will always be disagreements, discussions, and debates. Learning is an continual process.

You're right, Kimberley. There are different sounds and it is only by actually hearing them and through experience that you can distinguish their meanings. I'm glad you found a way to help you sweet baby. Congrats.

This is why it is called a debate.
Yes, you do remove items from your glider cages, I don't and I too have great success with my methods. You use a ppp with an open top, front and sides. I choose to use one with an enclosed top and sides, but an opening in the center. Like I said, I have had great success using Karin's (gliderdaydreams) cabanas.

I don't have small cages either, but I do have lots of enrichment toys, hammocks, tunnels, etc. and I don't have any issues with leaving them in there.

I'm also not telling you what you can or can't have in your cages either, Bourbon. Those are your gliders and you take care of them the way you see fit or successful, I'm just saying this is what I have and what I do and I've had great success as well as happy gliders that are no longer fearful.

That is awesome Kimberly!!!!!

Unfortunately, not all of the people trying the PP Pouch are initially in touch with you Bourbon. Several of the folks that are using it under your direction are jumping in and advising new glider owners who have a brand new crabbing joey that "they must have a pouch protective glider" and then that individual is giving them second hand instructions on your methods for using the PP Pouch.

This means there are new owners who are not giving the glider time to adjust to them before deciding drastic measures are needed.

If new glider owners have not tried moving at the glider's pace and are being advised by other relatively new owners then they may misinterpret your guidelines because they have not actually spoken to you directly. There are even GC members who do not yet have a glider jumping into these "I need help bonding" threads. One individual who has not yet had her own glider has made so many posts she has gained Senior Glider Member status - after joining the forum only a few months ago. That can be misleading to new members who would naturally expect a Senior Glider Member to have had lots of personal hands on experience with a number of gliders.

If you could put a description of a "Pouch Protective Glider" in writing and write out step by step directions for your approach to dealing with truly Pouch Protective Gliders then perhaps it could be made a sticky where folks could review your directions and contact you if they plan to begin using a PP pouch.

These new owners should not be using your plan with out your direction and assistance.

Yes I know that and that only applies to gliders who can handle change. Not all of them like their toys rotated out.


To me the ppp is extreme and I don't feel extreme stressful techniques should be used when bonding with gliders. We don't encourage physical harm to our gliders, why would one encourage emotional harm to a glider? I honestly believe forcing them to sleep in something else than something they feel in safe, is emotional abuse. I don't make my gliders sleep in pouches, I only offer them. My gliders have several things in their cages that are fit for sleeping in but they choose each night on where they want to sleep. When I offer them a new style of pouch- I never take away what they are use to. Once they are using the new item I gave them regularily, it's safe to say they like it and I take out the previous for cleaning and rotate them around.

well for starts, it CAN be used by a new ownerand on the website it will state to contact me BEFORE buying it, so at least they have direction as to it's use.

you may want to think the pouch is extreme, when in reallity it is not, it is removing the fear factor, and offering the glider a chance to really acclimate, now as for answer questions, I have done this, but now it is getting to the point, where somehow some where, you all have decided that you can dictate as to who can use what pouch for what reason. now you go tell alicia she is cruel to use the sissy for new owners, or karenI, and they will tell you where to go. these pouches CAN be used, not only on new owners, but by breeders as well, they can be used by all rescue homes, and they can be used by anyone who has a glider that crabs, when you enter the pouch.

you decision is that is is inhumane and cruel, extreme, .. who are you to judge me, the pouch or the methods.

you have your methods, I have mine, if mine work in 2 days, and yours takes you 2 weeks, to stop crabbing so what, I am not jumping in and telling everyone that your methods are cruel, because you choose to allow the gliders to crab, for as long as you do.

at some point, this thread should bend to what Kinue had stated and that is different bonding techniques. Robin has requested you help publicly for help to continue with hers, and your advice was get a new pouch, (I love karin so it has nothing to do with her) but you gave her no direction on what to do with the pouch. what else is involved, ? so she just sticks the pouch in and offer licky treats? duhhhh.. use the thread constructively. offer other methods, if not, it is nothing more than another bashing thread against the PPP.

offer other alternatives instead of saying there is other ways.. a blanket statement means nothing to new owners, as I stated before, advise to give the glider time to acclimate.. but what should they be doing during that time? advise to use a bonding pouch and again do what with it..

who are you to judge? me the pouch or the procedures that you are not familiar with..

Nancy I am sorry I have not kept up with you to talk about the changes in how to use it, but I figured you would know that offering treats, going slow, letting the glider acclimate.. you are not a newby, nor were you then.

my techniques stop their crabbing by their choice, not by mine, they stop their biting and lunging, by their choice not by mine. taking away the things that they are afraid of is not wrong, for them to stop crabbing in 2 days is not wrong. to help the owners learn to relax, take their time, be patient with their glider is not wrong.

If you have a bonding technique that you think works as good if not better, then get on here, start posting to the people who are asking for the help, give them direction, show them the proper way to do it. don't condemn something that is working, not only for special cases, but also new babies, old gliders, rescues, and medical cases.

This now has nothing to do with new ideas. because you all haven't posted any. I will continue to help the gliders that are afraid, you don't like it.. tough.. I will do what I do, because that is what I do, I don't need you all to approve or disapprove of my methods, because to be honest with you, you are nothing to me, if you stand in the way of gliders being helped, then I have no need for you simple as that.

Your right, I wasn't a newby and I did those exact techniques without the ppp and have success. I've asked before, so what is it your doing that is helping your progress and EVERY answer is oh you'll have to ask Bourbon. They make it sound like it's some ancient chinese secret on what techniques are being used along with the ppp. I understand each case is different and their not all handled the same- that's great but a simple, we are doing this or have done this would have worked fine. After reading through here and seeing you define details, it doesn't sound like the process is much different than traditional bonding techniques, your just changing out the sleeping quarters for the glider.

To me it's like discipline with children- one technique works for one and one works for the other. I personally feel children shouldn't have a hand laid on them and others feel if done the right way it works. I have the right to feel it's emotional abuse, but I wouldn't do anything about it unless it was physical abuse.

How is taking away their pouch, taking away their fear? I haven't seen a glider afraid of their pouch- that's why they seek shelter there, from the outside fears.

Some of us have already posted here, and other locations, some things that have worked for us. In my initial post, I outlined things that I think of when dealing w/bonding. There is no way to make a blanket post of a method we use. I use many different ways when working w/gliders. I have been, and continue to be, available to help anyone who wants to discuss their situation. What is being discussed is a method/technique. It has no importance as to "whose" it is. It is not up to any one person to approve or disapprove anything. It is up to each person to make a decision for themselves. My initial post is meant as food for thought. This thread is about bonding, not any one person. This thread is about differing views...sharing them respectfully.

In regards to my glider-he wasn't afraid of his pouch, he was afraid of the sounds he heard OUTSIDE of his pouch that he couldn't see. The PP pouch allowed him to associate those sounds with actions that he could SEE-actions that weren't harming him. Honestly, I would imagine that that hammock thing would work just as well, as it's the same principle. The PP pouch and the shallow pouch idea and the cabana all offer the glider a way to look outside to see what is going on. In a deep pouch my glider wasn't about to come check stuff out every time he heard something that startled him.

I want to add that I agree that gliders can crab for different reasons.

When I first brought Kirby home he would crab and lunge if you approached his pouch and it was clear he was very fearful. I would work with him very slowly, just talking to him and then finally feeding him treats through the cage bars. It took weeks. He was so fearful. He would just tense up and crab vehemently and look absolutely petrified.

Kirby still crabs sometimes, but it is not the same kind of crabbing. He now crabs when he is irritated. He loves his beauty sleep! If I wake him up by shifting his pouch, he will crab. How do I know it's not fear of me he's crabbing about? Because when I open the pouch and talk to him and pet him, he stops, begrudgingly. It's like he's grumpy and he just needs me to remind him that I'm here to take care of him, and then he will settle down.

I don't want to weigh in too much on this PP method as I have never used it. But I hope that people will recognize that crabbing is not *always* a sign of blatant fear, that there can be different causes of crabbing, and that since there are different causes and gliders have different personalities, different approaches may be needed to help gliders overcome their discomfort.

My gliders, for one, would freak out if I took all the stuff out of their cage except one pouch. In fact, I tried something similar to this, upon a board member's recommendation, several years ago when I was a newbie to get Kirby to sleep in his bonding pouch rather than a tunnel. I removed the hammocks and tunnels so he'd sleep in the pouch and we could "bond." What did he do? He slept in his wheel, shivering. I felt awful, and realized this was NOT going at Kirby's pace. This was me forcing "bonding" on Kirby, and it was setting us back rather than moving us forward, because he was so stressed out about his cage changing.

Let's be real here, there's a difference between adding enrichment to a glider's cage (new toy arrangement, some eucalyptus, etc) and removing just about everything from a glider's cage so they have no choice except to use a specific pouch (removing items such as wheels in particular will stress many gliders out).

It sounds like the PP method works really well for some gliders, so I'm glad there is another option out there and we are discussing it. I just hope that newbies realize it's not the ONLY way and it may not be the best way for THEIR glider.

I am sorry, but am I the only one that laughed so hard they cried on this remark....

I have nothing to add here, but Nancy, from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for a REAL laugh out loud with that remark!!!

(not trying to take away from what you guys are talking about....back to your regular scheduled posting....)

NOOO your not

Well I have 4 (four) cages of gliders, 9 total and every single glider has come to me in a different state.
Lucy I would have called a PP glider till she got around to me.

All my crew are worked with at their pace UNTIL I need to check them from tip of the nose to tip of the tail. Then they go at my pace.

All my crew are allowed to settle in and go slowly to play but I check my gliders daily to see if there are any wounds or sores etc. that need a vet and aT THAT POINT THEY HAVE TO UNDERSTAND i AM MOM, I WILL CHECK YOU FROM HEAD TO TOES.
All my gliders now understand fully what "it's OK mom is right here means".

My gliders do NOT play with the frilly crud toys I still put in the cages like bridges and vines. They only interact with the reset toys like the monkey toys and the toy boxes.

Do my gliders crab, NO not if I am in the area, b/c they know they are safe. But they didn't always, it took me teaching them that I am thier protector and they are safe when I am near.

Do my gliders still complain when I grab them to check them out. DUH!

This is a point I'm trying to make. There are no hard and fast rules w/gliders, but we have to understand why we're doing something to evaluate if it's working.

Bourbon, a suggestion was made in the Pouch Protector Thread that we take the discussion of other bonding methods and suggestions and its discussion to a NEW THREAD - which is what was done.

In all fairness, you have now joined this thread and are focusing this thread on the PP Pouch method. I feel you are being overly defensive and unwilling to let others express thoughts and other ideas and suggestions.

I find it hard to respect someone who takes the my or the highway attitude expressed by you as: "because to be honest with you, you are nothing to me"

If you were truly interested in allowing other ideas to be discussed you would be willing to LISTEN to others as well.

Peggy, I spit diet pepsi all over my computer, I was laughing so hard I couldn't swallow......you are not the only one. LOL

And yes, thank you Nancy and I now know to step away from the computer when reading your posts in the future.

I'd also like to point out a cross reference of the PP bonding method to human psychology, since I was reading the first thread about this pouch and it was compared with a child being afraid of someone knocking on the door, and then once you allow the child to see outside the house, they are no longer afraid since they know what's out there.

This technique is basically called "flooding" in psychology, it's a method of desensitization that is sometimes used for people with phobias. For example, let's say a lady is afraid of spiders. Some psychologists would make this person sit in a room full of spiders and then let spiders crawl on the person. They totally flip out at first, but then they start to calm down and see that spiders aren't so bad because the spiders aren't actually hurting them, and then they get over the phobia. This is a VERY STRESSFUL way for someone to get over a phobia. However, it also has a fairly high success rate.

Now, let's relate this to gliders, as gliders are different from humans.

Gliders are naturally animals that would dwell in a tree cavity during the day where they would face minimal sound and distractions from the outside world while they are sleeping. They respond to disturbances and possible predators by getting in their "ninja stance" and crabbing, because a whole colony of little marsupials doing this might be enough to scare a predator away! Similarly, if we do something a) to make our gliders afraid, or b) to disturb their sleep in their enclosed cavity (pouch), it is a natural instinct for them to crab to say "go away."

Essentially, by taking away all of their hiding places except for this one open pouch (which is not a natural cavity-like place a glider would normally sleep in), you are "flooding" your glider with sounds and stimuli. Yes, there is a good chance that this will desensitize your glider to these sounds. As mentioned above, flooding is quite effective. But just as it is for humans, one could argue that it is also very stressful. You are taking a cavity-nesting animal that is nocturnal and opening up its world during its normal sleeping hours to all sorts of stimuli and asking it to adapt.

Will it adapt? Sure. But it is likely to be stressful.

Again, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this PP method. As I said before, flooding is effective, and you could easily argue that it is a lesser evil to desensitize your glider to all this stimuli than for your glider to constantly be sensitive to it and stressed by it. Honestly, both this method and other methods we endorse (carrying our gliders in bonding pouches, sticking our hand in the pouch with treats, etc) are other methods of desensitization too to get a nocturnal animal to tolerate stimuli during the day.

Interestingly, I had one vet my gliders saw for a short while who suggested we should not carry gliders in pouches during the day at all because he felt it was stressful and unnatural for them as nocturnal animals So there is the other end of the argument spectrum for you.

Just thought I'd throw some new viewpoints into the debate.

Food for thought: I've had Kirby 3 years now, and he is still making progress. These guys can certainly get better over time slowly!

Very interesting read Jen, thank you for sharing.

Ok, I guess I WILL add something else here...

May I just say first of all, Jen you can KEEP YOUR SPIDERS!! I will probably have nightmares now dreaming of spiders crawling on me since I DO have a phobia of them....

Secondly, I just want everyone to know...THIS is why I love gliders...

THEY HAVE A *NINJA* STANCE!! A critter after my own heart!!

(hmmm....maybe that is why Nancy is thinking it could be a chinese secret!! )

Ok, all this psychology stuff is bothering me. Do we even know how developed a glider's brain is? Are they capabale of "human emotion"? I'm not trying to stir the pot but.... Honestly, does anyone know how a gliders brain is developed? Certain parts of the brain affect different things. So if the part of their brain that handles emotion is drastically smaller then we can put some of the negative labels behind us.

Confucius says:
When it is obvious that the goals cannot be reached, don't adjust the goals, adjust the action steps.

OT- kinda... B-did you get a chance to look at that pouch. I thought maybe Robin might qualify to test it.

Sure, I don't think anyone could argue a glider's brain is set up the same way. They likely don't process emotion the same way. I do believe in emotions in animals (fear, anxiety, definitely sense of humor when mine dole out the face hugs) but others would argue there are no emotions in animals at all. But even if you argue for animals having no emotions, they can still sense and process stimuli in their environment, and then they respond to the stimulus according to their instincts or "fixed action patterns" if you want to follow animal behavior 101 vocabulary.

If you want to use this model, you can say that a glider responds to stimulus (noise, smells, etc) in its environment that are unfamiliar by instinctually crabbing. This is an adaptation, selected for by natural selection, that has helped gliders increase their survival and reproduction in the wild by scaring away predators. They carry the same behavior pattern into captivity. Possibly dangerous noise/smell/sight comes in = crabbing as a response.

However, if you desensitize them to these stimuli, and they see that the possibly dangerous noise/smells/sights don't necessarily mean danger, you can somewhat "re-route" the pathways/patterns in their brain, if you will, by familiarizing them with these stimuli and thus changing the response (no crabbing). In other words, we have observed with our captive gliders that they can unlearn these behaviors over time, just as they can also learn fear and anxiety.

Any good behaviorist will tell you that behavior is a combo of genes and environment, so behaviors will vary in how much you can change them (and how fast) based on 1) an animal's genes, and 2) the environment they were raised in and live in now.

So you could also view it from an entirely non-emotional perspective.

OK I hate spiders too I was going to use the example of this lady on the Jerry Springer show I saw once while waiting in the ER room waiting to have my arm x-rayed. She was terrified of mustard and they chased her around with a hot dog. But I decided that was TOO ridiculous. Very un-scientific

Jen, Thanks...

I guess for some of us, this has felt like a personal attack. I can tell you that when I got my babies from PPP I was scared to death. I was snowed by what they told me so when I saw negative things about them here, I believed them even more. So for 6 months I was a) scared to death of my babies b) chasing them through the house when they got loose c)putting them in a bonding pouch only to hear them crab nonstop d) playing in a tent where they would hide in the corner and have nothing to do with me e) sit and talk to them... ok, my point is made. So I tried what I had been told and for 6 months, NOTHING WORKED.

Then I came to GC after acquiring another PPP glider that died in my bra. Again, I read to do all the things I had been trying. We started making a bit of progress in August. October 31st I met Bourbon. I was a sponge, I saw her work her "ancient chinese secret" right in front of me.

I can't work at Bourbon's pace. I go to school full time and can't always work with them all day every day. But using her methods, I can handle my first 2 and my rescues look forward to me coming in there room. But, even though I am in there off and on all day, they now sleep through my frequent visits. They don't crab and attack the rept anymore.

I need to start taking things less personal because I do understand where you all are coming from. It's kinda like when some parents swear by spanking their kids and others use time out. We may agree or disagree but we all have to remember that we are all here for the gliders. We need to keep an open mind.

Also, I don't want to lose any friends over this. Val, you know I love you to death and admire you a ton. B- I'm proud to call you my friend and know that I can make you choke on YOUR food.

My grandson has been diagnosed as autistic, and one thing we have learned is that while in "mode" he has no sensory, he strictly falls into the pattern of basic animal instinct of fight or flight. while in mode he feels no pain, he hears nothing he just responds out of sheer reaction, and that reaction at his tender little age, without a way to communicate, was the basic instincts.

What we have learned, is much like the gliders, he thrives very well on routine, gliders do not like change, the simplist change may or may not send a glider into "mode" where they react strictly on those instincts. as I stated before when a glider gets afraid and they run to hide, many times even under extreme circumstances they will not logically think of the safest thing to do,

the rest of the story of the wildfires, I was told by a friend that he heard gliders screaming through the forests, and other animals as well that refused to come out of their homes to save themselves. because in their fear they too lose all sensory, they feel nothing they can't think logically, they just react.

we had to learn, my grandsons way of communicating, we had to listen closer, watch his body language, find out what bothered him and what made him feel comfortable, we had to learn a whole new way of life. We found this to also be true with the gliders, as the owners that I am working with is learning, they too are learning to listen to their gliders, learn their eyes, their body language and the things that scare them, but also what makes them feel comfortable and safe.

I was reminded that horses do the same thing they will run to the furthest corner of their barns, and if left to make their own decision to save themselves they would parish.

one of the things we do is make the changes at night, when things are quiet and we give them a chance to get used to their new surroundings, as a general rule, the gliders spend the night getting used to things, by the time late morning comes around (normal glider hours) they are not as wound up as they are the night before, mostly due to the changes in the cage.

they spend their day, not bouncing around the cage all freaked out as one may think, but sleeping comfortably, only lifting their heads to identify the sounds. This is a key factor here, one that some are not understanding. they are looking to be sure the sound is not coming towards them.. key factor, the owners are not moving in towards the gliders at all during this time. The gliders are not shaking, they are not crabbing , they are not generally running at each sound. they are not [censored] out

much like if your asleep and your spouse walks across the room, you may open your eyes only to see what is moving.

is there some cases when this isn't the case sure, but there is not a quick answer for everyone. for the most part, the gliders do adapt well in captivity, it is proven all the time, gliders are in different rooms of the homes, they run and adapt to the owners schedule, in the wild they forage and feed in the wee hours of the morning, but many people have adapted their glider to their time, some feed at 5 or 6 pm, (human feeding time) and the gliders adapt to that, a glider who only has 3 legs, they adapt to their change in circumstances a blind glider also adapts to their circumstances. .. we have many special needs gliders that adapt well. but the key is adaption, although they don't like change, they adapt to it.

I hope it doesn't feel like a personal attack A lot of times debates turn out that way on GC with people getting offended, but I think it's OK to agree to disagree. I just like to take part in debates objectively.

I'm glad that people are posting different bonding methods. I don't know that they'd work for my gliders, but I'm glad they're being discussed. Clearly they are working really well for some gliders.

I know that the techniques I read about and was told about when I first joined...some worked great for my gliders, others did not work for my gliders. It's all about finding what makes your gliders comfortable around you.

There's no reason for any debate to be taken personally. It's a discussion. If people get to a point that different ideas/opinions cannot be expressed respectfully, then we're going to lose out on a lot of education and information. To shut others out simply because they disagree w/you is unfortunate.

Have you ever had a glider mourn the loss of another glider? Is that emotion?

Are your gliders excited to see you when they wake up? Is that emotion

Have you ever had a glider who is depressed? Is that emotion?

Stress is an emotion.

I've had gliders who have felt and shown all these actions and if they are considered emotions for people, then they are considered emotions for gliders.

We all come from different walks of life, with different live experiences, and each brings different things to the table.
This is how we learn, it makes us think and take into consideration other points of view. We may not always agree, but like Kate said, we should be respectful otherwise we lose, and more importantly, our gliders lose.

I like Jen's (7glider7) input, it comes from knowledge with her backgroud and is very educational, I always learn something new.

My background is different from hers, mine is social service, I work with families in crisis. I work closely with state and local goverment, the Sheriff's office, State Attorney's office and other social service organizations. My work requires assessment, patience, understanding individual needs, compassion and guidance.

I use my knowledge of these things to understand my gliders. I know that they all require the same dietary requirements for proper nutrition, but they are all individuals in their behavior. What works for some, may not for others and I assess their behavior and go with what I think is best for them. Some bonding or trust building methods may work the same for certain gliders, but there are cases that I've had that would do the exact opposite in some gliders.

It is by sharing stories, ideas, and methods that we can learn about the gliders that live with us.
Some can tell me that a method that I've used is hogwash, they would never do that and can disagree with me and that is OKAY. I do understand that we are different individuals therefore, we will have different opinions at times.

It's continued learning and adaptation that moves us forward.

Absolutely! I use my Nursing background and apply my knowledge to my gliders as well, not only on the physical aspect, but emotional and psychological as well. Because lets face it, we really DON'T know that much about our gliders yet, so some speculation and assumption has to be done to better understand other species that human.

I also think it is so much more effective to make a point you believe is valid without pointing a finger and saying what someone else is doing is wrong. Again, we really don't KNOW what is right and what is wrong, not on this subject. But we CAN listen to each other and decide for ourselves. ALL OF US! And I am not calling any one person or group of people out, we are all guilty of this at times. Healthy debate is just that... HEALTHY! But accusations and finger pointing only cause people to shut down and not listen.

Yep yep!

No, I have not had a glider mourn the loss of another glider.
Yes, my gliders do seem happy to see me but don't forget Pavlov's dog. (conditioning, I'm the food lady)
Nope, have never seen my gliders depressed.
And, I have a hard time classifying stress as an emotion.

I agree, Robin. There needs to be communication and we do need to listen to each other. Just because we disagree doesn't mean we think badly of each other. We just have different opinions. It's when listening stops, that the chance for sharing and learning stops...that door is slammed shut. We all have something to offer. Even if I don't agree w/something, doesn't mean I don't learn something from it. Perhaps we're all hearing what each other is saying and we may use that adapt some of each other's ways to a point where we're comfortable w/it.



By telling those w/differing opinons that we mean "nothing" to you, that is slamming a door shut. It's sad that anyone would feel that way. I've personally learned a lot from many people...old and new. I've learned from those I've agreed with as well as those I haven't. Just becasue I feel something is harmful and I wouldn't recommend it doesn't mean I consider someone "nothing". It just means I disagree.

I think what Bourbon is trying to say is that she doesn't need your guys approval. Come on, some pretty harsh terms have been used when describing her methods. From what I have gathered from the past, this isn't the first time a small group of people have attacked her methods either.

Maybe I am old fashioned but, regardless of if you like her methods or not, I'd think you all would have respect for Bourbon. She was dealing with gliders before some of the members here were born or out of diapers. She has done a lot to increase our knowledge, worked with vets and developed a diet. She continues to be a HUGE support, taking calls around the clock for gliders that have SM'd. She hasn't gotten one single dime for her countless hours of help to this community.

Maybe you all take her for granted. But one day she isn't going to be here anymore because a) the drama was too much b) she got burnt out.

She has never asked anyone here for a dime for her help. If this was a dog and she was a dog trainer, she could easily as for $100 per hour in person and $75 per hour on phone consults. I know I have never gotten a bill from her. None of us chip in and help with her cell phone bill. Yet, she continues to answer the phone around the clock, cigarette in one hand, Mt. Dew in the other.

Brittney, this has nothing to do w/a "person". It's a method that opinions are being expressed about. Too often, people confuse questioning/disagreeing w/a technique/idea/statement as "attacking" the person. It's not. It's debating and discussing.

Brittney is it?? Let me ask you this...

How long have YOU known Bourbon??

Obviously not long enough. You see, I have known B for many years now. Love her to pieces. WE Definitely do NOT agree with everything each of us thinks or feels. Bourbon and I have personally been bumping heads since my beginning with gliders. Started off with Diets...go figure!!

This is NOT a PERSONAL attack on B and you know what, even if it were, she is a big girl and confident enough in herself and how she feels and believes to be able to continue doing what she does the way she does it no matter what anyone else thinks.

She is just as guilty as saying some things that cut through the skin as the next person. Imagine that...that makes us all even and equal. She is also not the only one to work with vets and come up with diets or be there to help people around the clock. I can call a LOT of the people on this board and NONE of them including myself ever think of charging a dime.

Bourbon is in it for the SAME reason ALL of us are in it. It is NOT for a pat on the back or the attagirl applause, it is for the GLIDER.

Just because one person may look at some of the methods Bourbon chooses as being one thing (Tammy, I will use your Stockholm example here), doesnt mean Tammy is saying Bourbon is wicked and cruel and mistreats gliders, it just means that the way TAMMY sees it through HER eyes reminds her of this way. So SHE chooses NOT to use THAT method on HER gliders.

Just like Bourbon chooses to feed what she feeds and I choose to feed what I feed. Doesnt make either of us wrong. We just feel differently about what to feed our gliders.

So, knowing Bourbon the way I do know her, yea, that comment was out of character for her, but she was also taking things (such as the above statment) too personally, when it wasnt a personal thing anyway.

In the end, it doesnt matter what PEOPLE think...it matters if you are able to say you know what, I was able to help a glider today. It is the glider that will appreciate what we do for them. We should NEVER EXPECT things or feelings from people...that is how we are let down or hurt.

You have to do what you feel is right for YOU and as long as you are helping....it is OK for others to not agree with how you are doing it.

It's hard not to take things too personally when you're passionate about something.

My Hansel used to be a pit bull biter and after sitting down with Bourbon for about 2 hours at one of the glider functions, with many questions and answers, we decided that the ppp was the way to go. You wouldn't know he was the same glider now. I thank Bourbon for that. Everyone does things differently, I happen to LOVE the ppp.

Couldnt agree with this statement more Virginia, that is why it is nice when you DO start taking things personally, you have someone come in and remind you that its not. That will allow you to refocus and get back on the track you were on.

The PPP didnt work for me, that doesnt mean the method doesnt work, just didnt work for me. I choose to go the old fashioned route myself. Making sure your scent is around your gliders 24/7 is also a VERY important step in bonding.

I have also seen with my own eyes what Bourbon was able to do with Jack. I will never forget how it made Anita feel when the glider she loved so much but could never handle took a glider right over to her and she was able to hold him and pet him without being bit.

Like we are trying to say, this is not about a PERSON, it is about choices. We all are not going to choose the same thing and as long as NO HARM is being done, than nobody is *wrong* in how they choose to do things with THEIR animals.

Im sorry you feel that way. Truly am. But I do not see anyone "attacking" anyone! To be able to say, "I disagree with a certain bonding technique" no matter WHAT that technique is certainly is not attacking it. Its just stating a personal opinion. In a thread called "bonding method debate" anyone should be able to do that.


No one is taking away anything that Bourbon has done. This thread is not about any one PERSON. Its about bonding with gliders.

Poor Anita....she cried when she (just one month later) was able to put her hand in the pouch and Chevy LICKED her instead of drawing blood from her. Chevy is AWESOME now but...he was way different at first! Anita sure loves her babies.

Chevy came to me kinda by accident. He was born at Anita's from one of her pairs and was loved on from day one. Then one day, he became a "demon". A bunch of us were down in Tulsa and all went to Anita's. She was showing us all her purty babies. We first looked at them in one room and then went to the second room. In this second room there was a glider in a pouch just going off! Crabbing like I've never heard from a glider. He was trying to attack anything and everything and the air itself. He just crabbed and tried to attack through the pouch everything that he thought was trying to get him. Just about broke my heart to hear him in such distress.

After everyone left the room but me and Anita, I asked if I could take out his pouch and try to calm him. She warned me that he WOULD bite badly and I agreed to not try to take him out of his pouch. I just took the pouch and held him to my chest and cradled him against me. Anita told me she would try to do that and he would bite through the two layers of fleece, her shirt and draw blood from her chest. She said she had tried everything to calm him down but had no success. She didn't understand why he "hated" her so much.

I told Anita that Chevy didn't hate anyone, he was just terrified. And he was. I asked if I could bring him home to work with him. Since I am home all the time, I had the 24/7 time to give to him. I told her I would bring him home and work to calm him and then he would come back to live with her. (My hubby had told both me and Anita "no buying and no selling any gliders!" meaning I couldn't come home with any new gliders that day).

Well, I brought Chevy home and he went into a cage that most would say was way too small (it is just a temporary holding cage for when I clean cages). This cage was placed next to my bed, within arms reach. He had some toys, a corner shelf, and an open pouch. (not a ppp but similar). After a week, he had calmed down so much.

Day and night I worked with Chevy. At first, he WAS out for blood. He would attack as quickly as look at you. I don't let any animal bite me if I can avoid it. Never made any sense to me to "take the bites" so I do pull back when they strike (and Chevy was pure rattlesnake at first). I spent the first week feeding him before he woke up. I spent time with me talking to him and putting my hands up to the outside of the cage for him to sniff at but not get close enough to bite.

The second week I started to put my hands in the cage. Just resting it on the bottom but not making any moves towards him. He would get curious and come over to check me out and I wouldn't move unless he tried to bite. If he tried to bite, I would pull back but then go right back to where I started (so he didn't learn that striking would get me to go away). By the end of the second week, he was taking treats from me inside the cage with no biting. I moved him into a slightly larger cage (had to get one put together for him) that also had a wheel in it.

Week three involved even more one on one time with me "inside" his cage but with me more activly seeking him out to pet him. He discovered he LIKED that! He got moved into yet another larger cage (36" flight cage). We also learned he liked to "box". He would get up on his back legs and bat at my fingers with his front feet like a boxer. This is one of his favorite games. It is non agressive play with Chevy.

Week 4 we started with bringing him out of his cage in a pouch. I would talk to him and slowly work my hand down into his pouch. By the middle of week 4, I had him sleeping in my hand inside of the pouch. He got moved into a 55" cage at this point.

About the beginning of week 5, there was the get together at Linda's. I took Chevy with me and for the first time in a long time, Anita was able to put her hand in the pouch with Chevy and he curled up on her hand and he nipped (not bit) her once and then started licking her. She cried. She insisted this was not the glider she sent home with me. Anita said she had never had a joey born in her house act like Chevy and she had tried everything to help Chevy feel safe and secure.

I asked to keep him another month or so to continue working with him. About another 6 weeks went by and I called Anita and told her that I had done all I could and it was time he came home so he could bond with his owner. Anita told me that she had just gotten in more rescues and was full and she might have to sell Chevy because of lack of space. My husband said to tell her that if she was going to sell Chevy, she had to sell Chevy to him.

OUR (mine, Joe and Anita's) sweet sweet Chevy still lives here with us but is still very much one of Anita's babies. He has his love Addison who he constantly works to get her approval (she is such a DIVA!). He clicks and clicks and clicks. He hisses to get OUR attention when he sees us and can't wait to say hello to us. He does get a bit "excited" over mealies and a bit grabby with them but everything else he is just very gentle now.

I think in all this time, he has managed to bite me ONCE.

Chevy transitioned into a plastic toy barn with lots of fleece blankets. The barn has doors and windows he can see out of. From there he was introduced to one of Connie's tents. From there he was introduced back into a regular sleep pouch. Most days now, he sleeps in a regular pouch but he still loves his barn and tent and will often choose to sleep in those (I think when Addison kicks him to the "sofa" for the night).

Sorry for the long story but what I wanted to show was the "techniques" I used with Chevy were 1) geared towards what Chevy needed and 2) adapted from the ppp methods that Bourbon is sharing with others.

Dancing, that is an amazing story. I wish I had that kind of unlimited time to focus on working with gliders.

as out of character as this statement may seem, it is not really, not for me.

It is easy to take things personal when a discussion is started on another board, brought over to here with the knowledge it will start [censored], then to take it yet to another board, with the intent to create even more months after a single response was made, a comment wasn't made then, an excerpt taken from a post or 2 was removed, and the whole "debate" was based on that.

for starts the thread if read from beginning to end, if you were to read all of robins posts, especially the one that extrapolated one can easily see that little seriousness was taken regarding the empty cage, in fact I believe the words were, before bourbon/ after bourbon... but what wasn't said or seen was only to make others think that the cages are "stripped of everything" Robin has many things back in her cage, erin has everything back in her cage, in fact a couple of them on working on transiting,

comments were made.. not to debate but to bash the pouches and the technique. and it continues, let me extrapolate the words individually, because still nothing has been said on how these gliders are worse of than they started, even after hearing from them,

These people understand everything, everything was explained in full detail, everything, all the way down to that we knew we were stressing the gliders that first night. but that stress is minimal compared to the stress these gliders were under on a daily bases.

to continue to use words like harmful, cruel etc.. regarding this technique is bashing, because none of those words have been backed up, by anyone I have worked with, that proves, these gliders are worse of than when they started. the reduction of stress is not a bad thing, the removal of fear is not a bad thing, especially if the gliders lived like that.

I have addressed each and every issue that was laid on the board, no comments have been made regarding how the gliders have "SUFFERED" through it all "as a whole"

stress is something we all put our gliders through when it is needed, all because we want life to be better for them,

bring a glider into your home=stress
talking to them when they are new=stress
giving them a new toy=stress
cleaning their cage=stress
cleaning their pouch=stress
cleaning cage+moving items+adding new toys+cleaning their pouch= totally undone glider talk about stress
dealing with a special needs glider, giving meds, injury=super stress
allowing a glider crabbing when in their pouch when it is touched=stress
when a glider escapes from a cage, chasing the glider around =super super stress" (i see this done by people who should know better at gatherings when gliders hit the floor)
putting a collar on to save a gliders life=stress

what we do as a general rule is we sit back and try to justify everything that we do that stresses our glider, there is always a reason, and people say that is different, no it isn't stress is stress is stress, good or bad.

to chastise over and over and over again after total explanation has been answered, is ludicrous at some point then it does turn to bashing, not sharing info, because really no info has really been passed Robin asked for help, she hasn't received it from the people she asked for it from.


7glider7 is the only one that looked at this and gave any type of explanation that was even remotely close to the technique. kinda gave us all something to think about,

but to post the same thing over and over and over then have to defend over and over and over again is insane, it hasn't proven anything. it still in all these pages haven't "proven that these gliders on the thread you extrapolated from, is worse than what they started, in fact on the contrary..

in fact more pouches have been sold, more people have contacted me, because this technique makes sense to them, there is many people who think that this may work for them, and I can make it work for most , at least up to a certain point.

because of this thread now, I will be helping more people, people with gliders not as bad, as robins, or erins, or deannas, but young gliders, new owners, and others that feel they need help, which technique I use is strictly up to me, because you know what?

I do have the experience in many methods, I am no stranger, I know glider behavior, and yes believe it or not, I even know the difference between a scared new glider/owner and a vicious pit bull biter.

This has just reinstated that drive deep down inside of me, that Baybe instilled into me years ago.

I have a gift to look at life through the gliders eyes, I also have a gift to have others see it to. I will continue to share my gift, with any glider owner that needs or FEELS they need my help.

I am not here for anyones approval, pat on the back or recognition, I am here, have been here and always will be here for the "gliders" and I will do what I deem is in their best interest OVERALL, not for a moment, not for a day, but that is long lasting..

also keep in mind is the number of gliders we all are working with a mere 2 or 3 , I have 4 plus my secret stash of gliders, but they are not near the numbers that would take away from the one on one attention that these gliders need.

so in summary this technique is harmful to gliders why?

this is an extreme method why is it detrimental to their over all health?

this is like locking them into a closet and only taking them out when they are good how?

this is like the Stockholm's syndrome (explain in detail how it is even remotely similar with examples

we don't use positive reinforcement (explain)

we use negative reinforcement (explain in detail)

what enrichment toys are removed and explain how they are enrichment and not pouches or pouch like

show on the thread where the gliders are worse off than what they started

show on the thread where the gliders are more stressed than what they started.

show one person on the thread that wasn't getting one on one detailed help.

show where a gliders spirit has been "broken" and not enhanced

show where time and patience is not used by the owners

show where acclimation time is not given to adjust

show where the owners scent is not used as well as familiarity techniques.

Read Part 2