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Is James a Black Beauty?!

Posted By: HagridsHut

Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 07:29 PM

I stink at distinguishing Black Beauties from Classic Greys! confused Please take a peek at my little guy and give me your opinions on whether or not he would be considered a BB. thanks -Alicia




http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af73/abbolick/JamesPotter-1.jpg
http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af73/abbolick/JamesPotter-2.jpg
Posted By: Mastiff_Mama

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 07:32 PM

I totally stink too, but dont black beauties have a dark chest or belly? I honestly dont know. I was having trouble telling if 6 week old joeys were WF or standard. CRAZY
Posted By: HagridsHut

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 07:37 PM

I honestly don't know! cry He's just SO much darker than any of our other Greys, and his markings are darkening even further with age. I wonder if that's typical of a BB? dunno -Alicia
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 07:42 PM

Yes, from those photos, I'd say without a doubt that he is.

He has such bold and thick markings on his face, arms and hands. Very stunning boy you have there!
Posted By: HagridsHut

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 07:45 PM

I know!! Isn't he just gorgeous?! agree And, to top it all off, he's the sweetest little booger EVER!! Lucky me!! grin

Thanks for your opinion, Teresa! -Alicia
Posted By: Glide_Bye_Lily

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 08:00 PM

No. He is not a black beauty. His markings are not dark or distinct enough.

Sorry! He's a beautiful classic grey though!

People in general are not good at distinguishing. When you have a TRUE BB. There is not doubt in your mind.
Posted By: Meg_n_Von

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 08:01 PM

He looks like a BB to me. He has some of the same markings my BB girl has... smile
Posted By: HagridsHut

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 08:06 PM

Yikes! We have some disagreement about his classification. Hmmm...what to do! Does anyone else have an opinion?! -Alicia
Posted By: Glide_Bye_Lily

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 08:13 PM

Please PM me if you'd like to see pictures of True Black Beauties vs darker classic grey gliders.
Posted By: Mastiff_Mama

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 08:13 PM

Since I have always wondered about my 2 females, I will take pictures of them tonight and we can compare... maybe we will both learn something new about BB smile
Posted By: HagridsHut

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 08:15 PM

"Please PM me if you'd like to see pictures of True Black Beauties vs darker classic grey gliders."

Yes, please!! ...pm-ing you now!! -Alicia
Posted By: HagridsHut

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 08:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Mastiff_Mama
Since I have always wondered about my 2 females, I will take pictures of them tonight and we can compare... maybe we will both learn something new about BB smile


That would be GREAT!! thanks -Alicia
Posted By: xSwtxSugaX

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 08:22 PM

His markings are very dark, but dont most BBs have very thick very dark markings around the eyes and down the forehead and almost like a strap from the ear to the eye? It looks like he could be but his markings arnt as thick as most ive seen. Maybe he has a small percentage of BB in him. All that matters is hes a handsome fella!!!
Posted By: oakley

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 08:23 PM

I'm of the opinion that they are all shades of gray. There aren't two classes: BB or Gray. Instead, there are many shades, some darker, some lighter, and every shade in between. That being said, drawing the "line" can be difficult. Here are a few of my darker guys for reference:

Posted By: Mastiff_Mama

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 08:26 PM

That 3rd pic is the cutest!
Posted By: oakley

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 08:29 PM

On a side note, I also do not think that BB is a specific color like WF is. I think it is like light vs dark brown hair. That being said, I do think that two darker gliders will produce darker joeys and that two lighter ones will produce lighter joeys, but they are all still a type of gray wink
Posted By: oakley

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 08:31 PM

Yeah, she passed out smile
Posted By: wildlifeangel

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 08:40 PM

I have also had trouble with the distinguishing... and to make matters worse, I have a pair that facially LOOKS like BB... but the rest of the body is standard, so they aren't considered BB... and their joeys are the same as them:
Adam

Eve

Duke (their last joey)
Posted By: xSwtxSugaX

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 09:04 PM

Wow thats crazy! They def look like BBs. There adorable! All of them! I want to get my boyfriend a BB some day as a gift. we have a standard grey now, and a wfb on the way. But he really wants a boy. Maybe ill get him a BB boy some day! There gorgeous! grin
Posted By: HagridsHut

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 09:10 PM

Nadine- What is your opinion on James ... yay or nay? -Alicia
Posted By: HagridsHut

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 09:12 PM

Originally Posted By: oakley
On a side note, I also do not think that BB is a specific color like WF is. I think it is like light vs dark brown hair. That being said, I do think that two darker gliders will produce darker joeys and that two lighter ones will produce lighter joeys, but they are all still a type of gray wink


Meghan- I actually agree with you 100%! However, the lineage database does distinguish between Classic Grey and Black Beauty, so I'm trying to be as accurate as possible when listing classifications. -Alicia
Posted By: wildlifeangel

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 09:25 PM

hun... I'm not sure. I want to say that he isn't... like mine... but I always have trouble too!
Posted By: Meg_n_Von

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 09:31 PM

You can see loads of BB and Standard pics here - Color Variations - for comparison. smile
Posted By: HagridsHut

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 09:50 PM

I think I'm going to take the easy way out and just classify him as a Classic Grey! I've looked at those photos FOREVER and am even more confused now than when I started! Oi!! tant This is maddening!!

And, here I was hoping to be able to add a new little gremlin to my sig!! cry -Alicia
Posted By: snowbabygliders

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 09:55 PM

he really looks like a gorgeous darker classic grey to me. I really think if you have a BB there is no doubt in your mind. If in doubt, i say classic grey. he is gorgeous BTW!~ cloud9
Posted By: glidermom71

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/10/10 09:57 PM

I wasn't sure what my joeys were until I went to a gathering and was told that mine are BB's. I have been told that BB's have a Grey underbelly, and that the stripe from the back goes to the nose and around the nose. With that being said and looking at the pictures, I don't think that he is a BB. Looks more like a darker colored standard Grey to me.
Posted By: Viciousencounter

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/11/10 01:08 AM

Honestly I would say black beauty.
Posted By: gliderma

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/11/10 02:00 AM

I would say he is a beautiful grey glider. I am under the impression that the characteristics for a BB are black knuckles, dark chin strap and a silver belly fur as opposed to creamy belly fur. I do have a BB but don't have her pix on this computer to show you right now.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/11/10 03:54 AM

I can't see his belly. BB has very thick mascara, thick stripes, pretty much every black marking emphasized. The black knuckles (greys have a hint, BB it's like a sharpie marker was drug across their hand) and the silvery belly is a dead giveaway. If you have a BB next to a grey, the distinction is obvious. Pictures don't always help since lighting and background vary so widely it can be very difficult to judge.
Posted By: JeremyandLexie

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/11/10 04:19 AM

Originally Posted By: Glide_Bye_Lily
Please PM me if you'd like to see pictures of True Black Beauties vs darker classic grey gliders.
could you out some up here ?
Posted By: Glide_Bye_Lily

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/11/10 04:32 AM

Ok Ok. True Black beauty pics for EVERYONE! smile









Chin strap really doesn't have much to do with it, it's an indicator for sure. But not a rule. Neiko is the second picture. This is his chin strap:
Posted By: xoerikae

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/11/10 04:48 AM

you could always put him in tpg as a standard grey, but note that he is much darker than average.
Posted By: Meg_n_Von

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/11/10 05:54 AM

Here are some pictures of my BB female:




Posted By: Dancing

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/11/10 06:09 AM

What does his belly look like? Is the fur there white or does it have a grey under fur to it? If his belly has the grey underfur, I stand by my opinion of him being a black beauty.

I also agree that black beauties are just a dark variation of greys. I have a little black beauty girl here that was born to two 3rd generation wfbs! I don't believe that it is a special "gene" like wfb or leu. Just a dark variation of the grey gene.
Posted By: Glide_Bye_Lily

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/11/10 06:25 AM

sometimes gliders look darker when viewed next to a lighter one like a WF.

Beautiful glider Meg_N_Von! Definitely a BB!!!! smile
Posted By: Kozi

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/15/10 12:42 AM

So sticking in the same post.. does anyone have an opinion about this little girl?






Posted By: xSwtxSugaX

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/15/10 02:11 AM

It looks like she may be BB. She has that grey undertone everyone is talking about and very vivid and thick black lines. Dont take my word on that tho, Just my thoughts babbling out onto a post smile Shes flippin adorable tho!!!!
Posted By: Kozi

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/15/10 02:14 AM

Originally Posted By: xSwtxSugaX
It looks like she may be BB. She has that grey undertone everyone is talking about and very vivid and thick black lines. Dont take my word on that tho, Just my thoughts babbling out onto a post smile Shes flippin adorable tho!!!!

Totally understandable.. to each their own, everyone will have their own opinion.. Thanks for sharing yours. <3 x3
Posted By: Kimberlyann

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/15/10 02:37 AM

Ok, I think this is all very confusing, and I don't think I am the only one...LOL

Some pics I see it is obvious. Now I have a gorgeous dark glider. Her coat is so silky, and different texture than my grey boys. Her under belly is silver, the boys are cream. She is sooo dark. I am convince that she is a black beauty. But I am not an expert. Or a breeder. Now I have taken pics of her to show, but the flash makes the pics turn out soooooo much lighter so I can't show those. She is still a joey at 5 mos old, so it could change??

I guess (black) beauty is in the eye of the beholder!
Posted By: Glide_Bye_Lily

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/15/10 02:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Kimberlyann
I guess (black) beauty is in the eye of the beholder!


No.... it's really not. 'beauty' yes, of course it is. Black beauty, not so much.

The glider posted above has all the features of a black beauty. But does not have dark facial markings.

We breed for black beauty here. So I guess my standards are higher than others'. But no I do not think that glider is one. I have strict guidelines on what classifies a BB and it's WAY over diagnosed by MANY people here.

If the glider darkens more with age, or the facial markings become more prominent, I would change my assessment. But for now. Dark classic grey.

Quote:
Some pics I see it is obvious.


If you second guess yourself. You do not have a black beauty. When they are truly BB. It's very obvious.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/15/10 04:37 AM

Okay, yes, there is a lot of debate as to whether or not you can actually breed for BB. And whether or not there is a gene to be bred for. I do know one thing to be fact...

There are FOUR defining characteristics of a BB. If you do not have ALL FOUR, your glider is NOT considered to be a black beauty:

1 - Obviously dark hands or knuckles. Can be bands or the entire back of the hand, as long as the knuckles are black.

2 - Silver/grey underbelly. Not creamy or white. But obviously grey(ish) in color.

3 - Exceptionally dark-black markings. What makes most people think their babies are BB is the stripe that runs from the tip of the tail to the forehead, and the edge of petagium but MUST include the thick black eyeliner.

4 - Complete/nearly complete chin strap. This means that the black marking under the ears either meets, or very nearly meets under the chin.

If any one of these characteristics is missing, it is my understanding that your glider is not considered to be a TRUE BB.

I went through this with some of the most experienced breeders and some of the longest standing, most respected members of this community with my first glider, Bella. While her belly is silvery-grey, and her knuckles are black - her chin strap just doesn't come quite close enough to meeting in the middle, and her eyeliner isn't nearly dark enough.

Showing pictures on a forum doesn't help a lot with these gliders in most cases. We can't see the whole glider in complete natural light, so pictures can be VERY deceiving. You, the owner, have to take the information provided and decide for yourself, or take your glider to a long-standing glider owner that has experience in determining color. Since most of the databases don't even include this information, at least not for breeding purposes, you're pretty much only checking for your own satisfaction anyway. LOL
Posted By: Glide_Bye_Lily

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/15/10 04:45 AM

I agree with all of those except the chin strap.

In the pictures I showed. My VERY dark true BB does not have a chin strap that meets. However, just look at him.

I also champion WF black beauties. Which have all the characteristics of a BB but are obviously lacking a chin strap. For those reasons I leave chin strap out of the diagnosis. It's a helpful indicator. But not a rule.

And yes, you can breed for black beauty. Whether it is a gene or not is not the issue. You are more likely to get black beauty offspring, if one of the parents is a black beauty.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/15/10 05:03 AM

So far you are the only one I have ever heard that totally disregards the presence/abscence of the chin strap. There are almost certainly more nay-sayers out there, I just haven't met or talked to them, YET! LOL

I'm totally not up for a huge debate, but yeah, if you are are trying to breed for something, then there HAS to be a gene for it. There isn't any solid proof of a BB gene, YET! Not saying it doesn't exist, just that nobody has seen evidence of it. Genetics 101 says that if there is no gene to carry the characteristic, then it's not genetic and you can't breed for it. I'm not in any way claiming to be a geneticist, and I in no way doubt your claim of a high number of BB's in your home (except for the whole chin strap thing), so PLEASE don't get offended of defensive. Not what I'm goin for here at all.
Posted By: Glide_Bye_Lily

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/15/10 05:13 AM

no offensive or defensive anything here. smile

Just stating my case. smile

I guess I should not type with one hand and put more smileys in! lol

I used to be a big supporter of the chin strap theory. Until I got Neiko. He's the darkest glider I've ever seen in real life and as seen above, his chin strap doesn't come close to touching. It's thick and prominent, but not touching. Also, I've seen A LOT of gliders that have all the characteristics of BB while being a WF as well, and as we all know WF means they do not have a chin strap to begin with.

Even if something isn't a gene you can still breed for it by selectively choosing the darkest animals to pass along the color. It's how we ended up with dogs the size we have now, we took progressively smaller and smaller specimens or larger and larger specimens and bred them together for height. It wasn't that one day a chihuahua popped out of a wolf pack and there were suddenly thousands of them! lol It was selective breeding of size through a long time. The same idea can be taken with the natural dark coloring of some gliders.

I found another BB picture of a joey born here. This is Neiko's daughter and I don't have a picture but her chin strap was the same as his. This pic was taken in natural lighting too.



So she's not a BB because the chin strap didn't extend all the way under? Same question is posed for Neiko.
This pic with flash-


This without flash-



Another problem I have, is that we have a few gliders here that are very obviously classic grey with a chin strap that extends all the way under and almost touches as well. It seems to be more of a classic grey characteristic rather than exclusively BB.

This chin strap belongs to one of the twin girls in the picture with two BBs. I believe it belongs to the girl on the bottom... (forgive my bad memory)





I have to apologize if there was rudeness and/or defensiveness or anything like that implied in the way my posts were worded. I mean ZERO rudeness and/ or defensiveness. smile

...just a disclaimer
Posted By: xSwtxSugaX

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/15/10 07:10 AM

You guys are making me want a BB real bad. lol
Posted By: Meg_n_Von

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/16/10 02:12 AM

Originally Posted By: Glide_Bye_Lily

Beautiful glider Meg_N_Von! Definitely a BB!!!! smile


Thanks... wink
Posted By: snowbabygliders

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/16/10 04:06 AM

very gorgeous megan! <3
Posted By: carolinasuggies

Re: Is James a Black Beauty?! - 12/20/10 05:13 PM

I am fairly certain he is a really cute standard!
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