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Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders...

Posted By: Usha77

Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/07/08 06:24 PM

Started from discussion in "I waited to say anything......." in Glider Talk and Traveling"

Here's what I said:

Quote:
According to this website,
http://msc.bhsu.edu/biology/bsmith/mammlec7.html

there are different reproductive variations. These are all different:

Delayed fertilization
Delayed development
Delayed implantation
Embryonic diapause


I believe, from what I have read, that what occurs in Sugar Gliders is actually Delayed implantaion, not Embryonic Diapause. Obviously, I could be wrong. laugh


and

Quote:

Embryonic diapause is when an embryo has been fertilized and implanted and begins to develop, but then is halted part-way through development.

Whereas, Delayed Implantation is when an embryo has been fertilized, but is not implanted right away and is delayed.


Okay, discuss! (politely and rationally, please! wink )
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/07/08 06:50 PM

Well, as far as experts on joeys and development, I consider Suz to be the tops! She isn't a doctor or a vet, but she's had more experience with raising joeys than anyone I know of, and is considered "round these parts" to be the expert. I believe she works with an excellent, glider-knowledgeable vet, too.

Suz has mentioned both Delayed Implantation and Embryonic Diapause as being potentially possible in gliders.

As mentioned previously.... there is still so much unknown about gliders and we are learning more and more, as they are being kept as pets more and more. Vets see them more often than ever previously.... they are becoming more common "patients" at more vet offices. Our knowledge is growing exponentially.
Posted By: GliderLove

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/07/08 07:32 PM

Good researching there Brenda! It is an interesting topic!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/07/08 08:33 PM

Honestly, I think gliders are capable of doing a couple of those...

The only way to know for sure if a glider has delayed implantation vs. embrionic diapause vs. delayed fertilization would be to cut them open and see if that little egg is fertilized and/or developing. I know that I've read in several books that marsupials are capable of embrionic diapause though.

Gliders are also capable of delayed development. I once had a female with a jeoy IP for 96 days. It got about 1/2 way along and stopped growing for like a month. It was the weirdest thing. It was very obvious there was a baby IP, so I know she didn't pull the joey, it just stopped growing... I've actually had this happen a couple times now. My female Ariel just did it with her current baby. Her joey went IP before my glider Apple's and came OOP after wards... I don't know what triggers this behavior, but I find it very interesting.
Posted By: Usha77

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/07/08 08:39 PM

I do, too. The reason I was guessing Delayed Implantation was because that could be due to external factors and not a lactating joey, which can be the cause of embryonic diapause. I think the whole subject is very mysterious and fascinating.
Posted By: pappy1264

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/07/08 09:12 PM

Since it was my post (which btw, I had not checked in days, and from what I have been told, I was getting bashed in it). If someone has an issue with me, I would prefer you come to me. I don't even know what was said, but apparently since it has been removed for review, must be not good. I am not a breeder, and never intended to be. I take good care of my gliders and they are neutered. I cannot control nature. I didn't do anything wrong (I am saying this without having the chance to read the post. Last time I saw anything was Becki congratulating me.) I'm not trying to stir things up here, but I hope I will get a chance to see all the posts, so if there is an issue, I will get to answer it directly. I'm sorry if there is issue with my having Pennie. Although she was not planned (nor expected) I am not angry she is here. She is healthy and loved.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/07/08 09:21 PM

Mary - you were not being bashed as such. Just your claims that Pennie was fathered as reported were questioned. Was Wyatt the father - which was stated was certainly the fact. Although, how anyone can be certain without genetic testing is beyond me!

Thus, this topic. Is it possible for a female to hold the joey? or the egg? or the sperm?
Posted By: Kiiru

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/07/08 09:22 PM

Mary, someone was just trying to say that it's impossible for that to happen, you were lieing about it, and we were gullible. ^-^ And, that Wyatt was more than likely the father.

The whole thing was interesting though...it's weird thinking that these critters can delay implantation but, I believe they can. I know that some animals bodies will delay their pegnancy due to lack of food,water,overcrowding,etc. It's still weird how that happens though. roflmao They just know that now isn't the right time so they halt it. That's what makes us different from animals and it's so strange.
Posted By: Usha77

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/07/08 09:23 PM

Mary, there was some question about whether what happened with Pennie (how she was held in stasis for so long) is even possible. Your thread became a discussion on whether or not it was scientifically/medically possible for that to happen. I, for one, would like to keep that discussion going, which is why I created this thread. But then, I was PMing with a mod and your thread was being looked at and possibly edited, maybe even into separate posts, I am not sure at this point what is happening with it or if this thread is going to become moot... dunno
Posted By: Mel2mdl

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/07/08 09:26 PM

roflmao How many of you were posting at the same time! roflmao
Posted By: LSardou

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/07/08 09:29 PM

Originally Posted By: LSardou
This thread will remain open unless it goes off topic.
If there are any questions at to what was said in the previous thread please take it to PM.
Thank you.
Posted By: scraptilldawn

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/07/08 09:34 PM

This topic is so very interesting and it would be excellent to hear more cases of people experiencing it first hand. I have read about cases with Kangaroos and Wallaby's in captivity that held joey's in stasis from the loss of their mate. It's difficult to find information on Sugar Gliders as not too much is documented, but then, hey, good thing we're here! Share your story!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/07/08 10:06 PM

In 2005, Monster and Stewie had their first joeys (Clotho & Little). Almost immediatley, Monster was out of milk and the joeys had to be hand-fed (they stayed with the parents even though I was feeding). A couple weeks into their feedings, I noticed that Monster had a pea - but was it possible for her to be pregnant!?! And sure enough, when the twins were approx 8 weeks OOP, out came another joey (Punkin).

Miss Sheila had been kind enough to sit on the phone with me for hours at a time since this was my first time hand-feeding & she had so much experience. We had discussed this possiblity as a reason for why Monster's milk supply ran dry, but were still suprised to see it happen.

So, was delayed implantation the cause? Because she was already carrying joeys when she would have conceived...
Posted By: Kiiru

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/07/08 10:14 PM

I would say that it wasn't delayed implantation since female gliders can become pregnant while they have joeys ip and it's extremly rare for a glider to have more than 2 joeys at a time anyway. I could be wrong though.

Geeze...I was reading about delayed implantation in kangaroos not too long ago. That's weird! It sounds like it's normal for kangaroos to have delayed implantation too.
Posted By: pappy1264

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/07/08 10:29 PM

I don't know who the dad was, I believe it was Bandit, as does my vet. She has seen it with her own eyes (she neutered the male and there was no other gliders involved). I guess short of a dna test, I won't really know for sure. What I do know, Pennie will never be bred, she is not going anywhere and she is healthy and loved. I was not trying to open a can of worms for this group. I'm sorry if I did. I do know when Bandit was neutered and when Wyatt came oop, it was longer then it should have been and always considered he was held in stasis (Bandit was neutered May 28, Wyatt came oop Aug. 19.)
Posted By: Ellen

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/07/08 10:37 PM

Mary and all, be assured that as soon as the Admin have a chance to take out the "rude" and uncalled for post the thread will be put back. There is too much good info in there not to be put back

It is the age old problem of how some folks come off when they post. If you heard them in person you would be able to answer right away and there would be no problem. But as we has suggested, when you type and type what you are thinking at the same time it sometimes comes out harsh. I always encourage members to read their post before posting.

So, to all my hopes it will be back soon.
Posted By: Usha77

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/07/08 10:38 PM

Thank you, Ellen! laugh
Posted By: pappy1264

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/07/08 10:48 PM

Thanks Ellen. I didn't even know it was happening. I read from 'the last 24 hours', most times I have no clue where the post I am replying to is in (what forum). I had not seen it (my post) in a couple of days. One thing I do want to say (and thought I did in the first post), I don't know who the father is, and ultimately will never know for sure. But I trust my vet and she does believe it is Bandit's. And bottom line, she is here and will never be bred (or go anywhere). I am very thankful she is healthy and growing well.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/07/08 11:01 PM

Mods Please put back the thread it did have some good info in there
before I left I didnt feel there was anything that warranted the removal of the thread but after that maybe.
The links and references were valuable info
Posted By: Ellen

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/07/08 11:30 PM

I said we would. Give us time. There is other things going on too. So please be patient. Thank you.

Ellen
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/08/08 01:39 AM

I have had 7 males neutered and my vet warned me each and every time that they could still conceive up to 4 months post-neuter.

Could this "disclaimer" be the culprit, or is the time frame still too far apart? (I didn't read the post that triggered this one - sorry for being a little late in the game)

Posted By: BeckiT

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/08/08 01:52 AM

Originally Posted By: Monster
I have had 7 males neutered and my vet warned me each and every time that they could still conceive up to 4 months post-neuter.
wow, I've always been told 30 days, but 4 months? shock
Posted By: scraptilldawn

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/08/08 03:46 AM

We had an unfortunate inbreeding with our cats when our male was neutered as a kitten and a few weeks after was allowed back with his mother. They were both indoor cats, had never been outside and were housed separately until weeks after the neuter. She turned up pregnant and the only possibility was that he had left over sperm weeks after the neuter.
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/08/08 03:58 AM

Wow I am glad I read this because I assumed it was only a few days after neutering that a male was still able to impregnate the female.
Months is scary and even if it is only one month that would still put our females in danger of breeding with a father, brother, or son if it's a family colony.
We usually put the male back with his mates within a few days if not that night.

So to be safe how long would a male need to be removed from his family if their was a possibility of inbreeding.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/08/08 04:49 AM

Mods - is there a way to split this into two posts. One with the original topic in mind and another regarding neutering/potency timeframe and inbreeding. It just seems like the main topic has been lost...
Posted By: pappy1264

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/08/08 02:25 PM

Ok, since I now was able to read (most of) the original post, I hope I will be allowed to say something here. When I posted about Pennie, I told my experience. Did I say Wyatt was not the father? Nope, I said what is believed. I will never know for sure. I DO KNOW I did not deliberately do something to have this happen. Wyatt was 4 months, 1 week and 3 days old when neutered. He had just the slightest beginning (thinning) on the top of his head, had not shown any interest in mom or any sexual behavior that my older gliders did before neuter. Now, I don't know for sure, heck my vet can't say 100%, but she has seen it happen, when there are no other gliders aside from the male/female pair. I don't know all there is to know in this world, no one does. To call me a liar is wrong, because I DID NOT SAY BEYOND A DOUBT that Bandit is the dad. I put it out there and let you come to you own conclusions. Is Bandit the dad? Is Wyatt the dad? I don't know, truly. But what I DO KNOW is Pennie is healthy, she is loved, she will NEVER be bred and she will never leave this family. I wanted to share something that was special to me, with all that was happening with Timmy. I love my gliders and do the very best I can for them. I have NEVER bred on purpose, all my gliders have been neutered because I KNEW I could never rehome a joey and well, I can only take care of so many. I do not regret Pennie, but truth be told, I wasn't looking for another mouth to feed and was not trying to have this happen. I had Cole neutered at the very same age (he was in with three females) and no joeys. Should Wyatt have been neutered earlier? Maybe, but I went with what I read and felt was the right time.

Rachel, I think you need to pick and chose your words a little better. You may know alot about gliders but before you accuse someone of something, reread my post. I was not trying to scam anyone or lie to anyone. I shared my experience. There are alot of things that happen in this world with no explanation and we are all learning every day. So until you can say you 'KNOW' for sure (which I hate to say in this world, won't happen) I would suggest you pick your words better.

I have had my say and I am not trying to rehash things. I just wanted to state me peace.

I love Pennie and I hope I can share her with this group. She deserves it just like anyone else.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/08/08 02:44 PM

I read the original post about Pennie and after reading some peoples responses, where they questioning any for of delayed implantation, dispause, etc. Please explain to me how, a female glider in my possession, who had not been housed with another male for over 3 months, ended up with joeys IP??? Her last contact with a male glider was 6 MONTHS prior to the date her joeys actually emerged from her pouch.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/08/08 02:50 PM

Originally Posted By: Leyna
Please explain to me how, a female glider in my possession, who had not been housed with another male for over 3 months, ended up with joeys IP??? Her last contact with a male glider was 6 MONTHS prior to the date her joeys actually emerged from her pouch.


It didn't happen! clown You were dreaming! crazy

roflmao roflmao
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/08/08 02:54 PM

You're on to me Brit wink I like to make up stories to confuse the glider community... While I'm on a honesty kick... Naw, I better not tell...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/08/08 03:03 PM

Yup, yup, yup. Bow to me, the Glider Detective! dance Shame on you, Leyna! grin
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/08/08 03:06 PM

Originally Posted By: Leyna
I read the original post about Pennie and after reading some peoples responses, where they questioning any for of delayed implantation, dispause, etc. Please explain to me how, a female glider in my possession, who had not been housed with another male for over 3 months, ended up with joeys IP??? Her last contact with a male glider was 6 MONTHS prior to the date her joeys actually emerged from her pouch.


Turkey baster. roflmao
Posted By: pappy1264

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/08/08 03:25 PM

lol....sorry, had to laugh on the turkey baster.
Posted By: jacknsally

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/08/08 04:24 PM

Originally Posted By: Trigger
So to be safe how long would a male need to be removed from his family if their was a possibility of inbreeding.



I actually think this situation is one of those rare moments that we know may/can happen. To actually go through with a long (30days or more) separation from mate/family after a neuter because of a slim chance of still being fertile, I think has a higher %chance of causing stress than pregnating after a neuter.

With Mary's gliders and their sitution- we can only speculate that the joey was produced and held in stasis after the neuter- but there can be a chance she was already pregnant by the older male before the neuter and held Pennie even longer.
Posted By: pappy1264

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/08/08 04:33 PM

Thank you Nancy. You said it better than me. I don't know and truthfully, that was part of the reason I hesitated posting (well, mostly it was because of all that was happening with Timmy). Whatever happened or who the daddy is, it is what it is. Not something I intended either way (with Bandit or Wyatt) but she is here and we all love her.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/09/08 06:45 AM

My question is can a glider choose not to have joeys IP. The glider pair that I have are a bonded pair and had joeys before they where rehomed to me. I was given the gliders due to family problems and was told that the female had joeys IP. I have had them for almost 4 months now and they dont have any joeys yet...and I really hope they dont. But I have seen them mateing every month. The female is not bonded at all to me so I am not able to touch her but I am totally bonded to the male. But when she is on the side of the cage there is nothing in her pouch. Do you think she might be pulling the joeys?? Or do you think that she is maybe choosing not to conceive??

Lori
Posted By: sugarglidersuz

Re: Question of Delayed Implantation in gliders... - 07/09/08 11:22 AM

Lori,
It could be either - she may be holding the joeys in stasis until she feels more comfortable with her new home OR she may just be pulling the joeys when they are born. There's no real way to know for sure dunno
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