GliderCENTRAL

Genetic Question about WFBs...

Posted By: Dancing

Genetic Question about WFBs... - 02/14/08 04:55 PM

So many are discussing the inbreeding/outbreeding of leus.

I've noticed that many wfbs are from the Cereal line.

How many original wfb lines are there and how far back are they? (the originals such as Cereal?)

There are names I recognize such as Cereal, Pele and PeleII.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Genetic Question about WFBs... - 02/14/08 05:13 PM

There are 3 origonal WF lines. Cereal, Pele, and Ol' Yeller...

Honestly, I'm not a huge fan of high generation WF's because in order to get a 5th gen WFB, you need to have each line in their pedigree at least 5 times or in the case of some WF's I've seen, have cereal in their pedigree 8 times...
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Genetic Question about WFBs... - 02/14/08 06:36 PM

Ok, so, everyone is clammering for high gen wfbs and that's alright? yet getting crucified for breeding leus that are also distantly related.

So, there are three original lines...Cereal, Pele and Ol'Yeller. HOW do we KNOW these three are not also related?

How related is too related?

I have Gianna and Marcell. Gianna is from Scarlett and Stitch (mylittlegrimlin) and Marcell is from Dylan and Destiny (skyblugliders).

They DO share some ancestors. I was aware of this when I purchased them and after talking to several, I made the decision that the shared ancestors WERE far enough apart to let Gianna and Marcell breed.

They have had a total of 11 joeys and Marcell is now neutered. Each of their joeys are wfb and sweet as can be. Great temperments and wonderful gliders. Rafiki, their first son, has had several joeys and is, by what Peggy has told me, a wonderful father and his joeys are awesome. Caiden, one of G and M's joeys is a recent first time father and is very protective of his "family" and doing a wonderful job with his joey, Nickolas. Nickolas is very sweet.

I am keeping several of their joeys and will be breeding them. Jewel is going with Duffy (mosiac) and Larriat is going with Emma (a 4th gen).

Unless I see for myself any issues with these pairings or their offspring, as far as temperment or health, I will continue to do what I'm doing. Those that think they will find PURE (totally unrelated) wfb joeys to buy are only fooling themselves.

So...I would like opinions but keep this to a civil discussion please.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Genetic Question about WFBs... - 02/14/08 08:30 PM

I'm sorry Teresa, but this is totally not a discussion I'm willing to get into on GC. There are way to many differences of opinion on this subject...

I will say this. For the most part, I am getting out of WF's. I have 2 WF leu hets that I'm going to try to use for my leu breeding, but I'm definitely not going to be trying for WF's any more. I don't like how the WF lines look any more. Actually, I don't like how most of the leu lines look either, but that's irrelevant to this post.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Genetic Question about WFBs... - 02/14/08 09:04 PM

Why do the wf lines look different? New to wf's and just wondering. Too much inbreeding?
Posted By: Xglider

Re: Genetic Question about WFBs... - 02/14/08 09:09 PM

Originally Posted By: AmyLynn
Why do the wf lines look different?


what do you mean ... look Different??

Teresa you know this is above my head ... lol...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Genetic Question about WFBs... - 02/14/08 09:15 PM

Amy, WF's for the most part look the same. Some are lighter, so are darker, but they all have the same markings... Some people seem to think the high the generation of WF, the lighter the glider will be, but that just isn't the case. Some WF's are just lighter than others and if you pair 2 light WF's you'll end up with a light WF baby... But, if you pair a light WF with a light normal, you can get light WF babies too...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Genetic Question about WFBs... - 02/14/08 09:55 PM

I think it would be almost impossible to find two gliders of color that don't share ancestors somewhere along the line. I personally find it alright to breed distantly related animals.

It is actually done ALL the time in lots of different animal species. Look at a few pedigrees of famous horses.

There's a difference between inbreeding and line breeding.

I would still try to get them as distantly related as possible of course.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Genetic Question about WFBs... - 02/14/08 10:09 PM

Now see. When I bought Gianna, she was my first wfb and I didn't care what generation she was... I had the money and always had wanted a little wf of my own. When I went to Judie's, Gianna and her twin sister are the wf joeys she had at the time. She just happened to be a 2nd gen.

Back when Javier first got Dylan, I thought he was THE most gorgous glider I'd ever seen. I tried to convince Javier to let me have Dylan but he was already attached. Not that I could blame him and I didn't really try toooo hard.

When Dylan and Destiny had their first joeys, I fell IN LOVE with their gorgous faces. I bought Marcell and Brandy bought his twin. I'm very lucky now as I also have King Tut, Marcell's twin. Again, I didn't CARE about their generation, I bought them because they are simply GORGOUS.

King is in with cinnimon wives, so his joeys are 1st gen wfb (providing they are even wf). So far, since King has been with me, they have had one joey, Dusty. HE is just as gorgous as his father and grandfather.

The little girl I bought to go with Larriat...well, I wanted a wf and she happened to be the right AGE. She is a 4th gen but again, that didn't matter to me. It was about her being the right age to pair up with Larriat (who still is not weened).

I'm not saying you should go out and look for related gliders, even distantly related. I believe you should find unrelated when possible BUT...again...my question...

HOW closely related is too closely related?

And since the all seem to come from one of the three original lines, should they be bred at all? Same question about the Leus?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Genetic Question about WFBs... - 02/14/08 10:41 PM

Quote:
How closely related is too closely related?


Now, that is a question I am willing to answer smile I don't like to see anything closer than 2nd cousins paired together and actually, I would prefer gliders to be more distantly related than that...

Also, I don't have a problem with line breeding, per say. It can be very useful, if done correctly. But, when you are breeding 2nd cousins that both come from all 3 lines, you are just closing the gene pool, not line breeding.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Genetic Question about WFBs... - 02/14/08 10:43 PM

Yeah, the line is very fine. But there's a proper way to do it and you should only attempt it if you really know what you're doing smile Of course.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Genetic Question about WFBs... - 02/15/08 05:36 PM

Ok question? How did all the different colors happen? The lues,wf. Did one breeder have one by chance and started breeding for it. Because with research I did about what they know about wild gliders, In the wild they do have white tips. But are normally gray or a brown in color.
Posted By: tngliderlover

Re: Genetic Question about WFBs... - 02/15/08 07:18 PM

Here is an interesting link regarding breeding:
http://www.petsugargliders.com/sgkin.php
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Genetic Question about WFBs... - 02/15/08 08:10 PM

My understanding of it was due to random mutations, somehow a colored glider popped up. For example, someone's grey gliders suddenly have a boy blue glider.

So the owner took his blue glider and found him a little mate grey glider. They have two babies - one is grey, and one happens to be blue! Even better - the blue one is female!

So to make even *more* blue gliders, the owner mated the father with his daughter (yes, inbreeding!). Indeed, the mating produces TWO blue joeys....

and so on, and so forth.

Colors come no way other than inbreeding unfortunately. BUT, in this day and age, there are many very smart breeders out there who are working hard to improve the lineage and doing a thing called "outbreeding". Which preserves the colors but expands the gene pool.
Posted By: Judie

Re: Genetic Question about WFBs... - 02/15/08 11:41 PM

The WF Blonde... went unnoticed by the mega breeders for years.

It was only when a few smaller breeders took a fancy to the all white face that the interest was there to breed for them.

The first time I ever heard of a WF Blonde was from a Breeder named Southern Exotics in Raleigh. Now this goes way back now to about eight or nine years ago and I was on a waiting list for one. A year later.... Mike Sandridge purchased Cereal and a couple of his daughters who were Wf Blondes. Princess and Pearl. Mike refused to tell where he purchased the adult gliders with the Beautiful White Faces. Southern Exotics... well they just disappeared from the face of the earth.

As to Pele I and Pele II........
Pele I was a rescue and was paired to a Normal named Iris. Breeder was Glier Tree, Mary and Charlie.

Pele II... he was the Last male produced by Pele I who died while Pele II was a baby. Pele II was given as a call name by me as I purchased him as a wee baby from Mary.

Cage Wokes is not far from Dallis so Steve and Mike were simi buddies when it came to gliders. Steve then began collecting WF Blondes from his wild stock. I think at one time Steve said he found perhaps three or four WF Blonde babies out of a couple thousand babies a year. Anyway... that's how the Ole Yeller line began.

I read so much hype about how bad inbreeding and line breeding is so terrible. All I can say... if it was not for it having been done... most of these people would not have a glider of color. I still remember when and who said they would never ever purchase anything but a Gray colored glider Seems most of these people now have at least one if not more of a colored varriation.

A Good Breeder... breeds to improve the species. So, just remember.. when breeding out.. it is highly likely to introduce a few bad genes than if one was carefully linebreeding a line which did not have genetic problems to start with. And when this happens it will ruin a Good Breeding program to where someone or several breeders will have to start over.

Since there are a lot of newbies here to Breeding Color.. why not start a List as to All of the Genetic Problems there are... instead of just skirting around what seem to be issues with line breeding Sugar Gliders so we can all benefit from it. thumb
Posted By: Bubbles8i8

Re: Genetic Question about WFBs... - 02/16/08 12:33 AM

Originally Posted By: Judie

Since there are a lot of newbies here to Breeding Color.. why not start a List as to All of the Genetic Problems there are... instead of just skirting around what seem to be issues with line breeding Sugar Gliders so we can all benefit from it. thumb


This is an excellent idea!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Genetic Question about WFBs... - 02/16/08 12:40 AM

Quote:
I read so much hype about how bad inbreeding and line breeding is so terrible. All I can say... if it was not for it having been done... most of these people would not have a glider of color.


Judie, why would anybody have to inbreed in order to produce WF's? There would actually be more WF's out there if breeders would have just started pairing them with normals when they noticed that they only needed 1 WF parent to produce the color...

Also, in regards to leucistics, considering there are 3 lines, why are breeders pairing 1st cousins, siblings, father/daughters???
Posted By: Bubbles8i8

Re: Genetic Question about WFBs... - 02/16/08 01:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Leyna
Quote:
I read so much hype about how bad inbreeding and line breeding is so terrible. All I can say... if it was not for it having been done... most of these people would not have a glider of color.


Judie, why would anybody have to inbreed in order to produce WF's? There would actually be more WF's out there if breeders would have just started pairing them with normals when they noticed that they only needed 1 WF parent to produce the color...

Also, in regards to leucistics, considering there are 3 lines, why are breeders pairing 1st cousins, siblings, father/daughters???



To answer the leucistic question, there were 3 lines to begin with, but those lines had to be crossed with each other and now you its difficult to locate a glider that has ONLY one of the lines. They had to cross eventually, and once the originals stop breeding, there are no more pure lines. The original breeders didn't think far enough in advance, at least in my opinion. Not saying what they did was wrong, just possibly not well thought out.
Posted By: Judie

Re: Genetic Question about WFBs... - 02/16/08 05:58 AM

The breeding of WF Blondes and for any color varriation was not understood... at least not to what we know now.

As to the White Faces.... Sandridge did a lot of close breedings in the first couple of years in developing his foundation line. Waiting lists for these Blondes were long.

None of us knew if the gene was simple recessive or dominant much less co-dominant. Shoot... I could not even pronounce the word Hetrozygous or Homozygous or even Leucistic. roflmao Unfortunately we did not know there were No Hets for WF Blonde either. It was all a guessing game at first.

In fact, when I did the first breeding of my little Leucistic (Sesamie) to a WF Blonde (Sandman) I was in hopes of producing a color much like the Creamino but without the red burgandy eyes. Boy, was I ever off base there. thumb

Some of the information on how to figure out how some of the genes were working came from snake breeders who were breeding Dominant, Co-Dominant and Simple Recessive colors which fall in line with the Pundent Square. I personally have not learned yet how to figure out some of the more complicated codes yet but as a New Varriation pops out... by only breeding can we all learn.

Now, why all the inbreeding of the WF Blonde? Like any new Varriation that is being discovered... one has to Inbreed to develope a foundation line and then linebreed and from there breed out. Most of us breeders resorted to linebreeding with only a few breeders breeding a few pairings that were consided inbreeding. Some of these close inbreedings did produce a noticable lightness in the body coat. It was also noted that by pairing two White Faces together the percentages of producing WF Blondes did increase chances of producing WFB offspring more often. And within a few years... it was noted that there was no such thing as a Het for WFB. Otherwords... like we say when breeding the Mosaic... what you see is what you get. smile

Now the Leucistic.... Three lines and three lines only.

1) Mickey and Minnie, 100% Leu Hets were bred by a Candian breeder trying to produce White. These two gliders are Brother and Sister. Their father was a Ethan a BEW. Then there was an Uncle named Gabriel (name changed later to Stewart) and Fizsban. All brothers and I beleive produced by the same father but different mothers (Forgive me if I am wrong).

2) Sesamie and Sammy, brother and sister twin Leus from unknown het to het breeding. I purchased the tiny female and Sheila then purchases the little boy.

3) Mac and Cheese often refered to as the Dai Green gliders. Dai only produces 100% leu Hets and mosaics with not a lot of white on them all from Mac and Cheese(BEW). She does not breed any of the offspring in the six years that I knew of her breeding nor does she purchase anything to produce white. Dai wanted to produce sound foundation gliders so did not do any inbreeding. Because her breeding program started befor mine did... she did not know at the time why her Platinum Mosaic and Wild Caught BEW could not produce a BEW offspring. In the last few years of her breeding... the mystery was solved. Her Platinum glider did not carry the Leu gene. So, all of her gliders were either mosaics with not much white or all 100% Leu Hets. Here is where I need help.... I think Dai did produce one BEW but exactly how I am not sure. Fizban and one of her offspring? Have to ask Sheila about this one. Anyway... with only breeding 100% Hets and not breeding to anything else... Dai's Program was really at a stand still.

Ok... now Canadian breeder sells BEW named Gab. This male only produced two hets that I know of in his short lifetime.

After Sheila and I purchase the Twin BEW babies, about a year or so later... the Canadian breeder offers Sheila the 100% Leu Hets with two offspring, one BEW female(Sheila names the girl Saline)and I purchase the Possible 66% Leu Het brother of whom I name Shy Baby.

Shy Baby is then permanently paired to Sesamie. Their first BEW offspring is named Tai Pan and he is close to 2 years being oop Tai Pan is then paired to Gabby who is a 100% Leu Het from the Mac and Cheese (Wild Caught BEW)lineage. A sister to Tai Pan, Tiki is produced and paired to Whisper a 100% Leu Het out of Ethan and Eileen. Then Cry Baby who is produced by Tiki and Whisper is paired to a Normal named Honey. I purchase back from Sheila a BEW named Schezwan... who is a Grandaughter to Sesamie and Sandman. After four years of breeding... my foundation line as to my breeding of the BEW was now in place.

So... as you can see, 2 out of 3 of the seperate lines of 100% Leu Hets did not produce much in Leucistics. Lots of 100% Hets but few Black Eyed Whites. It is only when all three lines where merged together did I begin to produce Black Eyed Whites who were not inbred.

I never did any Inbreeding.... no brother/sister or parent/sibling pairings. My breeding program was to produce sound Leucistics and 100% Leu Hets that were not inbred with the younger breeder picking up where I have left off with linebreeding and then even more distant linebreeding. As a small breeder with only 15 pair of gliders I am very limited on space along with my limited physical capabilities of being responsible for caring for more gliders than what I already have.

Food for thought...

A really good way to help one understand the beginning of developing a new Color Line is to read up on the Creamino Varriation. This newest color began with two young gliders who could not be sold due to loss of their tails and were paired together. Keep in mind the breeder below has LOTS of Space for holding Hets and lesser Hets that will be bred bred into thier line.

Unknowlingly, these two unwanted gliders were both 100% Albino T+ Hets which produced a pair of sisters close to five years ago who were T+ Albinos that we know as Creaminos. Because they were Albinos the breeder was advised by a genetist not to pair their foundation gliders any closer than first cousins on each side of the pedigree. Otherwords... do not do any brother/sister breedings or father/daughter nor mother/son which is considered Severe inbreeding due to possible defects from the Albinos damaged chromozone. Thus Normals and WF Blondes have been introduced.

This breeder is now breeding fourth and fifth generation Creaminos and Hets.






Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Genetic Question about WFBs... - 02/16/08 01:10 PM

Thank you Judie, that was a very informative post.
© 2021 GliderCENTRAL