GliderCENTRAL

Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects?

Posted By: kitsune

Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects? - 10/05/09 11:30 PM

I have often heard this said, but have never seen it happen. Breeding a leucistic sugar glider to another leucistic sugar glider has been a 'no-no' for a long time and I understand the reasoning behind it in the past; the bloodlines were still too close to breed two gliders that were obviously out of leucistic lines. However, this 'no-no' didn't hold to leucistic hets. The reason I am so confused is this:

Say two pairs of gliders have two joeys each, one pair two boys, and the other pair two girls. For argument's sake we will say that each of these four parents had a leucistic parent and a grey parent with no leu lineage, and all four are distant enough from each other that they are virtually unrelated. They each have a leucistic joey and a 66% leucistic het joey.

Now, along the current line of thinking, it would be acceptable to pair the leucistic male with the 66% het female, or the leucistic female with the 66% het male, or the two 66% het joeys together, but it would NOT be acceptable to put the two leucistic joeys together. They carry the same lineage as their siblings, but would be considered a bad breeding practice to pair them based on the color of their fur. Some used to say it is because of how closely the lines are bred--but they continued to breed 100% hets together (even those with leucistic siblings, which means the fact that they were hets and not leucistic is simply the luck of the draw). Others say that pairing two leucistic gliders together would produce genetic defects, health problems, and deformities. I haven't seen that this is the case, though, with the few leu to leu pairings I have heard of.

What I am asking for is confirmation whether this is true, that breeding two leucistics will cause sickly and genetically faulty joeys, or if it is a rumor that needs to be dispelled. I understand some of you are still of the mind that even the two hypothetical 66% het joeys should not be paired because we are still breeding the leu lines out, but there are many, many breeders that do not feel that way, that have 100% leu het pairs, or even leu to 100% het pairs, which were both born from leu to 100% het pairings, and the only thing that would make this unacceptable or frowned upon is if the lineages *were* too close to breed.

Please, can someone help me understand?? confused

Edit: I am sorry if this shouldn't have been posted right away, I read the first post and it said they would have to be approved! Apologies if I did this wrong!!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/06/09 12:02 AM

I have heard somewhere (I cannot remember where) that Breeding Leu to Leu can create a very High chance of having Deaf babies like 50% or something. Though this can also be fiction! I am not sure.
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/06/09 12:08 AM

I have heard that as well, Gucci, but have never seen or heard of a single deaf leucistic. Since leu to leu would only produce leu offspring, it is safe to assume any deaf offspring would be leucistic. The only two people I know of that have bred leu to leu were Sheila of To And Fro and Dianne of Heartland Gliders, and none of the offspring resulting from these two pairings has produced an unhealthy baby. So...only two pairs, only one pair bred more than once, and none of the joeys were unhealthy?? Where did the deaf rumor even come from, I wonder?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/06/09 01:27 AM

The deaf rumor probably started because in multiple species of animals its been shown that white animals have a much higher chance of being deaf. White coloration is typically a recessive trait, and when recessive alleles combine, you carry a higher chance of getting deleterious linked alleles like deafness.

That said, I have never heard of a deaf leu glider; there are many with more experience in the glider world than me though.

My understanding was that people were determining which matches were appropriate based on inbreeding coefficents and not based on fur color alone. Breeding two closely related non-leus wouldn't be any more acceptable than breeding two closely related leus. I'm not sure who would condone such a practice based on coat color alone and not taking into account the degree of relatedness dunno Is this going on? dunno If so, people need to reexamine how they decide on which gliders to pair together.

I have heard more substantiated claims that leu gliders may have weaker immune systems than non-leu gliders. I remember reading a thread where somebody's colonies got sick, and it seemed to be the leu gliders who were more likely to be ill than the grays (forgive me, I am forgetting who this was and the details). That said, this of course is not hard proof of anything.

I haven't heard of any massive deformities or problems. I think the reason people are hesitant (and SHOULD BE) to breed leu x leu is because there is a much greater CHANCE of deformities or problems. Sometimes problems don't show up until later, and then, you could already have some lines that are now "messed up." Sterility in the mosaics is a great example.

Sorry I can't be of more help. tounge
Posted By: cyndiekb

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/06/09 01:49 AM

I hate to think someone will do this just to prove this out. Most likely the first line of joeys would be ok. It would be more likely the further generations is when you would see the health problems. I hope no one is going to make the gliders pay for human ignorance.

Also I am not sure Sheila bred Leu to lue I think she would need to confirm that. It is not something I was aware of anyway. I know there is some that has though. I just don't know who it was.
Posted By: heartlandglider

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/06/09 01:53 AM

Before I approach this topic, I know there will always be those that will see nothing wrong and those that will think this is still a no no. I'm sure this post won't change eithers minds.
Since I have been asked regarding my pairing I will respond. I would have to go check exactly how many joeys Frosty and Snow had, but I feel safe in saying around 10. I never experienced any problems with any of these joeys. They were all born healthy and to my knowledge remain so. Those of you that may have one of these joeys are welcome to add their comments.
I would have no problem in pairing two leus together again as long as the pedigrees were compatible. This I have also found depends on whom is doing the breedings.
As long as there is no documented proof of problems with some of the pairings people are doing, including leu to leu, I don't see a problem with it .
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/06/09 02:12 AM

Jen, I think you may have misunderstood, I wasn't saying that people were pairing gliders based on coat color instead of genetic compatibility; I was asking why a genetically sound match would be acceptable or not based on coat color. In other words, a pairing that would otherwise be healthy and have good lineage together would be considered unwise because of the coat colors of the gliders to be paired (IE two leu gliders).

I have never heard of leus having immunity problems, I heard it was albinos. There was a lady in Canada with an albino breeding program that lost all of her albinos to an odd sickness but none of her other gliders. As for sterility in mosaics, this is actually due to continued inbreeding, not a problem that surfaced from bad breeding further back in the lines, which is why breeders now are working to breed these lines out, which has improved the sterility issues greatly.

Cyndie, this is one of the reasons I started this thread. I would like to see fact put to rumor. If there is some fact out there in all of this rumor floating around, it would be wonderful to have it somewhere that more inexperienced breeders could access it.

Sheila bred Sammie to Saleen. You can see pictures of the two of them on Saleen's page, here. The url of the picture indicates that the two are Saleen and Sammie. It was some time ago, and she only allowed the pair to breed once before she split them and put them with other mates. I do remember that they had a joey, I could be wrong but I think it was a male. The joey was healthy and went on to breed and produce healthy joeys.
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/06/09 02:17 AM

I just did a search in the PSG database, the single male joey they had was Horatio, which can be found in many lineages today.
Posted By: SugareeErin

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/06/09 02:18 AM

I believe there was also at one time concern of a fatal white gene.

Dianee since you have done such a pairing, how old are the leus produced from your leu-leu pairing now? Are all still living? How many do you have in your possesion still? (if you don't mind, I think this would be helpful information to consider in this thread)

I don't think we will truly know the answer to this for many years, until these leu-leu joeys have passed on and had necropsies. Not all deformities can be seen by the naked eye, so even if they look and seem healthy that may not be the case.

I'm not saying one way or another, just my thoughts on the subject.
Posted By: Trigger

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/06/09 02:38 AM

Isn't Horatio the glider that died last year?
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/06/09 02:46 AM

Yes, he was Gliders4U's when he died. Maybe she can shed some light on why he died? Although, I would venture to say that there has been speculation that all leucistics originated from the same lines since they can all be traced back to the same mill in Indonesia. Sammie and Saleen could have been closely related, there is just no way to know. Additionally, if Dianne says that she has bred 10 healthy joeys from her leu to leu pairing, it seems to me that a single premature death from a one time breeding would not prove one way or the other.

Erin, I can understand what you are saying about lethal white, but from what I have read about this condition it is related to Waardenburg's Syndrome and is characterized by a partial whitening in a certain pattern, rather than a pure white animal. There are some breeds of dog that cannot be bred together if they are white, the same way two dapple (or mearle) chihuahuas or dachshunds bred together leads to many health problems. Ferrets with a non-symmetrical patterning of white commonly have WS. This seems to match the mosaic gene more closely than the leu gene, though. I would also hesitate to compare genetic issues in dog breeding to sugar glider breeding; it's no closer than comparing breeding mice, which have no problems whatsoever breeding white to white.
Posted By: Judie

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/06/09 06:04 PM

Personly I think it is too soon to bred Leu to Leu.

Sammy and Ssleen bred together by ToandFro were Leus. Saleen herself a few years later became sickly and after an extended period of over a year died. Her life was short as was her breeding ability. I own Sesamie (Sammy's sister) and ShyBaby (Saleen's brother) and they are very Healthy as are all the offspring for five or six generations. Sesamie is 7 years old... with ShyBaby (Neutered a year ago) being over five years. This one pair of foundation breeders to this day are very Healthy and remain together as my Pets.

As to Diane's pair... it is too soon to justify such a pairing of Leu to Leu. The Leus she has are vrry Healthy but it will be the Offspring's offspring that will need to be looked at as to wither or not they remain Sound in overall Health.

The only way to breed out the Leucistic is by pairing a Leu to a Normal which produces 100% Leu Hets with 50% diversity from the main population of grays. These offspring then are paired to the main population of grays again and 50% Possible Hets then will dilute the Leu Lines even further to breed back to a Leu.

Breeding Leu to Leu does nothing to create Diversity in a breeding program. All it does is produce All Wbite offspring.

Posted By: kitsune

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/06/09 08:09 PM

But Judie, why is it too soon to breed leu to leu if the lineages are far enough out to breed two hets that have leucistic siblings? What I am asking is what the difference is between a het and a leu with the same exact lineage. There may be some leucistics that have had genetic health problems, but there have been hets as well. I would venture to say there are many more healthy leus than sickly ones. One short-lived leu does not indicate that all leus are fragile, or that they would pass this fragility down to their joeys simply because of their coat color. If you are looking for diversity in the bloodlines, het to het or het to leu should not be bred together anymore than leu to leu. Sesame is leu, Shybaby is a leu het out of a brother and sister pairing of 100% leu hets. He could have easily been born a leu, how would that change the healthiness of the joeys? It would have been the same lineage if he were leu. The fact that Saleen was short-lived provides more reason for Horatio to be as well than the fact that both of his parents were leus; Saleen was not bred from a leu to leu pairing. It sounds to me like Saleen had a genetic problem that was passed down to her son, which can happen with any color variant. This is obviously not the case with Dianne's leu to leu offspring.

In the end it very simply comes down to the genes carried by each glider. If there are defective genes in a leu, those same defective genes would be passed to a grey sibling. There is the same chance that it would be passed, and matched up with the same gene in another leu het, than if the two paired were leus with the same lineage.
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/06/09 11:06 PM

SORRY IF MY POST IS BABBLING, I GET SO TIED UP IN WHAT I'M READING AND I LOVE TALKING ABOUT GENETICS AND LEARNING MORE, I DON'T KNOW WHEN TO SHUT UP ;-)


Kitsune I totally agree with you 100%

Many Many breeders have Leu to het pairs which could very well be the same if not very similar to Leu to Leu pairs.

Lets say:
You have one pair, they produce twins, a leu and a het baby
You have another pair, they produce twins, a Leu and a het baby.

The babies born from each pair are 6+ generations apart.

It's "frowned" upon to breed the LEU to the LEU but it's NOT "frowned" upon to breed the HET to the HET or the HET to the LEU.

That makes no sense since they have the same genetics as far as anyone knows right now.

We are ASSUMING that some genetic defect is linked to the gene that brings out the WHITE color which is purely speculation!
This speculation is based on accounts with different animals (dogs, cats, etc) and based on poorly done research where leu gliders (or colored gliders) have been the ones to get sick over the grays at someones home.
This is bad research!

There is no constants, there are too many variables to call anything with Leu's FACT.

Many breeders also have Leu to Gray pairings producing hets which will be a carrier of whichever genetic defect that the Leu carries.

Genetic defects get passed similar to genes like color get passed.

I'm just going to make an example here
If the Leu is dominant for, say, the gene for a certain liver problem. You breed that Leu to a standard gray.

You will now have a 100% Leu het who is also 100% het for the liver problem. The het won't SHOW the liver problem and will never get sick from it, but still carries that.

Then we breed this 100% leu het who is 100% het for the liver problem to another glider who is say, 25% het for this liver problem (we never knew that). The babies may wind up having this liver problem proving the 25% het for the liver problem to be a 100% het, therefore a carrier of the liver problem.
Maybe that standard gray did not EVER come from leu lines.


IMO A lot of things we go on now with genetics is pure speculation.

We have no rock solid evidence (that i know of) that ANY gene for ANY disorder is linked to the Leu color.


In a human, if someone is a carrier for Mediterranean anemia and they have a baby with someone else who is a carrier for Mediterranean anemia, the baby can have the disease and have a tough life and in some cases die before the age of 16.

The people who are most likely to carry this disease are Asians, Africans, and those from the Mediterranean. That does NOT mean that ALL PEOPLE who are in those categories carry that disease or even have that disease.

This is a PROVEN fact through genetic testing/genetic analysis.


This is similar to what we are SPECULATING happens with Leu gliders but we don't know for sure.

Where are the genetic tests, the genetic analysis, controlled, properly preformed experiments that say that there is anything that is linked to the white coloration in sugar gliders?

As far as I know, there is NONE.


Now In my opinion we are going about breeding in the wrong way with our leu/hets/etc

What we need to do, *****and this is based on quickly reading a site on rats and breeding*****
is line breed and inbreed until we know FACTS about the lines we have and what they carry.

In creating healthy lines we must (again from the site) breed 2 gliders, then breed back to the parent. We can not sell these offspring and they must be kept in a controlled environment and observed. We need to express poor genetics and diseases and figure out what they are linked to so that we can actually breed out the diseases by careful breeding and I dont think ANYONE (to my knowledge) is doing this.

The site seems to make sense to me. In order to have lines and lines of HEALTHY animals we must find out what genes (for diseases or disorders) we're isolating and then get rid of them. We're not doing that. The only genetics we're isolating and breeding out for is Color and sterility which are the least of our worries.


Here is a GREAT quote from the site (not word for word as to not be accused of copyright infringement)


All too often when we out cross to get rid of a problem and it just hides the recessives enabling the negative trait to show up later in the line (and in other lines as the animals are outcrossed more).


IMO from reading this article Outcrossing is not really what we should be doing because now we might be spreading poor genetics that we can't see, to other lines.

(say Leucistics are carriers of bladder problems that we don't know about. We outcross them with our standard gray lines, with our mosaic lines, with our white face lines. Now 30 years down the road we find out that, OOPSE leus were the carriers of the bladder problems and now all of our other lines have that problem. That will take many years to fix)


*deep breath*

I told you I babble :-)
Posted By: Judie

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 01:14 AM

The Foundation Lines were line bred for several generations.

Then the newer generation of breeders came along and critized above breeders for doing so claiming that there would be genetic problems if there was not more diversity in the Leu Lineages.

Thus... the out breeding of the Leucistic Glider.

Now, I do not approve of Inbreeding but do not have a problem with Line Breeding.

As to Line Breeding.... I do know that the chances or ruining a line can be ruined by outcrossing as the possibility rises of introducing a genetic problem to an already non tainted line. Others do not see it this way... and are hung up on possible genetic issues with the Linebreeding.

With us smaller breeders... none of us are setup to hold several generations of all of the offspring we produce even if it were only one color line such as the Leucistic and in a controlled inviroment.

Without a proper study being done on the Leucistics only (Leu x Leu) in a controlled enviroment for seven to ten years... I would not even consider pairing a Leu to Leu.

My goal as a breeder has always been to produce Healthy Gliders without compromising their health no matter what their color.
Posted By: Suggiegramma

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 01:43 AM

I think part of the problem is that people who don't know what they're doing are starting to breed. It takes dedication and a lot of knowledge to make a correct pairing.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 01:43 AM

I usually don't get involved in these debates but I can throw my medical background into the mix.


From above:

Genetic defects get passed similar to genes like color get passed.

I'm just going to make an example here
If the Leu is dominant for, say, the gene for a certain liver problem. You breed that Leu to a standard gray.

You will now have a 100% Leu het who is also 100% het for the liver problem. The het won't SHOW the liver problem and will never get sick from it, but still carries that.


This is why you "breed-out" the lines......the thought is that since the leu gene is recessive, there MIGHT be other genetic deficiencies that are carried on that recessive gene. In your example above, the liver problem. However, because you have breed it to a gray, the gray's DNA will "fill in the hole" of the defect causing the liver problem, thereby not allowing the liver disease to manifest. The DNA of the gray (without the recessive component) will patch the defect on the recessive component. If you breed recessive to recessive, there is a significantly decreased possibility that those genetic "holes" are filled by intact DNA and thus an increased chance of a genetic defect being expressed.

That is just my two cents....
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 01:45 AM

But again, what is the difference between what I said above about this:



You have one pair, they produce twins, a leu and a het baby
You have another pair, they produce twins, a Leu and a het baby.

The babies born from each pair are 6+ generations apart.

It's "frowned" upon to breed the LEU X LEU but it's NOT "frowned" upon to breed the HET X HET or the HET X LEU.

99% of breeders either bred leu to het/het to het or still do.

This *could* very well be just as "dangerous" as breeding Leu X Leu. It's still done each and every day.



I dont see why the older breeders stopped what they were doing when it was, what i think it right, and was weeding out genetic problems in the lines. Because of some new-aged breeders saying that their life's work is all wrong they stop and introduce outside gliders into their lines thus muddying it all up and ruining their lives work.


It almost seems like people don't want to have pure, clean, healthy lines.


With all this outcrossing going on, we will never be able to track down the bad genes and breed them out. Seems like we're working in reverse, especially since this method of eliminating poor genes and defects proves effective.

I think that someone needs to take the initiative and, for the good of all gliders, TRULY make a healthy line of gliders.

My fear is that through all of this outcrossing, we're going to introduce a slew of diseases to our lines and soon, all the gliders will be so unhealthy, who knows if we'll ever be able to reverse the damage.

There are breeders on here who have 100's of gliders.

If you have room for 100's of gliders, why don't you (not aimed to anyone in particular) start a breeding program to produce healthy, pure, lines like we were attempting to do in the first place. I mean, i think i went on someone's website once and counted like 200+ gliders... not quite sure who that was though.


Who wants to volunteer for this task?
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 01:49 AM

Originally Posted By: Suggiegramma
I think part of the problem is that people who don't know what they're doing are starting to breed. It takes dedication and a lot of knowledge to make a correct pairing.



I agree 100%

I think that people who are knowledgeable in proper pairings should be fixing the lines so they're pure and healthy.

We have so many byb's that are breeding and no matter how much we try, it's going to be impossible to stop them.

But why should we continue to add to the problem. Shouldn't we be still trying to purify the lines and make them healthy?

At least then we would have some well documented lines that are healthy and through this we will gain more knowledge on glider genetics, diseases, etc
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 01:58 AM

Originally Posted By: GoGoGliders


This is why you "breed-out" the lines......the thought is that since the leu gene is recessive, there MIGHT be other genetic deficiencies that are carried on that recessive gene. In your example above, the liver problem. However, because you have breed it to a gray, the gray's DNA will "fill in the hole" of the defect causing the liver problem, thereby not allowing the liver disease to manifest. The DNA of the gray (without the recessive component) will patch the defect on the recessive component. If you breed recessive to recessive, there is a significantly decreased possibility that those genetic "holes" are filled by intact DNA and thus an increased chance of a genetic defect being expressed.

That is just my two cents....





I don't know if i necessarly agree with you which is ok :o)


One site I was reading made a great point

( stated above )

All too often when we out cross to get rid of a problem and it just hides the recessives enabling the negative trait to show up later in the line (and in other lines as the animals are outcrossed more).


I think it would be better if we did not outcross because say a leu glider was only known to carry 1 genetic problem (in this case we'll use the same as above, liver problems)

Now we're outcrossing the leu glider with other gliders who may in-fact carry other genetic problems thus we're muddying up the lines with a variety of problems instead of one.

If the leu glider only carries that one defect, liver problems, we can work with the line to get rid of that defect by line breeding/inbreeding.

Here is another quote from the article (changed slightly)

Inbreeding is used a lot in the breeding of many species. It can be used either to set a positive trait or identify a potentially negative trait depending upon the choices made.


I think we need to first find out the genetic problems in the lines, and then eliminate them. I think outcrossing is the wrong way of doing this.

All of this of course is IMO :-)
Posted By: Judie

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 02:54 AM

As far as I know there are no genetic problems in the Leu gene pool at this time.

However, breeders are breeding other varriations into the Leu lineages for two reasone. 1) to offer the potential buyer more than one varriation if the recessive color does not prove out to be a leucistic. 2)producing a colored het other than a Gray Het so it is more marketable.

Sad but true.
Posted By: Judie

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 03:00 AM

As far as I know... there are no Liver Problems in the Leucistic Varriation itself.
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 03:17 AM

the liver problems were just an example of some problem that can exist, not that it does in leu gliders.

We have no proof of any genetic problems in the gene pool right now but yet, leu to leu is still frowned upon.

That doesn't make sense.


I think, and it may be wrong, we should test breed our leu lines (mother to son, daughter to father) as well as every other line and NOT sell these babies.

These babies have to remain with the breeder forever. test breeding animals with similar genetics like that will double up on the recessive traits thus telling you if they carry any particular genetic problems.

Once the babies die, they have to be tested to see if there were any abnormalities. This will give us some insight into the gene pool of each of our lines.

We are sort of trying this now but not like we should be IMO

I know this type of breeding has happened in the past but not enough (in my opinion) to say that there are no genetic problems that leu's have.

If this is done with each leu line and after several breedings and several years of studying, we can then say the line is pure and healthy.

This should happen with each line to make sure each line does not carry anything that is hidden. Doubling up on recessive traits will bring forth hidden defects.

It's not an easy task and it will take a long time and a lot of work, but in the long run, it will benefit the gliders and community.

Only then, can we begin to outcross with other lines, because then, we will know each line is pure and the healthiest it can be.


We also have to beware of the inbreeding tolerance. Some animals have a high inbreeding tolerance some lower. Once that threshold is reached you start to have problems like sterility (like the mosaic lines)

But I think we totally screwed up by out crossing the already unproven lines with even more unproven lines. We got "lucky" and haven't wound up with severe issues but there may be problems we aren't seeing.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 03:58 PM

GliderFun I think what you are suggesting may be sound from a scientific standpoint in determining exact genetics, however, I don't think that it is going to be practical or even palatable to most glider owners.

Gliders, if cared for properly, are going to live a long time. A genetics study like the one you suggest is going to take what, another 15-20 years? That is assuming the offspring die of natural causes. If there is a problem in one of the lines, then that's purposefully creating an animal that is going to either die early and probably in pain, probably have ridiculous vet expenses, etc. What breeder can afford that?

And well...do we as a glider community really want to treat our animals like lab rats? Even the breeding stock that are not technically pets? I consider myself to be open-minded but inbreeding a pair purposely, for "the good of the glider" does not seem to be, to me, any good at all for those two gliders. Would it be for the greater good? Maybe, maybe not, only the results would tell us if the ends justified the means. We call them our babies and furkids, I just don't see too many people agreeing with an experiment of this nature.
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 04:27 PM

I understand what you mean. These are peoples pets. In many other types of pets, this has already been done so that we can have healthier pets now. With sugar gliders, it seems as if we skipped this step.

I understand that people may not agree, and understand that these are their babies, but personally, i think that isolating poor genetics and getting rid of them will save future owners money and heart ache in the future.

What happens if, from out crossing our leu lines, in 10 years ALL of the leu babies born have MULTIPLE genetic disorders, health problems, etc from introducing outside lines that have never been proven not to carry those genes? Same goes for the grays and white face, and mosaics.

They start to die younger and younger, have deformities, are sick from they day they're born because the proper precautions weren't made to ensure we weren't breeding poor genetics because the genetics were never proven out.

We took the time to inbreed until we got a color we desired and selectively bred to keep that color around. Why was that OK to do but selectively breeding/line breeding/etc for things that ACTUALLY MATTER, like health and genetics (other then color) are not for the good of the glider?

It's like we inbred to initially purify the lines and make them healthy, found a cool color, then focused on that because it would make us more money, not caring about any other genes the glider may be carrying and making up these rules like, "you can't breed leu to leu because of genetic problems" Well, if things were done correctly, there shouldn't really be that worry should there?

It's almost like, the breeders WERE trying to purify the lines and have healthy animals until they found different colors and then all they saw was dollar signs so they abandoned the genetic work they were doing and went into something more profitable... breeding the colors they found.



***Now I'm not picking on anyone in particular, nor do i know who the first breeders were or their intentions (i'm guessing it was to purify and make the lines healthier by line breeding based on a comment above), I'm making general statements and giving everyone food for thought. If you think about it, it actually makes sense***
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 05:19 PM

I wasn't around for the founding lines and all that...but throwing this out there...what about all the mill gliders that have no lineages, but we know that a great deal of them HAVE to be inbred...are those surviving greys now healthier and/or sturdier than the colorbred brethren?

I too do not want to pick on anyone, again, food for thought.
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 05:32 PM

I think that mill breeders are inbreeding but not in the right way. They're doing in indiscriminately not caring about their results, just profits. PLUS they're selling inbred babies

It's not just inbreeding that needs to be done and it can't be done on a whim and without knowledge of what you hope to acomplish.

Anyone can inbreed but it takes someone who knows what they're doing to inbreed/line breed to better a line.

People doing it correctly figure out what genes are present, what genes that should be kept and what genes should be eliminated.

They keep lineages on the babies/parents because that is very important.
They use inbreeding as a tool to express undesirable traits/genes that may be hiding because you're getting double recessives.

The way I think it's done is:

Once they express the undesirables though inbreeding they can then use selective breeding to get rid of these undesirable genes and purify a line.

Once a line is pure they line breed to maintain the line and make sure they do not re-introduce bad genetics into their pure line.


If we did that with all of the lines today, then we can safely start to cross lines but not until they're Truly pure!


The mill breeders are just inbreeding and selling offspring of inbreeding. That's terrible and will ruin lines even more because they're getting the genetic defects to show and then selling the babies with these genetic defects to other people who may then breed to other gliders, thus spreading the genetic problems. They're skipping the purification step.

kinda confusing :-)
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 06:20 PM

Originally Posted By: GliderFun
I think that mill breeders are inbreeding but not in the right way. They're doing in indiscriminately not caring about their results, just profits. PLUS they're selling inbred babies

It's not just inbreeding that needs to be done and it can't be done on a whim and without knowledge of what you hope to acomplish.

Anyone can inbreed but it takes someone who knows what they're doing to inbreed/line breed to better a line.

People doing it correctly figure out what genes are present, what genes that should be kept and what genes should be eliminated.

They keep lineages on the babies/parents because that is very important.
They use inbreeding as a tool to express undesirable traits/genes that may be hiding because you're getting double recessives.

The way I think it's done is:

Once they express the undesirables though inbreeding they can then use selective breeding to get rid of these undesirable genes and purify a line.

Once a line is pure they line breed to maintain the line and make sure they do not re-introduce bad genetics into their pure line.


If we did that with all of the lines today, then we can safely start to cross lines but not until they're Truly pure!


The mill breeders are just inbreeding and selling offspring of inbreeding. That's terrible and will ruin lines even more because they're getting the genetic defects to show and then selling the babies with these genetic defects to other people who may then breed to other gliders, thus spreading the genetic problems. They're skipping the purification step.

kinda confusing :-)



GliderFun: I completely understand what you are trying to get at and I pretty much agree with you, it seems we did skip over a step in the genetics process and went straight for the money making area of it! (Granted I am sure there are others that are helping the lines in this way, but are secretive about it because inbreeding is such a sin in the Glider community and those few would be looked down on for their way of doing thing!) I do believe if the inbreeding if done the right way (Kept track of, Babies not sold and for GENETIC research on these Color Creations) Should be considered helping to purify the lines down the road and isolate the bad genes and remove them by line breeding, inbreeding and other methods I may not have named. BUT ONLY IF DONE IN A CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENT, WHERE ALL RESEARCH AND ANIMALS CAN BE KEPT TRACK OF.
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 06:43 PM

OK OK Ok ok....

The reason inbreeding and line breeding are not quite as acceptable here as they are in rat breeding is because the available genetic diversity of the two animals is vastly different. Rats can be line bred for 9 generations before problems begin to arise. It's estimated that sugar gliders only have 3 generations of wiggle room because of the small population introduced to the US for us to work with. While it may be acceptable to breed rats and mice and cull the ones that have genetic defects, it's not considered ethical to do with sugar gliders...much like it would be considered unethical to do this with children. When you end up with a joey that is in constant pain due to a genetic defect that was inbred to the surface, you can't just chuck it in the snake cage to get rid of it.

If there was ever anyone against inbreeding it was ME. Trust me, I've seen inbreeding create joeys that hurt just to live. The local sugar glider market encourages a lot of inbreeding for profit...I don't care what your goal is, sugar gliders should be bred with more care than what you were doing with mice in a lab. The sterility in mosaics, again, is a good example of what problems can arise from this...you cannot "cull" the "breeding stock" in your inbred line. It doesn't work that way with gliders. The mosaic line took 4 or 5 generations of outbreeding to get rid of the sterility that came from inbreeding.

Now...that said, I am not suggesting that we inbreed or line breed leu to leu. Not at all, quite the opposite. What I am asking for is why we cannot breed two virtually UNRELATED leus together. Is it because people are afraid the joeys will come out missing parts? If that's it, say so. The fact is there doesn't seem to be ANY solid EVIDENCE that this fear is justified.

I'd like to know why leucism was picked for this rumor...why not mosaic? Mosaic is so similar to dapple or mearle in chis and doxies that if ever there was a color I didn't want to see bred together it was two mosaics. And yet, there are mosaic pairings that seem to be totally fine. It still comes down to the fact that the *fear* to breed two leucistics is irrelevant without some solid EVIDENCE as to why this is a taboo. I don't need theories and excuses. Nor am I trying to start a new wave of newbies breeding leu to leu; I honestly believe the leu to leu breeding should be done by the more experienced breeders first, so the pairings can be carefully decided by people that KNOW these lines by heart, and so they know what to look for in offspring. I am simply trying to find the TRUTH in this RUMOR, which none has surfaced yet.
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 07:01 PM

I actually read that the safe inbreeding quotient is the 20th generation in rats. I could be wrong.

Do you have some proof that the safe inbreeding quotient for sugar gliders is only 3 generations?

And I understand what your question is and I agree with you.

I don't think we have ANY 100% solid evidence that breeding Leu to Leu causes anything to be concerned about.

What I was getting at, was that the only reason we would fear leu to leu is that we don't know what genes are linked to the white coat of the Leus. We also know piratically nothing about genetics of sugar gliders because no one has done the research.

The only things we know are, there are several different colors and they're passed through certain kinds of breeding.


To answer your question:

There has not been any evidence, to my knowledge, that would support the claim that breeding Leu to Leu would cause any negative effect if you had bred 2 leus from 5+ generations apart.


More food for though and no one jump down my throat, again, im not picking on anyone.

Could it be that it's frowned upon to breed 2 Leus that are 5+ generations apart (but not 2 grays, mosaics, white faces that are 5+ generations apart) BECAUSE if people start to do that, the price of Leucistic gliders would fall causing breeders to not make as much money on their babies.

The prices have already fallen but if people breed leu to leu the price of leus will fall drastically.

What if people start to breed creamino to creamino that are both 5+ generations apart. Prices would not be 4000.00 a baby anymore and will also fall drastically.

Just something else to throw out there.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 07:11 PM

Of course the mills are inbreeding indicriminately...my point is simply that they DO have gliders to sell...so even out of these awful, horrible, makes you want to throw up it's so bad conditions, there are survivors. So somehow these gliders have managed to live on and produce offspring. Mills won't keep a bad gene around. Doesn't make business sense to them. The sickly, the biters, they are destroyed, no questions, no conscience.

What glider breeders are doing now is working, producing happy healthy gliders. Why go through all this purifying the lines, when at any point genetic mutations can occur and completely wreck an entire line then? Mutations are normal occurences in any animal species, leu is a phenotype expression of one mutation, but there can be multiple mutations in one animal. I mean I have attached earlobes, my second toe is longer than my "big" toe, and my eyes are hazel, and my blood is o+...each one of those attributes is different genes at work, in some cases several sets of genes, and they are only the attributes that can be seen or tested. How I metabolize sugars and fats and proteins cannot be seen but are genes at work all the same and further depend on my environment, habits, and what I eat.

The only way to know if leu to leu is a sound pairing is to do it, with more than one pair, and see what happens with the offspring. Sounds to me like that's been done already with the foundation lines since there weren't other leu's to pair with and I'd hazard that the leu to leu no-no rule came into play shortly after with the shift in glider breeding ideology into breeding out instead of line breeding. Now you can get leu's and leu hets far enough apart to be unrelated whereas before that wasn't possible.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 07:57 PM

Originally Posted By: lovely1inred
Of course the mills are inbreeding indicriminately...my point is simply that they DO have gliders to sell...so even out of these awful, horrible, makes you want to throw up it's so bad conditions, there are survivors. So somehow these gliders have managed to live on and produce offspring. Mills won't keep a bad gene around. Doesn't make business sense to them. The sickly, the biters, they are destroyed, no questions, no conscience.

What glider breeders are doing now is working, producing happy healthy gliders. Why go through all this purifying the lines, when at any point genetic mutations can occur and completely wreck an entire line then? Mutations are normal occurences in any animal species, leu is a phenotype expression of one mutation, but there can be multiple mutations in one animal. I mean I have attached earlobes, my second toe is longer than my "big" toe, and my eyes are hazel, and my blood is o+...each one of those attributes is different genes at work, in some cases several sets of genes, and they are only the attributes that can be seen or tested. How I metabolize sugars and fats and proteins cannot be seen but are genes at work all the same and further depend on my environment, habits, and what I eat.

The only way to know if leu to leu is a sound pairing is to do it, with more than one pair, and see what happens with the offspring. Sounds to me like that's been done already with the foundation lines since there weren't other leu's to pair with and I'd hazard that the leu to leu no-no rule came into play shortly after with the shift in glider breeding ideology into breeding out instead of line breeding. Now you can get leu's and leu hets far enough apart to be unrelated whereas before that wasn't possible.


The lines are NOT bred out far enough yet. Most millbreeders are making money on supplie not the sugar gliders. They do not care about health as long as it is breathing when a person buys it the cage and food suplies.
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 08:02 PM

GliderFun, I have wondered if the rule of no leu to leu was related to the breeders (who used to only sell 66% hets and above only to other USDA licensed breeders) worrying it may drop out the leu market. I don't really think that's as much of a problem anymore, it's already dropped out, leus go for about as much as a 66% leu het used to cost. Even as much as white faces used to cost. Back then, there was also a good reason for this rule, because when there were still only a few generations established from the line founders themselves, and those line founders were still breeding, if a leu was bred to another leu it would have been a terrible pairing. The highest allowed in most cases was a 50% het or a 100% that came from a leu and a grey. It just seems to me like if these are the reasons for why leu to leu pairings are frowned upon, it's time to stop making up stories about horribly sickly joeys that came from two leus breeding.
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 09:00 PM

Back then there was a reason for not breeding leu to leu. Lines were not far enough apart. But that was a while ago.

Now with the bad economy the price for leus dropped to as low as $700.00 each but when I first learned about gliders about 2-3 years ago, Leu prices were really high. I bought one of my first leus back in december 2008 for around $1500.00 and the price range for leus were $1300.00-$1800.00 not too long before that.

If leu to leu breeding would have happened on a regular basis (with gliders who were 5+ generations apart), the price of leus would have dropped long before the economy killed the prices this year.
Posted By: Sabarika

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 09:02 PM

I don't have any experience with genetics but I do want to add a thought.. I understand it is a lot of cost to raise and own many gliders but there must be someone out there who has the time/space/dedication to perhaps try isolating a pair and line breed and keep the offspring--I mean people manage to find room for "just a few more" when they fall in love with a newly OOP joey someone is offering so why should they claim they don't have the time/space for breeding gliders they already own and keeping the family when they can find space/time for a new joey they bought from someone else? I understand there is no profit from this experiment but it appears to be in the gliders best interest to try and isolate these possible defects and weed them out NOW, even if it DOES take a few breeders setting aside one or two extra cages to keep a family and its' offspring. I only mention this because I believe it was a comment made earlier in the thread where "who will have the time/space/money? not many" was made, or something along those lines. I think if this is an important enough issue there WILL be enough time/money/space/etc to do it, seeing as it could possibly help out our current generations of gliders. I myself have always wondered about genetic disorders in gliders---gliders can live as long as 15 or 20 years, but we purchase them at 8 weeks old and often breed them soon after their first birthday--we don't let them "live" long enough to SEE many of these diseases until they have had MANY many offspring and by that time those offspring have likely produced and their offspring have and so forth..so we might not see a problem until it is several generations in and we have 20 or so gliders from that one parent who are possibly affected with a life threatening disorder that we didn't know about simply because it never showed up as young as 1-5 years.
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 09:10 PM

Thanks for that add on!! I totally agree with you!

It almost seems like:

Breeding for $$

Not Breeding to purify lines (properly) and not for the good of the glider.

*shrug*

For many, money has to be a big reason for breeding. Why have 100 cages of gliders and produce different colors that are het for everything if money isn't a factor?
Posted By: TheGliderPlayroom

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 09:19 PM

Originally Posted By: Sabarika
I understand it is a lot of cost to raise and own many gliders but there must be someone out there who has the time/space/dedication to perhaps try isolating a pair and line breed and keep the offspring.


I've actually spent 3 years now doing exactly this. I have a trio of 50% hets that are the culmination of years of work, just praying to see white in 6-8 weeks when the 3 joeys show themselves. I chose the best leu lines I could find. I started with a leu female out of a 25% het and a 50% het, both parents out of a non-leu line and a het; bred her to a normal, and a het from them to a normal. Then I found a 100% het male from equally amazing lines, and bred him to a normal. There is NO leu to het, or 100% het to 100% het in these lines for 7 generations.

From both lines, I have here 16 gliders, plus 3 more IP.
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 09:23 PM

are you line breeding/inbreeding to see if they are carrying any hidden undesirable genes?

Good job on the hard work!!
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 09:53 PM

Originally Posted By: GliderFun
Thanks for that add on!! I totally agree with you!

It almost seems like:

Breeding for $$

Not Breeding to purify lines (properly) and not for the good of the glider.

*shrug*

For many, money has to be a big reason for breeding. Why have 100 cages of gliders and produce different colors that are het for everything if money isn't a factor?



I'm sorry, but that's simply not true. There are MANY breeders who are working hard to help clean up the lines and breed gliders that will help other breeders to do the same.

I know of one member here(Leyna) who has the most meticulous breeding program EVER! She breeds out almost all her gliders and the few het pairs she has are low percentages.

Of all my pairs I only have ONE pair of leu hets together and that pair is my husband's. All my other leus and hets are being bred out. The other pair of hets I have together(not yet, but hopefully soon) to produce color are an albino het male and 2 66% cremino het girls. So, even though they MIGHT throw color, they are completely unrelated.

Unfortunately, due to various circumstances, I had to separate 2 of my pairs this year. Both pairs threw leus. When I separated them I COULD have put the gliders with other leu hets to get more leus. However, I chose to breed them out instead. The 2 boys have perfect leu lineage(literally, there is NO crossing of the leu lines in their lineages) so I'm hoping that their joeys will be able to help other breeders to improve their leu breeding programs.

There are MANY other breeders out there doing the same thing. We could choose to pair our leus/hets with other hets and get $1500 joeys. However, instead, we're breeding out our gliders and getting a tops of maybe $400 for a 100% het. For the 50% hets their price is pretty much the same as a classic gray.

So, please, don't judge ALL breeders based on what SOME breeders do.

BTW, on a different note, even if you were able to breed a "pure" glider using the inbreeding method(which, imo, sounds horrible! Why would anyone in their right mind want to do that to poor gliders?!). What then?... you'd have to eventually breed those joeys with "fresh blood" and that would "dirty" the line all over again. The whole concept just seems really ridiculous and, if I might add, cruel. It makes me nauseous to think about the ACCIDENTALLY inbred gliders, I can't ever imagine someone wanting to do that on PURPOSE! cry
Posted By: Judie

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 10:30 PM

off_topic I do hope a Mod comes along. It seems we have this Topic... in two forums now. Breeding and Babies and Fact or Fiction.
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/07/09 10:47 PM

I didn't say all breeders were like this. A generality like that would be ignorant.

And line breeding/inbreeding is a common method to purify lines, or so i hear.

Maybe you'll have a few gliders who will have problems but in the long run, it will save us from having EVERY BABY with multiple diseases in 20 years... Right?

Tell me if I have this all butt backwards because when i was reading it and thinking about it, it makes perfect sense. :-)

Try to leave your feelings at the door for this and think logically, piratically, and think about the future of gliders in captivity.

If you purify the lines (leu lines, mosaic lines, gray lines, white face lines etc) you will be SURE there is no genetic issue lingering in the recessives. You will have many pure lines of gliders to work with.

Once each line is purified you will be able to out cross with the other lines. IE Leu with white face, Leu with gray
WITHOUT worrying about muddying up the lines with unknown HIDDEN genetics because every line has been purified.


Think of it this way.

Since we have NO IDEA what hidden recessive genes our gliders possess for health problems right now we can end up with damaging all the future babies in 20 years at the rate we're going.


From what I've been reading, by out crossing UNPURE lines what we're doing is taking one animal (SAY THIS IS MOTHER A) who may have a recessive gene for one disease (say kidney problems)

breeding it with another animal (SAY THIS IS FATHER A) who may have a recessive for 2 or 3 other bad genes (say liver problems, heart problems, and lung problems).

What does that make the babies. A MESS!

The babies now might have the recessive for 4 bad genes (Kidney problems, lung problems, heart problems, and liver problems).

Lets call that baby BABY A (make baby A a 50% leu het)

Now we take BABY A and breed it with another glider of UNKNOWN genetic background (and i'm not talking about color genetic background which is the only genetic background we have currently on our gliders).

Say the glider we breed with BABY A we call BABY B (standard gray glider)

BABY B has been out crossed the same way and actually had the same recessive genetic problems as BABY A BUT we didn't know this!

the babies from BABY A AND BABY B come out of pouch severely deformed, they have under developed lungs, under developed hearts, etc and they die.

NOW we know that BABY A and BABY B might be carrying something bad in their recessive genetics.

BUT THERE IS ONE MAJOR PROBLEM!!! IT'S TOO LATE

BABY A'S parents have had 25 joeys by the time this is found out. And those joeys have had 4 joeys each. Breeders are wondering why the babies have been coming out small and early. They're wondering why the mother or father is eating the babies.

BABY B'S parents have also had 25 joeys by the time this is found out. And those joeys had 4 joeys each.

Now we have 200 gliders who carry the genetics for severe genetic problems and will be spreading these problems to they babies they have. It will be introduced into other peoples lines, other color's lines.

It's surfacing left and right and babies are dying left and right.

NOW WHAT DO WE DO?

BABY A AND BABY B'S grandparents were also carriers of the poor genetics, so were their great grand parents.

Who knows how many gliders now carry the genetics for severe health problems.....


By inbreeding, eliminating these hidden recessive genes, and line breeding We create pure lines. Once these pure lines are created, we can start outcrossing with other PURE LINES.




Does THAT make sense to anyone??? LOL :-)
Posted By: hwh4ev

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 02:05 AM

after reading thru all of this, i still dont see the
need to inbreed/line breed to weed out any genetic defects.
it seems to me that this has been done already by the
older breeders and i have yet to hear of any deformed
gliders from this forum.
there are alot of old gliders around that used to breed
and it seems to me that if there were major problems
they would of shown by now.
does anybody that breeds have any babies that are deformed,
sickly, etc.

regards,
nancy glazar
Posted By: gliderma

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 02:30 AM

Not so far, but I am new to breeding compared to most everyone here. I do have a leu male with a WFB female who just had twin male WFB's 100%leu hets and a leu female with a WF male that also had twins, male & female that are WF 100% leu hets. They are newly oop, but look to be good & healthy with no known or obvious defects. I did not put the leu's together because I was under the impression that it would be a bad thing to do.
Posted By: SugaWhit

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 03:32 AM

I can honestly see where GliderFun is coming from, my answer to this problem is not to breed out, but to test.

I really think that the best way, without harming or breeding any more gliders, to figure out what we have both color and health wise is to establish a genetic "norm" (say standard healthy grey glider) and go from there.

Leu, Mosaic, (a pattern I mentally think of as tobiano/overo as I am a horse person) and creamino (again, in my head, buckskin. Hilarious no?)

We already do necropsies, the extra step of sending off dna material to be examined isn't far fetched. We do it in horses all the time.
Liver, eye, and kidney issues, I don't know if we could ever isolate to a strong degree without some very obvious gene abnormality, and a bunch more money.

But color and linkage of genes via expression of them I think is very viable, and would give you a much better chance of knowing Far more then what inbreeding would do.

I have a Leu paired with a 100% het. As they are well bred out, I personally have no problem with it. I can however, concede that further out crossing are needed far more then bringing the lines in, and am currently working to that end on my Creamino/het pairs future crossings.

I want to see a place where we can genetically test for who's parent is who's, and what glider carries which gene, expressed or not, as coming from a medical background, things like the 50% het I have in my siggy kinda make my head hurt.
The glider either Has or doesn't have the gene, the "%" were put in place to help make money and track the lines.

I would much rather it be like in horses, and we can track the animals parentage not by what the breeder thinks, or remembers, but by fact. Same with color-

My problem is no one is interested in Really doing all the homework, as the time/money/gliders needed is magnicifient.

And as we don't Have a real central registery like the horse folks do, there isn't a group of people floating around with money and time and the animals best interest in mind to go to a college or a development lab and get the ball rolling. That would be a huge boon to all glider folks!

/end rant.
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 03:48 AM

hwh4ev--There *have* been genetic problems that have surfaced. You just wouldn't know it because most of the people involved try to keep a lid on it. I have one of those gliders, and he is VERY inbred, from popular lines. There *are* bad genes floating around in the genetics of our pedigreed gliders, which is why you must be so careful when you choose two to breed. The glider I have has no leu lineage, he is from only white faced lines.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 03:59 AM

Quote:
The glider either Has or doesn't have the gene, the "%" were put in place to help make money and track the lines.


The % were put in there to show what CHANCE there was of the glider carrying the gene. Once proven, it becomes a 100% het. No, they were NOT put there to make money or track lines. (I do not breed for leu or albino but found that a bit offensive) Having the % does nothing to show the lineage of the glider, only the family tree does. And with out the %, a breeder could charge the same for ALL hets regardless of the chance they actually carry the gene.

Say they sell Hets for $1000. If the glider is a 100% Het, that might be a good deal but if it is only a 25%, not so much. The breeders would make a great deal more money if they just sold any Hets for $1000 instead of adjusting the price DOWN for the lesser hets.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 04:10 AM

Originally Posted By: SugaWhit

The glider either Has or doesn't have the gene, the "%" were put in place to help make money and track the lines.

That's just not true. Percentages are often used in genetics, and have nothing to do with money or, in fact, with tracking the lines.

It is to indicate the percent likelihood of the glider carrying the trait. It is very simple genetics to figure out, although, like you, it confuses me. However, it has nothing to do with making money!

Edit: Sorry, Dancing. We must have been writing at the same time. What I meant was "Yeah! What she said!"
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 04:17 AM

Originally Posted By: hwh4ev
i have yet to hear of any deformed
gliders from this forum. there are alot of old gliders around that used to breed and it seems to me that if there were major problems they would of shown by now.
does anybody that breeds have any babies that are deformed, sickly, etc.

regards,
nancy glazar


Nancy - I've had inbred classic grays with problems from being inbred. It shows up regularly frequently - I'm surprised you haven't heard of it.

There is an entire line of mosaics that are sterile because of inbreeding.

There are examples that come up all the time. In the more exotic colors, the genetic problems are either hushed up, or they are written off as being some other kind of sickness, not genetic.
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 04:19 AM

The percentages tell you specifically what chance a joey has of carrying a certain gene. If you have two 100% leu hets together, one in four of their joeys will be leu, the other 3 will be grey. Two of these joeys will carry the leu gene and one, statistically, will not. The only way to express that possibility is with percentages--and without percentages to help us keep track of who is more likely to carry a gene, the leucistic and other recessive color variant lineages may not have even survived due to all of the inbreeding that would be required if % hets were disregarded.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 04:49 AM

Quote:
If you have two 100% leu hets together, one in four of their joeys will be leu, the other 3 will be grey. Two of these joeys will carry the leu gene and one, statistically, will not.


even that isn't always accurate. Shelle's two 100% hets had
twins, one leu, one het (or potential het).
twins, one leu, one het(or potential het).
twins, both hets(or potential hets).

But over all, the averages are right.
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 04:57 AM

Originally Posted By: kitsune
hwh4ev--There *have* been genetic problems that have surfaced. You just wouldn't know it because most of the people involved try to keep a lid on it. I have one of those gliders, and he is VERY inbred, from popular lines. There *are* bad genes floating around in the genetics of our pedigreed gliders, which is why you must be so careful when you choose two to breed. The glider I have has no leu lineage, he is from only white faced lines.



This is exactly what I'm talking about. Your white face glider HAS genetic problems.

Now what about his brothers and sisters? Do any of them show the genetic problems that yours shows? If not then they can be a carrier for the genetic problems.

So many people are now breeding their leus and mosaics with white faces, thus spreading the genetic problems your white face has, to every other line.

His parents are carriers and his grandparents are also carriers of this genetic problem!






Say your white face is the 7th generation of glider from that line. That means every other glider in that line could have the genetic problems he does whether it's in recessive form or being shown. And that means every glider baby produced from that line may carry that genetic problem and every baby they produce can carry that problem and so on until it's spread everywhere, like a virus!

If we were to have exposed these genetic problems at the BEGINNING of the line through inbreeding and bred it out before out crossing, you would NOT have a little white face glider who has genetic problems right now. You would have a healthy, happy, glider with pure lines.

If there are tests we can do then GREAT, we should be doing it to find out what is really in our gliders lines. If not, we should find a way (like the inbreeding/line breeding method) before we spread the poor genes to every glider out there




I want to make an example and I mean no harm and don't mean to insult anyone but maybe it will help everyone understand my point since this is a known problem.



AIDS... It's a disease that spreads from one person to the next through sex or blood/etc... we all know that... Say condoms and birth control doesn't exist.. Pretend that tests for AIDS doesn't exist either


Say this is the country of Italy in 1940's


Say a guy has AIDS (doesn't know it) and has sex with a girl.. Their child may have the aids virus now. The next person the man sleeps with has a baby and that baby has it too.


Then those kids have kids, and those kids have kids. And they all have the aids virus. None of them knows it until 70 years later, when science develops a test for aids. then they find out, their family members have been dying and have been sick because of this virus they've been passing to everyone.


BUT it didnt just spread through Italy... The family members have traveled to different countries and have had sex with people in those countries and had babies there too.

Now, 70 years later (aids was said to have actually started in the 1940's), what started in "Italy" is now in EVERY country affecting 33 Million people (real number).


Lets say, back in 1940's the first few people who had the aids virus (and didnt know it) was told to kill their first born child because that was the only way to find out if the aids virus was being passed on. If they did that it would be beneficial to the human race as a whole.

If that was truly the case and they would have done it, how many lives would they have saved today? MILLIONS

They probably would have told whoever suggested to kill their kids that they are insane and "get out of my house, I love my kid"


Luckily there are routine tests for aids!


That's kind of the same thing as far as inbreeding. Yes, it will hurt gliders in the present but how many gliders would we save from genetic disorders, pain, suffering, etc in the future by doing this now?


If there are genetic tests then we should be doing them with each line to find out bad traits our gliders are carrying. We should eliminate them or we could pay the price later on



My stories are getting stranger and stranger as the night is wearing on. I should probably sleep huh? lol
Posted By: SugaWhit

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 05:11 AM

Okay, I'm guessing I was not clear enough-
I understand Why we do percentages. Perfectly really, I promise!
when I say 'track the lines' I mean the chances of the resessive gene.
It Is about money- you can't tell me that a low het isn't (or wasn't things are different now) More expensive then a standard grey glider. I can see the point that they Could charge more for any and all- but almost All of you merrily skipped right over my main point.

Why fuss around with percentages when you could test for things like other breeds do?!? It's almost barbaric to me to say 50% het, it boggles me honestly.

I don't know of any other animal species that goes into such crazy detail based on genetic percentages taught to middleschoolers like we do.

Why not work on genetic testing for issues instead of not Really talking about genetic illnesses an animal may or may not have?

The idea that
Posted By: SugaWhit

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 05:19 AM

(continuing from above, yay iPhone!)
The idea that more money is paid for the Chance, even if high, that a glider has the gene is what is so silly to me, even though i play the game as well.

I just feel it would be a Much better idea for us to try and isolate the faulty genes that are causing issues (that no one wants to share, grrrr) as well as the color genes.

That way, that leu that might also be a wfb/mosaic will be known for what it really is- same with that 66% leu het, or in my case a 50% creamino het- wink

Even better would be to be able to look back and Trace any problems. We know where the mosaic sterility lines start, what if we could do the same for other diseases? Know that 'blah blah' came from this one glider-?! That would be Wonderful, and help clean up the lines-

Or imagin you were told you had a certian animal from a popular line- now you can be Sure- etc. Like I said, not sure how we Dont have this yet, but I'm pushing for it, and am happy to help-

That way, we could answer the question about Leu to Leu, and not just speculate.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 05:19 AM

Ok, providing I could find a lab/vet willing to check the dna on a glider to tell if it carries the leu gene, how many are willing to PAY the cost for that testing in addition to the cost of the glider? I'm betting not many. Most would rather have the percents and make their decisions based on chance.

I know that before, a low percent leu het was only margianally more than a grey.

I remember...
Leus were $2000-2200
100% hets were $1500
66% hets were $1000
50% hets were about $500-700
25% hets were about $300
and lower than that were MAYBE $50 more than the cost of a grey IF charged any extra at all.

And out of those, MANY of the "12% hets" proved out.

(Oh and about this time, the first Creamino was put up for sale at the grand cost of $10,000!)
Posted By: TheGliderPlayroom

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 05:30 AM

You're basically talking about putting a 8-10 week old joey under anesthetic, dangerous in itself, and drawing blood, just so you can know if you're buying a het or not. IMO? THAT is barbaric. Not to mention the many, many gliders that would have to be subjected to extensive testing to have a basis to compare to begin with.
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 05:39 AM

I haven't had a glider neutered yet, but what is the general age... 3 months?

They're then put under to do the procedure. Why not take blood then.. It would force breeders to hold babies longer if that's what they wanted (to ensure they're actually a carrier) OR it will cost the new owner.

but forget about color... that's unimportant. What about genes that are lined to diseases, heart failure, obesity, liver failure, kidney failure, and the list goes on.

Is there a way to test for these genes with blood tests?

Color should be a secondary thing... the health of the gliders, now shouldn't that be more important then what color gene they're carrying?????
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 06:21 AM

Quote:
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Your white face glider HAS genetic problems.

Now what about his brothers and sisters? Do any of them show the genetic problems that yours shows? If not then they can be a carrier for the genetic problems.

So many people are now breeding their leus and mosaics with white faces, thus spreading the genetic problems your white face has, to every other line.

His parents are carriers and his grandparents are also carriers of this genetic problem!


Yes...I know this all too well. The breeder didn't find it a sound enough reason to retire anyone or warn those with gliders that had similar lineage. 4 offspring from this pairing, 3 had the same condition. One male two females; one grey two white faces; the one healthy offspring was a grey female. Unfortunately, his lineage is more like a family stick than a family tree.

So...inbreeding is not such a good idea, and this is one reason I'm sensitive about that topic...but where the lines are today, there are many leu het pairings being made that are quite satisfactorily distant in relation; the same can be done with a leu to leu pairing, UNLESS hypothetically there is some defective gene attached to the leu gene that only is expressed when two leus are bred...but there has been no indication thus far that this is the case. There wasn't any hesitation when people paired mosaics together. Why leucistics? Because it's recessive?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 06:26 AM

"Family Stick"

Haha that got me laughing!
Now back to the serious conversation...
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 06:41 AM

It only takes one mosaic to reproduce the coloring. Who has two mosaics together? Or are you talking about the early lines that were inbred that led to the sterile line? Back then, it wasn't known that you only needed one mosaic parent. (not that I'm excusing the inbreeding that was done)

And males aren't neutered until 4-6 months oop (and/or a certain weight) and those that want joeys, usually want them younger than that.
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 06:49 AM

Originally Posted By: kitsune
Quote:
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Your white face glider HAS genetic problems.

Now what about his brothers and sisters? Do any of them show the genetic problems that yours shows? If not then they can be a carrier for the genetic problems.

So many people are now breeding their leus and mosaics with white faces, thus spreading the genetic problems your white face has, to every other line.

His parents are carriers and his grandparents are also carriers of this genetic problem!


Yes...I know this all too well. The breeder didn't find it a sound enough reason to retire anyone or warn those with gliders that had similar lineage. 4 offspring from this pairing, 3 had the same condition. One male two females; one grey two white faces; the one healthy offspring was a grey female. Unfortunately, his lineage is more like a family stick than a family tree.

So...inbreeding is not such a good idea, and this is one reason I'm sensitive about that topic...but where the lines are today, there are many leu het pairings being made that are quite satisfactorily distant in relation; the same can be done with a leu to leu pairing, UNLESS hypothetically there is some defective gene attached to the leu gene that only is expressed when two leus are bred...but there has been no indication thus far that this is the case. There wasn't any hesitation when people paired mosaics together. Why leucistics? Because it's recessive?



I understand that the experience you had did make you wary of inbreeding and line breeding but you can't let that BAD BAD breeder put a bad taste in your mouth.

Inbreeding/line breeding is a very powerful tool that will help a breeder find the best and worst in their lines. UNFORTUNATELY the breeder you got your glider from didn't know how to properly use this method and sold gliders that should have NEVER EVER been sold and bred gliders that should have NEVER EVER been bred.

If it's done properly, it will BENEFIT gliders in the long run. If people do it like the breeder you got your baby from did, the glider population will be in big trouble.


Again, they did the inbreeding, displayed the bad traits, but did not eliminate them!

They skipped the final step!
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 06:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Gucciburger
"Family Stick"

Haha that got me laughing!
Now back to the serious conversation...



LOLOLOL! I giggled when i read that too!
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 07:01 AM

My boy is wiggly and shaky all the time. He can't jump or glide, when he tries he flips over on his back and falls like a brick. He has no instinctual fear of predatory animals, none of people either, and was lucky to survive past his 12 week because of the intensive attention he required to eat and drink sufficiently when he was 7 to 12 weeks oop. I have never been able to get it diagnosed, but the problem with finding these genes is that a glider suffers for it. You can't leave a trail of casualties for the ideal of a better lineage in the end. The most ethical thing to do is to retire lines proven to carry the bad gene, and move on. If it doesn't express it's not a problem...but once it is expressed it should be removed from the gene pool to keep it from spreading.

My boy is perfectly happy and is the sweetest boy ever...I don't know if he'll die early or live to be old and even more grey...but there was a joey born with a deformed respiratory system and internal defects that caused him a lot of pain before he had to be put to sleep at 12 weeks old. The parents were separated and paired again with new mates. This is what should not be done.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 07:03 AM

Originally Posted By: GliderFun
but forget about color... that's unimportant. What about genes that are lined to diseases, heart failure, obesity, liver failure, kidney failure, and the list goes on.

Is there a way to test for these genes with blood tests?

Color should be a secondary thing... the health of the gliders, now shouldn't that be more important then what color gene they're carrying?????


I'm unaware of a glider genome project. In fact, they haven't clearly linked genes to the diseases and conditions you mentioned in humans - for which there has been an active genome project for decades. We don't even understand all the color genetics for gliders, and now you want us to prevent obesity and liver failure?

May I gently suggest you start your own thread? When you say - Color should be a secondary thing - that could be right. However, THIS thread is about Leu to Leu breeding. So, for the purpose of this discussion, Color is Primary, not secondary.
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 07:36 AM

I'm not saying color is not primary in THIS discussion but in context to what was being said, color should be secondary.

What i was commenting on was something unrelated to this thread to begin with (testing glider genetics to find out what color they have in their genetics)

The thread is on leu to leu breeding and if it's safe. Neither what the OP posted nor what I replied with was on topic.

I'll try to stay more on topic though from now on
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 08:25 AM

Let's just say that you DID do this inbreeding project and you inbred the lines and found and weeded out any genetic health issues...

What about all the sick and/or dead joeys along the way? What of them? Would you do what the labs do when they're breeding mice(seeing as how that's the comparison being used) and just kill and toss the joeys with defects?

What you're saying makes a bit of sense, yes. However, it is NOT practical and is cruel to even THINK of doing to these animals that we love so much.
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 09:58 AM

In my opinion sometimes you have to sacrifice some for the greater good of others.

Like when a mother gives a vital organ to a dying child so the child can live even though she dies.

Or, hope no one takes offense to this but what about the thousands of American men and women who sacrifice their lives for the greater good of the United States for years to come so we can have freedom and live good lives. What happens when/if they die? We bury them. We care about what happens to them but we commend them for the sacrifice they make for US.

The same thing can go for sugar gliders. We would have to sacrifice some for the greater good of the lines for years to come.

You can humanely put them to sleep or keep them to live out their lives with you and not breed.

If this was done, and done correctly, we would never have to do it again and we would have healthier gliders for years to come.

It just seems like by not doing this will just lead to THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of slightly/moderately sick animals who suffer ever slightly/moderately and die younger INSTEAD OF a SMALL amount of gliders who may suffer a bit more, but its for the greater good.

I understand everyone loves them so much, but shouldnt we be doing something productive to ensure the future generations have HEALTHY gliders that will live long lives to love too.

If we spread poor genes, our future kids will have sickly gliders.



ALSO QUOTE FROM ABOVE

"The most ethical thing to do is to retire lines proven to carry the bad gene, and move on. If it doesn't express it's not a problem...but once it is expressed it should be removed from the gene pool to keep it from spreading."


so we should only deal with what we see and not with what we dont see. What about the issues being passed down through recessive genes? What happens when we start to find EVERY line finally expressing the bad genes because we cross contaminated all the lines and now they all carry the recessive for bad traits? Then we stop breeding every line, get some wild caught gliders and start over because that's what I think will happen.

It's like all the gliders in 10 years down the line being white face, white tip creamino mosaics, who are het for leu and het for platinum EXCEPT Substitute the colors for severe genetic disorders.

Anyway, sleepy time for me. I'll check back tomorrow! :-)
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 10:35 AM

Originally Posted By: GliderFun
In my opinion sometimes you have to sacrifice some for the greater good of others.


I want to say SO much in response to that, as I'm sure many others will when they read this, but I don't think I'd be able to type a g-rated response, so I'm just going to keep my mouth shut.

I hope that a mod comes by to shut down this ridiculousness before everyone else wakes up and wants to put in their $0.02... It ain't gonna be pretty!
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 10:36 AM

Just one little thing to think about: gliders aren't making the decisions for themselves, you'd be making it for them! When a HUMAN makes a sacrifice(organ donation, joining the army, etc...) they do it of their own accord and of their own free will based on what they believe to be for the greater good.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 12:44 PM

GliderFun, you suggest we "eliminate" the bad recessive genes from the lines by strict inbreeding, when it's already known that gliders have a low tolerance for inbreeding. You would have breeders intentionally breed healthy gliders into sick ones tobe destroyed? I have to agree, there is not a problem with the genetics unless a poor trait can be expressed, even a recessive gene will come out eventually and I rather doubt 200 gliders later.

Like Guerita said, the gliders do not have a choice, they do not choose their owners, they live with the decisions we make for them. And what about the sad, sickly joeys sure to be born from such pairings? Are you willing to eliminate them? Why bring such gliders into the world when there are so many in same or similar conditions not through poor breeding but neglect and abuse from their owners - which again, they did not get to choose. Today's breeders are stewards, they are watching the bloodlines and thinking about the next generation. Kitsune's breeder is probably well-known within the breeding community, and I'm sure all the breeders that would deal with him/her already have well thought out plans about whether they would buy joeys or acquire breeding stock etc.

No one is going to "start over" with wild-caught gliders. That's absurd. Australia and the US both have laws about import and export and their wildlife, and anyone that does go out to harvest wild-caught gliders is breaking many, many laws and killing a lot of animals in the process.
Posted By: SugaWhit

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 01:36 PM

Color is the Least of what establishing a DNA base line could do. Quite frankly, the fact that long term glider people would not want genetic backup for what is going on with their animals.
Who wants to pay extra to know the animal is clean? Me!!
For goodness sake, can you imagin why I'm frustrated?

If just a few of the bigger breeders gave samples (which could be taken like birds with a nail [censored], not put them under. Not sure how that was the only option. We use hair samples in the lab on large animals, gliders would need to do blood or figure out a way to do a hair pinch without making the gliders hate us.)
Honestly if everyone got together it wouldn't be that hard to get a collage or lab to run samples.
If I could for it for fun(take classes in biotech and run DNA samples, do nanodrop work etc.) and at my local collage while waiting for my nursing program to start up, I know that we could get enough together to start figuring things out.


Originally Posted By: Dancing
Ok, providing I could find a lab/vet willing to check the dna on a glider to tell if it carries the leu gene, how many are willing to PAY the cost for that testing in addition to the cost of the glider? I'm betting not many. Most would rather have the percents and make their decisions based on chance.

I know that before, a low percent leu het was only margianally more than a grey.

I remember...
Leus were $2000-2200
100% hets were $1500
66% hets were $1000
50% hets were about $500-700
25% hets were about $300
and lower than that were MAYBE $50 more than the cost of a grey IF charged any extra at all.

And out of those, MANY of the "12% hets" proved out.

(Oh and about this time, the first Creamino was put up for sale at the grand cost of $10,000!)

Posted By: SugaWhit

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 02:58 PM

Whoops was posting from the phone, sorry for the off topic. And I had to giggle that the word that means to quickly pierce the skin was [censored].

I'll start a new thread and stop preaching in here. I may be pulling quotes from here though, as there is much to be talked about!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 04:46 PM

I am absolutely disgusted at this thread as I am sure many others are as well. I wanted to bring up a few points that obviously have not been given enough thought.

Where are you getting the idea that most other species have been line bred to make them healthy? Some of the unhealthiest dog and cat breeds are from "pure" lines with inbreeding and line breeding and you cannot say that the breeders just did it wrong because there are MANY amazing dog breeders that really know their stuff who were key parts in creating those messed up "pure" lines. When you line breed or inbreed you are making the gene pool so shallow that you will change the genetic makeup PERMANENTLY. What you are proposing to do would alter the physical attributes of Gliders such as size as well as the health and genetic wellbeing and you would NEVER be able to bring them back to where they should be after that. I have noticed that the size of Sugar Gliders seems to be getting smaller in captivity which I am sure has a lot to do with poor breeding, especially in the early years, and unless we introduce completely new genes straight from the wild, we will never be able to fix that because the genetics has been eliminated from the captive population. By trying to weed out the bad genes you will have to weed out the good ones FIRST and you will not be able to breed back the healthy genes because they will have been eliminated or changed permanently. As has already been stated, if this was to go horribly wrong we cannot go get fresh blood from Australia because we can't import wild caught animals.

Also, are you going to police the breeders responsible for this little science experiment? There is NO way to monitor and police the people doing this. It could so easily end up in the wrong hands or a situation could arise where some of these gliders are "lost in the system" and we end up with extremely unhealthy animals in the general population.

There are very VERY few people in this community that have the knowledge of genetics to be able to do something like this correctly and I don't think any of us feel comfortable with somebody trying something like this who doesn't have a profound knowledge and training in genetics.

Also, you want to inbreed Gliders until you have all the unhealthy genes come to the surface, which is pointless because mutations are random and will occur even after the lines are clean and also because you would have to do genetic testing and blood testing etc in order to figure out what those genes were and who had them in the first place which is impossible. Then what are you going to do with the Gliders that you feel have gotten to the point of bringing all the bad DNA to the surface? If you breed them with an unrelated line to start your outcrossing then you will be infecting a line that previously did not contain all those problems and you will be right back where you started.

Also, you will never be able to get every single Glider breeder in the world to only breed clean lines and follow this "plan" so it would never be possible to completely purify the lines because some idiot somewhere is going to breed two Gliders that shouldn't be together and ruin all the work that has been done.

I think the moral of the story is be very careful what you wish for and be grateful for the positive steps that have started to be taken in the last few years because you cannot take it back once you mess it up.

You had an idea and that is wonderful, now continue learning and growing.
It takes more than a few web pages and a few dozen hours to understand genetics but it would take one catastrophic and irreversible mistake made over the course of many years to understand the consequences of medaling in genetics.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 05:25 PM

Originally Posted By: eden
I am absolutely disgusted at this thread as I am sure many others are as well.


Could I please just restate that the genetics garbage is NOT part of the original topic?

The direction the thread has taken ... genetics, inbreeding, a glider genome project, etc ... can all be discussed on some other thread. (for the record, I don't know why someone thinks identifying specific genes is even possible!)

THIS thread is about breeding Leu to Leu. I believe Beth's original question was something along the lines of... have the LEU lines been bred out far enough so that we can now begin breeding leu to leu safely?

Anyone care to comment on that?
Posted By: Guerita135

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 05:47 PM

Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
have the LEU lines been bred out far enough so that we can now begin breeding leu to leu safely?


Probably not. Although, to be honest, I'll bet if someone looked hard enough they could find 2 leus that, once paired together, would have better lineage then over half the leu het pairings out there. shakehead

However, I don't think that pairing leus is really about the lineage as much as it is about the possible repercussions of breeding 2 white gliders because then the genetics of their babies would be very limited. There'd only be the leu gene and no gray gene. I think that some breeders think that might be a possible invitation for health issues.

Pairing 2 66% leu hets it EXACTLY the same as pairing 2 leus, which is why I don't think it has much to do with lineage.

Glider genetics is still very new and until we're able to find out a bit more about the possible health risks of breeding to leus, then it might be best to hold off.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 07:46 PM

OK.....I am new to this site but after reading this whole thread and wondering if I would start bleeding from my eyes from plowing through all this. I HAVE to say that the AIDS, mice, people genetics info sounds like it all came from the personal diary of Josef Mengele!! Is this a joke?????

In my opinion no one has the right or brains to mess with mother nature.

I love Standard poodles but the genetic foolery that has been done to this once highly intellegent dog so that it can fit in your purse makes me sick! Now there are lots of small geneticially ruined, unhealthy, neurotic poodles. Animals that are so different from where they came from that merely looking at them wrong has them peeing on the floor. Are there some healthy smart small ones...yes, but at what price?
Posted By: LSardou

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 07:53 PM

This thread is taking it's course totally off the initial topic. Please, let's get this back to it's original discussion, as per Rule#3.

Originally Posted By: Rule#3
Please keep the posts closely related to the topic. If the topic sparks another thought for discussion, please open a new thread. Post messages in the most appropriate forum, please refrain from posting the same message in more than one forum. Only one of those messages will remain posted. Do not be offended if moderators move your thread to a forum that fits your topic. In a large forum like ours, this kind of “housekeeping” is necessary. It is not personal. Please do not use excessive CAPS or bold lettering. It makes your message very hard to read and implies you are shouting.


Thank you
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 08:07 PM

There is the belief that white animals are more frail or weaker. Why do we believe this? Because in most cases it's true. While everyone loves a white animal because of the rarity and beauty the fact is this animal would not survive long in the wild so therefore does not posess the genetic fortitude as their common color counterparts. That big of a target is going to be picked off fairly fast.

It is frowned on in most animals to bred two of this weaker trait, again I will use dogs as my example. Many breeders up into the 70s culled white german shepherds. They were not desirable..they had many health issues as well as temperment issues. I still would not completley trust a white shepherd around children. So erring on the side of caution based on information we already have is bad.... why????

(Sorry I hope this is more on topic).
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 08:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Fizzgig
There is the belief that white animals are more frail or weaker. Why do we believe this? Because in most cases it's true. While everyone loves a white animal because of the rarity and beauty the fact is this animal would not survive long in the wild so therefore does not posess the genetic fortitude as their common color counterparts. That big of a target is going to be picked off fairly fast.

It is frowned on in most animals to bred two of this weaker trait, again I will use dogs as my example. Many breeders up into the 70s culled white german sheperds. They were not desirable..they had many health issues as well as temperment issues. I still would not completley trust a white sheperd around children. So erring on the side of caution based on information we already have is bad.... why????


So are you saying leu to leu or white to white (other animals) breeding can also cause personality changes such as agresssion?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 08:15 PM

Originally Posted By: Gucciburger
Originally Posted By: Fizzgig
There is the belief that white animals are more frail or weaker. Why do we believe this? Because in most cases it's true. While everyone loves a white animal because of the rarity and beauty the fact is this animal would not survive long in the wild so therefore does not posess the genetic fortitude as their common color counterparts. That big of a target is going to be picked off fairly fast.

It is frowned on in most animals to bred two of this weaker trait, again I will use dogs as my example. Many breeders up into the 70s culled white german sheperds. They were not desirable..they had many health issues as well as temperment issues. I still would not completley trust a white sheperd around children. So erring on the side of caution based on information we already have is bad.... why????


So are you saying leu to leu or white to white (other animals) breeding can also cause personality changes such as agresssion?


I believe so..yes.
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 08:49 PM

THANK YOU, LINDA!!

I am about at my wit's end just trying to get this thread back on topic...I believe this is an important discussion and it has been thrown out the window in favor of a more controversial topic, which I am worried will put off the people whose opinions I want to hear about leu to leu breeding.

I believe Nicole said it the very best:

Quote:
Pairing 2 66% leu hets it EXACTLY the same as pairing 2 leus, which is why I don't think it has much to do with lineage.


As you all can see from my previous posts, I am not in favor of inbreeding or linebreeding unless a select few people are working carefully to help a new recessive color line to emerge its infancy without being ruined by ignorant people. What I AM for is talking about a WHITE ELEPHANT that has been in all of our rhetorical living rooms for quite some time. Everyone knows that breeding a leu to a leu is the same as breeding two 66% hets in some cases. To encourage people to breed their pairings out at least one generation so that a leu is only paired with a het or lesser het is WISE, I agree with this. BUT, there are pairings out there that were made purely out of a desire to produce leus for their monetary value.

Look at this pedigree.

This glider's lineage is considered acceptable? It was bred by a very popular breeder--the same one that bred my little boy, and the joey with the respiratory and heart problems...somehow this person seems to think that breeding a glider with an 11.7% COI is a better idea than pairing two (now easily locatable) unrelated leus. I've also noticed "holes" popping up in lineage lately, and it seems that when many of these "holes" are traced, it's found that bad patches in lineage were removed on purpose, rather than there being no lineage at all. The hard fact is that somehow, it's been beaten into everyone that breeding leu to leu is dangerous and taboo, with NO EVIDENCE yet provided of unhealthy joeys, but inbreeding to this degree is not. The only goal I had in starting this topic was to find solid proof that leu to leu causes defects--there is no proof. All of us can argue until we're blue in the face--but until there is some proof one way or the other it is all moot. It is a theory people have been threatened not to test. Threatened, did I say? Why yes, I did. When someone breeds leu to leu they are shamed and no one will do business with them anymore.

Karen, since I don't have PM privelidges and I can't message you privately, I will have to post this here--just because my thread went wildly off topic (and I'm sure you didn't mind at all) is not reason to move it to Breeding and Babies where it will eventually be forgotten and buried with other threads...this is a FACT or FICTION topic. It was approved for posting in the correct section and was hijacked, which was not my fault. Just because someone is uncomfortable with the topic doesn't provide a significant reason to "dispose" of it...if the Fact or Fiction forum is only for threads that don't involve breeding, I would like to suggest that be added to the stated rules. This thread is about health, and is trying to clarify whether a rumor is true or not. In my opinion it fits perfectly in Fact or Fiction.
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 09:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Fizzgig
Originally Posted By: Gucciburger
Originally Posted By: Fizzgig
There is the belief that white animals are more frail or weaker. Why do we believe this? Because in most cases it's true. While everyone loves a white animal because of the rarity and beauty the fact is this animal would not survive long in the wild so therefore does not posess the genetic fortitude as their common color counterparts. That big of a target is going to be picked off fairly fast.

It is frowned on in most animals to bred two of this weaker trait, again I will use dogs as my example. Many breeders up into the 70s culled white german sheperds. They were not desirable..they had many health issues as well as temperment issues. I still would not completley trust a white sheperd around children. So erring on the side of caution based on information we already have is bad.... why????


So are you saying leu to leu or white to white (other animals) breeding can also cause personality changes such as agresssion?


I believe so..yes.


Again, we are comparing sugar gliders to other animals--animals that are not even marsupials. Is it a blanket rule that white to white in other animals produces bad traits? No. It's something that may be a problem in some animals, but not others, and I doubt there are any examples of species of marsupials that have the same issues. It was always based on pure speculation, and now this speculation has turned into an "old wives tale" that everyone believes but doesn't know why. We have proof, 10 joeys born to a pair of leus, and there weren't any deformities, illnesses, behavioral problems, or problems with their offspring. I believe this is enough proof that it's not an issue to breed white to white in sugar gliders on a basic level. There could be problems that pop up in the future, but no more problems than breeding leu hets that carry the same genetic spread. If you all honestly believe that breeding leu to leu will cause defects, WHY ARE YOU BREEDING THEM AT ALL?? If you are producing faulty gliders, the production should be stopped. A glider that causes genetic defects to pass when paired with another of the same color is, in my opinion, a completely irresponsible animal to breed. The defects should be weeded out, not bred further in! But wait, there's been no evidence of these defects, so it must be ok to keep breeding for leu...we just won't breed that way *in case* it happens to bring out defects...at least then we can claim partial ignorance.

A side of the fence needs to be picked...either leus should not be bred at all, because they carry genetic defects, or they are safe to breed with one another, when the lineage matches, because they don't.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 09:29 PM

I completely agree that this topic and the information in it, whether it be on or off course, is very valuable and hope that it is not moved to a section where it will be forgotten.

I also agree that I do not believe that at this time there is sufficient evidence to claim that Leu to Leu is dangerous. I think as long as the animals come from healthy, unrelated lineages, that a Leu to Leu pairing is safe. HOWEVER, I would recommend that the offspring from a Leu to Leu pairing be outcrossed into another line or at least not be paired with another Leu simply because Leu is recessive and therefore it has a higher probability for random mutations of genetic flaws, especially when bred with another recessive, so I would recommend breeding the joeys of that pairing with an unrelated lineage that is not another Leu just to ensure that strong DNA is maintained and any genetic "gaps" are filled in before they present an issue.

I also don't agree that Leu x Leu is just as bad as het to het or Leu to het. Leus are recessive and this means that they likely have other recessive genes or gaps in the genetic material that are not desired. A het, simply by NOT being Leucistic, has a higher chance of having stronger DNA. Some issues will be passed on to Hets just as they can be passed on to the Leus in a lineage but in most cases, the homozygous recessive animal has a higher chance of weaker genetic material than a heterozygous animal.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 09:36 PM

The animals that don't have issues with being bred white to white are mostly where white occurs in large percentages or is the "normal" color.

I'm not saying it's written in stone. I have in fact myself questioned the ethics of so called "big, long term breeders" they can do something then dump on others for doing the same thing. Or in some cases as your example...worse.

I wouldn't breed leu to leu based on what I know of this recessive gene in others animals. Is it or will it be true with gliders only time will tell. I'm not sure 10 joeys are enough to know.

I do know this...if all gliders no matter the color were priced the same, (after all it isn't any more money or work to raise a different color) then this topic would have no merit anyway. Breeders will always strive for the designer colors because they can charge more. Some of them (not all) with total disregard of the animals longterm welfare.
Posted By: KarenE

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 09:37 PM

Originally Posted By: kitsune

Karen, since I don't have PM privelidges and I can't message you privately, I will have to post this here--just because my thread went wildly off topic (and I'm sure you didn't mind at all) is not reason to move it to Breeding and Babies where it will eventually be forgotten and buried with other threads...this is a FACT or FICTION topic. It was approved for posting in the correct section and was hijacked, which was not my fault. Just because someone is uncomfortable with the topic doesn't provide a significant reason to "dispose" of it...if the Fact or Fiction forum is only for threads that don't involve breeding, I would like to suggest that be added to the stated rules. This thread is about health, and is trying to clarify whether a rumor is true or not. In my opinion it fits perfectly in Fact or Fiction.


Beth, I am actually glad you brought this up and will post in that forum about this later.

First, I removed Eddie's sticky earlier as posts have not needed approval since right after the forum opened as there was a bug which caused problems so the forum has been open where anyone could post a topic without approval. If we felt the topic should be moved, we simply did so as with.

The intent of the Fact or Fiction forum as explained here is to discuss those topics that may or may not be viewed as Old Wives Tales now after many years. We do not feel that leu to leu breeding falls into that category, so I moved it.

Quote:
Karen, since I don't have PM privelidges and I can't message you privately, I will have to post this here
My e-mail address is in my profile should you need to contact me privately wink
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 09:42 PM

Originally Posted By: eden
A het, simply by NOT being Leucistic, has a higher chance of having stronger DNA. Some issues will be passed on to Hets just as they can be passed on to the Leus in a lineage but in most cases, the homozygous recessive animal has a higher chance of weaker genetic material than a heterozygous animal.


Totally agree.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 09:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Guerita135

However, I don't think that pairing leus is really about the lineage as much as it is about the possible repercussions of breeding 2 white gliders because then the genetics of their babies would be very limited. There'd only be the leu gene and no gray gene. I think that some breeders think that might be a possible invitation for health issues.

This is the only thing AGAINST it that anyone has said that made any sense to me at all.

Are there no other colors that have a double-recessive gene? Isn't that what albinos and creminos are? Of course THOSE lines are not bred out far enough yet.

As I understand what you are saying - the individual genetics (of the SPECIFIC glider, not of the color trait) might be weak because they'd have ONLY the leu genetics, whereas others would have a gray gene, even if it isn't shown?

But- I thought to express the leu color, it had to have the double recessive gene. So - any glider which has the leu coloring at all lacks the gray? Isn't that right? So - even breeding a leu with a 12% het - if the resulting joey is a leu, it lacks the gray gene, right?

Help me out here if I'm not understanding.
Posted By: kitsune

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/08/09 10:09 PM

That's right, Alden, but somehow when an albino and a leu are paired together, even though they are both recessive, only grey comes out. So, the grey gene still has to be in there somewhere. You would technically have a grey 100% leu het/100% albino het, which means the simple punnet square gets a lot more complicated. :/
Posted By: GliderFun

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/09/09 03:57 AM

I apologize Kitsune for taking your post off topic. It wasn't my intention!!!!

I also agree with you that it Belongs in FACT OR FICTION area!!

Hopefully through your post, no matter where it is, we will be able to determine whether breeding leu to leu IS A FACT OR FICTION since whether it's been fact or fiction has been the center of many debates.

I'll keep reading because I'm also really curious if people believe breeding leu to leu causing genetic defects is fact or fiction!

:-)
Posted By: Sheila

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/09/09 04:24 AM

Originally Posted By: Judie
Personly I think it is too soon to bred Leu to Leu.

Sammy and Ssleen bred together by ToandFro were Leus. Saleen herself a few years later became sickly and after an extended period of over a year died. Her life was short as was her breeding ability.


There is a correction here. Saleen was 2 years old when she died and she died of Gall bladder cancer. She did not have a long sickness, as a matter of fact, I did not know she was sick until the day she died. She had two five day old joeys the day she died. If she had been ill, I would have not allowed her to breed.

Judie, I think you are thinking of Jolene.

Originally Posted By: kitsune
It sounds to me like Saleen had a genetic problem that was passed down to her son, which can happen with any color variant.


Beth I guess you didn't know that she died of Cancer.
Posted By: Sheila

Re: Does breeding leu to leu cause genetic defects - 10/09/09 06:34 AM

As I have stated on several forums, no one is sure what the Leu to Leu breeding would do. Some people have suggested to keep the offspring throughout a life time and hold back several generations to find out if the gliders will be free from defects. For a midsize breeder this would be difficult because most people purchase a glider, breed it and hope that the sale of the offspring will help pay for it. I am not sure that the community would donate to such a cause of experimental breeding program. It is not like you are caring for sick gliders and are being donated funds like a rescue organization would have, but it does cost something to house and feed them over a period of years. Most of these types of breeding programs are done with donations or grants.
It would have to be a life long goal for a breeder to take this on.

I have also stated before that when moving my gliders to my glider room 6 years ago which is outside in my garage, the temps rose and created too much humidity in my glider room. Two gliders died while I was on vacation. A necropsy showed Clostridium due to the gliders being under stressed condition with the high humidity. The one female that died was a normal. She had a three day old joey that also died. Her immune system would have been compromised because of her having two newborn joeys born at this time. After returning from my vacation, the only gliders who tested positive for the Clostridium were one Albino female, one Leucistic male, one Leu het female, one mosaic female. and one Leu het male. There were 32 other normal gliders left in this room and none had the Clostridium. Only the Hets for Leus, Leus, Mosaic, and Albino had it. That is why I have never felt comfortable with the Leu to Leu breeding. The first and only time I did the Leu to Leu breeding was to prove a point to a breeder that the gene was not lethal. Once I proved that point, they were not allowed to breed together again.
There have been two more Leu lines discovered now, but I don't like the idea of purposefully experimenting on something to see if it is safe to do so.
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