GliderCENTRAL

Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"?

Posted By: VegemiteKid

Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/21/11 07:16 PM

I made a post in a subject the other day regarding Sugar Glider colors. Not sure how many people saw it, but I would like to discuss the topic further. It was in one of "Suggiegirl91"'s posts but was in no way shape or form intended to be an attack on her. She has two beautiful "grey" kids. I feel it was just the culmination of everything I had read since starting to become "glider aware" and learning as much as I can on this site.

Anway here was my post:


"Out of Pouch

Registered: 07/13/11
Posts: 53
Loc: Thailand

I am am a returned serviceman. I have spent significant time working in Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran and other countries in the Mid-East, Asia and South America. I have seen the best of humanity and the worst but with glider lines, I just don't get they hype.

To be honest, apart from the fact that some of these guys colors are a bit rarer.... what makes them any less special or deserving of someone to take care of them?

"For the good of the glider". I am not a biologist or a genealogist, but is breeding these lines "for the good of the glider" or to make us happier?

What's wrong with they way God, Allah, Buddha or any other higher power you believe in, made them any less special?

I don't know if it's me who just don't get it, but I have never seen a picture of a healthy, happy glider that didn't melt my hardened heart.

For the good of the glider, not just to satisfy our vanity for something considered, rarer, different, more valuable.

I would rather a happy, healthy, bonded glider who can't stand to be without me and me without him/her, than a single leu or any other type of glider worth a gazillion dollars.

"For the good of the glider", not us.
Is it just me?

Am I missing the point?"

This is my post, re posted for discussion in a more appropriate place, my apologies again "Suggiegirl91", never meant as a direct attack on you and nor do you deserve any attack. I just had feelings on colors and breeding that sort of culminated and coincided after hitting the "reply" button.

I am intrigued as to what the larger communities opinions are.

To paraphrase my initial post....

"Is it just me? Am I missing the point?"
Posted By: hwh4ev

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/21/11 09:36 PM

i have greys, bb's a mosaic and am getting a creamino to go with my mo. i breed and love the excitment of what color could possibly come out. my gliders are healthy and loved and taken out nightly. my grey and wfb just had their first
leu out of many grey and wfb joeys and i was like a kid at
chritmas. many of my joeys have been sold very cheaply because they were going to good, forever homes.
i dont think it is just for the money for alot of us breeders.

hope i answered your question.

regards,
nancy in detroit
Posted By: VegemiteKid

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/21/11 09:39 PM

Really? Is it that hard to say anything except "that's so great" or "I'm so happy for you" or "you're awesome"?

Is that how people clock up unbelievable post numbers?

I am trying to start a meaningful conversation. Not a flame session. 36 views and one single comment (that arrived while composing this) in over an hour? Not a comment... /hears crickets.

Mmmmh, I thought it was a decent topic for conversation. Maybe it is just me.
Posted By: GlidersNW

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/21/11 09:49 PM

I think the 'for the good of the glider' statement is meant to refer to the lineage. In a lot of cases there is a very small population of certain colors. This leads to COI numbers wich are coefficient of inbreeding numbers. Breeding for the good of the glider refers to getting those COI numbers as low as possible. AKA trying to get the furthest away from the same lines when breeding two gliders.

That's why you see people having things such as you can't breed my gliders with anything with a COI over 3% for instance. 3% being the number I chose since that is the goal point of most breeders at this time. Some colors have a higher COI because of the very limited numbers. For instance There are only three seperate Leucistic origin lines in the US. So these colors tend to run wiht a slightly higher COI than say a standard Grey.

Does this help?

Matt
Posted By: Faerie

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/21/11 09:52 PM

I am not a breeder, but I am having joeys to increase my colony. I have greys and white faces. I would love to have a leu because I think they are very pretty. But I love all my gliders, no matter what color they are.

There will always be a market for "special" colors, just because people like variety or for the people that think expensive = better. And there will always be the breeders out there that are in it for the money, and the rarer colors bring more money.

I am with you, all of the gliders I see melt my heart, no matter what color they are.
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/21/11 09:53 PM

Breeding should only be done to maintain and improve the species - regardless of what animal you are breeding.

To say we are breeding "for the good of the glider" can mean many things to different people. I feel that anytime we breed, we should be improving the genetics. In the beginning there was so much inbreeding to increase the population of sugar gliders and gliders of color, that we now need to look so closely to make sure we are at a minimum maintaining to bettering the genetics.

Breeding for color, well that just means that you'll some babies that aren't always grey.

Is it vanity? That's a matter of opinion. People have personal preferences to the color of gliders, some could care less about the color.

Breeding, when done responsibly, ensures that the species will continue, as well as the colors.

We haven't "created" these colors, it's already in their genes. We have to know what the genetics are and when paired appropriately (for some) will reproduce that color. God, Allah, Budha or whomever already set that into motion. We just need to responsibly continue that in captivity.
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/21/11 09:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Faerie
And there will always be the breeders out there that are in it for the money, and the rarer colors bring more money.


Some think this to be true. But let me tell you that it's not necessarily true with all breeders. I was breeding mosaics and couldn't sell them to save my life! I kept 2 of them (well maybe 3 with my new RT girl). I sold a RT mo for $100! Platinums, which is one of the most rare colors are not bringing anything close to what you would think. So rarer colors aren't bringing those historical high prices.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/21/11 10:02 PM

I have two breeding cages of gliders. One pair and one trio. Both of the males are Mosaics (father and son). One of the females (in the pair) is a WFB, the other two (in the trio) are Lions.

I breed first and foremost for TEMPERAMENT. Color variation is only a bonus for me. I prefer the mosaics simply because I just never know what coloring or markings they may have.

I have 27 gliders currently. My choice of color preference is, anything but all white. I LOVE the markings. To me it is the markings that are so interesting and unique. This leaves me not wanting Leus or Albinos at all (ok, don't want albinos because I personally believe they are freaks of nature in any species).

All of my gliders are treated equally. Each gets the same number and types of toys, same food, same treats, same time with ME. And over the years, I've had grey babies, wfb babies and mosaic babies. I love each and every single one of them simply because they are so incredibly cute!
Posted By: Faerie

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/21/11 10:03 PM

Originally Posted By: GliderNursery
Originally Posted By: Faerie
And there will always be the breeders out there that are in it for the money, and the rarer colors bring more money.


Some think this to be true. But let me tell you that it's not necessarily true with all breeders. I was breeding mosaics and couldn't sell them to save my life! I kept 2 of them (well maybe 3 with my new RT girl). I sold a RT mo for $100! Platinums, which is one of the most rare colors are not bringing anything close to what you would think. So rarer colors aren't bringing those historical high prices.


I definitely didn't mean all breeders, sorry if it came off that way.
Posted By: GlidersNW

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/21/11 10:15 PM

I forgot to mention the temperment. We handle our babies a lot. We also let other people handle them (make sure they have clean hands of course). This makes them (typically, as always there are exceptions) more easily handleable by the new owners. I've gotten a lot of compliments on how easy it was to bond to our glider's joeys. i think people around here are used to gliders that come from places where they are not handled much or at all in some cases. The worst thing I have seen are gliders in pet stores. They are unhappy. They are in a place where people are poking at them when it's bed time. Talking and making noise while they are trying to sleep, and EVERYTHING changes daily. It's never the same person twice. This does nothing to help the personality of the glider. I won't sell joeys to a store ever. It's a bad life. The other reason I won't send a joey to a store is that they don't care who takes the animal home. Improving the life of the Sugar glider has as much to do with where you send it as with what you do before it goes 'home.'
Posted By: Laci

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/21/11 10:22 PM

I personally own a black beauty, and a leu... I don't breed... my leu is neutered...

Wanting a certain coloration... I personally would love to have a mo and a cremino, and an albino... but money is tight and they are quite pricey, so I don't think I will ever have those colors...

Now WANTING the different colors... it's like wanting a different species of dog... I currently have a lab, but in the future I want a rot, or a german shepard... It's basically the same thing...

Really and truely, it's all about healthy sweet gliders, but if I could add a little variety to my life, I would... I KNOW those "standard" beauties will find homes because they sell for cheaper... but not everyone can afford the colors and they deserve homes too...
Posted By: Feather

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/21/11 10:36 PM

I like some of the colors. I am with Theresa on the all white gliders, I prefer the markings.

I have standard greys, white faced gliders and one mosaic. Even if I had the money I doubt I will ever get a cremino, just doesn't trip my trigger.

I would love to have a couple lineaged pair of standard grey that are not het for anything. Just plain grey.

For me it is greys, white faced and my little mo man Tucker.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 12:14 AM

Feather, if you want lined grey, we need to talk girlie tounge

I see very few people breed for vanity. It's not a get-rich-quick type of thing. Factor in vet checks for your breeding animals, USDA paperwork, neuters for gliders leaving your home, the time to draw up contracts, the time you spend socializing joeys, care, feeding, cage cleaning...it's a LOT of work and money. When the colors were new there was a lot of hype, but most of the people that can afford to pay that much for a glider already have. The economy is still on the rocks and there is a bigger supply of colors available, hence prices are dropping. Significantly. But I see nothing wrong with responsibly breeding gliders, regardless of their color.
Posted By: hpyhwn2003

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 12:34 AM

Heads up Jessica and Feather. Alden has my Bingo and Dani (Neeka) and they are with joeys. Lined gray as a mate to what Jessica has??? I know they aren't related so lineage would certainly work.

Now back to the regularly scheduled discussion...

Until I moved I had fully intended to eventually own at least one of every color glider. I already owned CGs, WFs, WF/WTs, MOs, and a very special Leu. So I was well on my way to accomplishing that goal. Good thing I've got a very accommodating and helpful husband. Why you ask? 1. Because I love variety, talk about eclectic just ask Jessica she's been to my home many times. LOL 2. Because I LOVE gliders no matter what size, shape, color, or temperment, I LOVE them all and would own as many as I could properly take care of. Again ask Jessica about that. OR most anyone that knows me here on GC. roflmao
Posted By: Marsupial_Mayhem

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 07:29 AM

As long as a breeder is breeding responsibly and making sure the COE's are as low as possible, then they are doing the lines good, no matter if the gliders they breed are standard gray or a Cremino.

We examine the lines of all the gliders we breed to make sure that we are not going to be introducing genetic defects by breeding too closely. It's very important for any breeder to do this.

Now, breeding without lineage at all is not in the best interest of the animals, and most would call it irresponsible breeding. You must understand that breeding in this way does promote possible genetic defects that can eventually kill a glider.

If one breeds, one must do so with care and respect of the animals. Getting colors is certainly a fringe benefit and I will not lie.........I love the colors. I have several myself, and I see nothing wrong with that. They are happy, healthy, and well bred. That's all we can ask for.
Posted By: GlidersNW

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 07:57 AM

I started out with a pair of standard greys...Now I own a variety of colors. I have standard greys, WFB, leucistic, Creme-ino, Mosaic, and one very cool True Platinum Mosaic Ringtail White face boy (see avatar). I have nice colors...but it's definitely not a get rich quick scheme. You're not going to make a living off gliders unless you are a mill. Most people who breed gliders do it to pay for the hobby and to spread the love. For the god of the gliders means breeding for low COI's and breeding non-sterile line. Most of all it's for the joy of the hobby. I do this from home..not as a living...but as something I really enjoy doing. I enjoy meeting the people that enjoy thier animals. Yes...some of these gliders are in the very expensive category. But that being said. It's expensive to do. The only reason i can do this is that I work from home. I am here all the time. It makes it so I can enjoy my hobby full time. I'm lucky in this way. That being said. I do this because I've lost the ability to do other things in life. So this is my escape. Doing something I enjoy.
Posted By: eshaw

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 09:54 AM

"Really? Is it that hard to say anything except "that's so great" or "I'm so happy for you" or "you're awesome"?

Is that how people clock up unbelievable post numbers?"

Yes. My personal favorite is blah, blah, blah, someone will be along in a while who can answer this! ha ha ha You gotta love it.

Yours is a loaded question and you're going to get lots of different answers on it. To tell you the truth it sounds a lot like something I'd ask. The way I see it is this. There isn't anything wrong with breeders breeding responsibly, for colors or standards. Variety, not just to satisfy our vanity, for something considered, rarer, different or more valuable isn't always the case. It depends whom you talk to. Some people are totally in it for these reasons. You prefer the dominant coloration (standard) and there isn't anything wrong with that but some people such as myself like the colorations while others prefer the variety mosaics present, i.e. no two are alike. Did that answer your querry?
Posted By: VegemiteKid

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 10:27 AM

Nothing wrong with a loaded question. wink Was after an interesting discussion.

I would be interested in what the percentages of these specific colorings and patterns are in wild populations. Given the limited base population that the pet populations have grown from, is it healthy to be specifically breeding these lines? I don't know. I am not an expert and don't claim to be.

Cat and dog breeds have been bred for hundreds of years around the world. Gliders, outside of wild populations, a couple of decades? I worry that breeding to satisfy our human desire for something "rarer" worries me that this may be at the expense of healthy, happy glider...regardless of good intentions of well meaning breeders.

It's just a nagging concern of mine. I do worry a lot more about the breeding practices of mill breeders in Thailand more though than breeding in the US. I think there is a bit more guesswork done here. This is through no fault of their own, but that of a education system that many drop out of young to support their families. I would hazard a guess that many/most breeders in Thailand have only a basic grasp of genealogy.

Anyway, as I said earlier, my intent is an interesting conversation.
Posted By: VegemiteKid

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 10:31 AM

Originally Posted By: eshaw

Is that how people clock up unbelievable post numbers?"

Yes. My personal favorite is blah, blah, blah, someone will be along in a while who can answer this! ha ha ha You gotta love it.


Yeah, I totally agree. Not to say there are not people/mods here who put a lot of time and thought into each of their posts and clock up the big numbers. My hat off to them, cause I personalty appreciate the effort. Especially being a newbie like myself.

Cheers.
Posted By: GlidersNW

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 11:02 AM

You can't calculate the COI of a wild animal. You have no history on it. It takes 5 or so levels of breeding before we consider a glider to have a proper lineage that can be calculated. This makes the COI numbers more accurate. In the wild there is no way to tell if the animal has one seperation or ten. You can do a DNAtest to tell if they are reated...but I'm not sure this will accureately tel you the COI. I think you have to chart it. Although...now that I am thinking about it I may have this wrong. Can anyone correct me?

Thanks.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 02:48 PM



Shelly, I have looked at your site a lot. I am in love with your Maddie; she is absolutely gorgeous! I would love to see Simon as well. Maddie just couldn't be any prettier!
Posted By: Jos

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 02:56 PM

I'll be the first to say that I'm a vain person, however my vanity doesn't extend to other living creatures, especially my pets. I love the colors because they are not what one normally sees. I find them interesting and inspiring, something different.

But I'm also well known in my own family for eccentric behaviour and owning animals that others consider dangerous or exotic, for example my wolfdog Ivory.

I don't find breeding for color a vanity thing, the breeders I've seen who do this make sure to breed their lines carefully, making COI's lower and lower while preserving the color which is, in my humble opinion, for the good of the glider. The lower we can get the COIs in colored lines, the better every glider from those lines in the future will be. There is no way that could be considered mere vanity.

You're bound to get bad apples in the barrel. That's a fact of life, however as long as the breeders are doing it correctly and for a purpose, there is no vanity involved.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 03:14 PM

Quote:
"Really? Is it that hard to say anything except "that's so great" or "I'm so happy for you" or "you're awesome"?

Is that how people clock up unbelievable post numbers?"

Yes. My personal favorite is blah, blah, blah, someone will be along in a while who can answer this! ha ha ha You gotta love it.



As a person with an unbelievable post count, I have to comment on this. Many of the posts on there came from when I was a mod. FEW of my posts have been "fluff" post, though there are some. And I try hard not to post just to be argumentative or rude.

And posting telling someone "blah, blah, blah, someone will be along in a while who can answer this!" is telling that person that "I don't have the answer but you are not being ignored." And while it may annoy some people, to that person asking the question, it lets them know that at least one person is paying attention. Often those responses follow questions from fairly new owners. It is called being polite to our new members or guests.


Also...those that have been here a while know those post counts mean nothing. They are only an indicator of how much someone is on the board, not what they may or may not know about gliders.
Posted By: SugarGliderLove

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 04:22 PM

I must say I am with VegemiteKid on this. I don't see why people breed for one color. I may be hated for saying this Whats so special about different colors. I can careless what color my gliders are. All 6 of my gliders are black beauty's when I got gizmo,Prince, & Lilly I didn't know they were BB and when I found out I really didn't care. I don't really care that cricket, Dweezil,moon unit or Zoey are BB. What I care about is that they are well taken care of. At time I feel that people breed gliders for the money and not for the good of the glider. As far as linage is concerned to me I don't really care that 3 out of 6 don't have linage. I consider cricket, Dweezil,& moon unit to have linage since I know who their parents are. crickets parents are Lilly & Prince and Dweezil & Moon Unit's parents are Gizmo & Prince. some people may say that those three don't got linage and that I should get Prince neutered since I don't know who his parents were or anything. Its their opinion and I really don't care what they think to be honest.
Posted By: Jos

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 04:37 PM

People breed certain colors because the ARE naturally occuring colors, just like a bay or palamino are naturally occuring colors in horses. Breeding for color just ensures that the colors don't die out and disappear completely. You won't always get a Leu or a Creamino or a Plat or a Lion, in fact many of your babies will likely be grays or WF.

To counter, Dpinkie, I think breeding and not caring if you don't have lineage is NOT for the good of the glider because you don't KNOW what you're introducing to your lines. I have lineage for all my babies, they're all registered and traced... I don't breed because I don't WANT to. Rock and Jazz have proven they can make beautiful WF babies, both are attentive, loving parents, and I'm sure others would love babies from them because of their mild tempers and gentle natures. But I don't breed them because I don't know enough to be a breeder. If I did it wouldn't be for the good of the glider, it would be me being selfish just so I can have joeys. So my boys are neutered.

People here won't hate you for your opinion, because everyone is entitled to their opinion. Just know that how you respond is just as important as what you say. Saying "you don't care what others think" makes people wonder why you bothered to say it at all.

As I said before. I love colored lines. I think each one is beautiful. And maybe someday I'll have some of each color to love on as pets. Just know that saying "I know that people think it's wrong and I don't care what they say" isn't kind seeing as everyone who says "if you don't have lineage you shouldn't breed" Is saying so for the good of all gliders. If you don't care what they say, then don't care, but also don't draw attention to it. Just seems the right thing to do imo.
Posted By: AliceDoll

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 04:38 PM

frown Does it make me a bad person, because my first glider is going to be a leu -- over another color like grey?

I think at the end of the day: All gliders are beautiful and deserved to be loved. You're right, the colors don't really matter in the end -- however!

We, as humans, just can't help who we fall in love with first.

and... I'm not a breeder (I never plan to be), but from the few wonderful ones I've talked to -- I'm pretty sure a lot more goes into the pricing than just the color. The amount of time and dedication it takes is incredible -- you really have to know what you're doing when dealing with genetics.
Posted By: hwh4ev

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 04:40 PM

vegemitekid,
we do have some gliders that came in from east asia, i know alot of breeders have bought these gliders from s&s exotics(a co. that went to that country to bring them here to the states) to put new blood in our lines. the gliders are called caramels and are a little bigger than our gliders and are supposed to have a nice temperment.

i imagine most of us want new blood for our glider lines and i believe there will be some more coming over.

regards,
nancy in detroit
Posted By: SugarGliderLove

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 04:46 PM

If I choose not to neuter my glider I dont have to. And in response to jos comment people do hate other for what they think trust me i know I have been a target of a few attacks. and if I want to say I dont care what others think I can and I can voice my opinion if I want to no one can tell me other wise.
Posted By: hwh4ev

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 04:54 PM

for those that dont give a hoot abt. colors, thats great.
i love all colors and would love to have each color, i do
breed for different colors and am a very small breeder so if anyone thinks we small breeders make any money, you are
very much mistaken. like somebody stated-it is to keep
up the enrichment of the gliders we do have to keep them happy and healthy. i like variety/color in my life and in my pets.

dpinkie03- you state you know the parents of your joeys and that is enough for you? i hope you keep all of your joeys and do not put them out to sell to the public to also be bred some more as you can have very close relatives in the background which can produce joeys with the wiggle syndrom, missing limbs, etc. this has happend and will continue to happen with breeders with your attitude. good lineage is for the good of the glider, to prevent heartbreaking joeys down the line. i would hope you would read a little more abt. how important lineages are. you seem
to have a very poor attitude abt. breeding responsibilitys.

regards,
nancy in detroit
Posted By: hwh4ev

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 04:56 PM

alicedoll,
no, it doesnt make you a bad person for getting a leu, we all have our own tastes.
congratulations, i think the leus are adorable.

regards,
nancy in detroit
Posted By: VegemiteKid

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 04:56 PM

Now this is a discussion. I apolgise if some of the long term members with big tread posts took offense at anything said here.

That was not intended. I was more disappointed that after my initial re-post, that there had been 36 views of a topic that I thought was worthy of a decent conversation. Because people couldn't do a simple reply of "How cute" or "big hugz" or "lol" replies or any other such fluff which, however nice it is, just fills space. I am looking for flame/troll free conversation about important topics.

My main point, is that I have never seen a glider who isn't cute or gorgeous in their own way. I just don't understand why its felt necessary to breed for specific colors when every glider is gorgeous. They don't care what color they are, why should we? What's wrong with naturally occurring colors? Sure, rare lines pop up in the natural scheme of things but why are we concentrating on these lines?

As I said this post is for discussion. Not flaming or trolling.
Posted By: AliceDoll

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 05:06 PM

Originally Posted By: hwh4ev
alicedoll,
no, it doesnt make you a bad person for getting a leu, we all have our own tastes.
congratulations, i think the leus are adorable.

regards,
nancy in detroit


Thankyou Nancy! I feel in love with her before I even have had the chance to meet her! I find it funny how she's already becoming one of the centers of my entire world XD She's not even here yet! haha
Posted By: AliceDoll

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 05:20 PM

Originally Posted By: VegemiteKid


My main point, is that I have never seen a glider who isn't cute or gorgeous in their own way.


Of course! This is such a true statement! ALL gliders are special and beautiful!


Originally Posted By: VegemiteKid
What's wrong with naturally occurring colors? Sure, rare lines pop up in the natural scheme of things but why are we concentrating on these lines?


Have you ever studied genetics by any chance? No matter the animal/plant/etc -- the dominant genes are going to show up first. All gliders would be grey/black -- since that is the dominant trait. In order to have variety in color, you're going to have to pair recessive genes with recessive genes. Which is where most breeders -- experienced ones -- are coming in to help.

Originally Posted By: VegemiteKid
As I said this post is for discussion. Not flaming or trolling.


I haven't seen any Flaming or Trolling in this thread at all! Everyone has been, actually, nice -- stating their own opinions with little to no snark what-so-ever! thumb

I have to ask though, did you have a bad experience with a breeder?? Not all breeders are money-grubbers. smile



Posted By: SugarGliderLove

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 05:29 PM

you know 7 years ago or so people didnt care about linage. I am content with my gliders not having linage. and if my gliders breed so be it. because of people like you hwh4ev is why I have considered leaving this site.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 05:32 PM

Originally Posted By: dpinkie03
you know 7 years ago or so people didnt care about linage.


This is only partially true. But since then, we have learned and have seen first hand what inbreeding can do (wiggle babies). We as a whole have progressed and are more interested in doing everything we can to better the health of the gliders. We have become less selfish in our breeding choices.

It would be a shame to go backwards now.
Posted By: hwh4ev

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 06:04 PM

dpinkie03,
dont leave because of people like me trying to help you
understand the importance of lineage.
you made your thougts known and because you didnt like my
answer you want to leave? maybe you should just do a little more investigative work here on gc and stick
around. this is a great forum to learn abt. important
info regarding breeding.

regards,
nancy in detroit
Posted By: SugarGliderLove

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 06:07 PM

Its not just because of you. and if i choose to leave its cause I want to and not cause of people! and Its cause I am tried of being attacked when ever I say anything on here.
Posted By: AliceDoll

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 06:21 PM

Originally Posted By: dpinkie03
Its not just because of you. and if i choose to leave its cause I want to and not cause of people! and Its cause I am tried of being attacked when ever I say anything on here.


:/ I don't see how you're being attacked. Honestly --
Posted By: Dee

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 06:21 PM

Ok I am posting here knowing full well I may end up trashed here... But I am honest (not saying others aren't honest).

When I got my first pair of giders I could not afford to get the colors due to expense. Trust me I loved the color of the Mo's. My first pair I paid a reasonable price and recieve a classic and WT, they wer from out of state. One of them was not a canidate for breeding so I got a beautiful boy that also had issues and neutered him, he was in state. They are now a happy loved non breeding trio. Since I don't know wether the issues are genetic for sure or if it was enviromental I will not breed these guys. I don't want to risk continuing health issues, some people would agree with this line of thinking.

My second pair of gliders were incredibly pretty that I got a screaming deal on, they came from out of state. I am extremely excited at the possiblities of what could come from them depending on the male I add with them.

I love all my gliders and I become emotionally attached to each and everyone of them, even ones that I don't have yet. I have not bred yet but I am looking forward to breeding I am excited about the possiblities of colors and personalities.

With that said I also am looking at this as a hobby I love my gliders but yeah if I can make a little money also to help support my "hobby" I don't see anything wrong with that. These babies are addicting not just the colors but wanting to give them new toys cage sets and such. If the gliders can help pay for themselves I think that is a great thing. If they can't that is ok too because I love them!

Also the area I live in is not known for breeders or even glider owners. I think with having responsible breeders in the area, no matter what the color it will only help the gliders. Breeders are usually the ones that reach out or are contacted for information for new owners. There are people out there that don't want to pay shipping cost to here. So you see on craig lists little babies cheap and these new owners have no idea what they are getting into. We may see gliders on CL once a month or so and I have only seen one person on there that I believe may be responsible all the others are rescues and I mean serious rescues. So having breeders up here that have all colors I believe would be a good thing and less shipping all over the US.
Posted By: Sheila

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 06:26 PM

I would say it is important to look at the heart of the breeder. I was one of the first colored breeders in the USA. I am not going to boast about what I have done here as far as loving my animals and providing good homes for them, but I know that my heart is pure when it comes to gliders. When I recognize someone with a sincere heart, they will get my babies for free. I think colored breeders are categorized as being greedy. I do believe some breeders only want beautiful colored gliders for show on their websites. I believe that when they go to events with other glider owners they only bring with them their "prettiest" gliders to show off. What I intended to do from the beginning was to bring in from Canada, unusual colors and breed them safely to preserve the line. I cannot control where people's hearts are. People that I sold to in the beginning, I might refuse to let them have one of my babies now because I see how the sale of their joeys is their livelyhood. I see that they do not use good business ethics when it comes to selling their gliders, or how they trample over other breeders to get the sale. I don't believe in making glider sales a business. If it is a hobby, make sure it stays that way. When making money becomes more important than gliders, you should not be selling them. There are many who use the sale of their gliders to pay electric bills and house payments. I don't believe in that because if sales suffer, quess what, the glider suffers as well. I might sound bitter about this and I guess you can say that I am. I have been around a long time and have seen what has happened to this community and it saddens me greatly. cry
Posted By: Jos

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 06:41 PM

Dpinkie, I hate to think that anyone here is coming across as attacking. You stated your thoughts, I stated mine, just as Nancy stated hers. Just because they don't meet doesn't mean you're being attacked, merely that we disagree.

I know where all my animals come from. I can trace my pomeranian's lines for 10 generations, I know where he came from and I'm glad I do. It helps me see what defects he's prone for. If I didn't know, how would I know if his parents had displaced Knees? or if his grandfather had respitory problems. I wouldn't.

I learned about the Wiggle Babies by accident, and it's not knowning or caring who was related to who that caused such a problem in these sweet fuzzbutts. I reccommend looking up the videos on them, it truely is sad that these gliders have a neurological problem because of human selfishness when it comes to breeding and keeping track of what you breed. We're just trying to show you *why* we believe your male should be neutered, not force you off the board.

This is a place for learning and growing as glider slaves, I wouldn't have known about a lot of stuff, diet especially, if I hadn't come here, and I made mistakes but I took even the most brunt and brutally honest opinions for what they are, information that I should take heed of. That's what people here try to do, help you by being completely honest.
Posted By: SugarGliderLove

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 06:51 PM

I see why people think I should get him neutered and I dont want to get him neutered and i dont have to and i have my reasons why i dont want to and i dont have to prove my reason why. Alot of you guys dont know the emails and comment I have gotten on my personal email and on my website. with that being said I would like to not be mentioned on this topic anymore and if you got anything to say to me pm me and i might answer you.
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 07:12 PM

Originally Posted By: VegemiteKid
My main point, is that I have never seen a glider who isn't cute or gorgeous in their own way. I just don't understand why its felt necessary to breed for specific colors when every glider is gorgeous. They don't care what color they are, why should we? What's wrong with naturally occurring colors? Sure, rare lines pop up in the natural scheme of things but why are we concentrating on these lines?


First, consider that in the wild, a leucistic glider probably wouldn't survive as long as a grey glider. It would be a predatorial target! That's why I think that there are not many gliders of color in the wild.

With that being said, by us putting two gliders together, we haven't created these colors. The genetics were already there.

Why do we do it? The same reason some would select a bull dog while I prefer border collies. They're both dogs, so what's the difference? The difference is personal preference.

And quite honestly, because people want them. Regardless of the price we as breeders charge, it's a matter of supply and demand. As long as there is a desire for a leu, plat, or mo, there will be breeders for them.

Responsible breeding is IMO the only way to breed. Not doing so will result in problems with future offspring, and very likely will make it difficult to find homes for joeys.

New blood is needed to continue good genetics. If new blood does not get introduced into a breeding program, you eventually get a genetic circle. Not good. So a breeder needs to know and understand a lot before they take on that responsiblity.

Further, the breeder needs to be able to explain everything to the new owners of their joeys. It's not enough that you are being a responsible breeder. You have to educate and share that knowledge. Otherwise, your near genetically perfect joey could be paired with its aunt/uncle/cousin!

Determining Genetic Compatibility in Gliders
Posted By: KarenE

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 08:40 PM

This will be the only Rule 4 Warning posted in this thread. Some of you seen to have forgotten the rules you agreed to when you registered and checked that box.

If you don't like the way our board is run, the advice you are given when you ask or the time it takes for your post to be answered, you are free to find another more suitable forum.

Rule 4. GliderCENTRAL is a family oriented "G" rated board. Be polite, courteous and respectful to other board members at all times. This means illegal substances, illegal activities, flaming, sexually explicit subjects, cursing, spamming, harassing, policing, diet bashing, and abusive or negative personal posts are not allowed. Posts and sometimes entire topics that contain such content will be removed, and the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators. Abuse, flaming or inappropriate comments directed toward GliderCENTRAL, its Moderators and Administrators, or failure to comply with the direction of a Moderator or Administrator, the poster(s) may be warned, suspended or banned at the discretion of the board administrators. Please keep any personal matters off the board. Take it to email or pm. Please keep in mind that board rules do apply when using the PM feature. Since we are a G rated board, the decision has been made not to allow any web blog links like below due to non G rated material on them.
Posted By: Biscuit

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 09:22 PM

Shelly - I was thinking the same thing... Some people prefer black labs while others prefer yellow labs. right?
Posted By: MissSarah

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider - 07/22/11 10:07 PM

When I first read this, I took the "dog" approach as well. smile Its all a matter of what appeals to you personally. I have standard grays and one WF. Do I love any more than the other because of their outward appearance? No ma'am/sir.

Do I love one a bit more than the other because of their personalities...maaaaaaybe. wink

I can't lie though. I'd really like to have a Leu or a Mo to (non-breeding) pair with my little WF girl. But if a very sweet, laid back gray came along, I'd accept him or her into my tribe with open arms and an open heart.

I do think people have the right to choose what suits them as far as coloring goes. If you have the money for it, more power to you.
Posted By: GlidersNW

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 10:39 PM

Breeding for a specific color doesn't determine how 'good' a breeder is. That's like saying a person with ten goldfish in their hundred gallon tank is better for having plain fish than someone that has a very colorful Saltwater tan with a Blue hippo tang, a False percula clownfish, two damsels, a flashing tilefish, and a goby or two. The person with the salt tank likes the vari9ety anc colors...it's all just preference. Don't get hung up on someone else's choice. It's their choice. If you want standard greys ro black beuties...rock them. I have the standard greys. I'm not particularly fond of the look of the BB's. Not saying I'd never own one. Depends on the personality. But I love the Leu's. It's just my preference. I have a True platinum...he was far more expensive than my Leu's are. My favorite color is Leucistic. They are just cute to me. I love Angelo do death. i just really like the Leu look. Like a fluffy black eyed marshmallow...and who doesn't likea good marshmallow???

i don't think it's anything to get upset about...it's just the choice they make...like the dog thing...or buying a car...I may like a VW...you may like a Honda...neither choice is worth freakin out about...

TO EACH HIS/HER OWN! =0)

Frankly it would be a lot more boring if everyone had the same thing...wouldn't it?
Posted By: Feather

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 10:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Sheila
I would say it is important to look at the heart of the breeder. I was one of the first colored breeders in the USA. I am not going to boast about what I have done here as far as loving my animals and providing good homes for them, but I know that my heart is pure when it comes to gliders. When I recognize someone with a sincere heart, they will get my babies for free. I think colored breeders are categorized as being greedy. I do believe some breeders only want beautiful colored gliders for show on their websites. I believe that when they go to events with other glider owners they only bring with them their "prettiest" gliders to show off. What I intended to do from the beginning was to bring in from Canada, unusual colors and breed them safely to preserve the line. I cannot control where people's hearts are. People that I sold to in the beginning, I might refuse to let them have one of my babies now because I see how the sale of their joeys is their livelyhood. I see that they do not use good business ethics when it comes to selling their gliders, or how they trample over other breeders to get the sale. I don't believe in making glider sales a business. If it is a hobby, make sure it stays that way. When making money becomes more important than gliders, you should not be selling them. There are many who use the sale of their gliders to pay electric bills and house payments. I don't believe in that because if sales suffer, quess what, the glider suffers as well. I might sound bitter about this and I guess you can say that I am. I have been around a long time and have seen what has happened to this community and it saddens me greatly. cry


If the event is far from home I bring all 15 of the gliders at my house and I will say this the first glider that I bring out of the bonding pouch to show off is my beautiful Gizmo. Gizmo is the glider that started it all for me and until I went to my first SGGA I thought she was just your standard grey glider. Gizmo is a BB, but that doesn't matter to me, she is my first love and she is the first glider I show to people. Then I show off my first glider with lineage and her family. Then it is the new man in my life, Tucker, thank you Karin I love this little man. If I have Tank along he is next as he is my biggest glider. I love my gliders as individuals first. When I get home from work and put everyone into their bonding pouches for some bonding time I always take them out of their cages in the same order. Gizmo and Widget, then Jadzia, Worf and their joeys and then Tucker and soon to join him T'Pol when she is old enough to join him.

Like any breed of animal people tend to find something in the breed they want to breed for. Such as people breeding for black Arabians or people breeding for solid vs. broken pattern guinea pigs. It is a persons preference to breed Mosaics or Creminos.

I breed horses and the only color I will not breed to or for is chestnut or sorrel. For me my favorite color is bay. I do own black, palomino and bay right now. Of the mares we breed we are hoping for buckskin with two of the mares.

Color is just a persons preference for me it is:

A healthy foal or joey.

If I can get fussy after that I would like fillies or female joeys, then color-give me buckskin, bay or palomino.

A healthy foal or joey is always my first goal.
Posted By: wildlifeangel

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider - 07/22/11 10:59 PM

[i][/i]Some phenomenal points have been brought up, I just wanted to add a COI point that I discovered on cats. My friend has a Maine Coon and her COI is 2.3 we can look at the acceptable cats and dogs and what they have learned from lineage and inbreeding to see what the consequences are as we'll as what COIs are acceptable in those species.

I breed colors... but I care for each one as much as the rest... colors are beautiful and I make sure the take care with their genetics.

We have learned a LOT from the breeding that has been done... and we have been able to identify problems that arise from inbreeding (sterility, wiggle, deformities) and we can breed to prevent these things from happening.

And as far as money... I am WAY under on my gliders... and while I hope that my gliders will pay for themselves...eventually. I don't count on the sales of my gliders to pay anything because we have enough other income that gliders are a bonus, not a necessary income. If I depended on the income, I would be afraid of not paying for food or vet bills....

Between food, supplies, and vet bills... taking excellent care of gliders is NOT cheap.
Posted By: Laci

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 11:31 PM

Originally Posted By: dpinkie03
you know 7 years ago or so people didnt care about linage.



I've had gliders for 9 years now, and 7 years ago, people were still concerned about linage... we still bought from pet stores occasionally, but still cared... I had to go through genetics testing when I found out my son was going to be born with Spina Bifida... So I always care about the genetics issues...

Matter of fact, I know a girl who married someone who turned out to be a cousin a few times renewed... they have three little girls... all three have tons of health issues... they're STILL trying for a boy...

Why would any person submit any baby through that type of torture is something I will never be able to understand... Therefore I could not, by good concience, allow any of my animals go through that...
Posted By: Laci

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/22/11 11:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Sheila
I would say it is important to look at the heart of the breeder. I am not going to boast about what I have done here as far as loving my animals and providing good homes for them, but I know that my heart is pure when it comes to gliders. When I recognize someone with a sincere heart, they will get my babies for free.



Sheila, you've always been amazing... I'm sorry to see people are abusing their babies... I understand people trying to make money to supply for their babies by selling the joeys... but to use it as like a main business is crazy... Any animal should first and foremost be a pet... Asking money for a baby really just insures the baby is going to a proper house that will care for it... What gets me is people asking blatantly for free hand outs... It's been happening a little at my house lately, and I'm tired... If you're going to be responsible for another life, you need to be able to afford a roof over their head, and food in their tummies regardless if they can make you money or not...

I remember when the asking price for greys was like 150, and wf 500!!!! Like I said in my first post... it's about preference... all babies do get loved, just some people prefer one thing over the other... I prefer vanilla ice cream over chocolate, so I buy the vanilla and let someone else purchase the chocolate!
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/23/11 02:40 AM

Originally Posted By: JessieR
Shelly, I have looked at your site a lot. I am in love with your Maddie; she is absolutely gorgeous! I would love to see Simon as well. Maddie just couldn't be any prettier!


thanks Look at their new baby girl. heart

Posted By: dizzyblue

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/23/11 03:00 AM

I haven't read everything yet.
But here's my cent and a half
I believe there's lots of good to come from breeding!
Great temperaments and good looks.
And you can also breed out sickness.
I think the whole lineage thing is wonderful!!!! I think its great how even newbies are asking about lineage.

dpinkie03--- frown
But power to you for sticking to your opinions. And I agree with you in that most of the normal breeders are just breeding for a hobby or fun. Not to really rule out diseases or anything that might help the glider population.

P.S. Getting my lue baby This coming Thursday Woot woot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Dee

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/23/11 04:17 AM

And I agree with you in that most of the normal breeders are just breeding for a hobby or fun. Not to really rule out diseases or anything that might help the glider population.

P.S. Getting my lue baby This coming Thursday Woot woot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

I have to disagree with this statement. I believe the majority of the people that are informed and make the decision to breed do very much care about the gliders health and such. That is why people care about COI's linage, sterile lines etc. For most it isn't a knee jerk reaction to decide to breed.

Congrats on your Lue!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/23/11 06:40 AM

This might not be my place since I dont have a sugar glider yet but here I go.

I think the lineage and COIs are indeed important. I plan to do the breeding not for the money but for the breeding itself. It will be a hobby but I am going to be smart about it by caring for the health more than the fun.

Its like off roading in a atv. Its fun to drive through the desert but I will be cautions when I ride or I just might crash into a cacti or hit a hole that can make me fly.
Posted By: JillMarie

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/23/11 10:31 AM

I really do try to stay out of breeding discussions, but felt I needed to comment on this one.

There is always a risk to line breeding. THIS IS FACT. Keeping track of who is related to who is extremely important to avoid any possibility of defects. Breeding without lineage is risky, and may not show up in the first set of babies, but may show up in THEIR babies, or their babies' babies. Especially if their babies are allowed to breed to other babies who dont have lineage and you have no idea who they are related to. This is where the biggest risk comes in.

I love all gliders. Dont matter the color. I do think it is more important to breed for health and intelligence.

When I first got gliders I had every intention of breeding. And 3 years later I even have a person who is willing to fund a breeding "business" if I so desired, so money is no issue. But I have to be honest. Once I had gliders for a while, and saw the depth of their personalities, I just cant do it. I cannot subject another glider to living in a cage.

Many on here know of the relationship I have with my Arwen. she is extraordinary as far as I am concerned. I dread the day that God calls her home, and greatly desire to find her a "worthy mate" just so I would have her offspring to console me when she is gone. I also feel that letting her personality and intelligence die with her is a great diservice to the glider population.

But would adding her "genes" into the glider population be a good or bad move since the only lineage I have on her is I know her mommy and daddy (Gizmo and Kizmit) and thats it.

As for breeding for color, is it vanity or not? Yes it is. Prefence in this case is similar to vanity in my opinion. I want a purple corvette. Why? I like purple. I like corvettes. That is a prefernce. Then when I say, a purple corevette would look cool, does that become vanity? In a way it does. Even if it is vane for YOUSELF ( kind of like wearing fancy undergarments that no one sees)

What color glider would I buy for Arwen? So far I have only seen one I wanted for her, and the desire was three-fold: First was the breeder he was born to, second was his eyes and the reaction in my heart when I looked at him, third and least important was his coloring. he was strikingly beaurtiful. I will say though, that if I see a picture of an available joey, no matter his color, if I feel that tug on my heart then I would consider getting him. Why didnt I buy that one? Because of my desire to NOT condemning them to live in a cage was greater than my desire to own and breed him. (thats love for you)

Breeding good for us or good for the glider? Is a question each of us need to answer for ourselves based on our motivation.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/23/11 10:59 AM

I feel totally ignorant asking this question and if it's in the wrong place, please feel free to place it properly, moderators.

Where can I find out about the different colours of gliders? And what does COI mean? And why does everyone else know and I don't?

I got my gliders from a friend. Two are mother and daughter and are standard grays...or is it greys? The third is a blond faced white. I have no idea what lions, mosaics, leus, etc. are.

I will tell you though that as a relatively new owner, I think that all sugar gliders are beautiful, no matter what colour they are. My husband and son think I have lost my mind but I can't help it. I am a fully fledged member of the glider cult and proud of it!
Posted By: holelottaRosie

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/23/11 11:10 AM

Jill I sure do love to read your posts...I myself have often thought about your comment "condemning them to live in a cage". And I have often wondered if it really does bother them or not...is most of the population in the US domesticated enough that it isn't really a problem anymore? the you don't miss what you've never had type of thing...Does having the "Good Life" we give them make up for what we have taken from them? When I say the good life I am of course referring to the love, protection,good diet and of course tons of toys to stimulate their minds. I guess my hope is that all those things offset what we have taken from them.

I'm sorry I know this isn't really the topic at hand....I just hand to comment on your post...I sure would love to meet you and Arwen one day.
Posted By: ShazMom

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/23/11 12:48 PM

I agree with Jos on this one! People have bred animals in general for centuries to get a better species, certain colors, certain temperments, and so on. For example, back in the times of gladiatore, sharpeis were bred to fight lions! YEP! That is why they are very "wrinkly" lil guys with very thick skin! They could be bit by a lion and survive the attack.

Certain animals were and are also bred in captivity to BETTER the species and bring up its numbers. People that breed "for the good of the glider" have good genes in mind and most wind up with "surprise" colors due to this. Most gliders in the wild are grey. They are grey, so that they survive. It helps them to "blend" in with the environment and hide from predators. Almost all species have some variation in color and most have albinos. Albinos are just lacking pigment (melatonin). If anyone here took basic biology and did punent squares, you know that in every species there are dominant and recessive genes. Depending on the mating pair, suggie, human, K-9, so on, they all will have dominant and recessive traits in their DNA. This is what gives us the variety!
My gosh--look at all the new dog breeds we have--labradoodles, puggles, and so forth--is this "for the good" of the K-9 species? Probably not, but people still do it.

We are all entitled to our opions and so forth and this forum is great at letting us do so, but please realize that breeding a species as new as suggies are to our counrty takes time, patience, know how, and money.
BREED WITH CARE! I know that most of our breeder on here do so and I applaude them all! BREED-FOR THE GOOD AND BENEFIT OF THIS AWESOME SPECIES!

Thanks for letting me rant!
Great topic Veggimite!
Posted By: fuzzbuttsmommy

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/23/11 02:19 PM

I started off with all rescued Standard Greys. I love every one of them with all my heart. I Always wanted a Leu and had to save for years to get one. I now am the proud mommy of a little female Leu and a Male Mosaic. Which I plan to Breed one day.I am not doing this to get rich but to be able to give other people the joy of owning a colored Glider at an affordable price.
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/23/11 02:44 PM

Originally Posted By: Celticfaery
I feel totally ignorant asking this question and if it's in the wrong place, please feel free to place it properly, moderators.

Where can I find out about the different colours of gliders? And what does COI mean? And why does everyone else know and I don't?

I got my gliders from a friend. Two are mother and daughter and are standard grays...or is it greys? The third is a blond faced white. I have no idea what lions, mosaics, leus, etc. are.

I will tell you though that as a relatively new owner, I think that all sugar gliders are beautiful, no matter what colour they are. My husband and son think I have lost my mind but I can't help it. I am a fully fledged member of the glider cult and proud of it!


To not get this too far off topic, I sent you a PM. Look for the flashing envelope next to "My Stuff". wink
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/23/11 04:04 PM

Quote:
My gosh--look at all the new dog breeds we have--labradoodles, puggles, and so forth--is this "for the good" of the K-9 species? Probably not, but people still do it.


Yes, it is "good" for the dogs. If labs were only bred to labs, the gene pool would tighten. By cross breeding, it widens the gene pool. The poodle genes adds to the lab genes.

The United Kennel Club recognizes this benefit. With the UKC, you can take two similar dogs (say a sheltie and an american eskimo). They have similar size, similiar hair, similar temperaments. Breed them and then take one of the puppies and breed to a sheltie. Take the pup and breed to another sheltie... and on the 4th generation down from the original sheltie/american eskimo breeding, they are considered Shelties again. This introduces fresh dna/genes to the gene pool while still maintaining the breed standards. You can't take a Doberman and breed with a sheltie and have the same results though. The two have to be similar.

Just breeding a leu to a grey widens the gene pool. The take that het and breed to another grey. Take that het and breed back to a leu to have leu babies. They now have different dna/genes to build off of.
Posted By: VegemiteKid

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/23/11 05:37 PM

I have enjoyed the thread. Cheers to all that have contributed in the discussion.

This is a little off-topic but still talking about lineage and breeding.

My gf, that I bought our joeys for seems determined that she would like a joey (or two) from our pair of greys. I have friends with young families here that I think will make great "forever" homes for some joeys. I am not sure I could go to a market and sell them, if I didn't know their future homes would not take care of them. In a country like Thailand where there is no social security, your retirement fund or pension is your family. When you are old and cannot work anymore, your family takes care of you. No family, means you rely on charity, beg or starve.

For those of us in western countries, this sort of mentality may seem strange, but it's a fact of life and there is an ingrained feeling of family and no amount of reason can shake this. As a foreigner in Thailand, you try to understand the culture, regardless of personal beliefs.

Being relatively young with a view to a long term view of life here and the fact I am now hooked on these little guys, I feel that I will need to start from scratch with these little guys' lineage. I don't intend on being a large scale breeder. But lineage is something I can start to pass on to future owners of any joeys that may be produced.

I have done my best to make sure the two joeys I have are non-related. They appear happy and healthy little rascals. Their lineage starts now. The best I can do is to vary it as much as possible. This is Thailand, and to say a small colony owner should not breed because of having no lineage is to say just leave it with the mill breeders here. Is that "for the good of the glider"?

Sica has previously discussed the situation regarding her poor babies and mill breeders here. Maybe the importance of lineage, recording of lineage and the detrimental effects of in-breeding can be passed on.

Again, cheers for the interesting and informative discussion. I am a newbie and am learning. Thanks again for the advice from more experienced and dedicated breeders. I know you are not making big dollars from breeding. I have previously applauded the efforts of many of the forum members who ensure that my furry cousins will never become extinct regardless of environmental factors, again I say thank-you.

"For the good of the glider".
Posted By: eshaw

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/25/11 06:06 AM

VegemiteKid, It was explained to me about the seemingly unbelievable post numbers that occur here. This is an excerpt from an email I received from one of the moderators in regards to my statement. "There are a lot of people who come to this board on a daily basis. Some old, some new...but the one thing that we TRY to do is to make sure everyone knows they have been heard. THIS is why we will answer people with the "blah blah blah", as you put it. It also serves to bump a thread to the top of the page when it hasn't been answered in a while so that others see it again as a new post. Our hope is that we show people they are being heard and not ignored.

So, while it may seem to you that we're typing it just for fun or to rack up posts, we look at it a little differently. Just wanted to clarify."

Thanks, and that makes sense. Not trying to offend anyone.

Posted By: GlidersNW

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/25/11 07:08 AM

I agree with Nancy (hwm4ev). Not caring about the lineage of the gliders you are breeding leaves you in a position to produce many problems for either yourself with wiggle babies or missing limbs, or for someone you sell your babies to. It's irresponsible to assume your babies are fine without the background to show that they are.

There's reasoning behind keeping track of certain animals and choosing the lines we continue to breed and the ones we stop breeding. When a persistent problem arises out of one blood line we (the responsible breeders) do everything we can to avoid breeding from that line. It would be the same in breeding a dog or a horse. You pick the best bloodlines to further the development and health of the animals you produce. You don't breed poor stock. In our case you don't breed poor or non-lineaged gliders.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider - 07/25/11 06:02 PM

Wow, Shelly, she is incredible!!!! Is she still available? I might have to be extra nice to my fiancÚ the next little while... grin
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider - 07/25/11 10:42 PM

Originally Posted By: JessieR
Wow, Shelly, she is incredible!!!! Is she still available? I might have to be extra nice to my fiancÚ the next little while... grin


Hmmpf...I mis-read that; at first I thought you were saying that I was incredible! roflmao

Sending you a pm. smile
Posted By: dizzyblue

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider - 07/25/11 10:50 PM

Sorry I wanted to pipe in again!
I think lineages and COI's are very very unspeakably important!
I think my earlier post was misunderstood.

I mean that by most people not breeding to make the glider population better, is not me saying that people aren't using lineages and such because to me thats not the case at all. Most people in the glider ads post lineages!

I meant they aren't improving it on a deeper level. Such as breeding to rid diseases and traits that could lead to cancers and thing like that. (just an example.)

I know some are, but really how many of us are microbiologists and genealogists. I've actually studied around those subjects and would have no idea how to start.

So to sum it up.
Lots of breeders are helping by improving gene lines.
And very few are helping to rule out diseases and bad DNA strands?

Is that better
I don't anyone to think i'm the bad kind of evil!!!
Posted By: VegemiteKid

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/25/11 11:15 PM

I am not disagreeing with anyone regarding lineage but if you do disagree with what I will probably do, you don't more than likely don't understand the circumstances in which gliders are produced and sold in "Thailand". This is not a western country with the same standards. I said, "I have done my best to make sure the two joeys I have are non-related. They appear happy and healthy little rascals. Their lineage starts now. The best I can do is to vary it as much as possible. This is Thailand, and to say a small colony owner should not breed because of having no lineage is to say just leave it with the mill breeders here. Is that "for the good of the glider"?

Lineages or even acurate ages oop are not given here. So the small colony owner doesn't have any joeys but continues to buy off mill breeders who sell joeys as young as three weeks oop? Is that what you would prefer to happen in Thailand? I don't know how culturally aware you are regarding Thailand or south-east asia. But people who think they can make 30-50 dollars for a joey are going to do whatever they want to do to feed their families. They won't ever do what you think is "for the good of the glider". My girlfriend works at 7 Eleven here and she earns less than 200 USD per month working 6 days a week for 12 hours of those days. If a mill breeder can produce 6 joeys a month, they have nearly earnt more than my girlfriend does working 72 plus hours a week.

If you think mill breeders are bad in the US, I am sure Sica can attest that millbreeders here are worse.

Maybe I should, just leave it to them like you suggest?


Posted By: dizzyblue

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/26/11 12:34 AM

@vegemiteKid
I think there's a thread from a woman in Thailand
and she talks about where she got her babies.
Which was from a huge mill breeder. So just from reading that we got a really true look at mill breeders over seas.
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/26/11 02:15 AM

Originally Posted By: VegemiteKid
I am not disagreeing with anyone regarding lineage but if you do disagree with what I will probably do, you don't more than likely don't understand the circumstances in which gliders are produced and sold in "Thailand". This is not a western country with the same standards. I said, "I have done my best to make sure the two joeys I have are non-related. They appear happy and healthy little rascals. Their lineage starts now. The best I can do is to vary it as much as possible. This is Thailand, and to say a small colony owner should not breed because of having no lineage is to say just leave it with the mill breeders here. Is that "for the good of the glider"?

Lineages or even acurate ages oop are not given here. So the small colony owner doesn't have any joeys but continues to buy off mill breeders who sell joeys as young as three weeks oop? Is that what you would prefer to happen in Thailand? I don't know how culturally aware you are regarding Thailand or south-east asia. But people who think they can make 30-50 dollars for a joey are going to do whatever they want to do to feed their families. They won't ever do what you think is "for the good of the glider". My girlfriend works at 7 Eleven here and she earns less than 200 USD per month working 6 days a week for 12 hours of those days. If a mill breeder can produce 6 joeys a month, they have nearly earnt more than my girlfriend does working 72 plus hours a week.

If you think mill breeders are bad in the US, I am sure Sica can attest that millbreeders here are worse.

Maybe I should, just leave it to them like you suggest?




Very interesting to hear that point of view. It's very sad to have those circumstances, but they are what they are. And it is wrong for us in the United States to assume that all of our ideals can be imposed on other countries. Honestly, I never even considered that the circumstances were much different there than they are here.

It's obvious that I feel that animals should not be bred without lineage, but you do have a very good point. If you start with the two you have, and start tracking it ~ then at least it starts somewhere. By doing what you can with what you have available to ensure they are not related, that's the best you have.

I guess you are in the same boat the original breeders here were in over 10 years ago. They didn't start out with lineage either.
Posted By: JillMarie

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/26/11 07:39 AM

Good Point Shelly thumb
Posted By: eshaw

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/26/11 11:39 AM

But, on a side note, there is a big difference. You could import gliders with known lineage and start with that for your ground zero. If all you wanted was standards I'm sure you could find a breeder willing to work with you. I think I'd try this with a little networking before I'd just start totally from scratch. I also think that you're in a better position to do this than the locals. Just an idea.
Posted By: 1daddyglider1

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/26/11 12:14 PM

I think you should breed Indonesia gliders, keep track of lineage, keep in touch with persons you adopt to for health issues. Instead of importing lineaged sugar gliders, and while on the subject, imo lineage only tracks possible genetic problems. It DOES NOT gaurantee healthy babies unless we remove any and all health issuesd gliders from the breeding programs. If they are not known then they may creep up at a later time.
If you do start a program and if your gliders are large big boned sugar gliders, and if you plan on exporting, I would be interested in a few babies.We need different blood lines in our glider populations, people I guess may not be looking down the road for five or ten years. Where will you get non related sugar gliders? Have somebody import 200-300 grays from...a mill over seas.How is that any different than what Vegemitekid is starting from scratch and not from a mill. What will happen when we only have every glider has a color background? What happens if they have genetic defects that we can't see and we remove them from breeding? What and where do you get the gliders to replace the ones that you had to remove from breeding? Where do you get sugar gliders to breed out the color lines, do we keep adding many different colors together...

I am one of the breeders that started over ten years ago breeding sugar gliders, but I was specific in the type of gliders I was looking to breed.

Even the colored gliders started out with NO lineage.
Or from a suspected mill breeder...

When I started breeding and now was for a body type, temperment(cause I love to handle moms, babies, and dads together) Health, and for the fun in it. I do it because I enjoy the first look of a joey at me while with mom. The first nip or taste, the first climb on while following mom or dad on to my arm. I do keep track(lineage) on my gliders and don't give it to pet only homes as it doesn't prove that the glider is healthy and is only needed if someone is gonna breed them and sell babies and so forth.
This is a little bit of a sore subject and not sure why I posted in it. Because we were called and accused of things as we started before lineage on gray gliders and most of the color gliders only had the color lines being kept track and not the grays. Although things have changed that's one reason why I don't advertise alot in the community.
Art
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/26/11 03:20 PM

Art, I hope you didn't take offense to my comment about how we started breeding gliders without lineage. It was just to prove a point. It all started somewhere. And when you take wild caught animals and create a breeding program, there wouldn't be any lineage available. So to start a new species as pets, the foundation breeders did what they could. I'm didn't mean for that to come across as condescending in any way.

There are ways that VegemiteKid can do things, such as what he is doing, adding Indonesian gliders, or importing them as suggested. I agree with you though, if he imports gliders with lineage from the United States, then that won't provide any new blood for us here if he ever chose to export to us.

Where will we be in another 10, 20, 30 years? I've heard a few people make mention of that. Without new blood, we will have nothing but a tight circle of genetics and all gliders will at some point be related to each other, even if distantly related.
Posted By: GlidersNW

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/26/11 08:45 PM

I'm sure vegemitekid that you meant well...some of us misunderstood because we are not in that country. When you make a blanket statement like 'for the good of the glider.' you must also put it into context. Wich you did not do at the beginning. Now you have rectified that issue, and it has become much more clear.

The importing glider thing is VERY expensive. If you are doing it on a continual basis, at least with Salt water fish and the USDA. It takes Thousands and thousands of dollars to get licensed and bonded to import from overseas. I'm not sure if there are the same types of legal issues in Thailand, but you would have to do the research. Importing a pair or two or one shipment of gliders is much less time consuming and costly, but they still if coming into the US must go to a USDA quarantine facility where you must rent the facility from the owner and pay the USDA fees for processing. This is the way it works with Finches. This can cost a lot of money. I'm sure there is some differences between the US and Thailand. It may be far easier or far more complicated and expensive to do so there.

Good luck. I'd research it. =0)
Posted By: VegemiteKid

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/26/11 09:47 PM

Hi all. I would love to do almost everything suggested here. Western standards and cultural thinking don't always apply here.

I probably should have made this a separate topic and my situation in Thailand has sort of taken over the original thread.

I love the idea of importing Indonesian gliders and I would love to have two gliders with lineage. But expense, as previously mentioned (red tape not even mentioned) probably prohibit this. Gliders with lineage here may me possible but difficult. I am training my girlfriend up slowly.

Tonight she took the the joeys off me cause I wanted to do their first nail trimming. After talking a while and showing a youtube clip from "Luckysugarglider", she did it herself. When she took them off me she "didn't want them angry at us" for trimming their nails. But she did a very good job.

I am a new sugar glider parent and exporting gliders to the US is many, many, years away. I do like the idea of getting the Thai bloodlines mixed with US bloodlines, but that is something possible in the future. I am still getting to grips with my first two joeys.

I know having a litter with my first two joeys is not all perfect but neither is leaving it to Thai Mill Breeders. I probably adopted my first sugar gliders a little unprepared, but I am an animal lover and regardless how inexperienced I am, I always knew I could provide a better home than the average Thai impulse buyer in a market in Thailand.

I am the grandson of a Texan Veterinarian who emigrated to Australia and passed in 1977 at the age of 99. My grandfather spoke little of his life in the US. He is rumored to have toured with the "Buffalo Bill Wild West Show". He could do all the lasso tricks, shoot over his shoulder and a great horseman. When I was a young child we had dingo pups and wallabies. My grandfather was offered a lion cub to raise, until my grandmother put the matter to rest. wink He captured an escaped lion. Performed head surgery on a man that was hit by a train.

I have worked in Laos for four years, I have released owls, eagles, parrots and even a young monkey back into the wild after rescuing them from roadside markets where our company house was the only foreigners in town. There were three of us. To rescue the monkey, it cost me around 20 US Dollars.

Rambling a bit I know, but what I don't want people to think is that, I am ignorant to the dangers of inbreeding and other health issues regarding having joeys without lineage. The deeper this thread gets into this topic, the more I wish I had posted in a new thread. As much as it is related, it moves away from my initial topic of conversation "Breeding for Vanity" ie breeding colored gliders for the enjoyment of owners.

It is more moving into, "I have two joeys, with no lineage... is this better than leaving it Mill Breeders in Thailand?" I know that 98% of forum members have had little experience in Thailand, but life and culture of Thailand cannot be compared to western standards or criticized without further understanding the situation either.
Posted By: VegemiteKid

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/26/11 09:52 PM

Breaking the forum rules - self delete.
Posted By: GlidersNW

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/26/11 11:39 PM

I think mill breeders in general don't have the best in mind for the animals...wether it be gliders or dogs or anything else. So as far as what you are doing...it is better to try to do what you can than to do nothing at all.

Good luck to you in your ventures.

If you want to talk about import/export of lineaged animals maybe we can talk. I have a friend that travels back and forth to several Asian countries. If we can do it legally, then I would be more than happy to help you out.
Posted By: VegemiteKid

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/26/11 11:54 PM

I appreciate your thoughts Matt.

I am not even sure where to start on such issues as importation/exportation of non-native animals from 0r to Thailand. I speak decent Thai/Laos but nothing on the scale required to tackle this sort of topic given that I have two 3-4 month oop joeys.

BTW this is the youtube video of nailclipping I found earlier. Maybe people who know more than me think this is worthy of stickying in "Health and Hygiene"?

Posted By: GlidersNW

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/27/11 02:35 AM

We have a nail trimming pouch. We take the glider and place them in the nail pouch and close the top. Then pull one leg carefully out the top and gently close the top around their arm and clip the nails on that arm. Then go from foot to foot til you are doen. The gliders are much easier to handle this way. Then we always give them a yoggie or some play time afterward if they don't want a treat. Sometimes mealies...whatever they like. =0)

Also, we use cat nail trimming scissors. They are more stable even than the professional toe/finger nail trimmers because they have a hole in each handle for your fingers to go through like a large pair of scissors would, but they are small enough to see the glider's nails better around/through. They have a little notch that the nail goes in in each jaw of the clippers and they are great. Some pet shops also sell them as lizard or bird nail trimmers.

Sorry DCMuffin...meant to email that...was in a hurry. Also, wasn't paying attention.
Posted By: DCMuffin

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 07/27/11 02:49 AM

Let's keep this thread on topic, please.

Originally Posted By: GC Rule #3
Please keep the posts closely related to the topic. If the topic sparks another thought for discussion, please open a new thread. Post messages in the most appropriate forum. Please refrain from posting the same message in more than one forum. Only one of those messages will remain posted. Do not be offended if moderators move your thread to a forum that fits your topic. In a large forum like ours, this kind of housekeeping is necessary. It is not personal. Please do not use excessive CAPS or bold lettering. It makes your message very hard to read and implies you are shouting.


Thank you!
Posted By: pannonia

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 09/23/11 10:41 PM

Originally Posted By: VegemiteKid


To be honest, apart from the fact that some of these guys colors are a bit rarer.... what makes them any less special or deserving of someone to take care of them?

"For the good of the glider". I am not a biologist or a genealogist, but is breeding these lines "for the good of the glider" or to make us happier?
what's wrong with they way God, Allah, Buddha or any other higher power you believe in, made them any less special?

I don't know if it's me who just don't get it, but I have never seen a picture of a healthy, happy glider that didn't melt my hardened heart.

For the good of the glider, not just to satisfy our vanity for something considered, rarer, different, more valuable.

I would rather a happy, healthy, bonded glider who can't stand to be without me and me without him/her, than a single leu or any other type of glider worth a gazillion dollars.

"For the good of the glider", not us.
Is it just me?

Am I missing the point?"


I am intrigued as to what the larger communities opinions are.

To paraphrase my initial post....

"Is it just me? Am I missing the point?"



idea So following your train of thought we should have never started to breed out different breeds of dogs, cats, horses, cows, pigs...etc.! We should have left everything the way they were created, right?! Hmmm let's see: as far as I know people breed animals to enhance certain traits and/or to improve the species. For example they breed out cows that produce more milk, right or wrong?! But let's get back to the original subject. Why are we trying to breed out colours in sugar gliders? It brings up an other question: Why do people have preferences when it comes to pets? Some prefers german shepherds while others prefers chihuahuas! People pays big bucks for spyhnx cats while others are siamese lovers. When it comes to pets people have preferences wether you except it or not, that's reality & pet breeders try to cater to pet lovers. Why are the coloured sugar gliders so expensive? Because you don't get those colours every time your suggies breed so the colour becomes rare & if that's the colour you prefer well...that's the price you pay! The colour it self doesn't make the animal more "precious". So after all you are indeed missing the point my friend! If you are concerned about animal breeding you might want to contact some race horse breeders & ask them what is the point of breeding horses that they will race after for money! Is that for a good of the horse or is it for capital gain? I'm not trying to insult anyone who owns or breeds race horses nor do I want to pass judgement on them I'm just simply trying to make a point here! Regarding your post: you might not realize, but it is, after all, sounds insulting to any glider person (breeder or owner) when you assume that coloured sugar gliders gets special treatment & better care than their gray counter parts. All these breeders (above) shouldn't have to justify or explain to you why they breed for colours nor do the owners should feel bad about their preference of colour!
Thank you for reading!
Posted By: kjgoulet

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 09/23/11 11:36 PM

I've only read the first page and thought I'd put in my thoughts..

You mentioned dogs have been bred for 100s of years yet we still breed for certain colors. Those that are more desired and some breeds have suffered. Dalmatians have more aggression because of overbreeding the last couple decades (or so I've heard.) People are all into the blue pitbulls.. Yes they're beautiful but breeding has also led to issues with them as well.

No matter what animal it is, people will always breed for those they like. I like blue pitbulls, but love mine to death. I like leus and mosaics, yet I adore my greys and my wf. Creme-inos and albinos freak me out with the red eyes tounge but to those who like them, that's for them.

You bring up a valid point but animals will forever be bred to suit our desires whether it be color, temperment, size, etc. It's how things have always been and how they always will be. I say as long as the lines aren't getting too inbred and COI's stay low I'm all for it smile wouldn't have my Romeo without it. Although I do have to say, a wider gene pool would be great but if I've heard correctly gliders can't be imported from other countries?? Maybe I'm just pulling things out of my butt lol but I swear I read that somewhere..
Posted By: GlidersNW

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 09/24/11 03:33 AM

I think the issue here is simple...the question isn't why aren't standard greys as special as 'colored gliders.' The fact is they are...to each glider owner, the gliders they have are the ultimate. Just like in life certain people have certain tastes that differ from person to person. Like cars...dogs...homes...colors...the types of people they are attracted to...

As the old saying goes...different strokes for different folks.

To each their own. It's not a matter of special vs not special.

Just my two cents worth.
Posted By: pannonia

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 09/24/11 07:06 PM

Originally Posted By: VegemiteKid


I am the grandson of a Texan Veterinarian who emigrated to Australia and passed in 1977 at the age of 99. My grandfather spoke little of his life in the US. He is rumored to have toured with the "Buffalo Bill Wild West Show". He could do all the lasso tricks, shoot over his shoulder and a great horseman. When I was a young child we had dingo pups and wallabies. My grandfather was offered a lion cub to raise, until my grandmother put the matter to rest. wink He captured an escaped lion. Performed head surgery on a man that was hit by a train.

I have worked in Laos for four years, I have released owls, eagles, parrots and even a young monkey back into the wild after rescuing them from roadside markets where our company house was the only foreigners in town. There were three of us. To rescue the monkey, it cost me around 20 US Dollars.

Rambling a bit I know, but what I don't want people to think is that, I am ignorant to the dangers of inbreeding and other health issues regarding having joeys without lineage. The deeper this thread gets into this topic, the more I wish I had posted in a new thread. As much as it is related, it moves away from my initial topic of conversation "Breeding for Vanity" ie breeding colored gliders for the enjoyment of owners.

It is more moving into, "I have two joeys, with no lineage... is this better than leaving it Mill Breeders in Thailand?" I know that 98% of forum members have had little experience in Thailand, but life and culture of Thailand cannot be compared to western standards or criticized without further understanding the situation either.


Wow we getting to know you more & more. Also we getting to know more about Thailand & glider mills & such! Would you like to share some stories about your own gliders? Would love to read about them. agree
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 09/25/11 12:43 AM

I hope it's not too old to post, if there's rules on that I'm sorry but I feel absolutely compelled to reply to this.

I don't breed, never have, in fact the time I had joeys were from the only suggies I ever had, who were dropped off to my door quite literally, so maybe my opinion doesn't count so big but here it is anyway-

I think the breeders are half and half, but mainly I believe the ones that do it for money are like pocket pets, they don't care about color they care about PROFIT, so they'd rather mill by number than color. I also believe there are many who just love suggies so much that it's not so much that they love one color better, it's just they're SO intrigued by new colors and what may come next.
I've thought about breeding one day, not to better the species OR make money, if I did it would be to share the joy those rescues gave me while they were in my care with others. Would I go for and breed other colors? Sure, it seems amazing to see the changes. But if I bred a brand new color would I go for the highest monetary offer? No, I'd go for the best adoption application from the best breeder who would want to continue the new color without inbreeding AND who's gliders are companions as much as breeders.
This is coming from someone who believes NO dogs OR cats should be breed period until the shelters stop having to use euthanasia from lack of space.
Truly I wish they'd pass a law where you HAVE to meet requirements and only have a set number of pairs for breeding anything. But my biggest point is, to me, and hopefully many others in their right mind, it's about the differences. It's not to make money, because when you breed anything the right way you often lose money. It's for a love of them and the difference, the diversity, is beautiful much like people of different races; there's not one better, just a beautiful DIFFERENCE. = )
Posted By: pannonia

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 09/26/11 07:00 PM

Originally Posted By: VegemiteKid
I am not disagreeing with anyone regarding lineage but if you do disagree with what I will probably do, you don't more than likely don't understand the circumstances in which gliders are produced and sold in "Thailand". This is not a western country with the same standards. I said, "I have done my best to make sure the two joeys I have are non-related. They appear happy and healthy little rascals. Their lineage starts now. The best I can do is to vary it as much as possible. This is Thailand, and to say a small colony owner should not breed because of having no lineage is to say just leave it with the mill breeders here. Is that "for the good of the glider"?

Lineages or even acurate ages oop are not given here. So the small colony owner doesn't have any joeys but continues to buy off mill breeders who sell joeys as young as three weeks oop? Is that what you would prefer to happen in Thailand? I don't know how culturally aware you are regarding Thailand or south-east asia. But people who think they can make 30-50 dollars for a joey are going to do whatever they want to do to feed their families. They won't ever do what you think is "for the good of the glider". My girlfriend works at 7 Eleven here and she earns less than 200 USD per month working 6 days a week for 12 hours of those days. If a mill breeder can produce 6 joeys a month, they have nearly earnt more than my girlfriend does working 72 plus hours a week.

If you think mill breeders are bad in the US, I am sure Sica can attest that millbreeders here are worse.

Maybe I should, just leave it to them like you suggest?




You sound kind of angry! The point she is trying to make was lost due to the fact that we are half a world apart! There is nothing we can do about Thailand & mill breeders there! It's a sad fact & disturbing at the same time, but it is what it is! Case closed! No need to be sarcastic! It's not our fault that people in Thailand mill breed them to make extra money to feed their families! If you are so concerned about it you might want to take it up with the local authority instead of lashing out on GC members! All these people here try to give you point of views & advice to the best of their knowledge. You either except it or not it's up to your discretion, but there is no need for you to insult or degrade an other member here!
Posted By: StowawayGliders

Re: Breeding for Vanity or the "Good of the Glider"? - 02/09/12 05:25 PM

I dont understand why it is such a big deal. As long as the breeders do what they can to ensure the health and keep the coi low. no one gives grief to dog breeders who try to achieve certain colors or body type.
© 2022 GliderCENTRAL