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Necropsy results for Chance

Posted By: gliderma

Necropsy results for Chance - 11/22/10 02:39 PM

Apparently every system was great except his liver which showed hepatitis. I am curious how this could have developed. Anyone else ever have a glider die of hepatitis with no warning or symptoms until an hour before they die? shakehead
Posted By: jacknsally

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/22/10 02:59 PM

The hepatitis is usually the result of something causing the liver to fail. Once the liver fails, it's a death sentence - getting to the cause of the liver failure is what initially caused the death. Most necropsy reports, report hepatitis of the liver - there usually is some underlying infection somewhere.

Did they look further or do a histopath?
Posted By: gliderma

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/22/10 04:43 PM

This is the report as written:

Histopathology
Page 2 of 4
Accession#: A103160016
Histopath: Necropsy tissues Pathologist: Trybus, James
Date completed: 11/16/10
Date report entered:11/16/10 Sections/Slides: 19/3
No ID, Exotic # Tissues: 6
DESCRIPTION:
Submission consists of sections of major organs from a Sugar Glider.
Advanced autolysis is present in all sections examined.
Liver: In multifocal to coalescing foci the hepatic parenchyma is effaced by necrosis admixed with
large numbers of coccoid, gram positive bacteria.
Lung, Spleen, Kidney, Heart, Gastrointestinal Tract, Brain: No significant lesions
DIAGNOSIS:
Hepatitis, Multifocal to Coalescing, Acute, Severe
COMMENT:
A hepatic inflammatory response is confirmed histologically. The organisms are consistent with gram
positive, coccoid bacteria. The distribution is consistent with a hematogenous insult although the exact
origin of the bacteremia is uncertain.
Posted By: suggiemom1980

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/22/10 05:05 PM

I've never heard of it before. I'm glad you at least found the reason Chance died. I hope that brings you some peace.
Posted By: Meg_n_Von

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/22/10 11:58 PM

Hopefully this will help diagnose gliders in the future... hug2
Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/23/10 01:41 AM

Lynn, if you check the report, they cultured the bacteria found in his liver and gave you the exact type of bacteria that caused his death. These reports are presented together to give you a better understanding of what caused the death of your baby.

The liver failure was secondary to the infection.

If you would like help understanding the report, give me a call on my home line.

As to your original question, the SUGAR Group has found that 22% of all cases we are seeing are diagnosed as hepatitis after death. In 99% of cases, the owner never knew there was a liver issue. We have one case where there was significant jaundice in the glider prior to death, but in all the others, the glider was "fine one moment and then just died."
It is the most common cause of death found upon necropsies in those reports shared with The SUGAR Group. For this reason, you can look for a liver study to begin next year with the SUGAR Group.
Posted By: gliderma

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/23/10 01:54 AM

I do know that any inflammation of the liver is called hepatitis and his was inflamed with a strep infection. It did come on very suddenly as far as I knew. He was fine, or seemed to be and then got lethargic and died within an hour! All of my other gliders seem to be fine as well so it's scary that it happened so quickly and there was nothing I could do. The report even states his body was in good condition so I am glad it wasn't anything I did wrong, but it doesn't make it any easier to deal with. I wish there was something I could do with the others to make sure they don't have any issues.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/23/10 02:10 AM

Gram-positive coccoid bacteria only means that the bacteria took a blue violet stain, and that it is spherical in shape. The main coccoid bacterias in humans are staphylococci and streptococci. It also includes enterococcus, which has been indicated in humans for cause of bacterial endocarditis (big words for causing inflammation in the heart). Staph alone has 40 different species and even more sub-species, and ranges from causing acne to more serious "flesh eating" diseases depending on the species. These bacteria are literally everywhere, all the time, and we are not aware of them until there is a problem.

The million-dollar question is how do we prevent this from happening again, and why is his cagemate not currently affected.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/23/10 02:40 AM

Lynn, I read all the other necropsies listed here on GC and very many of them have a sudden onset and then death unless there was another condition that was being treated. Then, the liver or kidney issues are found secondary, after the necropsy and histiopathy. Please do not beat yourself up about this. You have done all that can be done, and I doubt even had you rushed Chance to a glider-knowledgable vet in the middle of the night, they would not have been able to find or treat his condition until after his eventual death. Sometimes, it just has to be chalked up to things out of our hands. I've been scouring the web for transmission methods and am coming up pretty empty-handed. Strep that causes strep throat in humans is only transmitted through close contact and things like someone sneezing into their hand, then touching something before washing, and someone else touching the item, then their mouth or nose.
Posted By: jacknsally

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/24/10 10:49 PM

To keep the discussion current- just incase some don't read SGN-

Dr Tristan looked at the histopath report-

Quote:
All this says is that there is bacteria in the liver. It says nothing about the cause of death. In addition, there is autolysis of the tissues, meaning the tissues are breaking down and difficult to interpret. This really limits the information a pathologist is able to get out of tissues. The sooner they are submitted the better chance of getting complete results.
Tim
Posted By: gliderma

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/24/10 11:23 PM

I sent Chance out on Monday. He passed on Sunday morning while I was in Ohio. He was kept cold and shipped overnight so he got there as quickly as humanly possible, which was Tuesday. I don't understand why you are questioning this. These are the results I was given. I am not hiding anything or holding anything back. No offense but Dr. T did not do the exam and has no way of knowing anything more than I do from the report. No one in my household has had any type of strep infection and all the other gliders are fine, as far as I can tell. Chance, himself, was fine up until and hour or so before he passed. Many people witnessed this at OGG. He was eating, playing & eliminating normally. He did not come into contact with any other gliders or people for that matter, except for Suz. So, I don't know why this happened and have done all I can to find out.
Posted By: SariYappa

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/26/10 09:07 PM

Lynn, I'm glad you got some type of resolution from the necropsy. Each little step helps us understand more in the future, to make gliders' lives better in the long run.

I'm not sure why you are feeling sensitive about others at this point
Quote:
I don't understand why you are questioning this. These are the results I was given. I am not hiding anything or holding anything back.

I don't see this happening. I think people are sad for you, and just trying to help hug2

Thanks for sharing the results with the community thumb
Posted By: thefotokat

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/27/10 03:38 AM

Iím a little confused by this.


Originally Posted By: jacknsally
To keep the discussion current- just incase some don't read SGN-

Dr Tristan looked at the histopath report-

Quote:
All this says is that there is bacteria in the liver. It says nothing about the cause of death. In addition, there is autolysis of the tissues, meaning the tissues are breaking down and difficult to interpret. This really limits the information a pathologist is able to get out of tissues. The sooner they are submitted the better chance of getting complete results.
Tim



I am one who doesnít read SGN, so I donít know whatís being said there. Lynn, did you send Dr. Tristan a copy of the full report? From what Nancy quoted him saying on SGN, it seems as though heís only commenting on the histo report. While Iíve not seen your report, Lynn, (my job on the SUGAR Group does not have me involved in seeing any reports) I have seen numerous necropsy reports and all of them have a line regarding cause of death. Itís not normally listed on the histo report, so I wonder if all Dr. Tristan saw was the portion that was posted on GC. That portion that Lynn posted says ďpage 2 of 4Ē which means that itís not the entire report on Chance. The histo results are just one part of finding the cause of death and they will detail what was found upon exam of the tissues sent for analysis.


Originally Posted By: gliderma
This is the report as written:

Histopathology
Page 2 of 4
Accession#: A103160016
Histopath: Necropsy tissues Pathologist: Trybus, James
Date completed: 11/16/10
Date report entered:11/16/10 Sections/Slides: 19/3
No ID, Exotic # Tissues: 6
DESCRIPTION:
Submission consists of sections of major organs from a Sugar Glider.
Advanced autolysis is present in all sections examined.
Liver: In multifocal to coalescing foci the hepatic parenchyma is effaced by necrosis admixed with
large numbers of coccoid, gram positive bacteria.
Lung, Spleen, Kidney, Heart, Gastrointestinal Tract, Brain: No significant lesions
DIAGNOSIS:
Hepatitis, Multifocal to Coalescing, Acute, Severe
COMMENT:
A hepatic inflammatory response is confirmed histologically. The organisms are consistent with gram
positive, coccoid bacteria. The distribution is consistent with a hematogenous insult although the exact
origin of the bacteremia is uncertain.




The SUGAR Group has a confidentiality agreement all staff abides by so I know the report was only released to Lynn. If she didnít send the report to Dr. Tristan for his opinion, then I can see why she feels sheís being questioned. When I read the quoted remark from him, it does seem to imply that there was a lack of results due to tissue breakdown. Pathologists spend all their time examining specimens and they are quite skilled at differentiating between the normal post-mortem breakdown and diseased tissue. Years ago, it was thought that if the necropsy and histo werenít done within 2 days, it was too late. That really isnít true. With proper body preservation, pathologists are able to perform an accurate analysis for 14 days after death. If Lynn did send the entire report to Dr. Tristan, then there should be more pages to be commented upon.

Many folks feel very invested in the stories we read, but weíre not owed any explanations. People share info that will help us learn and help gliders, but it is very difficult to come and answer questions after losing a glider. Lynn has now lost 2 and is trying to find out why.
Posted By: gliderma

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/27/10 05:40 AM

THANK YOU!!! I did not send anything to anyone. It was taken out of my hands and forwarded without my permission or knowledge. Yes I posted it in hopes that it would help anyone else who may have had the same issue. My Blizzard was found to have liver problems as well and the 2 gliders are not related, so I am very concerned!
Posted By: sugarlope

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/27/10 11:57 PM

Lynn, sometimes things just happen and we don't really get to know the why. In this case, I *think* because you seemed to be asking if anyone else had something like this happen, or what might have caused it, that people took what you posted and ran with it. I don't think it was intended maliciously.

However, I DO think Kate made a very good point and one that a lot of us forget when we are following a story or thread;
Originally Posted By: thefotokat
Many folks feel very invested in the stories we read, but weíre not owed any explanations. People share info that will help us learn and help gliders, but it is very difficult to come and answer questions after losing a glider.
Posted By: cyndiekb

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/28/10 12:39 AM

Lynn I have lost 2 gliders with liver issues and I have 3 more living ehre that I know of. Not sure if any of my others have a problem. Bottom line my hist's and necoptcys left with little peace. I would love to know how mine got sick and hot to stop it from happening again. That is all I want nothing more nothing less.

Huge HUG it is the hardest thing I have gone thruogh with my gliders. I pray you are done as I await the future for my sick babies I pray we get more answers.
Posted By: cyndiekb

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/28/10 12:41 AM

forgive typos this thread made me cry over my kiddos again...
Posted By: eterrell84

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/28/10 12:56 AM

Originally Posted By: gliderma
He did not come into contact with any other gliders or people for that matter, except for Suz.

is there ANY way that maybe, while at OGG, you could have touched a toy, or shook hands, or ANYTHING then gave chance a treat? or a quick chin rub? or just even a pat on the head without washing your hands? in NO WAY am i blaming ANYTHING ok, just trying to help you maybe see a small stitch in time, where maybe it was something like that.... also, most people have staff on the skin, can strep also be "carried" without the host knowing? like staff on the skin?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/28/10 01:34 AM

I have to wonder if many liver failure related glider deaths have something to do with Ash's newfound discovery:

http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/...e_s#Post1035566
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/28/10 03:18 AM

Lynn, you let me handle Chance in your room Friday night, remember? I didn't have my gliders with me then, I only brought them Saturday. And bottles of hand sanitizer I handed gatherers til I ran out, lol. Chance may very well have come into contact with someone or something else, I just highly doubt it considering his cagemate is still fine from all accounts. If it was something that a glider can pass by sharing food and water, or touching, or breathing on each other too closely, then by all rights Mshki should be first and worst in the aftermath effects. I strongly suspect the iron in the well water you mentioned in Blizzard's post, since your sitter could very well have filled bottles and them have that water for several days. (If we are totally honest with ourselves, everyone forgets to change water daily on occasion. It's easy when you are in a hurry and the bottle isn't even close to empty.) Chance would be susceptible to the iron first, as a younger, still developing glider. Iron accumulation wouldn't take as long in him. Then the bacteria could have either already been internal, or delivered from the water as well, or just be normal flora that overgrew due to the compromised liver. I highly suspect the 3rd scenario as most likely. I'm going to try to call B tonight and see if she can talk to me about liver issues in gliders, more than what I have read here on GC, but that is the most logical thing I can think of at this point.
Posted By: Dancing

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/28/10 03:28 AM

Megs, this isn't "new". I've known about the formaldahyde for atleast a year now. There was a post made on here a LONG time ago about it.

But yes, that MIGHT have been the cause if these gliders had been exposed to new unwashed fleece.
Posted By: gliderma

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/28/10 03:44 AM

I do wash all the cage sets & toys before they come in contact with my gliders. I have used the same Purex laundry soap the whole time I've had gliders. I swear it's driving me crazy cuz nothing has changed except for them getting the well water on 2 occasions. But even then, they all had the same water at the same time.
Posted By: GliderNursery

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/28/10 03:46 AM

Seems like a lot of speculation going on, but what else can we do?

The report posted is only page 2 of 4, and not indicated if it was all of the information on page 2. I have never seen a necropsy report to know what the other 3 pages would even have on them. Could be critical information to the cause of death, and could be irrelevant information. dunno

I'm not a vet, vet tech, doctor, or even from a medical background ~ so just "speculating" myself. Liver issues are typically secondary to an underlying condition, right? If so, would the other pages of the report have any indication as to what that underlying cause would be?

I'm really concerned about the other gliders in the household. I'm thinking that two gliders that are not in contact with each other, both dying so close together, the other gliders are surely at risk of the same outcome. I would absolutely hate to see anything happen to those other babies.

Surely some testing can be done on the others to see if they have been affected by the same thing. If so, could they be treated and cured?

I may be way off base here, and if I am, I apologize now. I know how broken hearted Lynn is.
Posted By: gliderma

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/28/10 03:54 AM

If anyone wants to see the rest of the report I would be happy to email it to you. I'm not going to use up so much space here. It's mostly descriptive of the condition of the other systems that are all unremarkable.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/28/10 04:10 AM

Teresa, I did not know about the formaldehyde and from what I've noticed, many didn't either. But like Shelly said, at this point, we're all simply speculating because we truly do not know.

I would imagine not knowing the CAUSE of the liver damage thus resulting in death is much more difficult than just simply not knowing why the glider passed in general.

Shelly, not all liver problems are because of an underlying health problem. For instance, an alcoholic with liver damage doesn't have liver damage from, say, the flu, it's from the excessive drinking. I know that's an example grasping at straws, but it's the best example I could think of off the bat. lol

I myself hate not knowing should it be something we could all possibly prevent with our gliders as well. I can't imagine how you feel Lynn. hug2
Posted By: JillMarie

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/28/10 10:20 AM

First off I want to say to Lynn, I appreciate the strength it takes for you to come on here and talk about any of this. If it had been my Arwen, I dont know if I could do it. When I joined a guinea pig forum, and then he died, I quit the forum the same day. I just didnt have the strength. If I found the strength to remain, it would only be for my love of my other gliders, and all gliders worldwide, as I do love them all. But it would be sooo hard, and unless someone has GONE through it, they dont understand.

keeping that in mind, even if they HAVE gone through it, everyone faces death and loss in different ways. If you go back in my earlier days on this forum I was very "crusty" and arguementative. I realized it was while I was going through some very difficult times with my father being very sick and then passing away. So I ask forgiveness if I ever answered bruskly or took offense when none was meant.

I say this to just let you and others know that if you are "sensitive" right now, we all need to understand how hard this is for you. Even trying to share this with us is an indication of the love you have for gliders, and the concern you have for us as glider owners and I applaud you!

I would also say it would be hard for me to even send Arwen out for a necropsy, as I would rather bury her in our "cemetery" near the rest of the family. so that in and of itself took alot of love and strength. I am crying now even thinking of ever having to do this, so I must change the subject slightly so I can see my keyboard...

Reading all this I have gone to the Sugar group site and done my surveys. While I know it would take a huge database and time to build, I would love to see some sort of record keeping and survey and such for the diet the deceased glider was fed, as well as ages of gliders when they do die.

I was disturbed over the % findings they have for reasons for glider deaths. Liver and kidney combined 30% ??? does anyone feel that is pretty high? what were the ages of the gliders? if they were all over 10 years, it could just be an old-age-breakdown-of-the-body kind of thing. if they were all under 8-10 I would be concerned there is something else going on such a toxins from toys, pouches, unsafe cage paint, or worse...the diet. I am very concerned that the diets we follow may be an underlying cause to all the unhealthy liver and kidneys we are seeing.

when some one submits a necropsy report, should they be including the diet information?

I hope I do not upset anyone here, but I am extremely concerned about this...and Lynn dear, my heart goes out to you in this hard time. thank you (hugs)
Posted By: gliderma

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/28/10 02:10 PM

Chance was just 3 1/2 mos old. Blizzard was 2 yrs. old in Oct. He came to me from babydevilsangel and Chance was born here. They were both on the traditional HPW diet. I did feed it every night with veggies one night, fruits the next night and Yoplait fruit yogurt the next night, then repeat. Occasionally, they were fed baby food such as 3rd stage squash, sweet potatoes, apples & chicken, chicken and applesauce. Treats included dried tropical fruit mix, pine nuts and mealies. Chance's parents are Motley, a mosaic from Angie & Dainty from babydevilsangel and he was the 2nd pregnancy for them. The first were twins that passed shortly after coming oop. Blizzard fathered Mshki (who I successfully hand raised) & his twin who passed away and another set of twins who also passed away. I retired the mother and she is now living happily with another female. I was waiting to pair Blizzard with Eva out of Seabee & Badger from dani, after the 1st of the year as Eva will be 1 in March. I have had many other joeys and know I am doing the right things. Since Chance was oop in July, I think it's safe to believe there's probably another pregnancy in the works. I will determine my future plans with this pair depending on that outcome. I would also like to see a registry of some sort that tracks this type of information. I know it would be beneficial to see if there are traits being carried on that maybe shouldn't be. It may save alot of heartache. I do love my gliders and want to help others by providing any info I have. It was very hard to give up both of their little bodies and not just hold them forever, but I had to get some kind of closure, and maybe stop this from happening again.
Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/28/10 02:19 PM

Quote:
when some one submits a necropsy report, should they be including the diet information?

Yes. As well as a whole bunch of other information (age, lineage, cage mates, daily routine, hygiene routine, symptoms, etc). As I explained before, science dictates that we look at as many possible causes as we can come up with - objectively - to try to find some answers.

In order to receive financial assistance from The SUGAR Group, one MUST complete our necropsy survey. This survey is then combined with the official necropsy, histopathology and/or culture reports and studied together. We are not simply stockpiling a bunch of necropsy reports, we are using this objective data found after death COMBINED WITH the survey to begin to put the pieces together so that we can one day find some answers.

Quote:
The report posted is only page 2 of 4, and not indicated if it was all of the information on page 2. I have never seen a necropsy report to know what the other 3 pages would even have on them.

When the SUGAR Group submits a glider for postmortem testing, our contract includes a MINIMUM of gross necropsy and histopathology of the 5 major organs (heart, brain, kidney, liver and lungs)as needed (meaning that if they find ANYTHING on one of these 5, they take sections and set them for histological testing). In addition, depending upon what they find, they may call me and ask permission for further testing. This may be a skin scraping, parasitology, a bacterial culture, stomach content toxicology testing, histopathology on the stomach lining, biopsy of a tumor, etc. etc. We ALWAYS agree to additional testing in order to get some answers.

So, depending upon the number of tests run on a glider, each report from a SUGAR Group case will include a minimum of two separate reports - necropsy report and histopathology report. If other testing were done, there might be a parasitology report, a culture report and so on. These are then compiled into a "FINAL report" and the pages numbered. ALL of these reports must be read together and the findings combined in order to make sense of the report.

As part of our confidentiality statement, I cannot comment publicly on the specifics of Lynn's report without her express written consent - none of the SUGAR Group staff can. So, I am talking generalities here, not commenting on Lynn's report specifically.
Posted By: Feather

Re: Necropsy results for Chance - 11/28/10 02:46 PM

Lynn,

Maybe you should test your well water, I believe that you stated somewhere that you filter your water before the family drinks it and you usually use filtered water for the gliders.

To cut down on your financial burden of doing fecal tests on all of your gliders, pool feces from each cage of glider. Lets face it if one glider in the cage has a parasite you will be treating the whole cage. So take a fecal sample from each glider in the cage and pool it.

I am really sorry you are going through all of this and I hope you are able to find the answer.
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