GliderCENTRAL

Florida suggie owners...

Posted By: Anonymous

Florida suggie owners... - 04/19/08 04:59 PM

I'm not sure if this law is new or not, but I thought it was interesting...
The law requires cages to be 4'x4'x4' and that is just for 1 to 2 gliders...they require cages be even bigger if you have more than 2 gliders

You can find the info in the Florida Fish And Wildlife Conservation Commission Law and Code Manual.
I wish every state had this law !
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/19/08 05:16 PM

The new cage size requirement laws were adopted in April 2007 but did not go into effect until January 1, 2008.

Cage requirements are 4' x 4' x 4' in Florida.

It is great to require cages to be bigger than the recommended but there is no way to get them outside to clean them unless you have double doors. Most doors, interior and exterior are only 3' wide.

This will create a problem for alot of people who can't get their cages outside for a good scrubbing down.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/19/08 05:24 PM

I'm glad my cages fit the bill... and they fit out the sliding glass door, too! laugh
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/19/08 05:35 PM

my cages i jus clean in the shower
i have a 5x3x3 cage and i stick it in the showr and let the water soak it and spary it with eco(a cleaner i use at the shelter it kills just about everything and is animal friendly. Then i get a scrub brush and get to work haha mine fits out the door but it takes two people and most the time its just me here so i use the shower
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/19/08 06:01 PM

Originally Posted By: cosmicwhispers
my cages i jus clean in the shower
i have a 5x3x3 cage and i stick it in the showr and let the water soak it and spary it with eco(a cleaner i use at the shelter it kills just about everything and is animal friendly. Then i get a scrub brush and get to work haha mine fits out the door but it takes two people and most the time its just me here so i use the shower


If your cage was the required size, it is tall enough but not wide enough, it would not fit through the bathroom door.
A 4'x4'x'4' is not going through an ordinary door. worried
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/19/08 08:46 PM

Where would you find a cage that size? Someone should post a link to where you can buy a cage that size. For those who live in Florida.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/19/08 09:44 PM

I made my cages out of PVC pipe and hardware cloth, well the hubby helped. smile
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/19/08 09:57 PM

I always wanted to make my own cage, but have no clue how and where to start LOL do you have instructions?
Posted By: blockamon

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/19/08 10:33 PM

Big cages are great, but 4x4x4 for 1 or 2 gliders is kind of crazy.I personally think that the law is a bad idea for several reasons:

1) Florida already has problems with people releasing gliders because they bought them without knowing the full commitment. Now, they have to make room for a monster cage. I hope I'm wrong, but I forsee a lot of problems ahead.

2) Even if people do keep the gliders, how do you clean the cages effectively? They will either have to come apart or be cleaned in place. Anything that makes a cage hard to clean makes it more likely that it won't be cleaned often enough.

3) What are breeders and rescue organizations going to do? I doubt that they can afford either the cages or the room to take in multiple gliders.

All in all, I think the new law is going to make it a lot worse on gliders in Florida.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/20/08 03:18 AM

Ouch - that is a large cage for just two gliders...... I have the sturdy cage from Suncoast and it big enough for two gliders...... I could not image having to buy new cages if I was a breeder.

And - I agree..... what door will the cage fit thru? - not to many.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/20/08 04:03 AM

Originally Posted By: Rhapsody
Ouch - that is a large cage for just two gliders...... I have the sturdy cage from Suncoast and it big enough for two gliders...... I could not image having to buy new cages if I was a breeder.

And - I agree..... what door will the cage fit thru? - not to many.


I am thrilled with this new law ! I had the Suncoast cage for my 2 gliders for about 2 months. Its a nice cage but I think it is too small for gliders.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/20/08 05:56 AM

yea but many people didnt and dont even know about it... I never knew about it and I'm def goin to take my time getting a bigger cage... this hit in Jan and its almost may... they aren't doing anything to enforce it!
Posted By: reeny

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/20/08 01:49 PM

I am pending my USDA license. I am waiting to see what happens. I just found out about this law change a week ago. I cleaned cages all day yesterday. I have cages similar to flight cages from Suncoast. I think they are great cages and a great size for two suggies. My husband and/or son still have to help me move them outside when I clean them. It is an all day project. I can't imagine trying to move and properly clean a 4x4x4 cage. I agree with blockamon it will make cleaning difficult. Anything that is difficult makes people avoid. I am very meticulous(sp)about my cages so if I do have to change the size of the cages, first of all it will be very expensive and secondly, make cleaning and moving them impossible.

I wonder if we in Florida unite and try to write a proposal to the Florida Fish and Wildlife if we could change the law back. If enough people get involved maybe we could do something.
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/20/08 02:27 PM

I just spent alot of time reading the entire thing. What I find interesting is its all based on outside enclosures but they make no exception for the controlled indoor environment we provide. And the only variables that can change ANY of their rules are varying differences like having a mote instead of a fence.

Very interesting. And some larger animals require smaller caging. I suppose due to the species diffrences. But read the animal just below the one for suggies on this page and tell me it doesn't sound more like suggies requirements? 4x3x3, that sounds more doable anyways in the average home. Sounds actually like what I already have. At the very bottom is the exceptions which are many, and certainly on temporary circumstances like trips to the vet, etc.

http://myfwc.com/codebook/2006/68A_Freshwater_Fish_and_Wildlife.pdf
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/20/08 02:41 PM

Ya know - I kind of think this is a crazy law to have! Its great that they want the gliders to have the room, BUT - what about chewers? You cant really find a good cage that big, that wont cost a small fortune, so most people would have to build their own, or go with a rept. and if you have a chewer, a rept isnt an option. Seems to me that this law WILL cause more harm than good....
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/20/08 02:57 PM

I don't agree with this law but I see where they are coming from. Gliders are meant to glide from tree to tree, but when they are in the cages most of us have, they can't glide like they should. So when they made this law maybe they were thinking if theses people want to have sugar gliders as pets then they should provide them with housing in which they can still do all the things they would in the wild.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/20/08 03:20 PM

Originally Posted By: Melissa2721
Originally Posted By: Rhapsody
Ouch - that is a large cage for just two gliders...... I have the sturdy cage from Suncoast and it big enough for two gliders...... I could not image having to buy new cages if I was a breeder.

And - I agree..... what door will the cage fit thru? - not to many.


I am thrilled with this new law ! I had the Suncoast cage for my 2 gliders for about 2 months. Its a nice cage but I think it is too small for gliders.


Both of these posts have valid points, Rhapsody, you are correct, these size cages will not fit through a regular door, only double doors and will take a couple of people to carry it out. How many folks in Florida have double doors? Not me. The cage I built is 6' tall, 3'deep by 3'wide and I have to take the door off of the glider room to get it outside to clean it. It's a chore but the babies are worth it.

Melissa, I agree the recommended size to house 2 gliders is too small, however, this law will cause alot of problems here. If folks that can't provide or build cages this size or can't get them out their home to clean, we will have gliders turned loose, living in filth, living outside in the required size, or turned over to rescues which are now bursting at the seams here already.

Not a good senerio at all.
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/20/08 03:48 PM

I cant see either to find a more recent version that the 2006. Can anyone else?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/20/08 05:00 PM

another point... if thats the law for the cage size then how come when ppp came to the fair in fl they were selling them in small cages that arent even the recommended size... i thought some1 said Florida Fish And Wildlife have to check out their booth b4 they start... so again im guessing unless you go to get your license or something not many people are going to abide by this law... i think if it was enforced yes it would cause prob but the fact that its not im sure many people will just ignore it...
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/20/08 05:22 PM

Maybe that can be used an an angle to get them in trouble in the future.
**But if you read the exceptions at the bottom of the link it says the specific on exhibitions which I believe they fall under during selling and they only have to be cared for properly and fed, and given vet care if needed. I imagine alot would go into proving they are breaking those rules. But reporting them when a show is coming around would be good!

Another good thing to know is Florida has a "Lemon Law" that DOES cover animals for sale. All animals. And it specifically says you cannot sell sick animals, so in the PPP thread you can send in your vet records to the people working on it that would be a BIG help Im sure!

Like the new laws concerning the prices of rabies tags for fixed or non-fixed dogs/cats in PBC. They've raised the rates in an effort to get people to sterilize their animals to hopefully in turn decrease the numbers of unwanted strays. In theory I think it will help. But to those hobby breeders this will cause HUGE expenses to keep the small numbers of pairs of dogs/cats they have as breeders and keep them vaccinated too. They've put in place some incentives for the first pair to those people but any there after are BIG bucks. Now what I think is going to happen, are alot of people are STILL not going to get their animals fixed and now they are going to be running around not properly vaccinated as well because the centers that were supposed to be available to sterilize arenít set up yet... Go figure.

Both sides of the laws encourage people to do different things. In this case though with our suggies standard size single doors canít accommodate a cage that size. And I for one am NOT willing to keep my cages outside. Not to mention that I cannot because I live in an apartment. I could not if I wanted to get a 4x4x4 in and out unless it was collapsible.

So those with multiple cages of suggies, may opt to NOT get licensed because they simply cannot keep up with the codes on the cages. Breaking the laws, yes... But I can ALMOST understand why.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/20/08 05:31 PM

well said!!!!
Posted By: reeny

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/20/08 05:42 PM

Someone here was at the fair and was watching PPP they said they didn't sell the cage here. Wonder if that was because they couldn't?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/20/08 05:44 PM

I couldn't agree more.
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/20/08 05:59 PM

Last time I saw the PPP was sometime before Jan 2008 and they WERE selling the cage, hot rock, water bottle, baby together.

Maybe since this new thing has begun they have since stopped. Maybe its better that way. If people cant "one stop shop" so to speak maybe they will be less inclinded to purchase something they know little about.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/20/08 06:40 PM

yea but i thought in Miami they were still selling the package... i think even in the tampa fair they were too... but who knows
Quote:
But if you read the exceptions at the bottom of the link it says the specific on exhibitions which I believe they fall under during selling and they only have to be cared for properly and fed, and given vet care if needed.


maybe they have their ways around it... but they def dont have the vet care or anything if babies are being sold sick
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/20/08 06:56 PM

Yes PPP was still selling the package because thats how i got Rocky. I bought him in Mar '08, with the cage which is very small compared to this law. The small cage is the only one they sell in person and they say they have bigger cages on their website. Anybody think there is a chance at getting my money back for the cage? Also i have been searching on ebay for a new cage even before i found out about this law and wanted to know if wpic-trading is a good company to buy from.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/20/08 10:07 PM

Another Question to Ponder....... Who / What Company actually builds Glider Cages that are 4 x 4 x 4?
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/20/08 10:36 PM

I was wondering the same question, and even further, if we do find a good company, one with sturdy cages that stand up to urine and citrus, I would need ones that are collapsible...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/23/08 03:13 PM

The cages could be handmade for that size. And mayb with zip ties that allow enough wiggle room to be collapsable , but not enough where suggies can escape.
Well whoever is up next to be inspected let us in on the scoop, on whether or not the cage size that most of us have is ok.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/25/08 12:44 PM

PPP was at the State Fair in Tampa and I also got the kit (and a sick glider but that's another story). This was Feb 8, 2008 the cage is way way too small for the law. I took it to the BBB and they are trying to pursue a lawsuit so I guess I probably won't see my money back from them. They say that I am trying to extort money from them They really are crazy but I won't stop fighting.
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/25/08 12:59 PM

Well they are probably trying to come up with the easiest way to get out of the BBB's investigations. I wonder if everyone in the PPP's thread has done that? Reported them to the BBB's in their respective areas. A FLOOD of those reports might trigger some kind of higher up law enforcement or investigation maybe? I dont know.

Someone should probably go over to that group of PPP threads and mention it if they already didn't recommend every who has dealt with the PPP to do that!
Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/25/08 01:12 PM

OK, don't panic! That law has been around since the 90's. Florida was unique in the way it set up laws on wildlife because it was the first to mandate cage size and cage conditions, not just for gliders but for almost all animals held in captivity. The only problem is that Florida Wildlife doesn't have the manpower to enforce these laws in private homes. So theyíre not going to come busting your door down with a ruler in their hand. The do keep a close watch on commercial animal keeper like Animal parks and Zoos. If you read the whole set of rules there are also different rules for animals that are being transported and for animals that are for sale.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/25/08 01:48 PM

Well if the law has been around since the 90's, there are many Licensed breeders here in Fl. So i think there is nothing to worry about, since i think not all of the cages meet that standard, and yet have been licensed anyway.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/25/08 02:11 PM

Wow.. i was wondering.. how in the world and where in the world am i going to get a cage that size... since my babies ARE chewers....
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/25/08 02:17 PM

I think this was a recent change that took effect for PET homes as of 1/1/08 if you read the opening post to this thread. Im not sure, because Im at work and have everything book marked at home. I believe zoo and such have always had to have exhibits that large, but this now includes PET homes as well. But your right, they aren't going to come knocking on doors, but us keeping our suggies in our homes in less than the laws say is still breaking the law.

Has ANYONE in FL been inspected by the USDA since 1/1/08 for their license AND been approved with less and 4x4x4 cages THIS year? Maybe that will prove or disprove?
Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/25/08 02:44 PM

So does anyone have a copy of this new law. If it does exist it shold be posted on the internet. I've been thruoug the Fla Wildlife's laws a lot in the last few months and I don't see where they've made any changes. Maybe I'm missing something. I know this isn't going to make me real popular but I really wish that they would enforce this.
Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/25/08 03:03 PM

Ok, hang on, I just found something date 1,1, 08. give me a little time to study it.
Posted By: MatchMakerMagic

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/25/08 03:10 PM

I wish I could help you more, but Im in and out and supposed to be working (shhh dont tell anyone!!!) lol.

I have it all bookmarked at home and read it at length. I recall seeing a date and it specifically covering pet homes now... Something to that effect... But I can't for sure quote anything from my desk here at work.

Let us know Anita!
Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/25/08 03:36 PM

OK, Rule 68A is the rule that covers all pet cage sizes, not just gliders. It's quite long. It seems that they have made some changes somewhere in the law, but the part about gliders is the same as it has always been.


This IS the same law that has been on the books since the 90's. And they don't enforce it because it would take a huge staff. Remember it's not just suggies that we are talking about. The wildlife rule book mandates cage size for all animals held in captivity. Can you imagine trying to enforce that? What a nightmare.

Also, did you know that in Australia, the minimum cage size is 10 x 10? If our government was a lot tougher on cages, it would stop a lot of this impulse buying, thats for sure.
Posted By: hushpuppy

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/25/08 03:38 PM

Also, I wish that tey would make that cubic feet instead of floor space. Since gliders art tree animals, I think height is as important ans width and lenth.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/25/08 03:55 PM

There is a site called Uncle Henry's where I found a person that will custom make cages. You could probably order from them and have them shipped. They seemed reasonably priced....
It's http://www.unclehenrys.com
You should be able to post an ad about what size cage you'd need and then wait for a contact! smile
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/25/08 04:08 PM

Also, the site is based in Maine so shipping may be pricey.
Posted By: Anai

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/26/08 12:21 PM

i made a cage that is 7'x30"x30" does that fit the requirement?
Posted By: reeny

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 04/26/08 12:44 PM

No the requirements are 4x4x4. 30" is not 4 ft.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Florida suggie owners... - 05/01/08 07:06 AM

I think this would be a great law if we lived in an area without such drastic variation on temperatures, but with cages 4' or larger, some ppl.might have to keep them outside. With summer temp. here reaching 100F, and during winter having a variation of 20 to 30 F between day and night, that would probably cause the gliders to get very ill, therefore this law would actually cause them more harm; it doesn't say the cage have to be in an environment with controlled temp. I can see the good intentions of it, but (specially for home gliders) there haven't been much thought about the viability of it.
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