Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached)

Posted By: sugarglidersuz

Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/16/06 02:19 PM

Mareki has started to self-mutilate her patagium over the weekend. I have her in an e-collar, but she's so fat that she keeps squirming out of it, so it's hard to keep it on her. I have an appointment to bring her into the vet tomorrow (soonest available since she's not in the office on Mondays). In the meantime, I'm giving her MetaCam for pain management, flushing the wound with saline and applying Neosporin antibiotic ointment.
This really all started in January when she got a slight puncture wound on her patagium (see first attached picture). Since then, it healed up, but she continued to overgroom the area. Then, this weekend, we traveled to Michigan for the weekend and I think the stress of traveling got to her. Yesterday I discovered that she has self-mutilated her patagium and there is about a 1" long gash along it just below/next to her arm. I'm sure the vet will have to debride and suture it closed. We will now start the long road of recovery and I know she'll be in an e-collar for a very long time. I will be going over to the Self-Mutilator's site and filling out their survey very soon here. I have attached a couple pictures of the patagium wound that she inflicted on herself. If you're faint-hearted, don't look at these pictures...
I am very thankful to Jen (Xfilefan) for her directions on how to make an e-collar. I had experience with them due to Gizmo's neutering last March and so had everything in stock and was able to make one in fairly short order.
This is one of those cases where the warning signs were all in place, but you just can't prevent the inevitable sometimes... I'll keep everyone posted via this thread as to the results at the vet tomorrow and Mareki's progress from here.

Attached picture 3992-Mareki'sChest.jpg
Attached picture 3993-Mareki'sPatagiumWound10'15'06003rdc.JPG
Attached picture 3994-Mareki'sPatagiumWound10'15'06004rdc.JPG
Posted By: BCChins

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/16/06 02:23 PM

Aww Suz I am sorry that looks ouchie. I hope she makes a fast recovery for you and her sake. Hugs to you both.

Pssst I niticed you cut her toe nails in the last picture!! Just trying to make you smile!!!
Posted By: sugarglidersuz

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/16/06 02:31 PM

Yes, I had to trim her nails cuz she was cutting up my hands every time I'd try to put the e-collar on her laugh
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/16/06 02:35 PM

Oh gods, that look so painful! She's so lucky to have such a good mom to look after her! Keep us updated honey! ; ;
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/16/06 02:37 PM

hug2 Oh Suz, how aweful hug2

The patagium is such an unusual place to SM on. Praying that she keeps the collar on long enough for healing. Let us know what the vet has to say. Is it possible that there was something in there that kept her bothering it all this time?

Only reason I say that is that Badger had a similar wound on his patagium several months ago and was overgrooming it. Luckly we discovered a tiny lump in his skin. The vet popped it and something like a small splinter came out. Afert we got it healed he has never bothered it again.

Sending lots of hugs your way hug2

I'll try find a pic of his sore.

Attached picture 3995-BadgerSore.jpg
Posted By: sugarglidersuz

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/16/06 02:42 PM

It's a good thought, but sadly, I don't think that was the issue with Mareki since I've been bringing her to the vet every couple of months since last January to have the overgrooming looked at. Upon probing, the vet could feel scar tissue but there was never any indication of underlying infection.
Mareki does have a history of not leaving well enough alone. She used to be housed with her mother, DaisyMae, but she wouldn't allow Daisy's mating wound to heal and after she continually would reopen it, we finally separated them from each other permanently about a year ago. For some reason, she's just an obsessive picker... dunno
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/16/06 02:44 PM

Ouch, that looks painful! Hope everything works out for her.

A little off topic, but I know you mentioned giving her metacam. I'm assuming you just happened to have some? I was perscribed it from the vet for Sampson's neuter. I'm definitely going to have left overs.. Is it a good idea to keep it around in the event of SM or injury? I'm not anticipating either, just curious, accidents can happen and the vet isn't always available. How long would it be good for?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/16/06 02:47 PM

Oh gosh, that looks so awful.

It must be so stressful for you and Mareki...

Please keep us updated. hug2
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/16/06 02:59 PM

Poor little girl. worried She couldn't be in better hands though. I will keep you and Mareki in my prayers. hug2
Posted By: Karin

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/16/06 03:15 PM

One more group hug, Suz. hug2

Posted By: LSardou

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/16/06 04:39 PM

:hug2, :hug2, heart I am so sorry that this is happening. We will keep lots of prayers coming to the both of you.
Posted By: BeckiT

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/16/06 05:00 PM

Sending prayers to you and Mareki! Thank goodness she has such a great mom who is trying to get her fixed!
Posted By: sugarglidersuz

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/16/06 05:25 PM

Thank you all for the encouraging words & hugs. I just checked on her a little while ago and she had wriggled out of the e-collar AGAIN! tant Any ideas for how to keep the collar on a FAT glider??? I'm open to suggestions! I can't make it too tight, or her breath gets cut off dunno Anyway, I put it back on her again. It doesn't look like she did any more damage during the interim, so things are okay so far... Can't wait to see the vet tomorrow though.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/16/06 05:42 PM

Any ideas for how to keep the collar on a FAT glider???

I think she meant "Any ideas for how to keep the collar on a FLUFFY glider???"

Maybe some kind of medical tape? Not the super sticky stuff...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/16/06 06:19 PM

need_hug Suz' JJ & Koko are saying their payers for her speedy recovery, and sends all there hug2.
Posted By: sugarglidersuz

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/16/06 09:05 PM

Since I put the collar back on her at 1 o'clock, she has not managed to get it back off again. I used fresh duct tape and snugged it just a little bit tighter. Then I was paranoid about her getting strangled so I kept checking on her every few minutes to make sure she was still breathing okay and her nose wasn't turning blue. She seems to be doing fine... Tomorrow just can't get here soon enough for me!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/16/06 09:19 PM

frown That just looks terrible. I hope everything goes well at the vet. Poor baby. You'll both be in my thoughts. frown
Posted By: sugarglidersuz

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/17/06 10:19 AM

At about 1:30 a.m., Mareki managed to get out of her e-collar again. She lasted over 12 hours this time, so I'm finally getting the hang of how to get it on her at the right size. Anyway, her hospital cage is right next to my bed, so I heard her as soon as she started to make self-mutilating noises. I vaulted out of bed, got her into the living room and got the collar back onto her again. She fought me in the process, but I was the victor and she's now had the collar on for the past 4.5 hours. Fortunately, she didn't do any further damage to her patagium in the brief moments before I caught her. Her appointment is scheduled for 8:20 this morning, so I will update again after that...
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/17/06 12:31 PM

I had my big boy Petrie (Who weighed in at about 180 grams at that point) in a collar for a few weeks. With him it was hard to get the collar on because his neck is just so fat blush LOL I would just put it on as tight as I thought he needed and then pull just a little bit more. WIth Petrie he was so bunched up sometimes it was hard for me to see where the collar should be placed and it ended up too far up on his head which he could easily slide out of. I would put him on a table or bed and push his shoulders down to where he sort of flattened out a bit. FOr me, that was easier to tell where the collar should fit. Each time I took it off (to clean him and the collar) I would use new duct tape to secure together.

He would fight the collar initially and he made those really stressed out noises. But with him I found that if I held him and let him grasp my hands/fingers with his feet, he seemed to feel more in control and would calm down faster. Once calm, he stopped with the stressed out noises and that's when I would watch his nose to make sure he wasn't turning purple.

What type of collar are you using? I prefer the shot-glass style much more because I found with the satellite collar my gliders were more likely to run into things with it and it would start them fighting to get the collar off all over again. Especially Petrie. He kind of lumbers around as it is, and with the wider satellite collar he would catch it on things and seemed to have a tougher time getting comfortable enough to sleep.

And I'm sure you know, but the more you can carry her with you, then better. I had my little Kenji in a collar this weekend after a neuter and I had him with me about 20 hours a day. Anytime he started messing with the collar or himself I was right there to distract him.

Good luck Suz and hope your little girl is on the mend quickly hug2
Posted By: MizValorie

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/17/06 12:53 PM

I am so sorry Suz. I will be praying that everything at the vet goes okay! I hope she gets better soon.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/17/06 01:15 PM

Suz, you are dealing with so many issues right now, bless you. I have only seen injuiries to the membrane a few times. One was with Scooter when the vet (not my vets) apparently tried to start a IV there without permission, then tried to close it with sugical glue, and the other was a injury of unknown cause that healed well but the glider did have to have surgery to close the wound. Both gliders were in e-collars for some time.
I am praying for you and your gliders. The e-collar is something you will improve with time. Its never easy though and I hate them but they are so necessary as we all know. I do staple my e-collars and that helps to secure them better. I don't use the shotglass collar though. Please give her a kiss from me.
Posted By: sugarglidersuz

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/17/06 01:38 PM

I went to the vets with Mareki this morning. Upon examination of the wound, Dr. West determined that the edges are already showing signs of crystallization (which means they are starting to heal already). Based on the amount of crystallization, we decided to forego debriding and suturing at this point. Mareki will remain in the e-collar while the wound heals on its own. This will leave more scar-tissue than if it was debrided and sutured, but for now will be less stressful on her. I will need to irrigate the wound with saline solution 1-2 times daily and will need to apply SSD ointment 2 times daily. Dr. West also prescribed SMZ/TMP antibiotic for her. I can give MetaCam as needed for pain. In a week, I will bring Mareki back in for a follow-up examination.
Dr. West is going to look into the possibility of an antianxilliatory for Mareki to try to prevent future continued self-mutilation. I'm going to be checking with Xfilefan and Bourbon to find out if this type of treatment has been tried on gliders before and if so, which medication has been used with what margin of success.
I seem to have overcome the e-collar problem and now have a pretty good idea of how tight to put it on her. She was bunching up her neck, so now I make sure her neck is stretched out before I put the collar on & that has helped a LOT! The satellite-style collar that I'm using is a modified one, so it is not so awkward for Mareki to maneuver around the cage.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/17/06 09:21 PM

We have had a few gliders that were treated with Prozac and had very good results. One glider was Scooter, who was a self mutilator. I would check with your vet about trying it. The pozac really helped to control the compulssion with Scooter. Scooter has been out of the e-collar for almost 2 years now, this was after a partial penis amputation, a tail amputation, and a temperary urinary cathater. He is no longer on the Prozac and has not attempted to injury himself further although he is watched closely by his human family. The vet said he could be on a maintance dose if needed.
Posted By: Xfilefan

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/17/06 09:25 PM

Suz, how many layers of molefoam do you have under the moleskin around the neck, and how much overlap?

I've had good results with the valium as well-it seems to make them less interested in the wound-they don't stress over it as much, and side effects are low.

Let me know, and we'll see if we can't come up with a solution to keep your girl in her collar!

Lots of hugs! hug2 hug2
Posted By: sugarglidersuz

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/18/06 01:35 AM

I don't have any molefoam on the e-collar at all. There are 3 layers of moleskin. Is that right? Should I add molefoam? Would that help?

Thanks for the tips about Prozac and Valium. I'll let the vet know...
Posted By: Xfilefan

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/18/06 02:07 AM

As in the pic directions, the molefoam (1 or 2 strips thick) help to "catch" the edge of the skull, making it harder for the glider to pull the collar off, but without choking them. Riker had the same problem yours is, which is why we did that. Give it a try and see if it helps, and put it UNDER 1 layer of moleskin at the neck, and leave a 1/2 to 3/4 inch piece of the collar without it, so it can overlap and help better secure it. And you know you can call if you need to. hug2

Steps 2-4 in the link:
Posted By: sugarglidersuz

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/18/06 02:10 AM

Sheesh! You'd think after posting YOUR directions on my web-site, I'd already know that. That's what I get for doing it from memory instead of looking at the instructions... roflmao I'll get molefoam and rework it tomorrow. I'm sure that will help!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/18/06 12:44 PM

LOL Suz, I did the same thing the first time I made an e-collar. Boubon directly sent me the directions to make it and then I was on the phone with her trying to get the collar on my glider when she asked me about the molefoam I asked "The what?!" LOL Ooopppsss.... blush

But yes, the moleskin helps big time in allowing you to get the collar tight enough without choking her.
Posted By: pappy1264

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/18/06 01:15 PM

The noises you refer to, was it kind of a high pitched, shreik? Timmy makes a noise when he is 'flossing'. It goes right back in as soon as he stands up. But he does it a lot, usually when he is either waking or before going to sleep. Everything looks ok to me down there. Just wondering about the noise, though.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/18/06 01:21 PM

OMG that looks so painful ! Poor baby. I hope the baby gets well <3
Posted By: MizValorie

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/18/06 01:47 PM

I am glad it is healing already! I hope everything continues to progress Suz!
Posted By: Xfilefan

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/19/06 01:20 AM

Pappy, noises don't normally accompany flossing. Keep a very close eye on him for sm, and have an ecollar handy just in case. If it turns into a crab/hiss with a note of pain in it, get a collar on, and get him to the vet ASAP. Not sure if there's an issue, but if it's getting there, you want to be prepared before he damages himself.
Posted By: sugarglidersuz

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/19/06 10:48 AM

Update on Mareki:
This morning, sometime after 4:30, she managed to get her e-collar soaking wet (I assume via the help of the water bottle) and got it off again. I discovered this at about 5:30. Within the time that she got the collar off and I discovered it, she managed to attack herself again and removed part of the crystalized, healed tissue at the wound margin cry Needless to say, I made another e-collar and got it on her right away. She is now back in the collar and NOT happy with me tant That's okay, I'm not happy with her either right now. This just goes to show how quickly these little ones can damage themselves if not in an e-collar... shakehead It also goes to show that no matter how diligently we check on them every hour around the clock, they can still manage to trick us and get out of their collar in the interim...
Posted By: Keyosmama

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/19/06 11:54 AM

Oh no!! the little rascal frown i am keeping you and Mareki in my thoughts, i hope she gets to feelin a bit better soon and stops hurting herself the poor lil angel!

hug2 ' s to you and her..

Amanda and the Fuzziebottoms heart
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/19/06 12:05 PM

Oh ((((((Suz)))))
I am so sorry. I know how hard it is to care for them in a e-collar, I wish I lived closer so I could help you with her. You are in my thoughts and prayers as well as the gliders.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/19/06 02:39 PM

I can't even imagine how hard it would be to keep a glider in an ecollar. I pray it never happens to me. Suz, you and Mareki are always in my thoughts and prayers. hug2
Posted By: BeckiT

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/19/06 06:29 PM

Aw Suz! Poor Mareki, I was praying she would let it alone... Huge hugs headed your way!
Posted By: LSardou

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/19/06 11:01 PM

Hugs and prayers to you and Mareki Suz....I feel badly that you have to be under such stress, as well as Mareki. Hopefully the battle will be won, and she will get the idea that the collar is to help her.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/19/06 11:13 PM

~HUGS~ that poor baby! Im sending prayers and get well wishes your way

and for the question about saving the extra metacam (sorry this is a bit offtopic).....being a trained vet tech-i dont recommend giving any medicines without prior approval from a veterinarian. If you want to save after a previous vet visit then make sure you keep and eye on the expiration date but DONOT give any medications without being prescribed.Giving wrong doses and meds without really being needed could be harmful.If you take your furrbutt to the vet and the vet says yeah they need some of theat then you could say oh yeah i have whatever at home just make sure the vet knows what exactly you have casue even the same meds could have diffrent srtengths and you wouldnot want to over dose your little ones.
Posted By: sugarglidersuz

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/20/06 10:28 AM

I have never given meds without vet approval. I only save the meds that she tells me it is okay to do so with. Because Mareki had been overgrooming the area, the vet had told me to give MetaCam as needed if the overgrooming got worse and she told me the dosage to use.
I agree that using meds without vet approval and dosage is not advisable.

Mareki did not get her e-collar off in the last 24 hours. I went ahead and reapplied it with fresh duct tape this morning just to be on the safe side. Right now she is snoozing peacefully in her pouch on my lap.
Irrigating the wound and applying SSD ointment seems to be helping quite a bit. She actually seems to like the irrigation process (silly glider). It must feel soothing to her.
Posted By: BeckiT

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/20/06 01:48 PM

irrigated a healing wound like that is soothing, it helps relieve some of the itchiness that comes with the healing wink I had a horrible cut across my ankle last summer from falling over a laundry basket. Didn't realize it had even cut me until my hubby asked which kid spilled juice (wasn't juice, was blood, the cut required stitches and glue!) It itched horribly while it was healing, and it's really hard not to itch it! The irrigation helps soothe the itchy and irritation for a little bit at least and doesn't come with the chance of reopening the healed areas.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/20/06 09:05 PM

Oh Suz! I knew you had the vet approval Just someone had asked after on of your posts asking about saving the metacam after his boy got neutered in case he ever needed it. Sorry about the confussion! smile
Posted By: sugarglidersuz

Update: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/27/06 12:33 PM

It's been a few days since I posted about Mareki, so I thought I'd give everyone an update on her condition. She has gotten used to the e-collar and doesn't fight it anymore. Her wound is healing nicely. When I brought her to the vets for follow-up, she recommended that I clean the fur around the wound with a flea comb. The store was out of them, so I bought a nit comb instead. It has worked quite well for cleaning her fur. Not only around the wound site, but also all over since with the e-collar on she can't really groom herself.
This morning, when I was combing her, I noticed that her pouch was black and icky inside... Apparently, she got a piece of feces stuck in there and was unable to get it out. I cleaned it with a wet wipe and q-tips and then applied SSD ointment to it to hopefully prevent an infection from developing.
Having a glider in an e-collar long-term is definitely a learning experience for me. I have always taken their grooming practices for granted and never thought about what would happen if they couldn't do it for themselves... It's been a wake-up call, that's for sure.
Next week, when Mareki has her next vet appointment, if the wound is still not completely healed, the vet is going to debride the lumpy edges and suture them so that she is not left with a huge, lumpy scar. That will be good because I am afraid that a lumpy scar will only lead to further mutilation in the long run.
In spite of being in the e-collar, Mareki has gained weight - nothing stops her from getting to her food roflmao When I first brought her in to the vet for this wound, she was 170 grams. I weighed her on Tuesday of this week and she's up to 176 grams. I am certain this is because with the e-collar, she is not as active as normal. Any ideas about how to encourage her to exercise in spite of the collar?
I guess that's about it for now... laugh
Posted By: MizValorie

Re: Update: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/27/06 12:52 PM

So glad everything is slowly working out! Still keeping her and you in my thoughts and prayers.
Posted By: sugarglidersuz

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/27/06 01:08 PM

For those interested, I started a thread in Special Needs about Gliders in e-collars for long term care. In it, I go over some of the details of the things I have learned while taking care of Mareki...
Posted By: BeckiT

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/27/06 03:14 PM

Glad to hear she's getting better Suz, I'm sure this is a long hard road for both of you! Continued prayers for a full recovery smile
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/27/06 03:22 PM

So glad she is improving.

I have found that an eyelash comb and an eyebrow brush are great for grooming suggies. They have nice handles that make them easy to manuever.

Angel and The Suggies
Posted By: KattyM

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/28/06 11:46 PM

Wow, Suz! Big hug2 and prayers being sent your way. You deserve a good night's sleep, worry free. heart Is she able to run around at all, like during tent time with you? I know exercise is important to help with weight management. Can her food portion be decreased a teeny bit? Or is it not that big a deal that she's a little, uhm, fluffy, right now while she's healing? dunno
Posted By: sugarglidersuz

Re: Patagium Self-Mutilation (Pix attached) - 10/29/06 01:15 AM

Last night I did give her one hour of highly supervised, collar-free exercise time. Mainly she was in her wheel running like she had no tomorrow. When she would stop, she'd move towards her patagium, I'd gently nudge her and she'd start running again. It did seem that she enjoyed it. We'll do this 4-5 times per week until she can be without the collar. Hopefully this will help with her weight a little bit... dunno
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