Phenols in pine

What evidence, by that I mean peer review scientific jornals on the effects of phenols in cedar and possibly pine that there is advers effect on mammals or more specifically sugar gliders. I hear a lot of conjecture and people saying it is harmful but what evidence is there to back this up?

Chris, I don't know what evidence there is, so I can't answer your question. Sorry... hopefully someone who knows will be along soon to answer.

I know they're bad for small mammals but I don't know about Sugs. Since sugs are more fragile than mammals, I'd imagine it'd be harder on them.

All softwoods have phenols. Ceder and pine are both softwoods so... :S But, phenols are used in disinfectants, exfoliants, treating an ingrown nail, carbolic smoke balls, etc. And, that's the chemical found in soft woods. Not something you'd want to keep your pet in. =X

Here's some good sites about it...
http://www.afrma.org/rminfo2a.htm

http://members.aol.com/bunrabtoo/cedar.html

http://www.aracnet.com/~seagull/faq/whynotcedar.html

http://www.bio.davidson.edu/Courses/anphys/1999/Cook/Text.htm

And, according to this site, http://www.moondance-sugargliders.com/sugar_glider_plant-tree_information.htm
pine isn't good for sugs.

Personally, if it was under question, I'd avoid it just to be safe. But, that's up to you to decide.

Now then, I have a question for you because Hollis just pointed something out...why are you wanting scientific evidence done in a lab to support or deny the affect of pine/cedar shavings on animals? Most labs wouldn't waste their time on testing the theory. Yes, cedar and pine shavings could be a variable because it affects the organs, but, one lab has even written in their mandatory procedures that their lab mice can't be kept in the cedar and pine. You have a brain, don't abuse it. Think for yourself and decide based on that. If you don't think it's bad, keep using it. Just don't overlook the possibility of a glider stabbing themself in the eye with a shaving.

I don't know if this is scientific enough for you, but I found this fact sheet on the affect on humans. It also mentions a lot about how the phenols affect animals.

http://www.lakes-environmental.com/toxic/PHENOL.HTML

I dunno about you, but the possibility of convulsions, paralysis, enlarged liver, adverse affects on kidneys and the CNS, reduced fetal body weight, growth retardation, etc. are MORE than enough to keep me far away from the stuff.

Like Kiiru said, I doubt there's going to be a whole lot of published research on the effect of pine shavings on pets, much less sugar gliders. But just because it isn't published doesn't mean that it can't be true.

It's your gliders, so it's up to you, but that's just what I found and my opinion.

I have seen a necropsy on a guinea pig who died only a week after they bought it, yes, they bought it from me and despite being told NOT to use pine, they did, so they brought it back for a refund. Since it was healthy when it left my store, we did a necropsy on it. There WAS a FLIM coating in the lungs, the tissue was sent out and it came back confirmed it was a toxic *oil layer* (I dont have the *scientific name* for this, that caused the death in this pig. where did this come from??? PINE SHAVINGS after just ONE WEEK...

If it can happen to a guinea pig, just think what it can do to a glider.

Chris, this surprises me for YOU of all people to ask this type of question...

I wanted scientific evidence, because as I said earlier in the place I worked, that had over 200k mice they used pine and never had problems. I wanted to separate hearsay from fact. But in-light of the published studies that you presented I must agree that pine has been linked to adverse effects in mice and various other small mammals. Therefore I will stop using it and instead look into using a different medium.

Hello Chris,
I have seen your beautiful cage! I have a 6' by 4' by 3' cage, and I use a "Neat Sheet". These are sold in the kid section, to use under high-chairs, at the beach, etc. It absorbs really well, can easily be cut to the perfect size of your cage, and are washer & dryer friendly. I actually like it much better than fleece for the bottom, and they have little weights sewn in to the corners and the sides to keep it down (for those playful fellows that want to move it!)

Maybe this will help?
The Neat Sheet

Has anyone used Cozy'Fresh? It's sold in tractor and feed stores. My son uses it in his guinea pigs cage. It is a pine pellet that says its veterinarian approved and environmentally friendly. Just wanted to know if anyone has tried this product before? I know of a person that breeds sugar gliders that uses this. But I'm not too sure about it so I haven't used it yet for my gliders.

If you're wanting to use a wood product, you can still use aspen. I personally wouldn't use pine pellets littecritters - they sell those little edible huts as 100% safe too, but, they're not because they're made up of pine shavings!

yea i was planning on using aspen originally the only reason i used pine in the first place was because my pet store was out. I have ordered some specially in and should be here soon. For now i am using white paper towels. Ill post more pictures of my cage in the other post when I get the aspen in.

to put it plain and simple to anyone who wants to own an exotic pet. dont try to make it simple because they are not simple. if you want a glider they come with the high maintenance lifesyle. i work hard keeping 4 cages clean. its not easy and i dont ever plan on trying to find out why and how and what i can do to simplify everything. because there is not simple answers to exotic care. i use newspaper in my trays which they can not reach and clean them daily and will always do. i know there are simpler things out there but these guys mean to much to me. and i dont want to find out the why and why i cant use a simpler product in my trays or to clean my cages. i like to stick with the tested tried and true and safe solutions. and its that simple

ooh, ooh, I just had a GREAT idea for you Chris! The bottom of my cage has a pull out tray, I made from pvc coated shelving. I was thinking, you could make a pull out floor (MUCH easier to do your major cleaning, just take it out!). It could be made like those little shelves they make to stack (you know, with feet), and then you could use all types of substrate under the "floor", including none! (just make sure they can't reach it).