GliderCENTRAL

SCURVY????

Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

SCURVY???? - 07/04/07 01:46 AM

Anyone ever have a glider with scurvy? My Cheddar ( a farily new rescue) was diagnosed with scruvy today - along with a host of resultant issues.

I have a GREAT and knowledgeable vet who spent a good deal of time educating me on all of the suppliments and medications and modifications to consider, but I was hoping to hear from someone who has experienced this. What do I expect from here? Anything I should be especially alert for?

Goodness - Cheddar and Jackie Chan both with major issues at the same time - So it goes with rescues, right?
Posted By: JayAndDiana

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/04/07 01:53 AM

Sorry you are going through this Val!! I can't be of much help except for lots of well wishes (been following along with Jackie Chan's story) for all of you!! And hope things turn around soon for Cheddar (LOVE the name)!
Posted By: sugarglidersuz

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/04/07 01:39 PM

I believe that scurvy is essentially the same thing as Hind Leg Paralysis... you can read more about it by going to my page Hind Leg Paralysis... There are many different names for the same condition but they all describe damage due to calcium imbalance.
Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/04/07 02:00 PM

Really? Is scurvy in gliders different than it is in people? I thought that it was a lack of vitamin C that causes softening of the gums, tooth decay and bleeding of the mucous membranes.

Cheddar has no paresis - he is completely mobile - all 4 limbs working great and not even any limping. However, all of his teeth are abscessed and he is lethargic.
Posted By: sugarglidersuz

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/04/07 02:38 PM

Oops! You're right - scurvy IS from lack of Vitamin C... see, that's what I get for posting before my first cup of coffee in the morning shakehead Sorry frown
Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/04/07 03:27 PM

Not a problem Suz

I just panicked because i know that you have a wealth of information about gliders and illness and such and I thought "oh no, I am treating this all wrong!"

OK, deep breath and all is well.....
Posted By: sugarglidersuz

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/04/07 03:47 PM

smile
Posted By: BlndGrl8

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/04/07 04:04 PM

Oh Val, I'm sorry to hear about little Cheddar hug2 I will pray that he will start to feel better and that he knows you will take the best care of him! You are a good suggie mom and you are doing everything you can for him. ( I love the name Cheddar, it is so cute!)
Posted By: Dancing

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/04/07 04:50 PM

Way to go Suz! shakehead Give people a heart attack first thing in the morning. Good job! roflmao roflmao roflmao


I've never heard of a glider getting scurvy specifically but I do know that so often people get hung up on the calcium to phophrous ratio in diets that they forget the need for other essential vitamins and minerals.

I would love to know more about this.
What tests did your vet preform?
How did he determine it was scurvy?
What symptoms does/did your glider have?
Are there other posible issues or is it definately scurvy?
What is your vets recommended treatment?

As I said, I've not heard of this before and would love the chance to learn. Although I'm sorry your glider is going through this, this is an educational opportunity for all of us. Please keep us updated with his progress.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/04/07 05:40 PM

Let us know how it goes!...I have never had a glider with scurvey, so I am interested to hear about it.
Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/04/07 08:02 PM

WEll, I cannot say that I know too much either. Although, it does not surprise me that this would pop up in MY house.... I seem to be a magnet for the most unusual situations. I cannot tell you how many times a vet has said to me "I have never seen this before, but...."

Anyway, here is the story as I know it:

Cheddar is a new rescue - BTW thanks to all of you that love the name. We have a fondness for naming our animals after food - especially food off the Sonic Drive in menu - Anyway, I have been dealing VERY heavily with all of Jackie Chan's issues and have been letting Cheddar settle in. So, he has been here for a couple of weeks almost. IN this time, I noticed that he was not just spitting out little pieces of food, but that he was tossing aside whole pieces of fruit, veggies etc. He was put on the BML as soon as he came here because I suspected that his previous owner was not feeding him well. She literally dropped him off and said "I don't know about his tail. He loves those yogurt things." and she left!

Back on topic: So, I sat and watched him one of the nights that I was up all night with Jackie Chan. He eats most of the BML mix but just licks everything else and then tosses it aside. I first thought that maybe the previous owner had had his teeth filed or that he had some mouth pain or something. So, the next night I pureed all the fruit and veggies for him. He ate pretty good that night, but still not so well. In the last day or two, I noticed that he was a bit "sluggish". He wasn't playing as much as the other gliders, and no running or jumping, just walking. So, I called the vet - he felt that Cheddar would be OK to wait to come in the next day with Jackie when Jackie went for his post-op follow up visit.

So, we get to the vet and I tell him that Cheddar really needs a good looking over. I agreed to let them anesthesize him and take some x-rays. WELL----45 minutes later they returned. I was really getting worried.

The first thing out of Dr. G's mouth was "that glider's mouth is in worse shape than I Have ever seen."

Basically, here is what I know: When they were able to open his mouth, his entire oral cavity was covered in pus. They cleaned him up, thinking that his tongue was abscessed, but found that it was that ALL of his teeth are abscessed. He took some blood and x-rays of the rest of the body. Came back to tell me that he is suffering from what amounts to scurvy. Lack of vit. C for sure, but that it had lead to such a severe infection that he may already be in systemic septic infection. So, after much debate, I agreed to let Dr. G. place him on an antibiotic not tried on gliders before (at least to his knowledge). However, this antibiotic has been very successful with knocking out oral infection in other small animals fairly quickly. ALso, he was given a pain shot and we have some pain meds to use for the next few days (sorry I don't have the names on the meds, I am visiting family today and don't have the bottles with me). Also, I have a vitamin C suppliment that has to be placed in his water, and he is getting increased fruit with medication administrations - with a focus on fruits that are glider safe AND high in vit. C.

We are back to daily phone consults with the vet (just finished them with Jackie a week ago, but oh, well). ANd, Cheddar will go in frequently for check ups. Dr. G. feels that if we can get the infection under control, then he can assess whether any teeth need to be pulled and if there are any long-term effects from the vit. C. deficiency.

I continue to puree all of his food for now. Also, I have him with me all day - Jackie too, and they are not bonded to each other, so I am wearing two pouches everywhere. I'm sure that doesn't look strange at all!
Posted By: BlndGrl8

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/04/07 08:07 PM

Oh my Gosh Val, what a story!! I feel for poor little Cheddar frown his poor mouth cry Please give him some hugs from me! hug2 What kind of fruits are high in Vitamin C? I want to make sure mine are getting Vitamin C too!!
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/04/07 08:16 PM

Citrus. High in Vitamin C, but also not super-recommended for gliders. High in acid, too.

However, I think most diets say you can feed citrus once or twice a week? Check ...

I'm shocked to hear about scurvy in a glider ... However, I've heard SO much about gliders with tooth problems ... it makes me wonder if this is an underlying cause?

I'm super paranoid about all tooth problems - humans, dogs, cats ... gliders! It is just a major fear for me, I don't know why! I can't stand bad teeth in people. I'm one of those people on a first name basis with my dentist ...

Anyway - we'll be adding in some weekly citrus!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/04/07 08:20 PM

Here is a list of fruits and veggies that are high in vitamin c. thumb
Fruits and Vegetables High In Vitamin C
Posted By: glidrz5

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/05/07 12:48 AM

Val, my vet Dr Kaiser has had quite a bit of experience with Dental problems in gliders. He delt with my Sassy for a year through his peridontal issues & also with Nicky when his front incisors started getting bad. I'm sure he wouldn't mind talking to Dr G if he would like to talk to a vet with "prior experience" in pulling/removing glider teeth. I know that Jen (Xfilefan) also has a vet who has been dealing with peridontal issues with her glider.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/05/07 03:20 AM

*winces* ouch! I had an abcessed tooth and I can't imagine how much pain that little one must be going through with all of those teeth in that condition! I do hope that everything will become better for Cheddar with the meds.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/05/07 03:24 AM

I cant wait to hear "Everything is better with Cheddar" tounge
Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/05/07 03:58 AM

roflmao

Thank you all for your concern and advice. Cheddar is doing a bit better - he seems to have more "pep in his step" after just 24 hours on the antibiotic. Hopefully, this and the suppliment will clear up any issues and we will not have to have any of his teeth removed.

Any more advice or ideas would be welcome. I will keep you posted on his progress.
Posted By: ValkyrieMome

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/05/07 04:07 AM

I have no advice, but please do keep us updated!
Posted By: glidrz5

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/05/07 09:43 AM

Val, does your vet have you using any kind of an antibacterial rinse? I know that Dr Kaiser has me use a Chlorahexadine Rinse on my kids. For the back teeth, I'll put some into a syringe & squirt it on their teeth & then let them "gargle" it by shaking their heads. For the front incisors I'll dip a Q-Tip into the rinse & gently brush the teeth front & back to make sure that nothing is lodged between them that might irritate their gums. It has seemed to help with my guys & if nothing else it helps to keep their mouth a little cleaner.
Posted By: mattysmom

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/05/07 02:12 PM

British sailors are called "limeys" because they added limes to the food supplies they carried with them to avoid scurvy. I thought scurvy was bone-related. I guess it could include teeth too.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/05/07 03:26 PM

Adequate vitamin C is super important. I thought that gliders were one of the animals that can make their own vit C.. . If so, then there is some reason why yours isn't.

Since vitamins and minerals are synergistic, you may want to talk to your vet about the amount of C vs the amount of supplemental iron you are feeding if iron is in the vitamin/mineral supplement you are using. Vitamin C increases the bioavailability of iron.

Also CoQ10 is considered by some to be very helpful in maintaining healthy gums. Maybe your vet uses this supplement in miniscule amts too?
Posted By: Gossamer

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/05/07 04:01 PM

Scurvy is common in guinea pigs because they can't synthasize their own vitamin C, I thought gliders could? scurvy usually manifests itself with difficulty moving. These are the symptoms in GP's

Lethargy, weakness, unwillingness to move
Hopping instead of walking, enlarged or stiff limb joints
Not eating, loss of weight
Diarrhea
Eye and nose discharge
Rough coat
Tenderness to touch (may cry out in pain if restrained), poor flesh condition
Internal skeletal-muscular hemorrhage


It is a surprising diagnosis to me.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: SCURVY???? - 07/05/07 08:34 PM

Same symptoms humans, primates, and pigs with scurvy have!

Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Re: SCURVY???? UPDATE - 07/13/07 02:37 AM

Cheddar had a check up with the vet yesterday. He is not out of the woods yet, but he no longer has a mouth full of pus! He still has many loose teeth, but we are delaying any decision about pulling them until the infection is cleared up. Cheddar still requires pureed food, but he is attempting to eat solid food now - a few peas each day. However, it appears that this is still painful. So, we remain on antibiotics, pain meds, vit. C suppliment and oral rinse.

He is much more active than he had been, so that is good. Dr. G. believes that he will make a full recovery! Yippie!
Posted By: Xglider

Re: SCURVY???? UPDATE - 07/13/07 03:06 AM

Thanks for the update and glad it sounds like good news!!
hug2
Posted By: glidrz5

Re: SCURVY???? UPDATE - 07/13/07 01:11 PM

Val, if you ever want to talk to someone who's been there, I'm here for you & I know Jen will be too. Dental problems in gliders are awful both for your baby & you because you feel sooooo frustrated that you can't make it all better for your baby. I've been there so I know how you are feeling. My Sassy battled his peridontal problems for a year and then his son developed the issues with his front incisors. I never did have pus (thank God) but I know Jen has delt with that with her little girl, but I do know the pain & frustration & stress that you are going through.
Posted By: LSardou

Re: SCURVY???? UPDATE - 07/13/07 01:19 PM

Val, It sounds like you and your vet have everything under control with Cheedar. I'm so sorry that you have to deal with another health issue in addition to sweet little Jacki Chan....I'm sure your nerves are frazzeled at this point with worry and stress, please know that there are alot of people who care (including myself) and if you ever need to talk we are here for you.
Keeping both of your babies in my thoughts and prayers.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: SCURVY???? UPDATE - 07/13/07 02:02 PM

How lucky Cheddar and Jackie Chan are to have you!!! I'm glad he seems to be doing better.
Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Re: SCURVY???? UPDATE - 07/13/07 05:30 PM

You guys!!!!!!!!! I guess the stress has been more than I have been willing to admit to myself because I am crying like a baby just in reading the sweet things you guys have said.

THANK YOU for just listening and being there. I wish that I had such a good update to post about Jackie Chan as well, but that is another story.

I thought that I was strong enough for all of this.... after all, I have three dogs and a son with special needs as well - needless to say, I have the vet on speed dial and when I call they just say "hi Val, who do you need to bring in today." Sad, huh? I guess it is not that I am not strong, I just need to allow myself to cry and to rest from time to time. Jackie's needs have really taken a toll on me - I have not slept more than 2 1/2 hours at a time for weeks now, so maybe I am just tired. - And, I am in the midst of a lupus flare up. When it rains it pours!

Anyway-- THANKS! You guys are the best! I am believing that Cheddar is on his way to a full recovery, but it is nice to have others to talk to about it.
Posted By: LSardou

Re: SCURVY???? UPDATE - 07/13/07 11:45 PM

Hang in there girl! Your doing great...Trust that one day this will pass, and these little ones will be well and happy so that you can enjoy the happier side of their lifes purpose. Again, I am so sorry that this is a difficult time for you, if you need to talk please give me a call.
hug2
Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Re: SCURVY???? UPDATE - 07/17/07 02:30 AM

Just wanted to share:

Last night, Cheddar ate two small pieces of cantelope! His FIRST SOLID FOOD since he came to me!!!! jump At this point, in this house, we celebrate every little victory.

Maybe, just maybe, he is having less pain and is about to turn the corner to a full and speedy recovery. Either that, or he really loves cantelope! smirk Wouldn't it be just great if we don't have to remove any teeth????
Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Re: SCURVY???? UPDATE - 01/04/08 05:21 PM

Just wanted to do a quick update here as well....

Since being diagnosed, Cheddar has lost 11 teeth that we know of. He now has no upper molars on the left side and no lower molars on the right side. Never fear, though... He is doing fantastic.

He remains on a vit. c suppliment (have had to try many to find one that works well) and on a diet of foods with high vit. c. He occasionally has some pain and will not eat solid foods, but over all is eating like any other glider. In fact, about a week ago - for the FIRST TIME, Cheddar ate a mealie! Since then, he has had one or two per day. I am taking this as a sign that he has no tooth pain at the moment!

He will continue with quarterly vet checks just to check out his teeth. Otherwise, he is happy and healthy and doing great!
Posted By: BeckiT

Re: SCURVY???? UPDATE - 01/04/08 07:28 PM

Thank You for the update! hug2
Posted By: LSardou

Re: SCURVY???? UPDATE - 01/04/08 07:37 PM

clap That is wonderful news Val! Keep up all the good work that you do with these little ones! Hugs and Kisses to them all!
Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Scurvy - 01/15/08 10:49 PM

This is a relatively new diagnosis in the glider world, so I only know so much as my experience with Cheddar has taught me. However, I think it is beneficial and important for us all to be aware, in case it ever pops up in your home. So, I thought I would post a bit of information in hopes that it might help someone in the future and that it might spark some discussion.

Cheddar was diagnosed with Scurvy in July of 2007. He was no longer eating solid food, he was lethargic, looked bad, was loosing weight and had very slow movements. Upon examination, the vet found that ALL of his 40 teeth were loose and All were abscessed. He was puzzled with the diagnosis, but also said that he could not ignore what he was seeing.

Scurvy is defined as a deficiency disease that results from poor or insufficient intake of vitamin C (i.e. asorbic acid). Vitamin C is required for collagen synthesis in humans. It was once very common among sailors, pirates and others who were at sea for longer periods of time than perishable fruits and vegetables could be stored. Scurvy leads to spongy gums, bleeding from all mucous membranes, liver spots, pallor, and partial immobility. In advanced scurvy, there are open wounds and loss of teeth. Untreated scurvy is fatal. However, all that is required for full recovery is resumed intake of vitamin C.

Humans, primates & guinea pigs lack the ability to synthesize their own vitamin C. It is thought that sugar gliders possess this synthesizing gene, so scurvy should not be seen in sugar gliders. However, since we are still learning about gliders, there is the possibility that they, too, lack this ability. The question remains with Cheddar: Is there some other underlying cause to his disease that we have not been able to detect? or Is further research necessary to fully comprehend the sugar glider's ability to synthesize and metabolize vitamin C?

A study published in THE AMERICAN JOURNAL OF CLINICAL NUTRITION in June of 2003 reported that a "combined deficiency of vitamins E & C causes paralysis and death in guinea pigs." Of the g.p.s who were denied the vitamins, 88% died. Many presented with signs of paralysis described as follows: "First, they became paralyzed in the hind limbs [sound familiar?]. Within a few hours, the paralysis progressed to include all 4 limbs and caused difficulty in breathing..." Just speculation on my part, but I wonder if vitamin C metabolism/synthesis may be a larger concern in sugar gliders than we currently think. ??? Is it possible that some of the HLP we see and/or some of the teeth problems we see are related, in part, to vitamin C intake?

Signs/symptoms of scurvy:

spongy gums which often lead to tooth loss
pallor
weakness
Lethargy
Dry, scaley skin
Loss of Appetite
Swollen joints
Rough coat
Diarrhea
Weight Loss
Unusual Discharge
Opening of healed scars and/or separation of knitted bone fractures
bleeding from mucous membranes

Of these, Cheddar presented with weakness, lethargy, dry skin, loss of appetite, rough coat, weight loss and tooth loss.

The treatment for scurvy is initially high doses of vitamin C followed by deliberate vitamin C intake daily for life. Cheddar remains on vitamin C suppliments daily and will indefinately. He has lost 11 of his teeth (that we know of) so far, and he routinely experiences a tightening and then loosening of his teeth. He must be watched daily to ensure that he is eating solid food, using his teeth, not showing signs of pain and drinking his vitamin supplimented water.
Prevention is easy: Feed a diet that includes vitamin C. It is that easy.

Fruits and Vegetables rich in vitamin C:
oranges
lemons
Cantaloupe
currants
guava
kiwi
papaya
tomatoes
strawberries
bell pepper
broccoli
potatoes
spinach
Posted By: pappy1264

Re: Scurvy - 01/15/08 11:08 PM

Thank you for this info. I started giving my gliders oranges a while ago (they won't touch canteloupe) and they LOVE IT! They also really love tomatoes, so that is a good thing.
Posted By: Xfilefan

Re: Scurvy - 01/17/08 04:22 PM

Lyah got a diet that included canteoupe daily, papaya and potato frequently, and vit. C supplements. She exhibited none of the typical symptoms of scurvy but still lost all her teeth but 9, and I think part of what led to her death of pneumonia (her face was slightly swollen, but the vet couldn't find anything wrong in her mouth-but also didn't have much time with her at that point) She'd been suffering mouth infections/abscesses/tooth loss for months frown I think many captive gliders don't get enough C-mine are all getting periodic supplements. Great post!
Posted By: Cora

Re: Scurvy - 01/17/08 06:26 PM

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............................OK I thought oranges because of the acid or whatever should only be given occ. as well as tomatoes.........................can anyone help me here???? I actually told some one the other day who was feeding her glider oranges daily should feed them only occ. course she is using the BML diet and those are not listed with that part. diet anyway.

Thanks for info on scurvy....................greeat stuff!!!
Posted By: Xfilefan

Re: Scurvy - 01/17/08 06:43 PM

Many gliders acidic fruits will give bad diarrhea. I very rarely feed them to mine. They make a great chewable apple flavored supplement that's great tho, that I got from my vet. She also said to beware of the liquid drops in water-they are good for about half an hour after you put them in and that's it-so pretty worthless overall. There are other vit. C rich fruits like canteloupe, papaya, and potato (that gliders tend to really like) for foods.
Posted By: CharmedSuggies

Re: Scurvy - 01/17/08 07:26 PM

So, baby leaf spinach is ok right? of course as long as you wash real good first.
Posted By: Jackie_Chans_Mom

Re: Scurvy - 01/17/08 08:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Xfilefan
They make a great chewable apple flavored supplement that's great tho, that I got from my vet.


I think I am using this same supplement. I have used it in so many different ways, but Cheddar (and all my gliders) are content to just eat it as is.

I have never given my gliders oranges, but i do give tomatoes on occasion. My babies seem to never get sick of canteloupe & potato. Broccoli is a hit or miss here.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Scurvy - 01/17/08 08:36 PM

What is the name of this flavored chewable supplement? Is it available only at the vets?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Scurvy - 01/17/08 09:27 PM

Whoa, thanks so much for the info! This will most definetly come in handy for all of us. I used to feed Nicias grapefruit pieces instead of oranges, seeing that he liked grapefruit a little better.
Posted By: kelii

Re: Scurvy - 01/18/08 12:19 AM

Can you give gliders the same suppliment you give ginea pigs? I'm talking about the stuff you put in their water.
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