HLP and SM.... Help please....

Can someone tell me what to do next....
My Darby has the very early signs of HLP. I noticed last night and got her to the vet today (they don't have emergency hours). The sad thing is that between my discovering her "funny walk" last night and getting her to the vet today, she chewed a gaping wound into her shoulder.
The vet performed surgery and gave sub-q fluids and liquid calcium. He gave me an antibiotic, a painkiller, and a liquid calcium suppliment. Now here's the question....
What do I do while she recovers? Should I keep her separate from her cagemate? I'm worried that he may aggrevate her wounds because I saw him licking her before we left for the vet. Also, how do I keep her from SM-ing while she recovers? She is very crabby and bitey.... and I can't wrap her wound with self-stick gauze, so I have no idea how to get an e-collar on her. (Also, how do I make one?)
Also... I'm not sure how this happened in the first place. I feed the HPW diet with veggie relish and fruit relish. They receive a couple mealies each per night. And gliderade on occasion. Where did I go wrong? The vet suggests putting rep-cal in their food. How much is too much? (He wasn't sure on the diet.)
Anyway, any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
~Amber~

One sec, looking up E-collar instructions for you...Will reply in a second

http://www.suzsugargliders.com/ecollar.htm

I've been reading posts on gliders who have SMed, and I believe they need to be in a hospital cage away from the other gliders. Those wounds are serious, and sadly..Can cause death. I think she needs to be removed if the cage mates mess with it. To keep her from SMing, try the Ecollar. That should help..but you'll probably need help putting it on.

Personally, when I had to give my cat medicine I had to burrito wrap her. I had to do her medicines and such myself, and that was the only way I could hold her still long enouigh to do it without her thrashing and hurting herself. I dont know if you could with that wound though, it might hurt her. Its your choice really, depending on if you have help or not.

I have no experience with SMing gliders. Or those with HLP...I hope someone comes along to help. People have added extra levels to the cages to break falls, I know. Good luck with your babb\y. How old is she, if you dont mind me asking?

http://www.suzsugargliders.com/ecollar.htm

Sorry about the double post mods! I just wanted to send the link fast! Suz has a bunch of great info on her site. If you have any questions you can call her, as well! I think she takes calls ALLLL of the time! Good luck on your little one!

Thank you for the E-Collar link! Suz's page is great!!
Any suggestions about what to do from here?

HLP is not only caused by dietary deficiency. Often it is caused by a bacterial infection which will inhibit calcium uptake. Did the vet give you an antibiotic? Did he/she test for infection? I would suggest that a liquid calcium suppliment in a measured dose would be more effective than sprinkling rep-cal on food.

E-collar and separation from cage mates is essential during healing. Are you SURE she opened herself up? Is it possible one of your other gliders opened her up? She will need to be away from her cage mate(s) until she is completely healed and fur has grown back. She can be in a cage next to them, though. You will need to modify the cage for her if she is showing signs of HLP and if she is in an e-collar.

Where in MI are you? you might be able to drive over and pick up a collar from Karen. She can also help you with setting up the cage.

Why don't you give me a call at 806-274-9177. I'm happy to help.

I would seperate her from her cage mate for now until she heals up. I would keep her as close as possible at all times, as well, which Im sure you will. If you havent, I would have the vet do a fecal exam, bacterial culture, maybe a blood test analysis, etc....

What diet is she on, if you dont mind me asking. If shes on BML then, yes, you do need the RepCal supllement but if shes on HPW then theres no need.

Edit: Sorry... I just saw the diet when I reread your post. In that case, then, no you dont need the RepCal!

Thank you so much! I think I'm going to make an e-collar now that I know how (I'm pretty handy with that kind of thing...)
The vet did give me an antibiotic (Baytril).... I hope that does the trick. Meanwhile, she will stay in quarantine. And no... I don't know if she did it or if Diego did it to her. He is a very sweet glider, but maybe because he could tell that something was wrong with her.... could he have done that to her?
I'm rushing off to make my e-collar now and give her some more pain meds.... the poor thing. Thank you everyone!
~Amber~

Yeah... Its very possible he could have done that to her but you wont know unless you see it. Thanks for getting on here as fast as you could to get help! Im sure you are doing great! Keep up the good work and let us know how things progress with your sweet girl! Give her a for me! Did you talk to Val on a good cage set up for her?

If a bacterial infection is causing this, her cagemate will need to be treated with antibotics also or he could suffer the same too.

Was a fecal float and smear done to check for bacteria? If not, it needs to be done.
I noticed you had an add for a joey for sale, is this joey her baby? If so, he will need to be checked also. He is very young and should it be a bacteria, it would be very threating to him.

Any update on this little one?

I spoke with her at length last night. She should be picking up a snap e-collar and a pouch protector pouch from Karen today. She had already made an e-collar. She seems to really be listening and trying to do what is best. It is still uncertain whether the glider was SMing or whether the cage mate opened her up. She only ever saw the cage mate cleaning the wound.

She was given antibiotics, pain meds and a calcium suppliment. She is not that far from Dr. G, so I suggested that she take the glider to him if there are any further issues.

Very good! Im glad she seems to REALLY want to help this little one! Thanks, Val! You are AWESOME!!!

Thanks Val.

I was wondering if the little one that is listed in the classifieds here, the one where the mother groomed/ate his ears off was the joey of this glider?

Wonder if there has been an issue going on for a while with these babies, I don't know maybe you could ask her Val.

Hello again...
I don't have internet at home yet, so I can only get on when I run down to Panera with my laptop.
Anyway, no.... the joey is not from this pair. Darby's cagemate, Diego, is her brother and he is neutered. My little joey is from a different pair in a totally different cage.
I did speak to Val last night and she gave me some great advice. I'm now giving Darby her meds in some yogurt which she seems to like. All four (and a half) of my gliders are on HPW... so Val also suggested that it must be a bacterial infection. Could the bacteria have come from any of the foods I feed them (like mealies) or could it be something she had before I got them? I've had this pair for about two months now.
As far as diet, besides the HPW, they get veggie relish (frozen bagged veggies that I dice in a food processor) and diced fruit. The veggies are usually carrots, green beans, broccoli, cauliflower, and peas. (They did get a bit of corn too, but I've cut that out because of the high fat content.) The fruits are usually mango, blueberries, apple, and pineapple. All fruits (except the pineapple, of course) are washed and rinsed thoroughly with a non-toxic spray-on veggie wash (called "Fit" I think...). Their mealies are the canned, dried kind from Jurassic.
Any ideas what might have caused this bacteria so that I can prevent it in the furture? I love my babies and I feel that I take very good care of them, so this whole ordeal was a surprise for me!
~Amber~

Without a C&S, you can't know for sure that it is a bacteria, or what type of bacteria it is. I felt that was probably the cause of the HLP symptoms because I know HPW has plenty of calcium.

Yes, it is possible that this all started before you got them. But, for now, the important thing is to get them well now. It would not hurt to have Dr.G do some testing for infection. This would also help you to be sure that you are using the most effective antibiotic.

Big, HUGE hugs to you and Darby. I'm glad to hear she is doing a bit better.

Just like with people, bacterial infections come along from a variety of possible sources-some are external, such as transfer into their environment by us, or what grows normally on discarded food and waste in the cage-so general cleanness is important, and some is internal such as stress causing an overgrowth of otherwise normal bacteria in the system to proportions that reach the level of infection when it's more than the body can tolerate. If the immune system gets compromised for some reason-stress, or just a 'down' day that can act as a trigger, an infection can get a foothold.

There is no way to prevent bacterial infection 100%, as bacteria live in, on, and around us. A completely sterile environment isn't good for us or them, because our immune system weakens if it never has to 'keep in shape' dealing with the normal run of them. But to prevent unusual numbers of infections, general cleanliness, washing your hands between handling gliders or things from different cages, avoid cross contamination scenarios and keep the cages/liners clean regularly. That's really all you can do. Infections, whether in the gut or things like a UTI, are going to happen no matter what here and there-it's just part of life.

The best defense is to know signs your glider is ill or in distress as early as possible and going to the vet as soon as you suspect something isn't right, knowing what tests to ask for and what meds commonly are given-and with gliders warning signs can be subtle in the extreme-so the better you know your gliders the sooner you'll catch when something is off even a little.

As stated above, at least a slide and gram/wright stain diagnosis, culture if possible, is needed to determine a bacterial infection, and what type it is. If that can't be done a vet will sometimes 'shotgun' treat with a broad spectrum antibiotic based on an educated guess that infection is likely, and what type is likely.

As long as the glider is actually EATING the diet given, the second most common cause of HLP is when it is secondary to infection.

I would also recommend a fecal float and smear be run to be sure there isn't a protozoa or parasite as the root cause also, if that has not been done. That can also help diagnose other types of bacterial infection that can affect the gut.

Thank you very much!! Great information Xfilefan... thank you!

If anyone can give me advice...
Read the beginning of this post for the backstory. My Darby is doing okay - her wound is healing very well, I think, but there is a hard scab. Is this from the glue? The doc said that he used the kind of stitches that dissolve and that there is no need to bring her in to have them out. Will the scab or glue just fall off? It's quite sizeable and she hasn't been grooming herself, so I don't know if it's healing, healed, or none of the above.
Also, I've tried to groom her with a warm, damp piece of fleece, but she objects profusely. The problem is that she is not bonded to me. She's the crabbiest glider I bet any of you have ever met. Her previous owner never touched her. She crabs if you put your hand in the cage, if you give her food, if you touch her cage pouch... anything. The only thing that is good about that is that it's easier to give her the meds because I can drop a bit in her mouth when she's crabbing at me (she won't touch the med-mixed-yogurt anymore).
It's heartbreaking because she was getting so much better about the crabbing before she got sick. She would only do it if you startled her by looking in her pouch when she was asleep. I tried carrying her in a bonding pouch before she got sick, and you would have thought that I was killing her!
Anyway, when can I put her back with her cagemate? The HLP seemed to go away completely within a week, but I was more worried about the wound. How can I tell that she's better? I'm worried that it may be months before that scab falls off. Do I have to keep her from him until then? I think that she's lonely. She never plays. I've tried putting them together for tent time and she hides the whole time. When I hid her pouch, she seemed to panic and tried to hide under my leg. I think she'd be so much better if she was in her usual cage. But when? And how do I reintroduce them when it is time?
And worse yet... what if Diego was the one who chewed on her in the first place? How can I know? It's all so scary and sad....

Sorry for writing a novel...

Amber -
You really can't put her back in until she is completely healed and the fur has started to grow back. If you put her back in too early, Diego will groom her and may open the incision site back up. Unfortunately, a tail amputation is a major surgery, and it just MAY be months before you can put them back together. Most likely, it is a scab that you are seeing.

Continue to try to let them have supervised play time together. AND, keep their cages RIGHT next to each other. This should help with her loneliness.

Some gliders are just more vocal than others - just like some people are more talkative than others. Crabbing is how they warn us - sometimes even the most bonded of gliders remains very crabby - they crab when they are frightened and some are more easily frightened than others. The measure of bonding is not whether or not she is crabbing, but that she is not lunging and biting and that she is letting you handle her.

If she needs to be bathed, then I would use a cottonelle wipe that is warmed a few seconds in the microwave. Once she is no longer in the collar, she will clean herself up nice and pretty.

Her tail wasn't amputated. You must be thinking of someone else... her shoulder was chewed open. And she hasn't been in a collar because she won't keep it on - no matter how tight we have it she seems to be able to get out. She's Houdini. We've gone through sheets and sheets of moleskin. But, she's never touched the wound, so we've just given up on fighting with her about the collar. And it sort of solidifies in my mind that Diego did it to her.
But... that does worry me more. Since she hasn't been in a collar, why isn't she grooming? She doesn't have poo or anything on her, but her fur just seems to separate more. Do you know what I mean? It parts like cracks in the desert mud... Maybe she is grooming but isn't doing a good job of it?

Whoops, sorry.

Regardless, she can't be put back in with Diego until she is fully healed and fur has started to grow back. Are you SURE this was not a mating wound?

When you took her to the vet, did they test for anything? The reason that I ask is because gliders have been known to try to chew illness (tumors, infection, etc) out of their mates. So, that my be why Diego chewed on her. It is also possible that she got a scratch from something in the cage and groomed it (or Diego groomed it) until it opened up.

I have noticed with my gliders that when they are unwell or on antibiotics, their fur does look cracked. Some gliders just have cracked looking fur - you know, like some people have curly hair. There has been some talk that cracked fur indicates illness/poor health (which I do not think is always the case), and in your case, you KNOW she is not yet well. So, I would not worry about that at all.

When a glider is ill, they groom themselves very little or not at all.

Has this little one been back to the vet for a recheck? If not, it might be a good idea to take her back in and let the vet take a look at her progress.

You are right in thinking that her cagemate did this to her, was probably over aggessive in mating. Forgive me for not reading back over this, but is he neutered? You may want to consider having him neutered while they are apart and when she can go back in with him, hopefully this won't happen again.

As far as the crabbing, I have 2 gliders that sound like a swarm of bees, but that is all they do. They are the sweetest babies and have never bitten me, just alot of noise. I call them my guard gliders and you may just have a guard glider too. Doesn't mean she doesn't love you or won't bond to you, just means she likes to make noise.

Darby is definitely noisey! Unfortunately, since she's been sick, she also bites and lunges.
I don't know if it was a mating wound. He's neutered and has been for a while (they are 3 years old). Their old owner said that he was neutered when she got them as joeys. I know that they can still try to mate though... would he have gotten that aggressive trying to mate with her even though he has no you-know-whats?
It was a BIG wound though. Deep. About an inch long and 1/4 of an inch wide. And it happened quick - overnight!
As far as her fur, she's not stinky or dirty. So I won't worry...
Her cage was near his, but not right next to it, so I rearranged and she's right next to him now. Hopefully that will help...

It is possible he did hurt Darby but its also possible she got hurt on something in the cage. Did you take a good look at all their toys, inspect every nook and crany of their cage?

I did the cottonball test, but didn't find anything really sharp or pokey. The only possible culprits are the codder pin that holds the wodent wheel on. But it's the one that came with it, and it isn't bent or anything. And the hands on their monkeys... but those really aren't sharp, just a little pokey. They are just the regular plastic monkey-in-a-barrel kind. Everything else seems smooth as can be...

I am at a loss as to what could have happened too, lets just pray it was a freak accident and will never happen again.

Just keep a close eye on Darby and keep her near Diego, hopefully she will be healed soon and they can be reunited.

Thank you very much! I'd hate to find out that she's an SM-er... since she hasn't touched the wound or anything else. And Diego is such a sweetheart (he NEVER crabs or bites or anything) that I hate to think that he did it to her. But SOMEBODY had to be the chewer. Even if she did catch herself on something, the wound was very large and very deep. The scab is enormous and I hope it goes away on it's own and isn't glued to her skin. It's hard and icky. (Not wet or infected, just icky.) I kind of wonder why the vet didn't shave the area before the surgery. Maybe the wound wouldn't allow him to? I'm just hoping she'll heal up soon and be able to join her brother. Thank you for your help and kind words.

UPDATE...
Darby is in an e-collar now. She had begun to chew at her stitches. It was the worse night ever on Saturday trying to get an e-collar to stay on her and then watching her thrash around and gag. It took us five tries and a lot of wasted molefoam before we were able to get it to stay on her. What a horrible sight to watch your glider panic like that! She calmed down by the next day, but hates me more than ever...

Awww, yes, she is but will get over it and she is safe, that is the important thing! Prayers going out for this little one.

Thank you...

They do fight the e-collars horribly at first, but believe it or not - your bond with her will grow stronger as she goes through all of this
Sending hugs & prayers your way

I can attest to that statement, Suz!!!!

I've just now read this post, and wanted you to know that your story sounds much like Delta's and Blinken's Story.
I never did find out who the culprit was, but once these two were separated from the group, it didn't happen again with the three that were left together.

I hope you're story ends happily, like Blinken. Vigilance and vet care are EXTREMELY important. If you have even the slightest doubt or question about the wound, call your vet and have her checked. At the SLIGHTEST hint of a new opening or a bump in a new location under her skin, take her in.

One possibility that could have caused the "walking funny" is a fall that injured her shoulder under the skin before it was slashed. It doesn't sound like nutrition would be the problem unless the male was also keeping her from eating or she was being picky.

Also, if it was agressive behavior with the male causing the open wound, maybe his neutering didn't "take". If it was done too early they may not have gotten both testicles. Was it done pom off or pom on?

It sound like you are doing everything right so far. Everyone is giving great advice.

Lindayaks... his neuter was pom-on when he was a joey, but I don't know how old he was because he was with a different owner. Darby and Diego are both 3 years old now and have never had babies. Could it be that he's still "all-male"?

I certainly hope everything turns out well with Darby, and I appreciate everyone's kind words. I've been keeping Neosporin (the non-pain killer kind) on her wound and she gets an antibiotic (Baytril) every night.

I'm not sure that she's eating her HPW out of the bird-style waterer, though. I thought I'd positioned it so that she can get to it easily, but maybe I'll just put the HPW in a shallow dish tonight.

One cute thing though... I've been hand-feeding her half-mealies (the only thing she'll take hand fed) and she crabs as soon as my hand goes in the cage. But once she has that mealie in her mouth, she crabs while she's chewing it and it's the funniest sound! "Darby, don't crab with your mouth full..."

It could be, but only a vet could tell you. Does he have a bald spot on his head? That would be an indication that he's still "all" male.




There are dishes recommended for feeding gliders in e-collars....maybe you could do a search or post another question. There are also cage recommendations so they don't hurt themselves or get hung up on something.

Val has helped me with cage setup. I found some ceramic chinese sauce dishes (if that's what they are called...) to use. They are heavy enough not to tip when she leans on it, but flat enough to allow her to reach the food without sides interfering.

As far as Diego... no obvious gland on his forehead.

It pains me to have to tell everyone that I lost my Darby this morning. She got her collar off (actually opened one of the snaps somehow and wriggled out) and chewed deep into her stomach and patagium. I took her to the vet this morning and they tried surgery to close her wounds, but I'm sorry to say that she didn't make it through. I appreciate everyone's help in this matter, and I hope that Darby's life will have been a testament to those with gliders who SM. It's a very serious, and heart-wrenching matter...
My Darby rests peacefully now without any pain...

I am so sorry to hear about the loss of your Darby.

God Speed your little Angel.

OH AMBER!
This is heartbreaking!
I am so very, very sorry.... Please know that you did all you could. Don't hesitate to call me if you want to talk.
If you are not yet ready to send Guru on his way, you don't have to do so Friday. It can wait.

I am so sorry, Amber.
Moving this to Rainbow Memorials

Amber, I am in tears reading this. I am so terribly sorry. Know you did all you could and she knew how very much she was loved. Godspeed sweet little Darby.

I am so sorry to hear about the loss of Darby. She was fortunate to have experienced the love and joy that you gave to her.
Many blessings, hugs, and prayers being sent your way.

God speed sweet little one.

Oh no! I'm so very, very sorry

Oh sweetie, it was so sad to read of your loss. Sending healing prayers your way. Rest in Peace, Little Darby


Anita

Thank you everyone for your kind words... Darby will be greatly missed and forever in our hearts. Send thoughts and prayers for Diego who is now a lone glider until I'm able to try to group my other pair with him into a little colony of three. Even though Darby was in a separate "hospital cage", I know that he is aware that she is no longer with us, and I'm sure that he is mourning too...