Sugar Glider Community Calendar

Please click here to see larger view
Articles
More coming soon!!
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Member Spotlight
theresaw
theresaw
United States
Posts: 363
Joined: July 2005
Show All Member Profiles 
Last 10 Posts
Fun with Food Aggression
by Ladymagyver. 08/24/19 07:28 AM
PLEASE HELP. Glider showing dominance???
by Ladymagyver. 08/23/19 07:20 PM
2020 Sugar Glider Calendar and Cafe Press Store
by theresaw. 08/22/19 08:27 PM
Before I Buy Questions
by KarenE. 08/21/19 10:43 AM
Help Household Pesticide Sprayed...?!
by gliderbabiesall. 08/20/19 11:19 AM
My baby doesnt chirp?
by KarenE. 08/16/19 10:18 AM
Dietary suggestions for a newbie?
by Claralice. 08/15/19 08:52 PM
Glider hit fan - HELP!
by the_eidolon. 08/15/19 03:38 PM
Critter LoveĀ® Has JOEYS!!!
by Srlb. 08/14/19 01:04 PM
Google+

Facebook
Join Us On Facebook
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Update on cages and recall -PART FOUR [Re: DianeR] #1142700
07/09/11 07:13 PM
07/09/11 07:13 PM

C
Crystalg820
Unregistered
Crystalg820
Unregistered
C



Yeah she had 2 rounds of the calcium EDTA and two B12 shots along with subQ fluids. My other baby CoCo never exhibited any symptoms but we did 1 round of the calcium EDTA and 1 round of B12 ans subQ fluid. I think she is slowly getting better, very slowly but getting better. Thanks

Re: Update on cages and recall -PART FOUR [Re: ] #1143225
07/10/11 10:35 PM
07/10/11 10:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,061
Meridian, ID
fox0r Offline
Glider Guardian
fox0r  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,061
Meridian, ID
Originally Posted By: Crystalg820
Yup, mine is on my porch...has been since the beginning of June. I walked out on my porch after getting rain and I could smell the pvc coating as soon as I opened the door. And my porch IS NOT enclosed. My little one at this point is still very wobbly when walking and I really dont think her hind legs are going to get any better. She seems to be adapting but I hate that she struggles with walking, climbing and gliding frown sadly I haven't seen improvement in that respect in a few weeks. On the upside she is absolutely feeling better and is working very hard on figuring out how she can keep up with her sister....and she is begginig to play again. Couldn't imagine losing either one of them.


My Cici is about the same. She climbs pretty okay in the cage, though, but I haven't seen her try to climb anything during tent time, and she has a heck of a time walking, but still gets around. I don't think she will get any better, either, since like in your situation, it has been some time.


-Jen

Sugar Mountain - Sugar gliders in Idaho!
Re: Update on cages and recall -PART FOUR [Re: Gizmogirl] #1143241
07/10/11 11:14 PM
07/10/11 11:14 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 240
Annapolis, MD
Ikeda Offline
Glider Explorer
Ikeda  Offline
Glider Explorer

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 240
Annapolis, MD
This argument took a litigious tone quickly.

You cannot blame Martin's as you haven't yet proved ANYTHING other than their cages may be to blame. I for one STILL have my gliders in their Martin's cage from this time period and MY gliders are just peachy keen.

Some of that MAY be luck, some of that may be due to the cages but until someone can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Martin's is responsible then they have done above and beyond everything they needed to do.

I'm sorry for those affected but this is very dividing to the community as a whole. Start a class action suit and just KNOW that there are others out you under very SIMILAR circumstances that AREN'T affected and these will be very much used as evidence to prove a reasonable doubt exists.


:grey: Rocky and Winkle's Dad :wfb:

Rocky: (recognizing Boris's voice) That voice. Where have I heard that voice before?

Bullwinkle: In about 365 other episodes. But I don't know who it is either.
Re: Update on cages and recall -PART FOUR [Re: Gizmogirl] #1143258
07/11/11 12:01 AM
07/11/11 12:01 AM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
H
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict
hwh4ev  Offline
Glider Addict
H

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
has anybody contacted a lawyer to see what can be done?

we have alot of gliders that died and alot that will never
fully recover.

regards,
nancy in detroit


regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Update on cages and recall -PART FOUR [Re: Ikeda] #1143684
07/11/11 10:41 PM
07/11/11 10:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 31
North Little Rock, AR
Rocky_D Offline
In Pouch
Rocky_D  Offline
In Pouch

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 31
North Little Rock, AR
Originally Posted By: Ikeda
This argument took a litigious tone quickly.

You cannot blame Martin's as you haven't yet proved ANYTHING other than their cages may be to blame. I for one STILL have my gliders in their Martin's cage from this time period and MY gliders are just peachy keen.

Some of that MAY be luck, some of that may be due to the cages but until someone can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Martin's is responsible then they have done above and beyond everything they needed to do.

I'm sorry for those affected but this is very dividing to the community as a whole. Start a class action suit and just KNOW that there are others out you under very SIMILAR circumstances that AREN'T affected and these will be very much used as evidence to prove a reasonable doubt exists.


This would not be a criminal action. It would be a civil action and you do not need to prove 'beyond a shadow of a doubt' or show 'reasonable doubt exists' for civil actions, just by perponderance of the evidence. i.e. is it more like than not. O J was not convicted murder yet he was found CIVILLY liable for the deaths. We doubt a judge would allow a class action suit due to the small number of claimants. Martins own actions in replacing cages without being ordered to do so, shows they believe they're culpable.
If you believe they were replacing them out of the 'goodness of their hearts' you have much to learn about life. Lack of issues with your gliders does not mean all the cages are 'safe' as Martins claims.

Last edited by Rocky_D; 07/11/11 10:44 PM. Reason: To fix quote sentax

Bob n Glenda


:grey: Rocky D

:rbridge: Taz
Re: Update on cages and recall -PART FOUR [Re: Gizmogirl] #1144165
07/12/11 11:25 PM
07/12/11 11:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 247
WNY
A
AnimalLuv21 Offline
Glider Explorer
AnimalLuv21  Offline
Glider Explorer
A

Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 247
WNY
What are PVC cages?


Aidan,Cody,BB,Charlie,Glacier,Endora,Linus,Chastity,Kuzco & Petals (my sweet gliders)
Gizmo & Milo (Kitties)
Sabrina, Otis & Buster (Pug puppies)
http://sugarsweetglidersnchins.bravehost.com/
Re: Update on cages and recall -PART FOUR [Re: Gizmogirl] #1144386
07/13/11 08:31 AM
07/13/11 08:31 AM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 247
WNY
A
AnimalLuv21 Offline
Glider Explorer
AnimalLuv21  Offline
Glider Explorer
A

Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 247
WNY
I found it, this is the first i heard of this topic and i was a bit scared.


Aidan,Cody,BB,Charlie,Glacier,Endora,Linus,Chastity,Kuzco & Petals (my sweet gliders)
Gizmo & Milo (Kitties)
Sabrina, Otis & Buster (Pug puppies)
http://sugarsweetglidersnchins.bravehost.com/
Re: Update on cages and recall -PART FOUR [Re: AnimalLuv21] #1144387
07/13/11 08:35 AM
07/13/11 08:35 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,346
South Africa
Bozeman Offline
Glider Slave
Bozeman  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,346
South Africa
Originally Posted By: AnimalLuv21
What are PVC cages?


A PVC cage is a cage built from PVC pipes and connectors.


:grey: Casper (Bozeman) & Liezl (Gizmogirl):grey:
www.sugarglider.co.za
hug2

A glider's eyes have the power to speak a great language


PackinFuzz.com Sugar Glider Online Store

RIP: Sugar (2009) :grey:
You unfairly passed too young - your passing saved many gliders and will continue to do so
Re: Update on cages and recall -PART FOUR [Re: Gizmogirl] #1146872
07/17/11 05:58 PM
07/17/11 05:58 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 31
NY
C
cherry0606 Offline
In Pouch
cherry0606  Offline
In Pouch
C

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 31
NY
I came to this post really late as I purchased my cages before October of 2010. However here's my experience:

I purchased one smaller cage from Martin's cages back in 2009 when I first got my first two gliders. Then around February 2010 I purchased a larger one for my gliders and another in probably late August/Early September. (I have two females that just don't get along, so they are housed separately.) I lost one glider in early August who lived in the cage purchased in Feb, and another glider in September who lived in the second cage a few days after he moved into the new cage. We had necropsy done on the first glider and was told it was caused by some kind of toxins that cause neurological problems. We were not able to pinpoint the source. For the whole time we thought it was some bad food we fed, as we had a batch of mealworms that went moldy after a few hot summer days. We had five gliders at that time, and Apple was the only one got sick in August. All the gliders ate the same thing. None of us could be certain about the mealworm, but at the time, that was the only explanation that seemed reasonable. However giving the recent discussion in the glider community, the symptoms we saw was very similar to what our gliders had. Our first glider was seen trembling slightly on one Friday night. He deteriorated very fast over the weekend, and by the time we brought him to the vet on Monday, he was shaking severely and blind.

For the whole times we suspected that the mealworm wasn't really the cause of our gliders' illness, as the two gliders were sick almost 6 weeks apart, and that just didn't seem right. Also, our vet was very puzzled when we brought the first glider in as he had never seen anything like that. That's unusual if the glider is sick from food. After we found the mold in the mealworms (and before our first glider was sick) the entire batch of mealworms was thrown out and all equipments wiped with alcohol. When the second glider fell sick after six weeks, none of us could explain why.

I haven't follow the discussion on the glider community too closely as I thought my cages were purchased outside the problem time frame. We never suspected it could be the cages so I still had two sets of gliders living in those two cages until two days ago. These gliders seem fine with no outward symptoms of anything been wrong. I remember seeing a few of them trembling sometimes, but nothing further than that.

People respond to toxins differently. Some people die right after exposure, some have problems years down the road, and some people lived their entire life without any issues. This may be the case for gliders too. The first glider may accumulated toxins and the symptom showed a few months later, and the second one was hit much faster. Each of the gliders died had cagemate(s), and the cagemates are still around. In fact, since then I adopted more gliders and they also live in one of those two cages without problems. For them, either whatever the toxins killed the other two gliders didn't affect them, or I haven't seen the visible sign yet.

I just came across last Thursday night that I purchased the bulk wire roll in October of last year, and then realized I also purchased a cage shortly before that going through my credit card statements. My second glider fell ill a few days after he moved in to the second cage. This led me back to my vet to discuss about my gliders again. I was told by his office that they saw eight more cases after ours, and those were probably cage related.

I contacted Martin's Cages first regarding the roll I purchased in October, and was told they haven't receive any report regarding problem with rolls. If they depend on receiving reports from customers with issues, then it may very well be that the problem existed before October of 2010. We had problem with our gliders in August and September for cages purchased in Feb and August. We didn't report it because we didn't know it could be the cages.

After speaking with the vet on Friday, we moved all of our gliders out of the PVC cages, and we got rid of the unused rolls. At this point none of us knows the long term consequence for our other gliders that don't seem to be affected by the cages at the moment. They may have a great happy long life as any other gliders, or some problems may show up later in their life. I don't know. No one knows.

After reading this some people may feel that there's no concrete proof showing that my gliders die from the cages. The way I see it, is the cages is the only logical explanation so far. After losing two gliders, the stake is far bigger than I want to gamble. Having two gliders died mysteriously almost two months apart with same condition was not a pleasant experience to go through. This is why I took my gliders out of the PVC cages on Friday night and put them into temporary powder coated bird cages until the new big cages arrive this week. I took the same precaution when we suspected it was the worms by stop farming my own mealworms and only purchase them in small batches.

Re: Update on cages and recall -PART FOUR [Re: Gizmogirl] #1146898
07/17/11 07:05 PM
07/17/11 07:05 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 513
Vancouver, WA
GliderGuy540 Offline
Glider Lover
GliderGuy540  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 513
Vancouver, WA
I'm so sorry to hear you lost two gliders and I am gad you have removed the others from the suspect cages. I doubt we will ever know exactly what happened with these cages.


--==Kevin==--
Suggie-Daddy to Willow, Wicket, and Loki
:grey: :grey: :plat:

Re: Update on cages and recall -PART FOUR [Re: Gizmogirl] #1146933
07/17/11 08:31 PM
07/17/11 08:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,398
Wisconsin
Feather Offline
Administrator
Feather  Offline
Administrator

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 13,398
Wisconsin
That is the whole problem they rely on us to tell them there is a problem, but then they do not believe us.

I for one would like to know if any rat, ferret, rabbit, chinchilla or other animal owners that use the coated cages are having problems with their pets. I do not believe for a minute that it is only sugar gliders, they use that coated wire for a lot of different animal cages.


Kimberley
Feathers-Sweetie, Sklyar Blue, Mister Peanut, Big Mack & Ibo
Fur-Guinan, Mr. Spock, T'Mir, Micheal, Stevie, Cho & Maharet :bb: T'Pol, Elizabeth & Curzon :wfb: TY, TJ, Khayman & T'Pring :rtmo: O'Ryan :leu:
Forever in my heart, Gizmo, Tucker and the rest of my babies over the :rbridge:

Re: Update on cages and recall -PART FOUR [Re: Gizmogirl] #1149765
07/22/11 03:00 PM
07/22/11 03:00 PM

C
caliejean86
Unregistered
caliejean86
Unregistered
C



I have stepped away from this issue for a while now to cool down, collect my thoughts and help my babies recover. Taz died, harley seems fine and Chloe is no way near herself. She seems to either be partially blind and her sense of smell really bad. She is not the happy, active glider she used to be. I believe since she can't smell well she doesnt eat or forgets to eat. After months I am still syringe feeding her as she is losing weight. I do hold Martin's responsible since Feb when the first case came to light they knew about it. Only when I called them when Taz and Chloe got sick in May did they pull the gliders cage come off their website. AS for their powdercoated cages tehy are replacing them with . they are junk. They replaced brendas with one back in Feb and it was flaking, so here we are 5 months later and they are still doing this. ridiculous. This whole thing disgusts me, So many innocent gliders died and it took months and finally many people to call them to get them to do anything .. disgusting. I honestly don't know if Chloe will ever totally recover and I will not recover from this for a long time as well. The neglect from martins cages to notify anyone or question anyone that bought these cages makes me sick.

Re: Update on cages and recall -PART FOUR [Re: Gizmogirl] #1150892
07/24/11 07:36 PM
07/24/11 07:36 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,264
Northeast U.S.
angelic4296 Offline
Glider Addict
angelic4296  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,264
Northeast U.S.
I'm so sorry Tammy frown My prayers are with you...


Jess

2 spoiled gliders, Gizzy (6/05) and Ruthie (?/05) <3

Please consider rescuing first!

Please remember to complete your surveys at http://www.sugargroup.org/ - help better the lives of gliders everywhere smile
Re: Update on cages and recall -PART FOUR [Re: Gizmogirl] #1152553
07/27/11 01:15 PM
07/27/11 01:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
H
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict
hwh4ev  Offline
Glider Addict
H

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
tammy, hug2
my heart goes out to you. my 3 were effected by this poisonus cage also, i did not lose any gliders but my
mosaic-vanilla is not the same glider either. she hates me and screams/crabs when i try to take her out of her pouch into a bonding pouch, play time she wants nothing to do with me, all this and more since i had to make big changes in her life. i have been trying to bond with her after all this but she is not the happy, bonded glider she once was.
my husband thought she couldnt see well before and after all the treatments but the vet didnt see anything more wrong with her.
it is a nightmare and has been for months.

you have my deepest sympathy. i am sorry for your loss.

take care,
nancy in detroit
p.s. vanilla had to be taken out of her trio and is alone
waiting for a partner i am getting in sept. i hope this helps.
poor baby, our gliders did suffer for this crime by the cage companys.

Last edited by hwh4ev; 07/27/11 01:20 PM.

regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Update on cages and recall -PART FOUR [Re: Gizmogirl] #1152570
07/27/11 01:55 PM
07/27/11 01:55 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
I just simply am heart broken for each of you that have a glider effected by this.

Martin's is responsible for the cages and wire they sold. They can go after the company that manufactured the wire.

Pocket Pets is responsible for the cages they sold as well. They can go after the manufacture of the cages they sold. That manufacture can go after the company that made the wire.

It amazes me that both Martin's and Pocket Pets (more Martin's than Pocket Pets surprisingly because Pocket Pets stepped up fairly quickly and have tried to make things right) are willing to pass the blame to the manufacture. They sold the defective product and are responsible for the consequenses (vet bills, lost glider lives etc).



620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Update on cages and recall -PART FOUR [Re: Gizmogirl] #1152577
07/27/11 02:17 PM
07/27/11 02:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
H
hwh4ev Offline
Glider Addict
hwh4ev  Offline
Glider Addict
H

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,839
roseville, mi
i agree with you and would love to hear of somebody that has lost gliders, etc. has contacted a lawyer to see what
can be done abt. it.

regards,
nancy in detroit


regards,
nancy in roseville (formerly in detroit)
Re: Update on cages and recall -PART FOUR [Re: Gizmogirl] #1153111
07/28/11 08:49 AM
07/28/11 08:49 AM

M
Marbles
Unregistered
Marbles
Unregistered
M



I am new here, but have been following this topic for awhile. My babies were affected by an illness as well, but I don't see how the cage companies can be blamed here. Where is the proof that it was the cages that made them ill and not something else?

Re: Update on cages and recall -PART FOUR [Re: Gizmogirl] #1153115
07/28/11 08:55 AM
07/28/11 08:55 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,747
80 acres of paradise in KS
The only proof, two things, is all the gliders we know of effected are scattered across the country and the only thing they have in common is the cage. Combined with once the gliders are removed from those cages, they start showing signs of improvement almost immediately.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Update on cages and recall -PART FOUR [Re: fox0r] #1153583
07/29/11 12:17 AM
07/29/11 12:17 AM

C
Crystalg820
Unregistered
Crystalg820
Unregistered
C



I know, Delilah is still the same no change as far as her hind legs go. She does go a** over tea kettle a lot, but it doesn't stop her she hops back up and tries again. She is climbing the curtains in the living room, but honestly she is mostly using her upper body, It seems like she isn't able to grip(so to speak)with her hind legs, except for the bars in her cage. But she is still with me and she is "handicapable" and awfully adorable

Re: Update on cages and recall -PART FOUR [Re: Gizmogirl] #1153610
07/29/11 01:00 AM
07/29/11 01:00 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 13,454
South Africa
G
Gizmogirl Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
Gizmogirl  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
G

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 13,454
South Africa
hug2


Casper & Liezl
:grey:Gizzy, Boesman, Muchu, Kiamon, Sky & Boog:grey:
A glider's eyes have the power to speak a great language

RIP Sugar 2009 & Kaida 2013
Re: Update on cages and recall -PART FOUR [Re: ] #1154034
07/29/11 07:29 PM
07/29/11 07:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 31
North Little Rock, AR
Rocky_D Offline
In Pouch
Rocky_D  Offline
In Pouch

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 31
North Little Rock, AR
Originally Posted By: Marbles
I am new here, but have been following this topic for awhile. My babies were affected by an illness as well, but I don't see how the cage companies can be blamed here. Where is the proof that it was the cages that made them ill and not something else?


We believe the cage company admitted responsability when they replaced the cages without being forced or asked to. You don't have to have proof, just convince a jury that it is more likely the cages than not. Civil law is not the same as criminal law.


Bob n Glenda


:grey: Rocky D

:rbridge: Taz
Re: Update on cages and recall -PART FOUR [Re: Rocky_D] #1161448
08/15/11 04:31 PM
08/15/11 04:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 31
NY
C
cherry0606 Offline
In Pouch
cherry0606  Offline
In Pouch
C

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 31
NY
It's been about 4 weeks since we moved our existing gliders from the PVC cages to powder coated cages. It is interesting to note that, once I removed them from the PVC cages, they started to drink much less water. Again, not sure how we can prove it, but even though the PVC cages didn't affect my current gliders the same way as they did on the other two gliders we lost, the cages are still affecting them in other ways.

I am just hoping that the water they drank helped to flush out whatever was in their system, and this will be the end of episode for us.

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Feather, KarenE, Ladymagyver 

Sugar Glider Help Page



Please click above to see how you can help!!

Moon
CURRENT MOON
Who's Online Now
3 registered members (Donnie, KarenE, Xeno), 183 guests, and 280 spiders.
Key: , , Owner, Admin
Newest Members
Aprilsuggies, Rjfrns2010, gliderbabiesall, Mackenzie314, Wenona
6949 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums132
Topics9,852
Posts156,106
posts in the last 24hrs0
Members6,950
Most Online1,230
Jul 28th, 2019
Last 10 New Topics
Fun with Food Aggression
by Xeno. 08/24/19 01:20 AM
Help Household Pesticide Sprayed...?!
by gliderbabiesall. 08/19/19 11:24 PM
PLEASE HELP. Glider showing dominance???
by Mackenzie314. 08/18/19 10:51 PM
My baby doesnt chirp?
by PetreesParent. 08/15/19 11:28 PM
Glider hit fan - HELP!
by Anonymous. 08/13/19 11:46 AM
New ClassifiedCENTRAL Policy
by KarenE. 08/11/19 10:31 PM
Posting Guidelines
by KarenE. 08/11/19 04:17 PM
Help with my new girl.
by Misti. 08/11/19 03:38 AM
Joey Care
by wvglidermomma. 08/08/19 12:06 PM
Popular Topics(Views)
784,089 TEXAS
627,209 OHIO
433,463 OKLAHOMA
383,712 UTAH
281,389 NORTH CAROLINA
Supported Browser
This site was tested and is best viewed in Google Chrome & Mozilla FireFox



Firefox 3

Download your copy today!!!
Home Forums Links Sitemap Vets Breeders Sounds Contact Us Names Rules & Policies

GliderCENTRAL
©1998-2019
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software
(Release build 20180918)
Page Time: 0.052s Queries: 14 (0.013s) Memory: 1.4490 MB (Peak: 1.7452 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2019-08-24 16:39:30 UTC