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Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #645288
09/27/08 02:36 PM
09/27/08 02:36 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis
USMom  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
Danielle, I agree with everything that you say. Except in my case I KNOW it was the cage wire. I had 13 cages of gliders at the time, and it was only the gliders in that cage that were ill. We took them out, they got better. Put them back, they got sick again. Took them out, they got better. Scrubbed the cage really, really good, took it to the car wash, poured bleach, rinsed it, poured vinegar rinsed it, you name it, I did it. I even muscled it into my sons bathroom and got hot water on it (made an unholy mess). Put another group of gliders in there. They got sick. Took them out, they got better. None of my other gliders got sick in this time frame.

Every group of gliders that went into this cage became very ill. Started with Dexter and Gizmo. Dexter died from what looked like a stomach issue about 2 weeks after moving in, I didn't get a necropsy because my son was in the hospital at the time, and I just didn't. Next, I tried to do intro's with Cooper and Gizmo a couple of months later (Giz lived there the whole time, never got sick). Didn't work, so I put Giz in Coops cage and left Cooper in Gizmo's cage. 2 days later we started that God Awful saga that was Coopers illness. He was removed from the cage to go to the hospital cage. So, at this point, I'm not associating the illness with the cage yet. I never moved Gizzy back into the cage, because it was HUGE and she was in a good sized cage. So, I moved my quad into the cage. Sugar, Spandex, Doodle Bug and Cuddle Bug. Spandex died a couple of weeks later from I don't know what. I didn't get a necropsy, probably because of a timeframe issue, but his girls all went to the vet for a check, as they had a stomach issue, runny poo, vomiting, etc...Cooper was still on meds twice a day, and now I have 3 more to medicate. I got them all well, but Mom was pulled in the process, and now the cage was too big for them, so they went to different cages. This cage went to the garage. I honestly thought that I hadn't cleaned it well enough after Cooper was in there, and they got his germs. Then, I brought in a large colony. That cage was the perfect size. Within a couple of weeks, the colony was sick. These guys went back and forth, in and out of the cage, with one of the girls losing all of her hair. They went back and forth to the vet (who kept telling me they weren't sick). In the back and forth in and out of the cage they'd get sick, get better. That's when it dawned on me that it was the cage. So...

I still have the roll of wire and the cage. I will say, I did make a much smaller cage out of the same wire. Used it for 9 months on one of my girls, and she never got sick in it. This wire, though, I washed (scrubbed with a scrubby) in my tub, with very hot water, rinsed with very hot water, and that nasty smell went away, too.


Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom] #645495
09/27/08 08:14 PM
09/27/08 08:14 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
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Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
I spent all day after I read this re-cleaning my cages and today as well. wheels, bottles, and pouches too. (Take NO chances) Hubby said after watching me clean my cages there is NO WAY the cages are making my gliders sick..something about me being ocd about how they have to be done. I am not OCD BUT my gliders HAVE to get better and that is that. My cages have no residue smell on them so I think mine are safe.


cyndiekb

I heart & miss you HALEY

My runaways 4/04 Lilo, 5/04 Dash & Angel

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Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom] #645712
09/28/08 06:53 AM
09/28/08 06:53 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Gossamer Offline
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Gossamer  Offline
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Posts: 1,667
Long Island, NY
Unfortunately with out necropsies and analizing the cage, you can't be 100% certain it was the cage. the cage is suspected, but not confirmed. The fact that you had at least one glider live in the cage with no problem throws doubt. That's why what this poster is doing in having the cage analized is so very very important. I hope they come back and tell us the outcome.


Jeannine

3 Cats (Spike, Kismet, Honeycat)
1 understanding Husband
1 WFB Neutered Glider boy - Grissom! (oop 8/7/06) :wfb:
1 BB Glider girl- Willows! (oop 1/7/07) :bb:
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Gossamer] #645864
09/28/08 01:43 PM
09/28/08 01:43 PM

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Monster OP
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I wonder if there is a local university that would test samples of the wire for toxins. They would have all the equipment on site since the are a teaching facility And if they have something like a forensics club, they might do it for free, just for fun, or the experience.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #645976
09/28/08 04:26 PM
09/28/08 04:26 PM

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PixTrix OP
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Yes, or a metallurgy lab or a lab that works with plastics...


Jen

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #646095
09/28/08 07:29 PM
09/28/08 07:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
To be honest I do not think it is the cage. I am not trying to make anyone feel bad about anything at all. Thee are just so many variables here, but the one variable is that there are thousands of people who have cages made from Riverdale wire and never had a problem with it. So if it was the cage it had to be a bad batch or something to that affect. I just think there was a thousand other things that could have caused this and were more likely to cause this than the cage. Everyone that knows me well knows that I would not just say this because we sell cages. We just started the business back up and we could shut it back down and not lose anything in doing so. My first concern is always what is best for the gliders and if there is an unknown reason out there I like finding out what caused it as it could help millions of other gliders including my own babies.
I am here to help in any way I can and have all the same questions running through my head as everyone else does. It would just be nice to have some answers. Is the person that started the thread still available by phone? If she is would she be offended if we were to call and ask questions about other things going on in the gliders lives and environment? I know she is going through a very hard time and just do not want to make it any worse than it is. I think she really believes it was the cage that made them sick, but as I said I have serious doubts that is the case considering what history with this wire dictates. The only way I see it being the wire is that there was something that went wrong with that batch, something happened in the warehouse in which is was shipped through, or something in the shipping truck. We tend to forget that the stuff is shipped through how many different places and in how many different trucks before it hits us, especially if you live far away from Klubertanz. I really want to help her figure this out so everyone can feel safe with their cages or future cages again and so everyone knows what did do it and how to prevent it in our own home.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #646102
09/28/08 07:40 PM
09/28/08 07:40 PM

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PixTrix OP
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I agree wholeheartedly with Danielle. I have had cages made of PVC-coated wire from Klubertanz since I got into gliders back in 2001 and I have never had any problems with the cages. Like Danielle, I do not think it is the cage that caused Kitty's gliders to become sick and/or die from it. I think it is most likely the environmental issues, since Kitty said she built an aviary. An aviary is an outdoor cage, right? There are so many possibilities from the environment that could have caused dire illnesses in her gliders, for example, exhaust, pesticides, insecticides, air pollution, if she lives in the airline path, then that could also contribute to the problem. This is why an outdoor living quarters is so very much discouraged. Better be safe than sorry!

As for the native gliders living outdoors, they are fine because they grew up that way. When captive gliders are bred and raised indoors and then released into an aviary outdoors, then the pvc-coated cage certainly isn't to blame. It's the immune system within the glider(s), among other things.

I just don't think it is the cage that is causing the illness/death. Period.


Jen

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #646334
09/29/08 12:21 AM
09/29/08 12:21 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
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Rock Falls, IL, USA
I just got the link from megi to the guy that sold the blue wire and his name of his store is Riverdale Mills. I want everyone to know that this is not the same as Riverdale wire that you get from klubertanz or other legitimate suppliers. We have talked straight to Riverdale and they do not sell to private buyers. They only sell to legitimate wire supply stores. So there is no way that Riverdale Mills and Riverdale is the same company. I wanted to post this on here because if this is wire coming out of china or is not being made safely (they are mostly selling for fish traps so are not concerned with living animals) then everyone needs to know not to purchase from them at all. Even if the wire is black if it is coming from them does not mean it is made any different than the blue wire was. I have no doubt that the blue wire made sugar gliders sick. They were sick in a matter of days and showing definite signs very early on. The people that were dealing with the blue wire and the sick gliders had had cages made of the black PVC wire (not sure from who, but I would imagine from Klubertanz. Don't want to make assumptions though) so they know what PVC smells like and it does not smell good and it can be a strong odor, especially in confined spaces where it is closed up. There are people that still smell it months later. I think everyone has a different range of smell so that accounts for that as well. Anyway megi mentioned that this blue wire smelt a lot different then the wire she had received before this stuff. I don't want to in anyway imply that the megi or shawna did not really deal with bad wire that made their gliders sick as I know they did.
When I am referring to the wire I don't think is making the gliders sick is the legitimate klubertanz wire. I am not even saying I know for a fact that this wire did not make them sick. I am just saying I am am not real convinced as of yet. I want to find out what caused this to make sure it isn't the wire. I am really concerned about this and i am so sorry if I am coming across as rude about the wire thing I am not meaning to. I really really want to make sure for 100% sure that it is not the wire. If it is the wire I know I will be closing our business ASAP. I just think that with all the cages out there that have been made of this wire and not had a problem it makes me not believe that it is the wire, but that doesn't mean I am right.
I would love for everyone that can help in any way to get involved in this even if you pm me or e-mail me direct. I really don't want to give up and go on and just assume it is not the wire and have it be the wire. However, I can not do this one my own unless I have information on the exact situation and I just do not want to offend Kitty by calling and asking questions about diet, etc.. as i know she has went through a great loss. Please let's all get together and try to help her and every other parent and glider out there.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #646412
09/29/08 05:59 AM
09/29/08 05:59 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
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Critter Creations  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Shawna,

I am sorry I some how missed your post up there. I am so sorry for what you and your babies went through. It is always horrible when you don't know what is making them sick in order to fix it. You and megi seemed to figure it out pretty quick and that is great. I really do believe that the wire that person is selling on ebay is not good. I am going to see if there is a way to get a sample or purchase a small quantity somehow to see if there is anyway I can see it and compare it to Riverdale's wire and also that blue wire. This way I have two wires purchased from the person on ebay. I will purchase black from him just to make sure. Then if the blue one and the black one from the same vendor have the same problems then we know it is that vendor for sure and to stay away from him period and get the word out there not to purchase from him. I think he named himself Riverdale Mills so that people would think he was Riverdale or was associated with them and I can pretty much guarantee you they aren't based on the conversations I had with Riversale wire company themselves and to Klubertanz. Now if these two are the same and they are totally different from the Klubertanz Riverdale wire then we know that no one should ever purchase from the ebay guy again.
However, then we are back to square one on Kitty's case. She would be the first person (that we all know of) that got a roll of wire from Klubertanz (Riverdale) that made her gldiers ill. So it would be one of three things if it was the wire. 1. It was a bad batch of wire 2. they are making their wire different and whatever they changed caused this 3. something happened during the shipping process that made this batch of wire toxic. If it isn't the wire then there are thousands of variables. Such as carpet cleaners, hard wood floor cleaners, etc.. Dusting solutions, air sanitizers, or just about any cleaner on the market being used in the same room with the gliders on a regular basis. Something in the environment that maybe even Kitty didn't know about. Sugar gliders are so small that it takes so much less of something to cause them to get ill than it does for humans. So it could be a carbon monoxide issue in the house or anything similar to that where it wasn't so bad it was harming the humans, but bad enough it was makeing the gliders ill. diet is another factor. Depending on what she fed there could be a few variables there as well. I just wish we knew for sure what the answer was.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #646551
09/29/08 09:56 AM
09/29/08 09:56 AM

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PixTrix OP
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Originally Posted By: K & D Exotics
I just wish we knew for sure what the answer was.


Me too! It drives me crazy not knowing what the answer is.


Jen

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Anonymous] #646844
09/29/08 02:29 PM
09/29/08 02:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 202
arizona
K
kittybaran Offline
Glider Explorer
kittybaran  Offline
Glider Explorer
K

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 202
arizona
Oh my God I've finally got log in! I am not accusing Klubertanz or Rivendale of anything. I am not slamming anyone. I am only making an inquiry concerning anyone who may have had a similar occurance in order to rule out a toxin in the wire itself. I know there are many possible couses of toxic exposure. I've spent 11 months intensly researching neuro-molecular biology and environmental toxins so I could speak to neurologists, molecular biologists and the Docs at the FDA inorder to get a drug that was still in the research phase available to ALS pts. Therefore I know there are many possibe culprits including toxins produce by micro-organisms. I've spent 6 grand on this problem. My vet are not sure what is going on including if the problem are the cages themselves. Again I am not slamming the companies I am only making an inquiry to rule out. And you know what? I sure would not buy blue wire, based on what people have said. I've put my gliders in old cages that I thankfully did not get rid of, but my gliders have had the luxary off being in a 6 by 6 by 5ft cages and 6 by 5 by 3. I refer to them as avieries because most cages are not this large. They are not outside. I live in AZ were we, yes freeze as well as fry. I do not use aerosols, air fresheners, pesticides, grass and plant killers, and the gliders and I eat organic. Chicken and veggies are frozen inorder to kill possible bacteria. Fruit is washed, peeled and washed again. I can not take my cages to the car wash because of the size. They were cleaned before the gliders were placed in them and cleaned many times since then. I've e-mail Rivendale and they responded with "we use many different chemicals". well.....dah! I re-e-maild them asking for specifics, but I have not heard back from them. Many differnt chemicals are used in the manufacturing of PVC and in the melding of PVC onto wire. Many of these chemical are toxic, xylene, bromide, I can not remember them all. I read a study concerning PVC and it found that a certain chemical, and again I don't recall which because I was doing some pretty frantic reading, caused cancer in rats, It was deemed safe for use because it did not appear to produce it in people. This could be due to body metabloism and/or size. Dell and Microsoft are phasing out the use of PVC, because of possible toxins including in the disposal process. The use of recyled PVC is a concern due to impurities and changes in the PVC depending on what it was exposed to as it sat around, a question I asked of Rivendale. They told me they do not use recycled material. I called Klubertanz first. The guy was reluctant to tell me where they get the wire until I told him that I was looking at a possible toxic exposure. He told me Rivendale, but he would not give me the Phone number, and I had to look it up on line. I thought that was kind of rude. I called the Univ of Az college of vet medicine, I got the appropriate dept for what I wanted. I don't remember what it was. The guy was full of himself and the only thing he was good for was getting on my nerves. I've tested the room for lead in the paint and in the underlying paint. The gliders do not get on the floor, I get into their cages, which is why I made them 6ft tall, so I would not have to duck. I do not go into the cages unless I've freshly showered and before lotioning up. I put fresh socks on before I go in so as not to bring something from another part of the house into the cages. I wash my hands before handling them. I've try to illinate toxic exposure as much as possible. The thing is that all this began occuring shortly after the new luxury cages. I really appreciate all the responses and input and prayer. I wish I had gotten into this site sooner. My vet did a lead swab of his dog's ceramic water dish and found lead. So I swabed all of the glider stuff to make sure while I waited for the blood work. Zinc swabs are also abailable on line. I think it is a nice thing to have around to test new glider toys and dishes. I was reading in the Sun Coast Sg section and read the mention of pine nuts for gliders, beside being high in phos, they may as well as other nuts carry bacteria that produces toxins, beware of nuts! I was going to ask my vet if freezing nuts would kill the bacteria, I think it would but not sure. Thanks everyone Kitty

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: kittybaran] #647045
09/29/08 06:39 PM
09/29/08 06:39 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
USMom Offline
Serious Glideritis
USMom  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,356
Austin, TX
Danielle, I have the wire still. I am willing to have it tested, and willing to pay for it. I just have no idea where to go. There may very well have been a toxin in my glider room. The things the vet found were a virus (Staph) and in another group of gliders, a bacterial infection, then nothing in the other two groups, and unknown in the first death.


Shawna
Who are you networked with? Networking could save your gliders life. Create one now.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom] #647063
09/29/08 07:04 PM
09/29/08 07:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
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Glider Addict
Critter Creations  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
I am having the same problem as you Shawna I have no idea where to get it tested. I am asking around. Well having Ken ask around. Since he is a firefighter he does inspections on all the coompanies,etc.. in this area and he is trying to think of who may be able to test for this sort of thing. Maybe Kitty has some suggestions as to where to look for people and what type of professional person we should be talking to?

Kitty I am so sorry that you thought I was accusing you of bringing down Klubertanz or Riverdale wire (they are two separate companies. Some people don't realize that I don't think). What I was trying to do was prevent panic. When things like this happen and it is stated that it is probably the wire then everyone begins to get upset and go with it. I was just trying to make sure everyone knew there was no way we could know whether it was the wire at this point or not and that Klubertanz and Riverdale have always had good names and we shouldn't bring them down in this. I know that is not what you were trying to do.
I am so happy you are on here now so we can ask questions and get answers. You have already answered a lot of questions I had in my head. One question I am having right now is everyone is referring to the wire company as RiveNdale insetead of RiveRdale. I am trying to figure out if Klubertanz added another company that was just spelled close enough to Riverdale that we didn't notice it? Klubertanz does sell wire from different manufacturers. It is not just Riverdale wire that he sells. So we do need to get to the bottom and figure out for sure which wire it was that was purchased by the people that their gliders got this oily fur and started losing their fur and getting sick from. Is it one company in particular or is it all of them?
The reason I have a hard time wrapping my brain around the fact that it is the wire making them ill is because a majority of the gliders out there are in cages made of this type of wire. Maybe the ones getting ill have immune issues? If that is the case they would show signs much faster than the other gliders. IF that was the case then it could mean that the other gliders may not show signs for years. I am just as confused as everyone and I thank the people that are pm'ing me so that I can get some facts written down based on each situation. Like I said it is going to take us all working together. We need to open up if we think this has happened to our gliders in the past or present, we need to talk to the people that are trying their best to get it figured out. I know that me, megi, Shawna, Kitty, and PixTrix are trying to figure it out together.
Now Shawna with yours it is hard to know if it was a bacterial/staph infection that made your gliders sick or if it was a toxin that lead to the bacterial/staph infections that did it. I know that staph is very hard for humans to recover from let alone a glider. It sounds like Kitty has the abilities to have wire tested. Kitty are you open to having the other wires that have been involved sent to you so they can all be tested against each other to see if there is a difference in them? If you are is this costly? maybe this is something the glider initiative would be willing to help with since it does affect a ton of gliders lives out there. These are all things that we need to look into. If I had the money and resources I would take this on all on my own, but most of you know that is not possible and why.
Richard was not trying to be mean by not giving out Riverdale's phone number as I don't believe he is aloud to per an agreement with the company. We just happened across it at one point and were able to call. First things first though is that we need to know that we are all dealing with the same companies wire or not? If not we need to know which companies wire has possibly been involved with an illness or death. That is the information I am trying to collect right now.
Since we know that the blue wire was in fact bad please do not purchase from the Riverdale Mills on ebay. This is where the wire came from. They are not the same company as Riverdale wire. Please just stay away for your babies safety.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #647078
09/29/08 07:23 PM
09/29/08 07:23 PM

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PixTrix OP
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Can we make this a sticky, to warn glider owners to stay away from the pvc-coated wire from Riverdale Mills, in the Housing and Accessories subforum?


Jen

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #647133
09/29/08 08:33 PM
09/29/08 08:33 PM

M
Monster OP
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M



Jen - it probably would do no good as a sticky until we have solid facts on SOMEthing, which we don't right now - we just know that some wire is bad, and that it may come from Riverdale, Rivendale, Riverdale Mills, or even Klubertanz.

I think everyone is heading in the right direction. Samples of the wire should be tested. Whoever collects the samples needs to be very careful to keep them separate so as not to cross contaminate by handling one sample, then handle another without washing hands and sealing all other samples away, etc. The information is only good to us if it is valid.

Kitty, thank you so much for coming back & registering! It sounds like you have been really thorough with your efforts, so hopefully we'll be able to narrow this down.

I don't know how much I can do guys, seeing as I've never even owned a PVC cage. But you guys have my brain here to work through ideas with you, and if I can help...I'm here thumb

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #647183
09/29/08 09:22 PM
09/29/08 09:22 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
Critter Creations Offline
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Critter Creations  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,398
Rock Falls, IL, USA
I just want to add that Klubertanz does not make wire at all. They get their wire from suppliers such as Riverdale and Shepards. Those were the only two that I knew for a fact that they carried, but am going to look deeper into that.

I thank you for the information on how to keep it all separate with not cross contaminating. I was in nursing school so we learned all about that, but sometimes we do not cross that information over to other places we need to utilize it.

Does anyone know if that blue wire is still for sale anywhere? I see they have yellow wire, but no blue. I want to get fresh samples that haven't been used or washed by anyone. I think that would be the best way to go.

I am thinking that i will go around to these companies and ask for samples and give certain explanations as to why I would like a sample. ;)If I have to purchase samples i will. Then as they come in I will make sure to label, use gloves (same type of gloves every time), and then we need to figure out who can test these. PixTrix may have an idea for this, but we are not sure yet. If anyone has or knows or anyone who has the capabilities of doing this and would like to do it for the sheer fact of learning and helping that would be great.

I am still thinking that the Riverdale wire was either a bad batch, it was something else entirely, or there are changes being made at the company. We just built cages out of this same exact wire and had no problems what so ever. My friend has a cage that we built with the same roll and she has had no problem what so ever. So two different environments and 12 gliders all together and no problems. These were built in beginning of July. I still think that the wire, especially from ebay, needs to be tested. like someone said before what are we testing for as we know the chemicals they use are toxic. Why are they all of a sudden just now showing problems (if that is what the problem is)? I am not confused on how to get the samples we need. I am however confused on how to go the rest of the way and be able to actually prove anything????


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #647196
09/29/08 09:32 PM
09/29/08 09:32 PM

M
Monster OP
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M



Originally Posted By: K & D Exotics
I just want to add that Klubertanz does not make wire at all. They get their wire from suppliers such as Riverdale and Shepards.


See, that's what I mean, I don't know anything about the topic - but I'll help where i can...

Originally Posted By: K & D Exotics
Why are they all of a sudden just now showing problems (if that is what the problem is)?


Is this all of a sudden? Shauna, what was the timeframe with your issues? Megi, how about with yours? Kitty, when did you order the wire, build the cages, and first start noticing issues with your babies?

Forgive me if this information has been provided, I am just trying to consolidate. I am just trying to see if this has been over the last year, or maybe two years, and precisely when (within a month or so). This would help the manufacturer narrow down the lot/batch.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #647203
09/29/08 09:36 PM
09/29/08 09:36 PM
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Austin, TX
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Oh, I'm pretty sure I still have the actual receipt. I know I got my wire before the Detroit SGGA, because that is when I delivered it to Megi. I didn't build any cages until Sept/Oct. The first glider died October 24th, 2007.


Shawna
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Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #647210
09/29/08 09:44 PM
09/29/08 09:44 PM
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Rock Falls, IL, USA
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i am not trying to say you are lying at all I just found the following confusing to me so I wanted to know why you said Richard would not tell you who his supplier was. I just re-read your post and caught this as odd. If you download his catalog or get his catalog it says at the top of each suppliers page what their name is. So that when you order the wire you know whether you are ordering Shepards or Riverdale. So it doesn't make sense to me why first of all you would have to ask him and second if it was just because you didn't pay close attention when ordering and had to ask, why he would keep this information from you.
I understand him not giving the phone number out as I had explained above. This one just struck me as I re-read the post and was curious about it.


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #647524
09/30/08 11:06 AM
09/30/08 11:06 AM
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I want to say, everyone, before you have a panic attack, stop and think. There are how many thousand cages out there made from vinyl coated wire? And how many gliders are we talking about that are ill? 2 owners have the exact same wire, as it came from the same roll. We do NOT know for sure that the gliders problems started with the wire. Anecdotally, it sounds like this is true, but we have to know for sure.

Danielle, I did ask my vet if Coopers staph could be why the next group was ill, and he was suprised I asked. But explained to me that what Cooper had was not contagious.


Shawna
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Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: USMom] #647873
09/30/08 09:11 PM
09/30/08 09:11 PM
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That is weird as Staph is highly contagious. Well depending on the type of staph. That is what people catch in hospitals all the time because of how strong it is and how contagious it is. Surgical sites are usually the area it invades first.
So maybe the type of staph cooper had was not contagious.
In the nursing world staph is a huge thing and all precautions are to be taken for it not to spread. That was why I was thinking that.
Shawna I do agree with you about the fact that there is no proof that PVC wire is causing any harm to gliders at all. I am certain enough that I am going to continue to sell the cages at this point and I am going to continue to build my babies their new cage. That is why it was so hard for me to wrap my mind around the fact that the wire was causing the illnesses that Kitty was describing.
I do have to say that I am going to talk to Richard further about what he meant by BAD stuff coming in from China. Like I said I do not know if he meant manufacturing issues or health issues and I want to find that out.
Other than that like we both have said how many thousands of gliders have been in this type of wire cage and never had a problem. Then I thought maybe due to economic reasons they may have changed something, but we have used it recently and not had a problem and we are not the only ones that I have talked to that have had the same outcome.
Do i think this needs to be kept an eye on? Yes I do. We need to keep our minds open to just about anything when it comes to our gliders, but we must not overreact either. The reason i was overreacting is because I am selling these cages and I do not want to cause harm to a glider at all. No matter who's glider it is. I have calmed down today after talking with a few people (including hubby) and I am much more relaxed about the issue.
I think that evreyone has the right to purchase whatever cage they feel comfortable with for their gliders, but I think that people get ripped off all the time. These $80 cages on e-bay are not usually very good. I am not saying there aren't good powder coated cages out there. Most of the really good ones (the ones that last a long while) are more expensive than the PVC cages. There are some that are pretty good for what you pay for them. The one I have in my bedroom is pretty good for what I paid for it, but I have had both PVC and now powder coated and I just have to say I hate the noise with the powder coated. I know the really good ones are just as sturdy as the PVC ones, but I can't afford those. I chose the one off bird.com and it is a nice cage, but it is noisy compared to a PVC cage and I told Ken shortly after we purchased it he was going to have to design me a new one for the house and he is real close to finishing the plans to my satisfaction LOL Everyone has their own preference though and have to go with what they can get that is safe for what they can afford and decide what is best for them and their babies. smile


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #648119
10/01/08 07:44 AM
10/01/08 07:44 AM
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Shawna- your blue cage, it was in the glider room right? So whatever is with the cage wire and made the gliders sick, they have to have direct contact & not airborne. If it was just from aroma, you would have had other gliders sick. So an uncleaned piece should still have residue of whatever is on it.


Ñancy
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Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: jacknsally] #648410
10/01/08 04:12 PM
10/01/08 04:12 PM
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Utah
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silverwolf Offline
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Hi all I started doing some research into this as I was going to build another cage and I am worried also. I talked to someone today that had alot of useful information. He stated that this problem with the wire is real. It started about 10 years ago with wire that was being shipped in from china. What it is is a coating they put on the wire to preserve it during shipping. It shows as either a dull coating or a shiny slimy coating. Texas A & M did some testing on this wire and found that animals were being poisoned by zinc oxide. In the wire industry this stuff is called Jackson wire. It could have been boughten my many different companies but it is extremely toxic. This coating has been found on both galvantized wire as well as pvc coated wire. So if a company used the tainted galvenized wire and then pvc coated it the chemical would still leach through the pvc and poison our animals. The government has now put a ban on all wire from china so they cannot import it anymore but it is still out there and people will still be trying to get rid of this stuff that may be in their warehouses. So the person I talked to suggested that at this point do not order wire from e-bay as these people may have the tainted wire. Also we need to be cautious and if the wire smells funny or looks odd don't use it we don't want to risk our gliders. When you talk to klubertanz make sure that they do not have any of this wire or send you any. There is a company that has been usda certified as being safe called C.E. Shepard they got the certification so they would be considered safe to use for Aviaries and cages. I am not necessarily trying to say we should go with them but they did tell me they are certified with both usda and the zoological certification as being safe. The only problem I see is their distributer is custon cage works and I know that some people have issues with them. I guess you can order direct but then you have to order bulk.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: silverwolf] #648540
10/01/08 07:45 PM
10/01/08 07:45 PM
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Rock Falls, IL, USA
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I was so impressed when silverwolf sent me a pm with this information. We immediately called Richard and he said that he has known about this issue for a while now and has not carried any products from this jackson wire company or any other company that carries products from china. Now he only sells Riverdale and Shepard. So I wasn't sure if silverwolf was aware that Klubertanz does sell shepards wire so he is a distributor as well. Now he does not carry the size we need for sugar gliders in the shepards wire. We have gotten Shepards wire from another place not too far from KLubertanz known as DaMars. These guys do carry the shepards in the proper size. So there are tons of distributors of Shepards wire and if that is the wire you feel safe with then you are able to get it.
We will be open to using Shepards or Riverdale wire on any of our cages. However, Our primary wire is going to be Riverdale wire as this is the best quality wire we have ever used and we know it is safe and wears well. Ken had used Shepard a couple times when Klubertanz was out of our wire and people were waiting on cages. Now he called and complained about this wire at least three times, because he was so used to the quality of Riverdale. He says that the coating is uneven and just doesn't look near as nice and was much harder to work with. He had to throw away a lot of the roll as it had spaces where no pvc was even on the wire. Now that may not happen all the time and maybe we just got a couple bad rolls from these guys. We do have to say that if you want a cage made from Shepards we can do this, but you need to e-mail us about this change and we will give you a quote as we know the cage will be more expensive. This wire costs us a great deal more than the Riverdale, not that the Riverdale is cheap.
If this has been going on for 10 years then I think we can rule Riverdale out. There have been thousands of cages made from Riverdale wire in the last 10 years and not one glider was sick to our knowledge from this wire. I know we built a great deal of cages in our 5 years in business and not one glider ever became sick and these cages are still being used.
I just do not want everyone to freak out and believe that Riverdale wire is bad wire. From the research we did after we got this pm from silverwolf we know it is completely safe. We know for a fact that none of their products came from china or have this problem.
Personally I would give my money to Klubertanz or DaMars versus custom cage works. I was interested in their copper roofs until I knew where they came from. Then I had to think about it as I really wanted one, but then decided I had always said I would not support them and I won't now either.
So if you want Shepards wire and can't get the right size from Klubertanz please e-mail us and we will give you DaMars information if you can't find it on the internet. They are located in South Beloit, IL.
We need to thank Silverwolf for all this information!!!
This has solved us a great deal of worrying. I am confused as to why Richard did not say what the problem was coming from China other than Ken does not ask enough questions unless I am in his ear saying ask this!!! I wasn't there so all I knew was there was a problem with wire coming in from China and Richard had even at that time told us we didn't need to worry about that with our orders from him. Once we called Richard back (this time I was in Ken's ear) and he explained what the problem was and then ken told him what silverwolf had found out and the only thing that Richard was not aware of was the test done by A&M. Other than that he knew the rest. He did thank us for calling him and wanted us to thank silverwolf for going to the lengths he went to as Richard just was not sure what everyone was calling about or he may have at least been able to tell us what the problem was with the wire from China. He wouldn't have known about the testing though and he was interested in hearing about Shepards qualifications and maybe he will talk to Riverdale to see if they have went to these lengths as well.
I still agree about purchasing wire from other people that are not really known just to save a bit of money. It is not worth it and will cost you more in vet bills and possibly the life of your glider/s. I think we can at least lay this to rest, but I was wondering if there was enough proof to at least put a warning about this information silverwolf has found out??? At least that would help people to know what questions to ask when purchasing a cage or their own wire. A lot of people like to save money (especially with the economy being the way it is) and this could be very dangerous. Wire needs to be purchased from a reliable source and so do cages. Now we even have to worry about flight cages that are powder coated as they start out as galvanized wire and are just coated. Maybe it can leach through this coating as well. They should have made them recall all this wire!!!


Danielle
owned by 4 dogs and 2 gliders really soon
Formerly known as K & D Exotics

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: Critter Creations] #648568
10/01/08 08:33 PM
10/01/08 08:33 PM
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Utah
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silverwolf Offline
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I do want to ask when those of you who purchased the e-bay wire did any of you talk directly to the company? I am asking this as it may be extremely important information.

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: silverwolf] #648572
10/01/08 08:43 PM
10/01/08 08:43 PM
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NW Missouri
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I purchased mine from Shawna, so our wire was from the same shipment. She was the one who actually purchased it though.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: princessmegi] #648576
10/01/08 08:52 PM
10/01/08 08:52 PM

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Thank you silverwolf for investigating this for us!

So now, what about Kitty's gliders? I thought she had it narrowed down to the wire? What else could it be? She seemed like she was being pretty thorough - Kitty? Are you still with us?

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: ] #648676
10/01/08 11:13 PM
10/01/08 11:13 PM
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silverwolf Offline
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Well I would really like to know if Shawna had talked to the company or just ordered from e-bay. Also anyone else that has had problems with wire did you talk to the company that sold it to you??

Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: silverwolf] #648691
10/01/08 11:48 PM
10/01/08 11:48 PM
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It's starting to sound like the person who is selling this on ebay (at least) knows the wire is no good and is trying to dump it on unsuspecting people!

I certainly never would have known a thing about any of this if something hadn't happened frown


Keeper of Handprints on my Heart, You left your Footprints on my soul.
My precious loves that left to quickly, Peanut, Katie
Isabella, Kiwi, Bonnie and Monroe.

Spread your wings and glide free of pain,
Until the day I see you again.

God speed my precious angels. I love you. Mama.
Re: Unknown toxin killing gliders [Re: SugarBlossoms] #648726
10/02/08 12:34 AM
10/02/08 12:34 AM
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Utah
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silverwolf Offline
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Well that is why I was asking if anyone ever talked with riverdale mills directly. I did at one point because I liked the blue wire. This is what they told me and my translation now I know about things. They told me that they don't usually use this wire for that type of application (building cages) but if I was interested they would be glad to sell me what I needed. MY translation is we know we are not suppose to sell this wire for animal use but if you folks want it I will be glad to sell it. Now to clarify things Riverdale mills and riverdale wire are not the same company. Riverdale wire is the one klubertanz sells it is not the same and Riverdale wire does not deal with the toxic wire this is the information that I have gathered. The government left this up to the company to tell people the jackson wire was toxic to animals but could be used in cooling towers and such. I honestly believe there are some companies out there that are just trying to offload this stuff and don't care so please beware and watch closely who you deal with for the good of our gliders.

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