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A ton of Q's after what happened #1048778
12/31/10 11:41 AM
12/31/10 11:41 AM

B
buttercup
Unregistered
buttercup
Unregistered
B



If this isn't in the right forum I apologize.

If anyone didnt read the rainbow memorials...Lethe & Tippy's joey did not make it and she passed Wed night. Needless to say I am devastated.

I called and talked to Melissa (Lethe's breeder) and she went thru a checklist of sorts to figure out what might have happened. We discovered:

1. Both parents seemed to be attentive to the joey. Tues night when both were out of the cage pouch and the joey let out a cry...Tippy went back to the pouch. Lethe had been in and out of the pouch over the past few days as well.

2. Looking over the joeys body, there were no physical signs of rejection. No scratches or bite marks anywhere.

3. I'm still new at this but Melissa wanted me to feel Lethe's belly to see if she still had milk...I honestly couldnt tell because I really didn't know what I was feeling for. One side of her felt a tad swollen..but I can't describe really what I was feeling.

4. They are on the HPW diet...I had just made a new breeder batch and was also offering them extra protein (eggs, boiled chicken, etc). And both parents were/are eating well.

5. Melissa also had me look over the joey's body to look and see if I saw a milk pocket..which I didnt see.

So, Melissa figured either Lethe didn't have enough milk and I just didnt know in time to supplement feed the joey...or there was something wrong with the joey.

By question is...if Lethe had enough milk apparantly to keep the joey IP the entire time, why would she suddenly NOT have enough milk once the joey was OOP?? Does her body just assume if the joey detaches that no more milk is needed? I just don't know how milk production works so im curious.

I've heard and read that if there is something "wrong" with joeys, the parents can cannibalize...so if something was in fact wrong with the joey...did I just happen to find the body before they cannibalized? Would the parents put the joey "out of its misery" if they do detect something isn't right with their baby?

Being this was their first joey...could it be that Lethe just didn't know what to do once the joey came OOP?? That if she wasn't letting the joey nurse, the joey could have starved to death? Like she didnt "know" she was supposed to keep nursing? I just assumed its that motherly instinct, but now I dont know.


I have more questions than answers right now.

Re: A ton of Q's after what happened [Re: ] #1048795
12/31/10 12:27 PM
12/31/10 12:27 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline
Tech Admn
GliderNursery  Offline
Tech Admn

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
Unfortunately, in breeding and these things happen, we do tend to have more questions than answers. Melissa gave you a lot to "look" for, but being new and not having her right by your side, it's kind of hard to figure all of these out over the phone.

If everything "looked" normal, and the joey was sufficiently nursing, then there could have been something wrong with the joey. Unfortunately, that you will never know.

I don't think that every glider will cannibalize their joeys, but there is no guarantee one way or the other. It is entirely possible that had you not intervened and removed the joey, they would have taken care of it themselves.

It is also possible, that being the first joey, mom just wasn't quite ready yet. Again, there is no way of knowing this either.

I'm not insisting that you rush to the vet, but it wouldn't hurt to have mom checked out. There is a possibility that she has mastitis. That would be a potential answer to why she was nursing fine, then wouldn't let the baby nurse, and in essence starving the joey. This is entirely speculation though.

The only other thing I can suggest for the future is to get a daily weight using a gram scale that weighs to the hundredth of a gram. If you weigh them the same time every day, you will know sooner if they do not appear to be getting enough milk and you can supplement.

Other than a possibly pouch infection/mastitis, I can't think of a reason why mom would have enough milk during the IP stage, and not enough when the joey came OOP. Well, the only other thing would be the joey does demand more milk as it gets older, maybe she just couldn't keep up? Again, not sure and I don't think this would be something that you can actually prevent in the future.

There are just so many factors, and not much we can do about some things. As long as you have the mom on a good diet, which seems you do, possibly some supplements for her, and pay close attention when the joeys come OOP, there really isn't much more you can do.

Last edited by GliderNursery; 12/31/10 12:28 PM. Reason: sp

Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: A ton of Q's after what happened [Re: ] #1048805
12/31/10 01:14 PM
12/31/10 01:14 PM

B
buttercup
Unregistered
buttercup
Unregistered
B



Thank you Shelly.

Lethe's pouch looks fine...it's clean, her fur looks nice and white, no stains and the pouch opening looks good too. I'll see if I can get her to my vet after the weekend, just to be sure.

I'm not really sure if Lethe wasn't letting the joey nurse...Tippy got real pouch protective and if he was in the pouch..he was very vocal. So, me peeking to see her nurse was impossible because of dad. I just didnt want to disturb them much when they were in the pouch with the joey.

And of course my new digital scale came in the mail the day after I lost the joey. I was using an old fashioned mechanical scale from my neighbor and we oouldnt get a clear weight...but it looked like the joey was 13-14 grams the night she was oop (sunday).


Re: A ton of Q's after what happened [Re: ] #1048817
12/31/10 01:34 PM
12/31/10 01:34 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,532
Kentucky
nancy1202 Offline
Glider Addict
nancy1202  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,532
Kentucky
My apologies in advance for the long, rambling post. :sorry:

Stephanie, you may never get the answers to all of your questions. Losing a joey, and especially your and Lethe's first joey, is devastating and the questions are natural and normal. Breeding has its highs and lows - there is nothing like that moment when you get a chance to hold, cuddle and kiss that tiny little joey for the first time. There is also nothing like what happened to you, and so many of us. It's heartbreaking and makes you want to just snip all the males and be done with it.

For those who don't know, Lethe and my Kaliyah are twins. I am wondering if there is some reason that these girls just don't have enough milk for some reason. Kaliyah is small, at 72 grams, and that worries me. Steph, what does Lethe weigh?

Kaliyah did have mastitis while nursing her second set of joeys. I became concerned about their weights at 3 weeks OOP and started supplementing. A few weeks later, I found bite marks on the joeys faces and took the family to the vet. Mom was diagnosed, started meds, and I pulled the joeys completely at 5 weeks OOP.

Kaliyah's 3rd set of joeys came OOP in October, at healthy weights. At 1 day OOP, Bree, the little girl, was down .9 gram and I started supplementing her. I watched mom nurse the boy, but would push away Bree. She wasn't biting her, but refused to let her nurse. At 2 days OOP, Bree was down to 8.8 grams. Off to the vet I went with the family. Mom was healthy, no signs of recurring mastitis, clean fecals. The vet said that Bree had very little chance of survival. We came home, and I literally started pushing Pedialyte and a dextrose solution down her. For whatever reason, Bree started gaining and thriving. I was able to keep her with her parents, as long as she went back into the pouch with a full belly.

The reason I have gone into this long (and I apologize for that) story is because our girls are twins. My story won't help ease the hurt from what happened, but it may help the next time. These joeys were at good weights when they came OOP. I don't understand why Kaliyah didn't pull one of her joeys if she only had enough milk for one - maybe she was waiting for me to help her! Daily weights, with an accurate scale to at least 0.1 gram, are critical. A weight loss of almost a full gram from 10.4 to 9.6 would not register on a less accurate scale - it would just appear that the weight stayed the same at 10 grams. Weigh at the same time every day, when their bellies are full.

You should definitely take Lethe to the vet to rule out mastitis or another medical problem.

Huge hug2 to you Stephanie. Lethe's joey was "family".


~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Jackson/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Ramon/Paloma, Charming/Snow
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon
Re: A ton of Q's after what happened [Re: ] #1048828
12/31/10 01:54 PM
12/31/10 01:54 PM

B
buttercup
Unregistered
buttercup
Unregistered
B



Thanks for your reply Nancy...Mel told me a little bit about Kaliyah.

Part of me is so worried if and when she gets pregnant again. Will this happen again? Can I catch any problems in time?? And I'm going to start stock piling supplies now. I'll weigh Lethe when I get home from work tonight...with my new scale...which looks to be a good one and it says on the box it is an accurate scale to at least .1 gram. Mel looked it up as well and told me it was a good one for joeys....let's see how Lethe looks on it, cause its a small scale! But it should weigh her just fine if I can keep her on it smile

I do love Lethe and Tippy so much. I've also decided that if this sort of thing keeps happening, Im going to neuter Tippy. I dont want Lethe's body to go thru too much and wear herself out and it certainly won't make me love them any less if they can't breed.

Re: A ton of Q's after what happened [Re: ] #1048841
12/31/10 02:38 PM
12/31/10 02:38 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,532
Kentucky
nancy1202 Offline
Glider Addict
nancy1202  Offline
Glider Addict

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,532
Kentucky
It may never happen again, and I sincerely hope it doesn't! The only way to get SOME answers is to start ruling things out.

To weigh Lethe on a small scale, use a plastic container, tare it to zero, then put her in. thumb


~Nancy~
http://www.derbycitygliders.com

:grey: Jackson/Izzie, Lukas/Leilah, Mizuki/Elektra, Oliver/Ava, Ramon/Paloma, Charming/Snow
Rest of the menagerie: dogs, cats, corn snake, bearded dragon
Re: A ton of Q's after what happened [Re: ] #1048858
12/31/10 03:37 PM
12/31/10 03:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
GliderNursery Offline
Tech Admn
GliderNursery  Offline
Tech Admn

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 20,093
North Central Ohio
Originally Posted By: buttercup

I do love Lethe and Tippy so much. I've also decided that if this sort of thing keeps happening, Im going to neuter Tippy. I dont want Lethe's body to go thru too much and wear herself out and it certainly won't make me love them any less if they can't breed.


Oh I hope that neither of you ever have to go through this ever again!! It is so heartbreaking, and the worst part of breeding. But, I want to commend you on the above statement that you made. clap It's great to see that your love for the gliders significantly outweighs the breeding! hug2


Shelly

Don't sacrifice quality information for convenient information.


Glider Nursery

Sugar Glider Foundation


Re: A ton of Q's after what happened [Re: ] #1049030
12/31/10 09:57 PM
12/31/10 09:57 PM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,871
kentucky
ssdreamsicles Offline
Glider Slave
ssdreamsicles  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,871
kentucky
Steph im sorry i have not posted sooner. You know how sorry i am that you had to go thru this.

Id also like to know lethes weight.
For the first 2 weeks at least if not longer i weigh each joey daily. This helps to know if there is any weight loss at all. Even .2 grams is a reason to watch.

I wish there was reason to know why this happens.

Re: A ton of Q's after what happened [Re: ] #1049073
01/01/11 12:26 AM
01/01/11 12:26 AM

B
buttercup
Unregistered
buttercup
Unregistered
B



I'm glad you were there for me the other night Mel...sorry I called so late tho. I was just so wigged out.

I'm diligently reading Suz's site as well...thanks for that tip also on all the info she has there...wow!

Lethe is acting pretty normal tonight...was in the wheel earlier when I got home. I know the won't show emotions like people do, but man...sometimes I wish they did frown

Re: A ton of Q's after what happened [Re: ] #1049077
01/01/11 01:12 AM
01/01/11 01:12 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,871
kentucky
ssdreamsicles Offline
Glider Slave
ssdreamsicles  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,871
kentucky
YW steph and not a prob at all on the time.

Do me a favor and get a weight on lethe for me k?

Suz site is the bomb!

Re: A ton of Q's after what happened [Re: ] #1049250
01/01/11 05:49 PM
01/01/11 05:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
S
sugarlope Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
sugarlope  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
S

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 19,742
in my happy place
I haven't read all of the responses, but I wanted to comment on the milk. (Sorry if this has already been said). If the joey was too weak to suck strongly, then milk production would have slowed just like in humans. Joeys also drink more as they grow, so it is possible that mom wasn't able to keep up. It is so difficult to know. There could be so many reasons for the joeys sudden death with no apparent cause. It's kind of like SIDS in humans, there are a lot of theories, but no one really know why it happens, sometimes little ones just don't make it.

I am so sorry hug2


~Gretchen

If we never loved, then maybe we would never feel pain. Love anyway. It's worth it.

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