I just found out a few days ago that one of my long time breeding pairs is from a sterile line When you initially look through my gliders line her lineage looks really great. She is bred out and COI is amazing! You trace all the way back and you can't see any evidence of sterility. BUT if you go all the way back to one of the founding gliders and look at all of his joeys, there is a note on one of his joeys (a sibling to my direct line) that they are from sterile producing lines. Unfortunately somewhere down the line a breeder failed to inform a buyer of this, so here we are several years later! Non-sterile mosaic, leucistic and platinum have all been introduced to this line. Fortunately I had already planned on neutering boys, and current joeys are now going to be sold as pet only, and I've notified breeding homes that joeys were placed in.

BUT my point of this post is really not to complain about how I didn't know, but to educate myself and others about know genetic problems besides some of the more obvious like sterile mosaic lines. I'm going to list what I now know and PLEASE if you know of something else list them so we can share the info and prevent problems like this from happening. Also to help newbies (or not newbies in my case, lol)looking through lineage but unaware of what to look for.

I also want to add that even if you are looking at getting or already have a gray glider, your glider can still be from these lines! If you are looking to bred then do your research on pairings. I really think it's important to keep clean lines!

So here goes:

This is the glider that I just found out about who comes from white tip lines, but also in my case was introduced to platinum, mosaic and leu He is from sterile lines. In my case they are producing.
*STERLING* he is listed in TPG as champagn colored. Only joey listed out of Chanel and Cherie.
http://www.thepetglider.com/pedigree/modules/animal/pedigree.php?pedid=580

Gliders to look for in sterile mosaics:
Sally, Ms. Leu, Lollie, Tilly, Helena, Heidi, Bianca, Ms. Kitty, Kit and Kat, Heather, Sierra, Juliet, Ribbon

Known for producing wiggle babies:
Frodo line closely bred with another Frodo line baby. He is a white face in TPG.

So that is my extent of knowledge of what lines have known defects. Can anyone add to the list?


I also want to add, I'm not saying don't breed these lines. I'm just saying that breed responsibly. I'm saddened that this line was introduced to leu, mosaic and platinum

What is a wiggle baby?

Actually Teri, Sterling is a female. She has 3 offspring listed in The Pet Glider database; Darius (male), Sharay (female) and Willow ( female). Darius has no offspring in TPG, the majority of Sharay's joeys listed in TPG are male, pet only. One female Joey from Sharay has been bred. Sharay is the only one noted as being from sterile producing lines. Darius and Sharay are full brother and sister (Buddha is their dad).
Willow is from Sterling but dad is Bailey. She has 2 female offspring listed in TPG; Eternity and Lorie. Both have been bred. Eternity is the one who has produced WT's and is 50%leu het. So she is the one how has WT descendants.

It is my belief that the 'Frodo' issue still is being debated. It may not be frodo, but his mates who carried possible wiggle issues.

Now i'm curious too...what is the wiggle issue?

Me 3.....??

http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/1009715/1

Read that thread.

There are also polydactyl gliders. This is caused from inbreeding. While on the surface, it appears the only "side effect" are the extra toes but with polydactyls in other species there can be a host of other "hidden" genetic problems.


There was also a pair that consistantly had "short tailed" joeys. I don't know if that was over enthusiastic grooming by the parents while the joeys were ip or if it is a genetic issue. Again, no other known effects except for the short tails but if genetic, there could be other hidden issues that haven't surfaced yet.

Thanks for adding that Dancing! I have seen several joey polydactyl gliders listed for sale.

I hadn't thought about the short tails but that's something to think about too.

Anyone else think of anything please add! I think it could help a lot of people!

Since when are polydactyl a product of inbreeding? As far as I know I'm the only one producing polydactyl gliders and they aren't the product of inbreeding. They have been seen by many vets, including Dr. Tristan, who all agree that they are perfectly healthy and safe to breed.



Where have you seen a lot of polydactyl gliders being bred? As far as I know there is only one polydactyl glider currently being bred and that is Friday, owned by Tyler. This glider was not bred by me. I have produced 7 polydactyl gliders here and they have all went to pet only homes, not because I don't think they are safe to breed, but because that is just how it worked out.

Jason Karadeema also had a polydactyl glider. It was not an inbred glider at all, had great genetics. I don't know for sure if he was kept as a pet or not.

I did discuss the polydactyl situation with my vet (as I was interested in Jason's glider at the time). He said that it can either be genetic or happenstance.

If it's genetic (as in Lynsie's gldiers since she has produced more than one) then it can and will be passed to the offspring.

If it's happenstance, as we believe it was with Jason's glider (no other polydactyl in that line for over 5+ generations), then it wouldn't necessarily been passed down.

I don't think it's a result of inbreeding though.

Maybe not "a lot" it may have been an overstatement. Actually all the ones I've seen listed are yours. I just didn't want to point fingers like it was a bad thing. I really have no idea about the line. It is a defect. Underlying issues I have no idea but it is a defect.

But none of my joeys are being bred.... The parents themselves are not polydactyls.

The one Jason produced was sold to Tyler, it's the one he's breeding.

My pairs lines are very similar to Jason's pairs. My pair is not polydactyl, does not have any polydactyls in thier lineage but they have produced polydactyls.

I changed my wording. I meant that I see breedings that produce them not polydactals actually breeding. Sorry for confusion!

Okay, thanks.

I wanted to bump up to the top to see if anyone had anything to add about gliders with genetic defects in the lines. Are there any more that are known. Please share!

There was quite a heated uproar back when I posted claiming the "wiggle" ... uh ... thing ... was genetic.

Based on responses at that time, the consensus was that it is not genetic. Rather an unfortunate result of inbreeding. I was instructed not to claim it was because of Frodo's line, or his mate's line, or anything remotely genetic. Just one of those "these things happen when you inbreed any line" type of things.

I'm interested if the knowledge on this has changed? Especially since I was treated none-too-kindly (understatement) for daring to suggest it was remotely possible it was a genetic condition.

Hum I only read one brief post on it so I really don't know much. But I'm very open to being educated on it. Sorry if I implied it was genetic if its not. That's why I hoping people will stop by and post here so we can all learn!

I'm going to have to disagree about your poly-dactyl babies not being a product of inbreeding...

Their mom, Allaira, has a COI of 12.5% and the dad, Bear, has a COI of 13.2%. The babies themselves have a COI of 8.2%. That, IMO, equals severe inbreeding. :/

As you know, I had the wiggle babies born here from my 2 gliders who, themselves, were not inbred, but they were uncle and niece. The wiggle babies have a COI of 6.5%.

According to modern society, inbreeding/line-breeding is considered to be anything closer than second cousins. It's proven that a breeding closer then second cousins is at a much higher risk for the occurrence of hidden health issues popping up in the babies.

A first cousin pairing, which is most assuredly considered inbreeding, has a COI of 6.5%. So, your pairing would be considered to be even worse then pairing first cousins.

All that being said, I think it's safe to conclude that your polydactyl babies are, indeed, inbred. Also, imo, the parents should have never been bred to begin with due to their extremely high COI's and the fact that they're STILL being bred is rather disconcerting. :/

Okay, going back to my hidey-hole now...

That still isn't inbreeding, those gliders were line bred to produce new lines of WF's that you guys currently have today. If us breeders didn't do so in the beginning you wouldn't have the great coi's that you see today. My pair is 5 1/2 years old. If polydactyl were produced by inbreeding gliders then I beleive we would have seen a lot more produced over the years of breeding out colored lines.

Polydactyl... interesting. It is a Genetic Mutation. Google Polydactyl Cats. Also occures in Genie Pigs and a few other animals including humans. X-Ray is needed for animals that have normal looking feet as a nub cannot be seen or felt if the animal is polydactyl. Since it seems to be a dominant gene responsible for extra digits... then one of the parents must be a carrier in order for the offspring to be Polydactyl. No nubs on feet shown in an X-Ray... the two animals would not he carriers and thus no Polydactyl offspring would have been produced due to the fact the gene is dominant. Remember.. only one parent need to have a nub to be a carrier for polydactyl.


Now to the Wobble Babies.... Google search "Ataxia". This is a brain disorder caused by a disease/illness which causes wobbly, uncordinated movements and so forth as displayed in the Wobble Babies. This is NOT a genetic disorder.

I hope I have helped a few people here understand a little more clearly as to what is Genetic and what is Not. . Please do not jump to conclusions as to a genetic disorder when a animal does not alwasy conform to the standard healthy animal.

As to breeding out the sterility... it would take at least five generations of producing males from females to be positive the line was clean from sterility. Only a large breeder doing so in a controled setting and by that I mean all offspring had not been released till it was proven that the sterility was bred out... should any of those animals been released. Knowing who the breeder was... I think most of the animals were sold as pets for several generations with many being kept at the facility. All I can say... be sure and check your lineages when purchasing and then double check to be sure you are purchasing what you are looking for as a possible breeder for breeding.

I have seen gliders that exhibited a very pug looking face where the snout is about half the length of a normal glider.

Judie - there is no conclusive proof that the wiggle gliders have Ataxia. There is no diagnosis. So you cannot say conclusively that it is NOT a genetic disorder. Any more than it can be said conclusively that it IS.

If there is no conclusion as to why those babies Wobble... why is it... about every three months or so for the past fhree or four years it comes up as a genetic issue and linked back to Fro?

I would think it would be much easier to rule out the possibility of illness with testing of those babies.

Hey, since everyone is trying to learn, Adri did a very nice post a while back that helps explain some glider genentics. It was about coi, but it touches on inbreeding and dominant and recessive defects. She does mention Polydactyl, but does not specifically say she is speaking of gliders, so I assume she meant polydactyl in animals that they have really looked at the genes and figured out how it works. She can speak to that if I am wrong, but I just didn't mean for this to contribute to the Polydactyl debate (and that is certinaly not what her post was aimed at), only to general genetic knowledge.

http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/...it_r#Post981651

Judie, I can't speak for the other people who have wiggle babies, but mine are all much smaller then normal-sized gliders. Also, I spoke with my vet about the concerns of putting the babies under for getting blood samples and she felt that it was extremely risky due to their condition. She also was not comfortable with the idea of getting blood samples from a conscience glider, which is what someone else had suggested.

Due to the above reasons I didn't feel it was worth the risk just to get a blood sample that would most likely result in no answers. I've spoke with a few vets about it and have come to the conclusion that it is most likely cerebellar abiotrophy or cerebellar hypoplasia, which is also common in certain breeds of dogs and horses and both display very similar symptoms to what the gliders are showing.

The only way to know if it is one of the above diseases is to do an examination of the effected gliders' brain, which, of course, can't be done until the glider has passed away.

Hopefully you read Adri's post before you are reading this, but I wanted to explain one more piece which may be helpful:

ALL of our animals, nomatter how carefully bred, carry some bad genes (even if a perfect animal did exist and was bred with a perfect animal the offspring would have defects, because genes are constantly mutating and new defects being created in every animal that they will then pass on). Most are recessive, thankfully. So, as long as you do not pair them with another glider with that recessive bad gene you will never see the defect. Any other glider in the population might have that defect, we have no way of knowing, but relatives of our glider have similar genetics, so they will be the most likely to be a bad genetic match, make sense? I know we are born with the instinct that matching up with relatives is bad, but this is the logical reason for that instinct. So, we try to limit the mutations we can by not inbreeding, but they can stll occur through happenstance as well.

Dominant defects occur more rarely but spread easily becasue no match is needed. Inbreeding is not really a concern with dominant defects because there is no need, it spreads just fine nomatter what glider it is paired with.

Most genetic defects are neither of the above. Disheartening but true. Most involve more than one gene which means you can have all sorts of complicated combinations of the above making it difficult to see predictable patterns that would tell us what is going on or even if it is genetic at all.

This is humbling, and that is my point. I have only seen two posts on gc that have looked to me like people actually in the genetic field who know enough to be qualified to speak to most of this. Not to say we should not be trying to figure it out; we need to do the best we can for our animals! But we need to do it humbly.

Maybe the first step is simple semantics. Maybe instead of genetic "defect" or "problem" we need to say "mutation." If these are in fact genetic, they are certainly "defects" in terms of wildlife population, but so are all of the recessive colors, and I have not seen them listed here yet.

I think the "wiggle gene," if it is in fact a gene, is a clear example of a defect as well as sterility. The others could be argued either way. One might say that so far they have not been clearly demonstrated to harm the gliders or offspring in any way. Another might say why take the chance? Maybe its good we have both. We have some trying it out and others not touching it so that some lines will remain clean in case we see a problem down the line. Adventurers always want conservative types (not politically speaking) to lighten up; but conservative types are the safety net if the adventure goes wrong. The conservative types want adventureres to get back down in the box where everybody belongs, but adventurures are creating the newer better box that everyone will use in time. Let's try to be patient with everybody's respective place in the grand scheme.

All domesticated animals get changed from their wild counterparts by mutation while in captivity. It is not outlandish to think there could one day be a hairless, tailess glider twice the size of a glider today. I'm not saying whether there should be or not, that will be decided by the community one step at a time based on what we see happening in the lives of gliders with each mutation, but have you ever been to a dog show??? Or if you don't like dog breeding history (I don't) just look at cows, which are considered to have been a very responsibly bred species. So much mutation! So much variety! All very healthy. This can be done well.

Point: we need to hold the line on true genetic defects (anything clearly harming our captive gliders or their offspring). They are bad for our gliders, period (sterile line producing is a little grey. IMHO, because it was for sure a genetic defect in the line at one time it is important to always have a significant number of breeders who are against it and keep their lines clean of it, especially in recessive color populations). When true defects are found they need to be bred out, ideally through ending the lines with the bad mutation (how to irradicate the mutation is a whole other topic). For the rest of the mutations my little opinion is that we need to have different schools of thought in practice and the different thoughts need to be nice to each other unless a real geneticist comes on here and sets us straight that a certain mutation is certainly fine or bad.


So go ask your vet and use the info you find anywhere to do what you think is best with your animals. Share info with each other that you have observed or gotten from other sources, but respect that others have done the same and come to a different conclusion. If vets disagree (they are not geneticists either, but they know more about it than most, maybe all, of us), I suspect it is becasue there is no real way to know yet and so some will want to try it and others will feel more cautious. Good.

I'm not accusing anybody of meaness here, but I think a reminder is nice now and then why the other side is valuable, too

One other thought; all mutations need to be well documented in the database in case any problem is found down the line AND so that those who are trying ot keep their lines clean of certain mutations can do so. I think we all agree on that; and I think Priscilla has helped add things to the database in that effort, so its good to make it known if there is an inaccuracy about that and as breeders we need to make sure not to get lazy about that when we enter joeys. Have a different opinion, yes, but allow others to have the info so they can execute their opinion as well.