http://www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?whichpage=9&TOPIC_ID=29199&#416194

In this post you say:


In this post you posted pictures
http://www.sugarglider.com/glidergossip/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=48392

This is the pic


Now on to my questions:
Is this your glider?
Is it some kind of special genetics that makes it BROWN?
Is its fur cracked?
Is this glider on your diet?
How many breeding pairs do you own?
How many joeys do they have or had?
How many joeys have been lost?
Can you provide current pictures of your gliders?
Have you made any changes or done any research or blood tests, x-rays, ANYTHING to substantiate this diet being safe and wholesome for the gliders?
What efforts have been done to prevent further issues like what was presented to you over a year ago?
I thought you removed your diet from public use? Wasn't that stated so you could work on fixing it? Why is it back up on your site with no changes or warnings?
With the name change of your diet, were there CHANGES made to it?

Please I beg you all, do not turn this into a bash and rant so it ends up getting pulled. Let's be civil and get the answers that could potentially benefit a lot of new owners out there.

Finessa, You posted these questions on LGG and I have already posted my answers. I see no reason to repeat myself.

If anyone wishes to join the discussion it can be found here:

http://lauriesglidergazette.forumotion.com/

For those of you concerned about the glider in the photo:
Yes that glider is Archie. The photo was taken to illustrate the use of a hanging feeder cup. It was taken shortly after he joined our family. He had been raised on fruit shaped parrot food.

If you would like to look over my GliderKids Feeding Plan you will find the information on how my plan was developed and modified here:

http://www.gliderkids.com/GKSFeedingPlanHistory.pdf

My feeding plan and GliderKids Staple recipes:

http://www.gliderkids.com/GKSFeedingPlan2013.pdf

Thank you Finessa for providing the opportunity to post links to my feeding plan.

Candy - that forum is not available to just anyone to join. I would greatly appreciate it if you would just take a moment to at least copy/paste your responses here. I honestly think that this is very important and needs to be openly discussed.

Sorry Candy but I will not be adding new people to LGG just so they can read answers you can easily post here. LGG is not a forum for everyone and we don't just add people for one post. You know this already.

I posted this here because the newer owners/breeders as well as the under 18 individuals who aren't even allowed access to LGG at all need to see these questions and answers so they can make accurate choices in picking diets. They are important questions and not attacks.

RESPONSES COPIED FROM LGG AND EDITED FOR THIS FORUM

Is this glider on your diet that you claim is healthy for gliders even though so many issues have surfaced? The photo was taken when he was new to my home and before my staple recipes had been developed.

How many breeding pairs do you own? 1 pair now retired from breeding because the family colony is complete.
How many joeys do they have or had? 6 - 5 are part of the colony, 1 is with Art and Paulette
How many joeys have been lost? none

Why do we never see pics of these joeys? There have been a few posted here and there. I don't post photos just for the 'aw they are cute' replies
Can you provide current pictures of your gliders? I'll try to get some current ones for you when I get my camera back from my son. I have not taken any photos lately.

Have you made any changes or done any research or blood tests, x-rays, ANYTHING to substantiate this diet being safe and wholesome for the gliders?

I have made changes in my recipes. http://www.gliderkids.com/GKSFeedingPlanHistory.pdf


The body maintains its blood calcium level regardless of the amount of calcium consumed daily. A complex system involving hormones regulate the amount of calcium deposited in the bones or drawn out of the bones and amounts of calcium excreted or retained by the kidneys to maintain this homeostasis.

Quote:

A blood calcium test cannot be used to check for a lack of calcium in your diet or for the loss of calcium from the bones (osteoporosis). The body can have normal calcium levels even if your diet does not have enough calcium in it. Other tests, such as bone mineral density, check the amount of calcium in the bones.

More information can be found in this article.
http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/calcium-ca-in-blood

It has been suggested that a Bile Acid Test be done. This test is done SPECIFICALLY to test for Liver Disease and does not test how food is metabolized. This test was never done on a glider prior to 2009. This testing was first done as an alternative to a liver biopsy on a glider found to have a liver tumor shown on x-ray.
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/799282/2

In most animals this test is done with two blood draws - one before feeding and one 2 hours after a full meal to compare the rate the bile acid falls after eating. If the liver is normal it falls fairly quickly, if it is abnormal the bile acid reabsorbed by the gut is not cleared from the blood well so the post feeding levels are elevated. I would be interested to see how the procedure is adapted for gliders as it would be difficult to do two blood draws under anesthesia in the same day, much less trying to get a glider to eat a substantial amount between the two blood draws. A single blood draw would not be as useful as the pre/post meal comparison

Blood testing for calcium and phosphorus levels is NOT a valid measure of the calcium adequacy in the diet. Bile Acid Testing is not a valid test for the nutritional content of the food eaten, it is specific for testing liver function. I will not risk putting my gliders under anesthesia for testing that is not useful.


I thought you removed your diet from public use? Wasn't that stated so you could work on fixing it? Why is it back up on your site with no changes or warnings? I took my feeding plan down for the sole purpose of putting an end to the personal attacks. The discussions had nothing to do with the diet at that point
With the name change of your diet, were there CHANGES made to it? Or new name is like putting a rug over your actions or lack there of?
Read the link I posted above

Candy, there are legitimate, and serious concerns regarding your diet. There were several reported issues. Have you addressed these issues with the change in the cereal and WHPS? If so, how will these changes remove the future potential of the previous issues?

What efforts have been done to prevent further issues like what was presented to you over a year ago?

Did you run your previous diet and current diet by a vet and/or an animal nutritionist?

My main issue in this Candy, is that even with pulling down the recipe from your site for the BLENDED diet, you never made any kind of public acknowledgement about the issues that were going on. You never made any kind of effort to make people who were and are still currently using the diet aware of it. People had pdf copies of the diet, they didn't have to keep coming to the site to get a fresh look. You then changed the name and it then looks to some newer people that you never had a bad diet, you only have this NEW diet. When in fact it is a SLIGHTLY altered version of the previous version.

I see you removed the cereal... was there a deciding factor in doing so? What made you choose that specific ingredient?

I see you say you increased the WHPS but you also increased everything else in order to make larger batches at one time. How do you know the measurement of WHPS is accurate and/or safe?

What about the increase in other ingredients? Are you certain it is safe?

Will it come down to in the end once again, that after a year or more of using the diet people will begin to see problems as happened with The Blended diet?

Past reports of issues were fully beaten into the ground two years ago.

If anyone currently using my GliderKids Feeding Plan has concerns I will gladly discuss this with the owner that has first hand observations to discuss.

There are no ingredients in my recipes that are not used in a number of other glider feeding plans. There are no perfect glider staples. If you do not care for a feeding plan you are free to choose another.

Yes, my recipes have my vet's approval. She feels my gliders are all very healthy.

If anyone has specific questions or concerns about my recipes please feel free to ask.

There were concerns expressed that the iron fortified baby cereal added too much iron to glider diets. I removed the baby cereal from the recipe and added additional Wombaroo High Protein Supplement in its place. This modification allowed a slight reduction of the calcium supplement while still keeping the ratio of the staple after preparation close to a 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio.

The calcium content of the staple allows any combination of fruits and vegetables to be fed with it with out reducing the overall ratio of the entire feeding below 1.5:1.

Beaten into the ground, kind of. The issues were never addressed by you as the diet creator. How are we to know that this diet will not continue to cause issues? Since you have been posting it lately, people are going to become more aware of it and new owners will start using it. Will we see a repeat of the past issues with new users?

If you are not prepared to discuss the issues and if your changes to the diet have addressed those past concerns, then I cannot see how this diet can be recommended or safely used. Was your vet made aware of the past issues? And if so, what was suggested?

Are there specific things your vet looks at/for when seeing your gliders and overlooking the diet plan? Or is it just well check weights and fecals? I'm with Shelly, was your vet made aware of any issues that were brought upon by The Blended diet/Gliderkids diet?

Animal feed that has recalls HAS to show that whatever the issue was that caused the recall was taken care of....and that is according to the FDA. Obviously our diets are NOT FDA regulated BUT, Surely it would be safe to have found out what exactly was causing issues with one diet before choosing to modify it and smack a new name on it right?

Someone on GG is calling you the most knowledgable diet person they know. Maybe the issues were beaten into the ground, but newer members deserve knowing there were concerns that were never addressed.

Fwiw, i applaud you for recommending a diet that isn't your own to the poster on GG.

Shannon, the issues included, stained or cracked fur, and if I recall correctly reduced energy. These were reported by a few breeders who never approached me directly with their concerns. Surprisingly, none of these breeders took these gliders to their vet. Instead, they switched their gliders to HPW and within a very short time - some less than a week - the issues all resolved.

My attempts to discuss the types of vegetables fed with the staple, heating and dry air conditions (the discussion took place about this time of year) or other possible contributing factors were met with hostility. The 5 or 6 breeders that reported these issues all refused to discuss their concerns directly with me. Apparently only breeders were having problems at the time.

The whole thread eventually shifted focus away from discussion of the staple recipes and on to rather negative comments aimed at me personally.

I did remove my feeding plan from my web page - to end the personal bashing that was taking place on 3 different forums. I received many emails after that time from folks that were very happy with my feeding plan and requesting copies because they had been referring to the web page and had not printed a copy for themselves.

If you have other questions I will be happy to address them.

What about the reported issues of increased rates of cannibalization, low OOP weights, malnutrition, and weight loss?

If this person on GG considers Candy to be the most knowledgeable diet person they know, I would like to know what credentials Candy has.

Does she have a degree in animal science? Animal nutrition?
If she doesn't have a veterinarian or animal nutritionist helping her with her diet, then she must hold a degree in animal nutrition.

Candy, you stated this over on LGG. Several of the breeders who had issues aren't a part of LGG for one reason or another so I will share it here.



Can you please explain what you mean by hidden agenda? One breeders glider died, the necropsy stated Malnutrition was the cause of death. There is no hidden agenda in a loss of life.

Why would the diet not publicly be redacted and fixed rather than pull it to save face? The only people who knew of the issues were those present when it happened and those present in the posts. Whether there was one bad effect or a million bad effects, something should have been done to find out WHY it was happening. Things turned hostile because you refused to even consider that the diet as a whole could have been an issue and not the little sidebars you were trying to come up with.

People may not see issues in their diet right away, animals are the same. We constantly tell people that if they don't like how a diet works for us and our animals that we should pick another. These breeders did just that and their animals health did a 360, it wasn't DAYS some took weeks, others took months. Improvements were seen within DAYS. Not full recovery. They were then met by a creator with blinders on when the issues are being discussed, surely it wasn't pretty. Not a single person came forward because they thought it must have only been happening to them when in fact there were at least a dozen if not more. Slowly over the last 2 years more popped up as recently as this past November. Posted right here on GC. It wasn't a one time occurrence.

I just wanted to hop in and say that blood tests CAN show a lack of calcium, but you have to test for Calcium AND Phosphorus. If a glider isn't getting enough Calcium then the Phosphorus levels will be significantly higher. The normal calcium ratios for a glider are 2:1, so if the blood's Cal:Phos ratios are significantly different than 2:1 it signifies a problem. When I had my gliders on HPW their ratios were about 10:1(if I remember correctly...I'll have to try and dig up the info), which is how my vet found out that they were lacking calcium, in addition to the outward signs.

So, blood tests DO help to determine whether or not a diet is doing it's job. Tests can be done for other things as well, such as iron levels.

It appears that some individuals wish to revisit all of the past discussions about my original recipes which was called the Blended diet.



Rather than attempting to recreate the discussions - I have found links to some early discussions of the original Blended diet
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/889048/Blended_diet#Post889048

If you want to know my responses to the concerns that were raised two years ago, here is part one of the thread. I could not find Part Two.
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/1068095/1

Finessa - I intentionally removed that portion of my responses to your questions which was copied from LGG. I am unable to elaborate on what I believe was a hidden agenda because it would touch on topics other than my own feeding plan.




Protein, Carbohydrates, Fat, Fiber, Iron, Vitamins and Minerals are nutrients found in foods. They are not nutritionally specific to animals or humans.

My education and experience is only an issue to those who are trying to discredit my development of recipes for my glider staple recipes. I have a BS Degree in Nursing from Duke University. My professional experience in nursing included a number of continuing education courses in nutrition - primarily for infants and toddlers. I worked for many years as a team member at program for young children with developmental developmental disabilities. Part of my role in this position was to evaluate the nutritional needs of children with various limitations in their feeding skills. For this population it was important to provide nutrient rich meals - often in small volume servings to help these children gain weight, increase muscle mass and promote their overall health. I worked with a number of physicians and therapists who referred parents to me for help in providing the nutrients these children needed. My interest in evaluating nutritional content of diets began many years before any one was keeping gliders as pets in the US.

Yes, I am guilty of breaking down diets on paper. I applied my diet evaluation skills and experience in planning feedings for children, to evaluating the glider feeding plans that were in use in 2008 when I got my first gliders.
Same evaluation skills - the portions were just much smaller.

In 2008 there was a huge focus on calcium to phosphorus ratios. Everyone was frustrated trying to choose the perfect vegetables and fruits to get a 2:1 ratio.

Unfortunately, many owners misunderstood the concept of ratios and were adding ratios rather than calculating the ratios based on the amounts of calcium and phosphorus in the volume of the foods they were choosing. The focus was on only the ratios of fruits and vegetables - without accounting for the ratio or amounts of calcium and phosphorus in their staple of choice fed with those fruits and vegetables. Since that time, I have made many posts to help people learn to 'do the math' to calculate ratios correctly.

At that time there were posts almost daily - "my glider won't eat fruit" or "my glider won't eat vegetables" Many folks thought there was too much honey in some diets, not enough in others. People tried substituting part of the honey with applesauce or making other modifications to existing staples in a major effort to get their gliders to eat fruits and vegetables. I wondered about the nutritional changes, not just the amount of honey when diets were modified.

I could not find any information giving the specific amounts of various nutrients gliders needed daily. I still have not been able to find that information. Without existing guidelines, I decided to evaluate the existing glider diets to see - what do they have in common, what are the nutritional differences, and what is the RANGE (high & low) values for the nutrients contained in the various glider staple recipes. From this research I determined the amounts of protein, sugar, fat, fiber in each diet recipe - in addition to the amounts of calcium and phosphorus. (I researched iron content over a year later) This research gave me a better idea of the nutritional content of many existing glider diets - My goal in writing my own recipes was to provide nutrient amounts between the highest and lowest values found in diets already shown to maintain gliders successfully.

The recipes for the Blended diet met that goal. As a bonus I discovered that gliders on this diet no longer refused the fruits and vegetables offered with the staple.

The recipes contained only ingredients already in wide use for glider feedings. I was not introducing any food product that had been never been offered to gliders before. The recipes contain standard ingredients in slightly different amounts.

The individuals who expressed concern about their gliders health focused ONLY on the staple. My attempts to discuss other elements of their gliders life that may have been factors in their observations were rejected. This group of individuals focused ONLY on the staple and blamed me personally.

Have there been incidents of joey loss in homes feeding other generally accepted glider feeding plans? Was the diet the only 'cause' identified or considered?

Have gliders had cracked fur or discoloration on other generally accepted glider feeding plans? Is there a feeding plan that has NEVER had gliders experience cracking fur?

I have shared my educational back ground and experience with evaluating foods and meal plans for their nutritional values. Has this information been sought from ANY other individual who has written a recipe for a staple or 'treat' for gliders? If it is relevant, perhaps others will share their information as well.

I have modified my recipes to reduce the iron content and lower the amount of calcium supplement needed to maintain a 2:1 ratio. Other feeding plans have made major changes in the amounts of one ingredient or another without notice or announcement. Priscilla Price's recipe has change at least 3 times since 2008. HPW called for 2 TBS of bee pollen until it was corrected to be 1 TBS. Have other recipe modifications required detailed reasons, announcements to the public that changes have been made or detailed explanations of why those changes were made?

I did change the name of my feeding plan from Blended Diet to GliderKids Staple because there had been individuals that confused the specific Blended Diet with any diet mixture prepared using a blender. There were others that thought the name meant that I had mixed the recipes for BML and HPW to come up with my recipe. My recipes were designed to provide nutrients mid-range between the amounts of nutrients found those diets, not to combine the two. Truth be told, in evaluating all of the diets in use in 2008 when I charted out the ingredients selected for use in all the various recipes, I became aware that the ingredients found in Reeps Wombaroo and those found in Original HPW - together - were similar to the list of ingredients found in BML. That is the extent of the 'blending' or combining of two recipes in the process of developing my diet. The name change was not a 'cover up' or 'sweep it under the rug' attempt. It was a way of identifying my recipes more clearly as my own work.

I have one question, that only requires a simple yes or no answer.

Do you consider the presented issues and change your diet to eliminate or reduce those issues in your current recipe?

In my personal opinion, after reading this entire thread Candy has already answered all questions.

The individuals who claimed the previously presented issues were not willing to engage in a meaningful discussion of other contributing factors, such as environmental issues like dry heated rooms or possibly colder than usual weather (the first concerns were raised 2/6/2011). I asked them for input on the fruits and vegetables they routinely fed, so I could see they types and variety that had been offered along side the staple. That information was never shared with me.

I have no knowledge of the length of time the gliders had been fed my staple recipe. I was not informed about which other diets they had been fed previously and for what length of time. The issues described were seen in only homes with breeding gliders but no information on the history of those gliders was shared such as the age of the gliders, how many joeys they had and over what period of time.

I was never presented with definitive information that caused me to believe that my staple recipe - and only my staple recipe - was the sole cause of the issues they had observed.

I reviewed all of my ingredient choices, revised my recipes to reduce the iron content based on input expressing concern about iron supplements in the baby cereal. Replacing the cereal with additional Wombaroo High Protein Supplement allowed a slight reduction in the calcium supplement.

I did not change my recipe for the purpose of eliminating or reducing those presented issues. Eliminating the presented issues is not within my power.

The presented issues had occurred before I developed my feeding plan and will continue occur regardless of the feeding plan used. These were never unique problems associated ONLY with my staple recipe.

Is there a staple recipe or feeding plan for sugar gliders that has NEVER had an issue associated with it?

Do any of the feeding plans unconditionally guarantee that a glider will never have a health issue as long as they are fed that staple?

The number of individuals that contacted me stating that they were pleased with their gliders health and that their gliders ate my staple, along with fruits and vegetables very well, far out numbered the few individuals who had issues.

I found it unusual that the few individuals that had issues, all apparently occurring about the same time, felt they should have their concerns announced by an individual whose own gliders were not involved. None of them had contacted me personally to express those concerns. The announcement of their concerns was made 2/6/2011.

Finessa -Have you had personal experience with my feeding plan? Did you have a specific reason for bringing this up almost 2 years after the initial discussion. In retrospect, the timing of this thread is as interesting as the timing of the original discussion. Perhaps you just wanted to celebrate the anniversary.

I have always fed a safe and long standing diet to my gliders. I did not/ will not ever use your diet nor will I ever recommend someone to do so. Your lack of action in previous issues and current questioning does not settle the issues that did occur whether you choose to own those issues or not. I'm sorry that you do not like to have your diet questioned as every other diet known in the glider community has been questioned. Maybe you should take some time to reflect on your actions, you have no issue questioning other diets and making accusations against them that are false yet choose to not handle issues and questions against your own in a professional manner.

My bringing up of these past issues and old/new/revised diet questions has absolutely nothing to do with previous threads. If that had been the case I would have contacted each and every one of those breeders/owners to come share their piece once again which I did not. As I said, your diet has every right to be questioned same as all the rest. You made no real attempt to get to the bottom of previous issues, so to see that you reposted your diet with VERY slight modifications AND a new name brought up questions. As I told you yesterday, I do NOT follow you nor visit your site frequently, honestly after seeing the posts on GG it was then that I went to your site for the first time in over 2 years. I could be wrong but I don't believe I even posted in the previous threads, I know I didn't on LGG so the likelihood of me doing so here is slim. I had no idea you chose to repost your diet on the site being you never mentioned relaunching it.

Instead of trying to find answers to concerns you just claimed there were hidden agendas. Once again I will state, MALNUTRITION is not caused by humidity or dryness. Fur loss, canibalization, loss of joeys, loss of weight, lack of energy is NOT caused by humidity or dryness.

If you chose to do let's say weight watchers and died, your autopsy says MALNUTRITION is the cause of death and your children then question the makers and are asked to describe the humidity or lack thereof in your home, would they not be angry or feel insulted? Then find out the makers are claiming there is a hidden agenda behind the issues(death) would they not be offended?

If you don't like answering to your own actions or lack thereof Candy, perhaps you shouldn't be questioning another on theirs. Maybe you should work on an appropriate approach to the concerns laid before you rather than just removing one ingredient and slapping a new name on it.

Thank you Candy for answering my question. If you weren't provided all of the necessary information needed to evaluate the situations, I don't have any other questions for you as you wouldn't be able to answer them.

There WERE cases of undernourished gliders, cannibalism, and gliders looking "sickly" while being fed Candy's diet. My gliders were some of them. I don't deny that, and neither does Candy! The group of breeders looked long and hard and got together and analyzed things - and the only thing in common was Candy's diet.

*I* chose to feed Candy's diet! I looked at the ingredients, I looked carefully at the ratios, I looked carefully at all of it - and I made the choice to feed Candy's Blended diet. I went directly to Candy to explain there was a problem! Candy was MORTIFIED! She apologized repeatedly to me, and asked me to help her determine what the problem was.

The problems, the symptoms, the gliders and breeders in question, and CANDY all participated in a very public discussion. I'm not sure any resolution was reached, but it was not a secret. From my own point of view - I'm sure further testing could have answered some questions, but I didn't have the money for further testing!

It is also A FACT that there have been MORE (many more) deaths and illnesses associated with feeding one of the false-HPW diets. There have been zero discussions regarding those gliders. There have been zero discussions with the creator of that diet publicly apologizing and trying to find a solution. The people who had those problems were threatened with a lawsuit, and so they never went public.

You - YOU! - the glider owner - have a choice of many diet plans to feed your gliders. You have to weigh the pros and cons, and make the best choice you are able. It is not the diet creator's responsibility. Candy offered only a recipe. She didn't package it up and market it commercially.

IF the diet is being commercially marketed, the diet creator would have some liability. Personally, if I were feeding a diet that is being commercially marketed, and that is causing illness and death, I'd demand some answers and some facts!

LOL Alden,
You beat me to it...I also fed Candy's diet and yet I didn't have any signs of problems with my gliders and yet Candy knew I fed her diet so SHE CONTACTED ME and asked that I not feed or give out her diet as some gliders had shown up with problems that COULD BE dieted related until she could research the problems. So as a breeder who both FED and was contacted BY Candy because of it I also want to know why this was all brought up again expectantly by someone who has clarified that she never feed the diet???

I mean YES it is our job to inform people of diets and such and such reactions/possible problems ect that are found but NO WHERE does GC state or even want people attacking another member which is how this thread has read to me as the original questions have been answered and answered by Candy as clearing as she can.

I think this thread has run its course. How many times will the same questions be asked, and answered? I think that if Candy did not have all of the information that she requested then its very difficult to assign a cause and/or blame any one thing.

I like many other new glider parents looked at all the staple diets and chose one that I felt would work for me and my gliders. We all want whats best for them, but to me this has degenerated from a question to out right antaganism. I know we are passionate about our babies, but enough is enough and I am a bit surprised that it has been allowed to go on.

I don't think this thread has run its course. I'm sorry but I have not been online much the last few days due to family issues coming up.

Candy has NOT given any of us appropriate answers to serious questions. She just uses smoke shields to hide behind.

She is NOT a vet, nor an animal nutritionist. PLUS...she is not willing to spend the money in include testing to her vet OR an animal nutritionist to prove that her diet is safe.

So all in all she just changed the name of the diet, and up'd the quantity making it a larger batch and omitted the cereal. Thats basically all that changed? I'm sorry but I don't think that band aid is big enough to cover the wounds that this diet would inflict on some gliders.

And since there will never be any testing done by Candy on HER diet, then I see no reason why anyone on God's green earth should feed it.

But.....like we all state to everyone.....we each have to make our own choices in what we feel is right for our gliders.

I personally would love nothing more than to have the creator of this diet to actually do some testing. In this particular case I would LOVE to be proven wrong and for this diet to actually be safe.

Alden, no one has said the issues were a secret. That has never been the case here. The issue is there was no public acknowledgement of officially pulling the diet down, making changes, changing the name and then re-posting it publicly.

People are still feeding the original unmodified BLENDED diet and are having issues. They didn't know there were issues because Candy never chose to acknowledge them after the threads died. She didn't announce and explain changes.

I do have a question for you though Alden. Based on your first sentence and your last in your post, because you chose to feed a non commercial sold diet you felt there was no need for you or anyone else to demand some answers and some facts?

As for the rest of your post, I'll say this and only this as you went off topic. If someone is feeding a "FAKE" diet, they really should do some research being a "FAKE" diet is bound to cause issues and loss of life. I've personally never seen any "FAKE" diets outside of feeding nondiet food.

100% with Nancy.

Since it appears the main concern of the original post by finnessa was that people new to sugar gliders may be misinformed when deciding on a new diet, and seeing as to how I am a new suggie mom, I wanted to put in my two cents from a newbie point of view.

Personally, I'm not familiar with any of the issue that arose as a result of Candy's diets. When I started doing research I did come across her diets, and I did read through all of the information presented on her website. I did feel uncomfortable about not being able to find more information and/or experiences people have had with these diets (on forums or otherwise), so I moved on to research something else.

I pride myself in conducting research to the fullest extent possible prior to making any decision, including buying a vacuum cleaner. When I do this, I like to see all the positives AND negatives of an item, so that I can make an informed decision, and it is MY decision to make. I am accountable for that decision and any consequences that arise from that decision because it is my responsibility to do proper research.

That being said, I believe that was the original intent of this post; to bring to light the negatives (or possible negatives) associated with this diet that had risen in the past and got buried from my understanding. Again, I'm new to all this, and yes I continue doing research on everything sugar glider for this same reason. Sometimes things that are important regarding how something affects them have gotten buried, and unless someone brings it to light again (or it's on a sticky) then I would have never found out. In my opinion, having the negative experiences people have had with this diet (and others for that matter) is just as good as having all the good ones because it allows me to weigh everything and make an informed decision.

Like I said, as a newbie, I didn't feel there was enough information on this diet, which is why I'm grateful it was brought up again because otherwise I would've been non-the-wiser. I don't feel that the questions have been addressed properly by Candy, but others were the ones to bring up the specific issues they were aware of, or experienced themselves. I'm less concerned with how the diet and issues were beaten to the ground in the past and how it may have turned into a personal attack, and I'm more concerned with the questions I have now that ironically have risen from this post. I'm not trying to attack anyone, I have no agenda, and I would like straight answers instead of defensive responses about this or any other diets. I have read through the entire post AND all of the links provided (which I don't think was helpful, since I had to sift through many comments to find an answer). In regards to Candy's diet:

1) "Blood testing for calcium and phosphorus levels is NOT a valid measure of the calcium adequacy in the diet. Bile Acid Testing is not a valid test for the nutritional content of the food eaten, it is specific for testing liver function. I will not risk putting my gliders under anesthesia for testing that is not useful."
- I would think this is something to be determined by someone with the proper credentials. I understand you are a nurse and have some knowledge of nutrition Candy, but a sugar glider-experienced veterinarian, an animal nutritionist, or scientific research would be more reliable sources for this information. I have found several scholarly papers regarding scientific research that has been conducted on sugar gliders and their dietary needs. Since you are not willing to subject your gliders to testing (which is your prerogative), have you used any scientific study (peer reviewed journals) results to help in the formulation of your diets?

2) "Are there specific things your vet looks at/for when seeing your gliders and overlooking the diet plan? Or is it just well check weights and fecals?"
- This question was not addressed, and I feel it's important. How actively involved is your veterinarian in the formulation of your diets?

3) "I asked them for input on the fruits and vegetables they routinely fed, so I could see they types and variety that had been offered along side the staple."
- Is this a diet that has vegetable and fruit limitations, such as are there any that should not be fed?

4) " I removed the baby cereal from the recipe and added additional Wombaroo High Protein Supplement in its place. This modification allowed a slight reduction of the calcium supplement while still keeping the ratio of the staple after preparation close to a 2:1 calcium to phosphorus ratio."
- Is the increase of Wombaroo High Protein Supplement a safe increase?

5) "Protein, Carbohydrates, Fat, Fiber, Iron, Vitamins and Minerals are nutrients found in foods. They are not nutritionally specific to animals or humans."
- Animal physiology and metabolism is not the same in all species of mammals. Is your diet based on the thought that if it meets the nutritional needs of a human, it meets the nutritional need of the marsupial?

6) Have the necropsies that showed malnutrition been compared to the length of time the diet was fed?

7) "Instead, they switched their gliders to HPW and within a very short time - some less than a week - the issues all resolved."
- This could actually be a sign of causality. I'm not usually a fan of causality (A always leads to B), but if the only factor changed when issues presented was the diet, and there was a response to that single change, then it could indicate that the problem was addressed (in this case the diet). Do you not agree?

Coqui - You have chosen objective questions to ask. I hope this will summarize and clarify my thoughts for you.

1 - the particular tests that some are demanding be done on my gliders are NOT appropriate tests for the determination of the nutritional value of a gliders diet.

Blood calcium and phosphorus levels are controlled by a litany of metabolic processes in the body including parathyroid hormones, the absorption rate by the gut, the ability of the kidneys to excrete or retain calcium as needed and a constant movement of calcium and phosphorus in and out of bones to maintain a state of homeostasis that keeps the blood calcium and phosphorus at a relatively constant 2:1 ratio in the blood. Normal Blood Calcium & Phosphorus are not related to the amounts contained in the diet.

The testing of bile acids in the blood are specific for diagnosis of liver pathology. It measures the reabsorbtion of bile excreted by the gallbladder in response to the ingestion of food. The bile is absorbed by the gut into the blood and then is collected by the liver from the blood and again stored by the gallbladder. The results are dependent on the length of time since the last food consumption. Normal bile acid levels indicate that the liver is functioning properly - It does not measure anything specific to the quality of foods ingested.

The first time this test was suggested for a glider in 2009 was for evaluation of a liver tumor seen on x-ray. It was recommended as a LESS INVASIVE test than a surgical biopsy of the liver. It was not initially suggested as a measurement of the quality of the gliders diet.



Bone density changes occur gradually over time and can be diagnosed by x-rays. X-rays of gliders are generally done of the entire body because of their size. In the absence of any symptoms, x-rays are not usually advised and always carry the potential for cellular damage. Routine x-rays of a glider, especially repeated ones have the potential to do more harm than good.

If I had these tests done on my gliders, and got "perfect results" I would only have gained the bragging rights that MY GLIDERS are healthy. The results are not definitive of a good or a bad diet. Chances are gliders fed pellets and apples would also have normal values on these particular tests. Would that be evidence that they are on a good diet?

2 - My gliders have routine check ups. I discussed my recipes with my vet and showed her the comparisons of the nutritional content of my recipes to the content of other widely used glider diets at the time. She agreed that the nutrient values in my staple recipes which fell mid-range between the high and low values, established by calculation of the values found in other diets, would meet my glider's needs. She said there was not a lot of specific information in her manuals on glider diet requirements.
I have reviewed a number of articles on glider nutrition. None of them gave a definitive list of specfic daily recommendations for amounts of nutrient gliders require daily. If you have found such a list I would be happy to review it and compare the nutrients provided by my staple recipes.

3- My staple recipes contain a moderate amount of calcium supplement - less half the amount of calcium called for in the BML recipe. The staples have close to a 2:1 ratio so there are no restrictions or specific requirements for the fruits and vegetables fed with the staple. I do encourage a wide variety of at least 7 different fruits and 7 different vegetables be fed over a week's time. I asked for information on the fruits and vegetables routinely used because at the time there were a lot of folks using various 'relish combinations' designed to have a 2:1 ratio for fruits and vegetables. Some of these fruit and vegetable recipes rely heavily on papaya and bok choi to the point that these two foods are over 50% of the total fruits and vegetables in the glider's overall feeding. It is not nutritionally sound to feed substantially more of one or two foods and only tiny amounts of others. It would have been useful at the time to know if the gliders feedings did indeed contain a wide variety or if they were being fed large amounts of one or two foods or if their vegetable 'variety' was actually mixed vegetables every night.

4- Yes the increase in the Wombaroo High Protein Supplement was a safe increase. It does not exceed the amount used in the Original HPW recipe.



No - it is based on the amounts of nutrients found in other widely used sugar glider staples and contains only ingredients commonly used in other to meet the needs of sugar gliders. I did not include any new products that had not already been used long term in existing glider staples.

The amounts of Protein, Carbohydrates, Fat, Fiber, Iron, in my staple recipes were based on the amounts contained in several widely used glider diets at the time. There is no list of recommended daily amounts. I needed to learn what the amounts were in diets already being used successfully. I researched the amounts of these nutrients in the ingredients used in existing glider staple recipes in order to determine the amounts that were already being widely fed to gliders. I established a range (high and low values) to see amounts currently being fed to gliders safely. I then chose ingredients already widely used in glider staple recipes to use in my own recipes with the goal of creating a staple that contained nutrients in amounts BETWEEN the highest amounts and lowest amounts provided by other staples.

None of the ingredients I included in my recipes were new to the feeding of gliders. I chose foods that were readily available and ones had already demonstrated their safety in glider staples. I chose a smaller per glider portion 2 tsp to provide the needed nutrients because I felt this would encourage greater consumption of the fruits and vegetables offered. (The mixture contains slightly less water than other staples so it is thicker but contains a similar amount of the solids that a 1 TBS portion of other staples contain)



This question would require answers from anyone that has lost a glider who was fed my staple. It would be interesting also to know the prior feeding history for these gliders prior to being fed my staple.



Yes, If the staple contained untested ingredients that gliders had not previously been commonly fed long term, or if the staple contained nutrients that were in amounts greatly outside of the acceptable range (based on the nutritional content of other staples in previous long term use) then I would have seen a possible association.

I believe there were other factors in the reporting of the initial concerns that had nothing to do with the use of my staple recipes. I had questions about the similarities of what the individuals were reporting and the time line of events.

My feeding plan had become popular very quickly and there were many posts from folks who found their gliders were no longer picky about eating fruits and vegetables along with the staple as had been a frequent complaint with other staples.

Many people were happy to be able to feed a wide variety of fruits and vegetables rather than struggling to feed a combination of fruits and vegetables that had the 2:1 ratio, that was extensively discussed at the time, to compliment the Original HPW diet or trying to get their gliders to eat mixed vegetables every day with BML.

The use of my staple had grown steadily between its introduction in the fall of 2009 and the Feb 2011. Many people had been feeding my staple for over a year when the concerns thread began.

Until the initial 'concerns thread' was started no one had contacted me with any specific problems or health issues that they associated with my staple.

The only individuals reporting problems were breeders and instead of approaching me individually the had all spoken to another individual to discuss their concerns. This individual had not used my staple. I wondered why she was the one they brought their issues to for discussion. It was the 3rd party that initiated the original discussion, similar to Finessa opening this thread with out any personal experience with my staple.

None of these breeders took their gliders to a vet. Even ones that had previously been feeding their gliders BML - switched not back to BML but to HPW.

Some of these breeders had previously posted how pleased they were with how their gliders were eating since starting on my staple. Others had used it for only a few months before reporting their concerns - to their friend, not to me.

The time line of events appears unusual to me. The number of positive reports over a years time, sudden issues after feeding for a short period of time, the rapid recovery on HPW and the way the issues were presented by a third party on THREE Glider forums simultaneously, made me feel the REAL ISSUE was not my glider staple recipe but an effort eliminate my staple as one of the choices glider owners have available to them.

I had a necropsy that showed malnutrition as the cause of death. Zoey was OOP 6-29-10. She was weaned onto the Blended diet. Isn't that interesting? BTW, this has been posted repeatedly, by me.

Candy, I appreciate the answers. I agree with the testing of bile acids not being a necessary test for determining nutritional values being met. I also agree with the bone density test not necessarily being a part of this. However, I believe the moment for testing has passed. In other words, the tests (which I do not claim to know exactly which would've been necessary) would've been more effective had they been conducted prior to the diet change and then again after the new diet was introduced, so as to be able to determine any significant changes. When you say, "Blood calcium and phosphorus levels are controlled by a litany of metabolic processes in the body including parathyroid hormones, the absorption rate by the gut, the ability of the kidneys to excrete or retain calcium as needed and a constant movement of calcium and phosphorus in and out of bones to maintain a state of homeostasis that keeps the blood calcium and phosphorus at a relatively constant 2:1 ratio in the blood," I agree to a certain extent. These functions in sugar gliders are not the same as for other mammals, which is why I don't feel confident relying on that statement, unless it came from someone with the proper credentials (I'm not intending any offense, and I'm not saying you are not creditable, but lacking what I would consider to be adequate credentials for the subject matter). Having these functions studied at a molecular level, would certainly help in determining that.

Which brings me to the peer reviewed journals and scientific research conducted on sugar gliders and their dietary needs. As a Biology major, I have access to some of these, but not all are free. You can find some in JSTOR and others in CSIRO, but you have to pay to access them. However, I feel that if there has been scientific research that has been peer reviewed in regards to the dietary needs of sugar gliders, then they should be used as resources when formulating a sugar glider diet; more so when testing cannot be conducted.

From your answers I understand that your diet remained within the parameters of feeding quantities as diets that have been around, such as the BML. If I understand correctly, you're stating that because you are using the same ingredients in different, but acceptable quantities, then there should be no problems? I ask because I'm actually very particular about the minute details. Very, very small changes can have drastic results. For example, I'm deathly allergic to dark chocolate (my throat will completely close off), but I have no reaction to milk chocolate whatsoever.

And yes, the question about the necropsies was aimed mainly to those that experienced that.

So Nancy, Zoey was never fed any other diet since OOP. When did she pass away, if you don't mind me asking? I'm really sorry for your loss.

You have asked some very good questions, Coqui, which can be very helpful to get some of the answers we are seeking. Actually, just tonight I was looking at the timeline during that period when I fed the Blended diet. I may have had a serious "Aha" moment which I am going to organize and put down on paper. There may be more to this story, in my personal case, due to that period of time when my nursing moms were being fed the Blended diet and my joeys were weaned onto Blended.

Zoey died in June 2011... she was just under 1 year OOP.

I'm so sorry Nancy. She was absolutely gorgeous! Please do let me know your thoughts once you organize them. It would be helpful.

Also, and I say this only because my husband just asked me today (in case someone wondered why I ask so many questions when I feed mine HPW Plus), "Why do you care about that diet if you've already picked one they like?" I continue to research diets, not only because time can reveal improvements and detriments, but also because (as I told him), you never know when you may need a diet change for whatever reason, so it's good to know your options.

I really appreciate you sharing your story Nancy. And Candy, again thank you for your responses.

Finnessa, I contacted Candy about feeding her original diet and she urged me not to at that time. Is that not public enough? She can't go on the news saying her diet needs work. I believe you have already accomplished what you wanted. Everyone knows. It has been said time and again on glider gossip. And we are all free to use which ever diet we want. Now, that being said. You can't rightfully blame Candy for glider deaths than I can blame McDonalds for being chubby. She told me early last year she was reworking her diet. Question Finnessa, why is it only Candys diet you are on? No other diets have ever caused problems or questionable ingredients?

Agreed, but that is not something I can do.



I know of two articles by Ellen Dierenfeld PhD that studied sugar glider diets - neither was a study that offered any detailed conclusions as to what gliders should be fed. The conclusions of both papers was that more study was necessary.

The first article (Journal of Exotic Pet Medicine, Vol 15, No 3 ( July), 2006: pp 218-224) did note the calcium and iron were high in the 3 diets studied. The study was done with only 9 young male gliders. This was one reason I chose use less calcium supplement that the diets used in the study. It also influenced my recipe change to reduce the iron in my staple. I had not initially included the amounts of iron in the foods used in my staple. I did further research and gathered the necessary data to calculate the iron content and then modified my recipes.

I need to locate my copy of the second article, but it also did not give definition to the specific dietary needs of gliders.

Nancy, here is part of your timeline.

Nancy posted on 2/12/11





Did you continue to feed Zoey the Blended diet between this post in February and her death in June?

I also noticed in reviewing your post that you stated that you used Calcium Citrate in place of the Now Brand Calcium Carbonate the recipe called for.

Did you adjust the dosage of the Calcium Citrate to 2 teaspoons in order to get the correct amount of calcium called for in the recipe? (the recipe called for 3/4 teaspoon of the Calcium Carbonate = 900 mg)

mysweetgliders, Private contact is not public. Also, every diet has had it's day of questioning. This diet is no exception. I think I'd rather owners be safe now rather than sorry later.

I not once said Candy was TO BLAME for anyone or thing dying. Awareness is key and people being aware of previous, potentially future problems is the right thing to do. I am just as entitled to ask questions as you/anyone is. Don't like it? Don't read it.

So you were actually given this information. Were you able to draw any conclusions from this?

Finnessa - I did post a public statement on all of the forums when I removed the recipes from my web page.

Is that not Public enough?

I also contacted a number of folks individually that I knew were using the feeding plan and asked them to choose an alternate diet while I gathered more information. Many said they were pleased with the feeding plan and would be continuing to use it.

Opening this thread, in light of NO ONE currently stating they have any issues with my feeding plan, is exactly why I did not make a huge FANFARE post when I put my feeding plan back on my personal web page a year ago.

It appears that someone wanted my feeding plan to be more widely known though - it is now on the top of the Glider Central diet list - I did not add it to the list.

Candy, That's great! Thank you for the citation. I need to get access to it, though. One of the ones I found on JSTOR was a lot older (80's), but it did cover a great deal regarding gliders on a honey-pollen diet. I gotta find the article again.

So, the article by Dr. Dierenfeld did have a significant influence on the making of you diet?

(Wow, I missed quite a bit while I was gone)

I see you were able to find the information that was never provided. Your recipe called for either calcium carbonate OR calcium citrate. I purchased the Now brand calcium citrate and used the 2 tsp the diet called for.

I was given partial information, and not from all of those that stated problems.

I was not able to draw conclusions based in incomplete information.

In this situation, I would not have jumped to the conclusion that the loss of OOP joeys when the parents had been fed my staple for less than two months, after having been fed BML for a significantly longer period of time, was SOLELY due my staple. In fact, the problems may have begun when the gliders were NOT eating the BML well - affecting the mother's health during the time immediately prior to the pregnancy and the joeys early weeks in pouch.

There are too many variables in this situation to come to a definitive conclusion.

More questions:

Nancy, some of your gliders were thriving, while others weren't. I'm assuming they were all under the same conditions (diet, environment, etc.). In regards to the breeding pairs it seems concerning. Here are my questions:

1) Was the diet adjusted for the mamas? I ask because I've read some people recommend adding more of certain things on particular diets, so I don't know how that would affect this diet.

2) From the 18 adults that are mentioned, how were they housed? More specifically, what was the distribution of those that gained weight vs those that lost it? I ask because I wonder if the ones that gained weight could have eaten the shares allotted to those that lost the weight; therefore, the weight gain being caused by overeating, and the weight loss due to not enough food available because the other glider(s) ate it.

I took the article into consideration when I was working on my recipes but I would not say it had a significant influence because there were no definitive conclusions. It indicated that diets used in the study were felt to have too much calcium supplement, but there was no determination on how much would be an appropriate amount.

The groups of gliders were small - 3 gliders on each diet. One glider was removed from the study due to self mutilation. The weight change was reported for the group not just individuals - One group had 2 gliders loose weight and the third gained more than the other two had lost so the group as a whole still had an average weight gain.

I see. Aside from the lack of definitive conclusions, were there other findings in addition to too much calcium on those 3 diets?

Coqui - I sent you a PM about the articles since they are not directly related to this topic.

Thanks!

Candy you stated you took down the recipe to stop the attacks against you, not because there were issues with the diet. I do not see anything outside of the thread(s) of bickering that show it was removed. If it's on GG I wouldn't know. I am not a regular poster/reader there, only LGG and occasionally here. I do not see it in the thread on LGG though.

This is going to stop right now. The point of this thread was to discuss diet concerns. As of this posting, I have only seen THREE people (besides the diet creator) involved in this thread who have actually fed this diet for any amount of time at all.

Discussing whether/why/how/whatever the diet was pulled from a website has no bearing on safety concerns.

In case anyone is wondering this IS a warning.
Read here if you need a refresher;
http://www.glidercentral.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/31580/Diet_Bashing#Post31580

We have tried to give you all some latitude, but this is ridiculous.

I would really like to see some current information on this diet, especially for breeding gliders and joeys. Are there "before" and "after" pics? Is there any data about OOP weights and joey growth rates? Where are all of those folks who were having no issues two years ago? Are they still feeding the diet, as modified? Have they noticed any changes?

Coqui, again you are asking good questions. I'll try to get some answers together for you in a PM to help this thread focus on what is happening NOW and not two or three years ago.

Candy, I wanted to make sure you saw where I answered your question about the type of calcium called for in your diet and the amount I used. I prepared and fed the diet exactly as written.

In my opinion and observations - Candy published, and has resumed publishing a recipe. She does not require that you purchase a packaged meal with the purchase of a joey. She doesn't market a packaged meal plan in any form. She merely suggests a recipe which has worked for her and her gliders.

If you buy a cookbook, and a recipe makes you sick, the person who wrote the recipe is under no obligation to you of any kind. Especially if there are many others who use that recipe with no known problems.

There are other issues that have been found with other diets. None of those publish "disclaimers" on their web sites. When there are problems with other diets which are as significant as the ones with this diet, are there disclaimers? And by "significant" - I mean, of course, circumstantial and anecdotal.

Candy has ONE necropsy to work with here. One is not exactly a "study group" nor is it enough to draw broader conclusions. Although I'm sorry for Nancy's loss, the death of one glider from malnutrition could have been for any number of reasons, and is not a "smoking gun" leading to problems with Candy's diet.





Do the creators of other diets have these credentials? Do the creators of other diets spend their money for testing, and publish the results of those tests? Where are those results published?

The idea that this needs to be rehashed for "new members" is pretty ridiculous. There have been no new reports of problems with the diet. There have been countless threads of significance in the last two years. Are we going to now call up all those threads "for new members" to see what changes have been made in glider knowledge and care over the last two years?

I believe this is the main reason why many long-time glider owners encourage new owners to work with a mentor. So that the history and process of glider care information can be shared, since a great deal of it is lost to time. This discussion is one that, in my opinion, should have been "lost to time" as there are no new issues to warrant it being re-hashed.

Just to clarify, the quoted questions from Feather and Sherri about my 'credentials' and qualifications for making an informed decision on having lab work done on my gliders and my experience and skills used evaluate the combination of foods used in my recipes were answered on the first page of this thread. My reply is copied here for those that have not read the entire thread.



Nancy - Thank you, I did see your response to the calcium citrate question confirming that you were using the correct amount. You did not however clarify if you continued to feed Zoey the Blended diet between Feb 2011 when the concerns were initially discussed and her death in June 2011 or if you changed her to another feeding plan. If a change was made, which feeding plan did you change to?



Nancy, many of the folks that have continued to use the GliderKids Feeding plan went 'underground' because posting it as their chosen staple in the forums brought out the critics. I also hope anyone currently using the GliderKids Feeding Plan will share their observations and experiences here and that if they do, they will not be bombarded with questions.

I actually am using The GliderKids feeding plan, my babies are growing, gaining weight and now are developing gloobies!

The are active, alert and have beautiful fur, soft silky silvery grey fur and eat everything. I researched all the diets and printed them all out and consulted my vet prior to taking my babies home from the breeder about the diet. He and I both agreed that the GliderKids feeding plan was a good choice. He is one of 2 Exotic emergency vets in the state of NH so I think he is qualified to help me with this decision.

Well said Alden. And Finnessa, the subject would drop if you would let it. You keep bringing it up and beating the proverbial dead horse. I am a member on gg and when people come around asking about diets, we refer them to the diet/nutrition section or gliderpedia. There they make their own decision if they want to feed it. And don't even say you do not go there because I have seen you there doing your best to try to create problems if someone has a question about Peggy's diets. Not by yourself of course but you were there too. If you haven't said Candy's diet has caused glider deaths and I'm pretty sure you have at one point, you have certainly inferred it. Nuff said.

Candy,
Thank you for the links to your reformed diet my family will be looking into those and deciding which one we want to feed as we never had any problems when feeding it earlier and to me it makes the most sense as a complete diet to feed my babies.

Candy I am not discrediting your education in HUMAN NUTRITION.

But humans and animals metabolize things differently. That is why some medications that are safe for animals aren't safe for humans, the same for some foods.

I have taken this quote from a post on LGG about what is needed for a degree in animal nutrition:



I would never ask an animal nutritionist for help with my or my families diet, nor would I ask the nutritionist at the local clinic for help with my horses, parrots or sugar glider's diets.

Last fall the nutritionist that works for Newsham Choice Genetics, a leader in Swine Geneitics, for whom my employer manages boars for. He was there to discuss our feed and how to improve it for the boars at the stud as they are growing young boars that are also expected to produce semen for shipment on a regular basis.

I mentioned the sugar gliders to him and if he had gone over anything with sugar gliders while he was in school.

Without going into great detail he simply said "they have unique dietary needs that someone who specializes in exotic nutrition would be best in answering dietary questions about their specialized diets."

That right there is why you need to be consulting with an animal nutritionist or a veterinarian with a back ground in animal nutrition over your diet!

Feather - if you are going to copy posts that are not your own from another forum, please identify the original poster of the information.

That information is not relevant to the topic of THIS discussion.

Feather - you are really beating this to the ground. It isn't relevant or pertinent, and, honestly, it is starting to make you look ridiculous.

You are not a ridiculous person, Kim, so .... please stop!

How is it not relevant? You were asked about the whether or not the diet was based on human or animal nutritional needs. You were offered contact information of an animal nutritionist which you declined. I can also supply you with plenty of links to help you becomes a licensed ANIMAL nutritionist if you'd like. It may help explain the difference between what you are trying to do with your diet and what may or may NOT actually be taking place in some of these gliders.

It is relevant! If Candy was an animal nutritionist giving advice to people on how to eat it would be malpractice!

To me her using her education as an RN and extended RN education in nutrition and telling people how to feed their gliders, tweaking other diets (also on her web site with new names)is malpractice. The only problems is the law doesn't recognize it as malpractice because they are only animals.

PS to those of you that feel I have an agenda against Candy and her diets, I would like to remind you that I fed her diets and my gliders looked like crap and lost weight even though they were getting double the food they should have been getting. I even lost one before we found what the problem was.

My team of veterinarians said to throw that diet as far as I could pitch it. I feed chicken and scrambled eggs for a week until I could get the new ingredients for a better diet.

After two months we went back for a recheck and my veterinarians were very happy with the change. They always comment on how great their fur is now and how much energy they have (while they are chasing one around the exam room).