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RE: Albino and WF Blonde #137217
08/25/06 01:18 AM
08/25/06 01:18 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline OP
Serious Glideritis
Judie  Offline OP
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
What does one get when they breed an Albino with a WF Blonde?

Albino? or WF Blonde or Classic Gray?

And if the offspring of an Albino is a Classic Gray/White Face Blonde colored... does this offspring carry the Albino gene?

Would it be called a WF Blonde/100% Albino Het or if Classic Gray a 100% Albino Het?

Or is it just considered a WF Blonde or Classic Gray and Not a 100% Albino Het?

Last edited by Judie; 08/25/06 01:21 AM.
Re: RE: Albino and WF Blonde [Re: ] #137218
08/25/06 03:28 AM
08/25/06 03:28 AM

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I believe the albino gene works exactly like the Leucistic gene and that babies from that pairing would be 100% hets.

Since an albino cannot carry any other color gene it can only pass the albino gene to it's offspring.

Re: RE: Albino and WF Blonde [Re: ] #137219
08/25/06 04:40 AM
08/25/06 04:40 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline OP
Serious Glideritis
Judie  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Well now... lets proceed. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/roflmao.gif" alt="" />

TOandFro says... that if you breed wf blonde with a 100% Albino Het for a couple of generations... the wf blonde gene may become so strong that it will dominate over the recessive gene. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Now I do not see how that is possible since the Albino gene is recessive and not co-dominate. The wf blonde gene may eleminate most of the dominate gray color gene and that is about as far as I can see it going.

After all, I have a Leucistic who is a double het. She has two generations of wf blonde/leucistic hets in her and so far... the Leucistic gene has not been wiped out. She herself has produced a wf blonde/leucistic het and now two more Leucistics/Possible WF Blonde... bringing the total of Three Generations of WF Blonde/Leucistic and we are still seeing white.

Anyone have any idea as to what TOandFro is talking about... cause I am lost here. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nixweiss.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by Judie; 08/25/06 04:45 AM.
Re: RE: Albino and WF Blonde [Re: ] #137220
08/25/06 08:28 AM
08/25/06 08:28 AM

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Hmmm...I bred my albino male to a wf female and they produced 2 wf females. Because the albino gene works like the leucistic gene, these girls are also 100% albino hets. These girls will be bred back to 100% albino hets of normal color. I have also been told to keep the albino gene away from the wf gene so that the wf gene does not take over and dilute the albino gene. It does not seem to be doing that to the leu gene, so I do not know why it would do it to the albino gene. But because there have not been as many albino het breedings as leu het breedings, we do not really have a lot of info to go on about how often the gene magnifies itself. For example, a leu x leu het crossing averages 1/2 leu babies. A leu het x leu het crossing averages 1/4 leu babies. We do not not if the albino gene would actually work the same statistics, because there are so few pairings and so few breedings. If it does not work out to be the same average, I guess it would be possible the the albino gene is not as strong, thus risking the possibility of the wf gene taking over if too many generations are bred together.

Whew! Does any of what I just typed make sense? This is just speculation and theory, so only time will tell for sure.

Re: RE: Albino and WF Blonde [Re: ] #137221
08/25/06 09:27 AM
08/25/06 09:27 AM

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Makes sence to me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I want an albino one day..... yeah.... one day when i win the lottery....

Re: RE: Albino and WF Blonde [Re: ] #137222
08/25/06 12:13 PM
08/25/06 12:13 PM

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Well, from my genetics studies..
It seems as though the WF gene has reared it's head as a recessive trait (getting WF babies from two standard greys recently posted on this board) but for the sake of this thread, let's say it's co-dominant.. and albino is recessive.. so.. if you breed an albino to a WF you will never get an albino baby, but you will either get a WF albino het (100%) or a gray albino het (100%). The only way I can see it possible for the WF gene to 'take over' would be if there were no more albino genes in the mix. If you breed the offspring of the first mating between a WF and an albino back to an albino.. you still have the chance of WF or Gray 100% hets, or an albino. The only way the albino gene would become lower in frequency is if you bred them back to possible hets or just WF/Grays.. if you keep breeding back to other 100% hets or albinos, the albino gene will always be there. I don't believe on gene can 'turn off' another gene like that... it's still there, but whether or not it ever shows up again in pure form (albino) is dependent upon the mating selections.

Make sense? I think I confused myself.. these reply boxes need to be bigger so I can read what I'm typing as I go through.. :-)

Please, correct me if I'm wrong.. but this is how I interpret those two genes.

Re: RE: Albino and WF Blonde [Re: ] #137223
08/25/06 02:51 PM
08/25/06 02:51 PM

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Tanya, I think that is what Judie meant. If you breed the 100% het to a standard wf, the joeys should be 50% hets, but we are wondering if the wf gene would take over leaving less than a 50% chance of being a het.

Re: RE: Albino and WF Blonde [Re: ] #137224
08/25/06 02:54 PM
08/25/06 02:54 PM

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I completely agree! I used to work in depth with rabbit genetics and they also have a BEW and Albino strain and in rabbits it works exactly like you said. You get 2 genes from your dad and two from your mom on every trait we have. You can't get rid of a gene...it's there. Now if it's resesive it will only show up when paired with another that carries that same recessive gene. of coarse co-dominence can through a twist in things....but it still doesn't chage the fact that a recessive gene is past on to offspring. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I see what you mean about trying to get the logic from your head to paper....easier said than done.

Re: RE: Albino and WF Blonde [Re: ] #137225
08/25/06 03:15 PM
08/25/06 03:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline OP
Serious Glideritis
Judie  Offline OP
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
A 50% Possible Albino/WF Blonde offspring does not decrease the chance of of the 50% Possibility of breeding Albino. It only decreases the chance of producing the Classic Color Gray. This is because the WF Blonde gene appears to be Co-Dominant to the Dominant color of Classic Gray.

I can only add to this thread with my experience as a Leucistic breeder and not one of Albinos. However, with both colors... Leucistic and Albino both being Simple Recessive... they should work the same.

I have talked to Sheila this afternoon and she is very busy and does not have time for all the emails she is receiving over this thread. So, please just post your questions in this thread and when she gets time... she will post. Think she told me "maybe by next week".


Last edited by Judie; 08/25/06 03:36 PM.
Re: RE: Albino and WF Blonde [Re: ] #137226
08/25/06 03:38 PM
08/25/06 03:38 PM

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I think I understand.. like masking the albino gene?

Wouldn't the offspring from that pairing (mentioned above, the 50%/WF)be 25% chance albino hets? Thus, a decrease in chance of passing that trait on? Maybe I'm confused as to what you're asking.. like, would the WF gene take over vs gray? Either way, I believe they would still have the same chance of passing on the albino gene from the 50% het.. the theory of random assortment says that from the 50% het, you have a 50/50 chance they carry the albino gene, and thus 50/50 chance of passing that gene on to thier offspring.. and then the WF gene is the same The co-dominance of the WF gene (if that's what we are assuming) I *think* would give you 25% albino hets that are WF.. is that what you are asking?

I'm REALLY confused now.. :-)

Re: RE: Albino and WF Blonde [Re: ] #137227
08/25/06 04:19 PM
08/25/06 04:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
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Sheila Offline
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Ok
I went ahead and decided to get this over. I know it will only escalate.
When we first started breeding wfb's we thought it was a codominate gene. After many wfb pairings together building up to third and fourth generations, we saw the gene strengthening and less normals being born. Most people that did het to het breedings only bred first generation blondes hets together because that was all available at the time, hoping to get blondes from them. Because no one did produce them, we all assumed that the gene was not recessive, and you only needed one to produce the blonde. We also assumed that no WFB's could be produced out of any hets. After Sugar Glider Express bred a 2nd generation het pair for a year, she got two blonde babies. This was suggesting that there is a recessive gene in there, or something we don't understand. All of the other babies born from this pair that year were normal color. I have a glider that is a quad het. Het for blonde, het for platinum, het for white faced and het for Leu. Her father was a first generation WFB. Her mother was a 100% Leu het, 50% cinnamon het. She has had three white faces, two Platinums, one normal and two whites. Of the two whites, they could be platinum or white faced underneath the white, so double hets. She has two co-dominate genes (platinum and blonde), a recessive gene (Leu)and a normal gene. One or both Leu babies could have wfb or Platinum underneath the white fur. If I were to look at this, I would say, because she is 100% leu het herself, she should be having at least one in four babies be white. She had 7 babies in a year. If I were to look at it, after 7 babies, she should have two whites and approximately 2 with no Leu genes, approximately 4 that carry the the Leu gene that are not white. There is a lot of genetics in this mix of gliders. Genetics prove out over a life of a glider, not just one year. Because of what we don't know still about the wfb being a co-dominate, plus recessive tendancies - strength of genes, etc., it is risky to use them in a breeding program where there is essentially one albino line out there and few offspring. If there was a good stock of albino's out there, I would say go ahead with it, but there is still so much unknown about the wfb's that are a mystery that put oil in the water. I do have a pair of wfb's that I have bred with my albino, only because at the time it was what I had available at Victor's age. When you hand feed joeys you don't necessarily make the best business decisions. It will be fun to have one WFB as a het and he will not remain there forever, but for now, he is happy with his two girls. I never said the gene was diluted with the WFB together. What I do believe is that WFB was dominate, and had gene strength, that I wasn't sure if that was a good combination with a line that had so few. What I do understand is that a gene with a co-dominate can have strength to the gene, but what I don't understand is that it does it by putting the two recessive non colors together to get the dominate trait again. I know with my Leu's I bred gliders having 7-8 offspring before I got a white. This was with a Leu to 100% het breeding. Over the life of the female, she only had three Leu babies. That is not that many for breedings of 4.5 years of which over a year of that time was with the Leu male. Genetics don't seem to be text book. When I say something is a theory, it is based on experience, but not necessarily fact. I can only breed and find out and because the WFB is so complicated, it just makes it more difficult for theories to become facts. A breeder recently said to me that if you breed the wFB with Albino, they will be lighter in color. That was a theory based on nothing. Right now I have two 100% offspring wfb's born and one looks like a very light wfb and the other one looks normal. The mother is a 2nd generation WFB. Based on the way they look, I could not say or even speculate that the WFB will be lighter with the albino. I guess time will tell all. In the meantime, we keep trying to find these things out. I have yet to see one person who has all the right answers, particularly about the WFB's. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


ToandFro Gliders

http://www.toandfrogliders.com

USDA Licensed breeder for 12 years and counting!

WE SELL THE STEALTH WHEEL
Re: RE: Albino and WF Blonde [Re: ] #137228
08/25/06 05:46 PM
08/25/06 05:46 PM

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That was an eyeful Sheila. :-) I have to agree that there just isn't enough known about the WF gene to even speculate.. trial and error and time will tell...

Re: RE: Albino and WF Blonde [Re: ] #137229
08/25/06 07:48 PM
08/25/06 07:48 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,799
St. Johns, Florida
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Glideritis Anonymous
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Glideritis Anonymous

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Posts: 16,799
St. Johns, Florida
I have to say all this really made my head spin!! I say if you have gliders and you wish to put them in with another glider, than that is totally your choice what to do. If you ask for advice or opinions, and you dont like what you hear, nobody says you have to follow it. All I know is EVERYTIME I have seen pics of both Judie and Sheilas babies, they are nothing but gorgeous and beautiful. Lets all remember, it isnt who can get the fanciest color or the odd color, these are living critters being born, and no matter if they come out purple, they will still be loved!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love´┐Ż Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: RE: Albino and WF Blonde [Re: ] #137230
08/28/06 03:17 PM
08/28/06 03:17 PM

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You said it Peggy. :-)


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