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Expanding...what do you think will happen....? #1400515
03/26/16 10:19 AM
03/26/16 10:19 AM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 522
Pacific NW
TwoDog Offline OP
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TwoDog  Offline OP
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 522
Pacific NW
Hey all!
Getting ready to expand the clan soon.
I want to get an intact male and his mate...haven't decided where from yet. Maybe TPG?

I want to build to a colony size of 5-7 eventually. I want them to be able to have a few joeys to this end.

My question...

What is most likely to happen, when I introduce a pair of joeys to my adult pair?

I know that is terribly oversimplifying the question. But I fear the worst. Is it even possible?
I fear that, even if they did find a harmony between the young couple and the older couple, that once the young ones came of age, we would start getting conflicts and pulled or rejected...or worse...joeys.

Am I correct in this? If so, the new family would need their own cage, etc...

Thanks
Dave

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Re: Expanding...what do you think will happen....? [Re: TwoDog] #1400517
03/26/16 10:32 AM
03/26/16 10:32 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 43,162
LittleRock, AR USA
KarenE Offline
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KarenE  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 43,162
LittleRock, AR USA
Personally, I wouldn't try it with the scenario you are talking about. The variables of what could go wrong are just too great, IMO.

You will have two intact males, one older/one much younger (the same with the females in age) unrelated.

The older male will more than likely try to enforce his dominance which could end badly for the smaller male and possibly even the smaller female.

You could always have the smaller male neutered but you still have to worry about the smaller female until she has gained some size.

When establishing colonies of unrelated gliders, it is usually done with gliders of approximately the same size, and with only one intact male. Once male joeys are born, they are neutered to keep them from breeding.

I have only had colonies of families, so no introductions were necessary. However, in these units neutering the males is definitely necessary.


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Re: Expanding...what do you think will happen....? [Re: TwoDog] #1400523
03/26/16 04:57 PM
03/26/16 04:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 522
Pacific NW
TwoDog Offline OP
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TwoDog  Offline OP
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Posts: 522
Pacific NW
Karen hi!
Thanks for the input. Please correct me, if I have something wrong.

Gizmo is neutered. Since neutering females is not generally done, I would assume that if I added any intact male to the group he would try and mate with Harley.
One intact male per cage is all you can have unless you want to tempt some serious problems.

So basically it sounds like what I need to do is just start this new family unit in a new cage and let them interact with the original couple...?
Can I let them interact at all? Even during supervised play time? Anyone have any experience with that? Are they such little horn-dogs that they will jump into the backseat of the a toy car and go at it the moment I'm not looking?

Actually...If I just get the second pair then I have four in total.
I could add in another neutered male after they have a pair of joeys. At that point Dad can get snipped.

But if new mom and dad have joeys, I have to have any male children AND dad snipped before any females come of age, or risk inbreeding dad with his daughter.

Ugh...

How does this work in the wild? Their social structure is so much like lions. In the wild, I assume sub-males and sub-females are ejected or choose to leave the colony...at some point. These individuals either go off to start a colony of their own, or potentially challenge the dominant male of another colony for dominance?

My head hurts...

This may sound silly, but...I want the colony to eventually be a balanced little extended family unit...and this is the sappy part--where everyone has someone to love. Plus one couple who can still have babies.

Has anyone here every had a female neutered? Can it be done safely?

Thanks for listening everyone....

Happy Glider-ing.
Dave

Re: Expanding...what do you think will happen....? [Re: TwoDog] #1400524
03/26/16 06:25 PM
03/26/16 06:25 PM
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,425
Belleville, IL
Hutch Offline
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Hutch  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 1,425
Belleville, IL
Dave,

This is only a summarized understanding from my reading, so anyone with more experience please correct me if needed. That said:

1. Due to how small they are & how invasive the procedure is... it is generally considered high-risk to neuter a female.

2. It is usually high-risk to introduce a younger (much less intact) male to an older male. Somewhere I saw a chart someone made, and this was only beaten in "intro risks" by older-intact-male-to-younger-intact-male in risk level.

3. Like you mentioned, the hardest part of the extended family will be the females if they remain with the father. Males can be snipped, but females... refer to paragraph one.

4. The the wild the gliders form several smaller 'nesting groups' inside a colony. There are supposedly a few reasons for this, but one it thought to be genetic mixing. Also, something young gliders will break off to join another... though it didn't sound like that was all that common(?). Reading sometimes contradicts on that last part.

As far as sources, I've done so much reading since summer that it's all just kind-of piled in there. I can say I got a lot from Sun Coast, several journals citing studies in Australia, and information shared here & lurking on another forum (I don't post there)... & several dozen plus other internet pages >.< Have I mentioned I like reading & learning?

Again, if I've said something incorrect (the intel is from the internet after all), someone please correct me. I'm just trying to share some of what I learned to address your questions, Dave, since I know how hard it can be at times to find what specifically you want on the big wide web where every search brings up questionable content.


- Hutch

:plat: Arthur :wfb: Gwynevere :bb: Merlin :grey: Morgana

The epic saga begins here!
Re: Expanding...what do you think will happen....? [Re: TwoDog] #1400526
03/26/16 07:36 PM
03/26/16 07:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 522
Pacific NW
TwoDog Offline OP
Glider Lover
TwoDog  Offline OP
Glider Lover

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 522
Pacific NW
Hutch thanks...
Yeah going over what I know so far--and I hope I am wrong about this. The only way to get a 7 glider colony with anyone in it breeding is to have the intact male, the breeding female and five neutered males. :-(

Re: Expanding...what do you think will happen....? [Re: TwoDog] #1400527
03/26/16 08:36 PM
03/26/16 08:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 522
Pacific NW
TwoDog Offline OP
Glider Lover
TwoDog  Offline OP
Glider Lover

Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 522
Pacific NW
Hmm....what if I got 4 joeys, all at once, three males and a female...only one intact male...no...wait...ok.
OK....yeah...I got this now. I just can't most likely introduce Gizmo to the new kid until the new kid is bigger. Extra cage, no problem...was going to need it anyway.
One breeding pair as joeys.
When they hit sexual maturity, they will produce 2 joeys (probably).
By the time I realize the female has joeys in pouch, she will probably already be pregnant with two more.
At that point everyone gets snipped.
That makes 6...plus Gizmo and Harley...hmmm.
Adds up fast. :-)

So if everything goes PERFECTLY (ahem) I end up with a colony of 8, with all the males neutered, no inbreeding. And hopefully a 50/50 split of guys and dolls so everyone has a snuggle buddy.

Once everyone in the family group is grown a bit, I can try and intro Gizmo and Harley...but that would be down the road.

The role of Gizmo will be played by Bob Saget.

Does that sounds feasible to you guys?

Thanks
Dave


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