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Leucistic x Leucistic #235545
03/15/07 09:11 PM
03/15/07 09:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 8,366
Quincy, IL 62305
Lynsie Offline OP
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Lynsie  Offline OP
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I know it has been frowned upon to breed 2 leucistic gliders together since most were pretty closely related. But there are a few lines out there that are not related now. I was wondering if someone were to pair 2 totally unrealted leucistics together, if it would still be frowned upon?? I mean, alot of people pair a leu x 100% het, and a lot of time that 100% het has a sibbling that is a leu, so the lines are no different. I do not have 2 leus to pair, but I'm just wanting to know what everyone's outlook on this situation is at this point.

Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: Lynsie] #235556
03/15/07 09:24 PM
03/15/07 09:24 PM

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I dont know the answer to your question but how do you get the money to get all of these colored gliders?

Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: ] #235557
03/15/07 09:26 PM
03/15/07 09:26 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 8,366
Quincy, IL 62305
Lynsie Offline OP
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Lynsie  Offline OP
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How do I get the money for all my gliders? I work, I sell my toys, I sell my joeys, and every penny I get goes toward my gliders. But I don't know what that has to do with this thread.

Back on topic.

Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: Lynsie] #235685
03/15/07 11:56 PM
03/15/07 11:56 PM
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Posts: 8,366
Quincy, IL 62305
Lynsie Offline OP
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Lynsie  Offline OP
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Anyone have an opinion on this matter?

Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: Lynsie] #235694
03/16/07 12:04 AM
03/16/07 12:04 AM

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wow what I said was stupid, I really read that the wrong way

Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: ] #235696
03/16/07 12:08 AM
03/16/07 12:08 AM
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Quincy, IL 62305
Lynsie Offline OP
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The leucisitc gene is recessive meaning that there ARE hets. You get a 100% het when the parent is a leucistic, but the joey is born normal colored. The word het means that the glider carries the gene but does not express the color.

As for wfb's and other CO-dominant genes, there are no hets, only the recessive gene produces hets.

Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: Lynsie] #235701
03/16/07 12:17 AM
03/16/07 12:17 AM

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Oh ok. I knew that. I have been reading it the wrong way.
I have been reading it as the baby is 100% rather than 100% sure the baby has that gene. lol my bad...
Oh by the way just a few dictionary terms: (Im not trying to correct you in any way)
heterozygous-carries two different genes (no matter what the genes are if they are different then its technically a het)
Homozygous- carries both of the same genes

Im still amazed I read that the wrong way for so long...

But people breed homozygous creatures together all the time so to me two unrelated strands of leu would be no different.

Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: ] #235704
03/16/07 12:24 AM
03/16/07 12:24 AM

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Ok anyways, I would not frown upon it. They are two unrelated strands so I do not see how there could be negative affects on the baby??? Genetically there does not seem like there would be a problem...

Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: ] #235705
03/16/07 12:25 AM
03/16/07 12:25 AM

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well back to lynsie's question, i don't see why it would be a problem if you know the geneology, you have the gliders, and they are healthy, why not? Also i really liked your point about the hets, i agree that if its a het then it probably does have a leu sibling in which case should it not be considered the same way?, i really don't think it should. If you do end up breeding these babies make sure you post lots of pics. Ok?

Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: ] #235708
03/16/07 12:29 AM
03/16/07 12:29 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
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Quincy, IL 62305
Lynsie Offline OP
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Lynsie  Offline OP
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Right now I do not own any leucistics. And I am not sure that I will be able to afford 1, lie alone, 2 anytime soon to breed them together. I was just curious if people have changed thier outlook on the situation since there are a lot of lines that have been bred out now.

Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: Lynsie] #235765
03/16/07 02:24 AM
03/16/07 02:24 AM
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Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
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From what I have seen with the lines.... they are still related when it comes to second, third and fourth generations. By this I mean by cousins, first cousins, aunts and uncles, grandparents and great grandparents.

Besides, pairing two leucistics together.. produces nothing but leucistics which for now would not contribute anything to the Leucestic genetic gene pool. Breeding the BEW to nomals and lesser hets will help deversify the problem.

I think for now we breeders have been doing a great job with expanding the BEW's. But once it becomes acceptable to breed two BEW's together... most will jump on the bandwagon at the expense of the glider's health.

We know that two Leucistics will produce nothing but Leucistics... so what is the Point of producing all Leucistic even if it were possible?

Anyway... for now my personal feeling on breeding two Leus together is a No. The lines are still two close and not bred out far enough.

Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: Judie] #235773
03/16/07 03:03 AM
03/16/07 03:03 AM
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IL (St. Louis area)
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I tend to agree with Judie. We really need to give this more time. With the progress breeders are making with spreading out those leu genes, it just seems silly to stop it now, you know? I think that breeding a leu with a het (or a gray) is just fine for now.

I guess I wouldn't really frown on it necessarily, but I wouldn't choose to go that route if I were making the decision. However, at this point I only dream of owning a leucistic. grin



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:grey: :grey: :grey: :leu:

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Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: StitchsMom] #235902
03/16/07 12:16 PM
03/16/07 12:16 PM

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I know of someone who is breeding two leu together.

But I do agree with Judie. what is the point? The only point i see is to make more money since hets sell for less.


Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: ] #236576
03/17/07 01:04 PM
03/17/07 01:04 PM

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Well, I was going to stay out of this, because I have no intentions on pairing 2 leucistics together, but I have to add my 2 cents. People are pairing 2nd and third generations together that carry the leu gene. Whether it be 2 hets, a leu and a het, or 2 leus, what does it really matter? The gliders have the same exact genetics no matter what color they are.

I love the way that money is always brought into the conversation as soon as breeding any colored glider is mentioned. Everyone is so quick to judge that it is about money. I know more people trying to make money by breeding grays than colors. Most breeders that work with colors are more concerned with heath and genetics than money. I do know of a woman who plans to breed 2 leucistics. They are further related than most leu het pairs that people have. Yes, she does want to produce only white babies. What is the problem with that? She has a very limited amount of space, so has carefully selected a few gliders that she would like to breed. She spends a lot of money, time and love on the few gliders that she does have. She does not want to add to the population of leu hets. I understand where she is coming from.

People that are so worried about the market being flooded with leucistics should be more worried about people pairing hets together than leus. When I bought my leu het males just a few months ago, I paid $1500 each for them. Now, I cannot even sell them for 1/2 of that. Also, because you do not need a license anymore to produce gliders, never mins leus, anyone can breed them. Because the price is coming down so fast, hets will become more readily affordable and available. Hets will be producing large numbers of leucistics within this year alone. Producing only white joeys will decrease the number of hets on the market. Having only one pair of leucistics will produce a lot fewer white joeys than multiple pairs of leu hets.

So far, I have not heard one arguement against breeding two leucistics that I agree with. Most of them do not even makes sense. The reasons that most feel it should not be done are the exact reasons that I feel it should. Maybe if someone comes up with a legitimate reason, I will change my mind, but for now, that is where I stand on the issue.

Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: ] #236601
03/17/07 01:52 PM
03/17/07 01:52 PM

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I've been looking at Leu hets for a long time and you are right that MANY people are doing a LOT of inbreeding that really should not be done.

Finding two relatively unrelated Leus can be done but once you put them together you are just ruining all the work that the ethical breeders have done to pull the inbreeding out of the lines.

Do you think they are all doing it so that this *person that you know* can have Leu on Leu babies that are AGAIN related to EVERY OTHER LEU???? What's the point? Why destroy all that work? GREED!

You will not convince me otherwise.

Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: ] #236615
03/17/07 02:28 PM
03/17/07 02:28 PM

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The "ethical" breeders had to do a lot of inbreeding in the beginning to keep the line alive. They refer to it as "line breeding". If you look at the lineage of most leus and leu hets, you will see pairings of brother/sister, father/daughter, etc. Was this done for greed? No, it was necessary to keep the line going. Everyone shudders at "inbreeding" but it is a fact of life in the animal world. If it had not been done, we would not have any white babies now. The lines have been breed out enough that inbreeding is no longer necessary.

A woman that bought a leu from me will be pairing him with another leu who is a third cousin. We are encouraging people to breed out further and further. Second and third cousins are considered acceptable for breeding. How will their joeys be any genetically different than joeys from a breeding of a leu and a het with the same lineage. The only difference is that all the joeys will be white and not just 1/2 of them.

Everyone would applaude her for breeding 3rd cousins if one was white and one was a het. Either way, their joeys have the same exact lineage. Your arguement does not hold water.

Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: ] #236623
03/17/07 02:43 PM
03/17/07 02:43 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
queenduck Offline
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Stacie, I have to say, I agree with you. Now I don't even had one Leu, lol, but I will someday. I have no plans of breeding leu to leu, but, I can't see what is wrong with it if they are far enough apart. No difference than 3rd cousins that are het to het, or leu to het. And what to breed the offspring with? Not all people breed their leus to get more leus, many breed to grey, or wf to get 100% hets.

I have one leu het pair right now, and I can see how the price has come way down since I bought my first, less than a year ago. Heck, I could almost get 2 pairs right now for the price I paid for the first.

I see valid points on both sides, but to say that it would be horrible or wrong to breed leu to leu, I just don't see it.

Just my 2 cents.


Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon
Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: queenduck] #236630
03/17/07 02:56 PM
03/17/07 02:56 PM

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Stacie - Oh how silly of me... I didn't realize how personally involved you are with the subject. Nothing I say will "hold water" when you are trying to convince yourself you did not make a mistake, now will it?

I don't want to turn this into an argument on GC though so I'll bow out of this version of the conversation.

Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: queenduck] #236635
03/17/07 03:02 PM
03/17/07 03:02 PM

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I just want a white one!!

Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: ] #236647
03/17/07 03:30 PM
03/17/07 03:30 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 8,366
Quincy, IL 62305
Lynsie Offline OP
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Lynsie  Offline OP
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I think we are having a really good discussion here guys, lets just try to keep it civil.

Although I agree that I would never want leu's to get over populated; look at how many people out there desperately want a leu for a pet only just because they love how pretty they are, and they can't afford them. Why is it fair that the only people who can afford leu's are the breeders, and only because they know they can make some money back eventually. I know there are still people out there that have them as pets only, but not many. Either way no one really wins. It's either the leus are parce and prices are high, or leus get overpopulated but people can afford them.

Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: Lynsie] #236693
03/17/07 05:12 PM
03/17/07 05:12 PM

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there are a lot of really good points out there, the question i have that i've seen come up is why is it acceptable to breed a leu with a leu het but not with the hets lue sibling? I am just curiouse on why. i would like a leu baby someday just for a pet but i know i will not be able to afford one for a very long time. i will probably have to try and save for several yrs and even then it might not happen, so i know as one of the people just wanting one for a pet because they are just soooooooo beautiful that if the breeding them with out genetic consequenses would bring the price down why would it be bad? please don't get mad at me i am just courious and have not been in the glider world all that long.

Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: Lynsie] #236719
03/17/07 06:07 PM
03/17/07 06:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
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Hudson Valley, NY
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Originally Posted By: Lynsie
Although I agree that I would never want leu's to get over populated; look at how many people out there desperately want a leu for a pet only just because they love how pretty they are, and they can't afford them. Why is it fair that the only people who can afford leu's are the breeders, and only because they know they can make some money back eventually. I know there are still people out there that have them as pets only, but not many. Either way no one really wins. It's either the leus are parce and prices are high, or leus get overpopulated but people can afford them.


I agree! I have a dream of one day being owned by a leu... roflmao but right now I have 3 young human kids to care for along with my suggies. I just can't afford one, and while the prices have come down, that makes it a possibility we may have to face. Then what? When does it end? One day would there be as may as there are greys and dare I say it... Homeless Rescue Leus?

I don't think it should be about money or color! It should be a decision based strictly on genetics and "For the good of the glider"... but everyone will probley have to make that decision on their own and there will always be someone whose opinion frowns upon it.

(Now, worried nobody please bite my head off... Just my opinion...)


Krys DeRosa
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Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: krysKritters] #236770
03/17/07 07:39 PM
03/17/07 07:39 PM

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Robin, I am not "personally involved", as I do not have 2 leus paired together. I have no control over who the joeys I sell are paired with. The woman did ask my opinion on the pairing, and I do not see a problem with it. As I stated, they are third cousins. I would rather see her pair 2 leus together that are 3rd cousins than 2 hets that are first cousins. This woman could have made the same exact genetic pairing with a leu and a het. Again I ask, as far as genetics are concerned, what is the difference?

If people start breeding leu to leu and we begin seeing some kind of genetic or health problem arrise, then obviously my feelings would change. At this time, it would be my only cause for concern. But there is no evidence that it could cause any health problems.

I also do not have a problem with the price coming down. My bringing up price was just to address the concern of leucistics becoming too common and ending up overpopulating and in rescues. This can be done just as easily with het to het breeding. There are breeders, such as Jennifer Bender, who offer leucistics as pet only (neutered), for extremely reasonable prices. IOn the meantime, most people may have to wait until they are more common to be able to afford one. As with wf gliders, it will happen that leus will some day be affordable and easily obtained.

Robin, your problem with leus being bred to leus seems to be about relation, but please, explain the difference to me on the same genetics being bred but with 2 hets instead of two leus. The genetic outcome is still the same. Either way you can get a leu joey with great genetics. I honestly do not understand your problem with it. Instead of telling me that breeding 2 leus together is bad for genetics, telll me WHY it would be bad for genetics. Then maybe I will understand and possibly agree with you. And as far as greed, I still do not understand where money comes into this whole conversation. That has nothing to do with the gliders produced.

On a side note, Lynsie asked for opinions. This is my opinion. You are free to have your own and disagree with me. I do not have a problem with that. If you want to attack me because I do not agree with you, feel free. I still stand on my opinion.

Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: ] #236903
03/17/07 11:12 PM
03/17/07 11:12 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
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Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
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Gracious, and I thought this thread was about breeding.

Prices are reflected by demand and availablity. It is as simple as that.

And while we see a lot of Leucistics on this website... the average person does not even know there is a white glider much less ever seen or touched one. The leucistic is still rare.

It would be the two breeders of the BEW's that I would commend as to having achived something very valuable to the genetic pool.

Anyway... I am not going to contribute anything further to thread as it appears to be a debate. I replied to it because I am was interested in the genetic side of the original posters topic.

Last edited by Judie; 03/18/07 12:01 AM.
Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: ] #236916
03/17/07 11:45 PM
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Re: Leucistic x Leucistic [Re: ] #236956
03/18/07 12:52 AM
03/18/07 12:52 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 8,366
Quincy, IL 62305
Lynsie Offline OP
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I didn't really want this to turn into a huge controversy, I just really wanted to know if the lines were bred out enough to breed 2 leus together yet. I think this thread has completed it's purpose and brought up some very good points on both sides. Since I don't want ANOTHER one of MY threads getting taken down, I am going to ask for this one to be locked. If you guys want to finish your controversy then you'll have to take it to another board that allows such things.


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