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If I wanted to breed for a Leu #271574
04/26/07 02:10 PM
04/26/07 02:10 PM
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GliderParentnTN Offline OP
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Just what breed of Gliders do I need to produce my own Leu's? That sounded silly I know what breed just need to know whats my best option.

I understand it's kinda a hit and miss with the hets but what success have you all had with het's and what percentage are your Hets that has produced a BEW (percentage as in 50-60% het or 66% het or 100%)


James
Rockie,Princess,Scooter & Pumpkin
Chip & Dale
Bonnie,Clyde & JessieJames
Pez,Cotton,Carina & the twins
Caimyn & Cassio
Ares & Athena
Dingo & Raven
Louie
Roo-Bennett Wallaby

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: GliderParentnTN] #271586
04/26/07 02:30 PM
04/26/07 02:30 PM

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If you put 2 100% hets together then you will get leu babies. If you put a Leu with a 100% het you will get leu babies.

Any of the lower percentage is a chance. My sister has had 2 50% hets prove that they were 100% hets their first time breeding. They are both paired with a leu glider.

I only have 100% hets.

Both parents must carry the gene to make leu. So if you have a Leu with a 50% het that never have a leu baby, more then likely the 50% het really is just a gray.

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: ] #271589
04/26/07 02:37 PM
04/26/07 02:37 PM
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GliderParentnTN Offline OP
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Thanks Elisabeth, It's just an idea right now nothing serious. I already have one Leu but she is Pet only and would never go against my word. Just thinking outloud and weighing my options, however I would like to have a joey leu (male) for a pet only.

"So if you have a Leu with a 50% het that never have a leu baby, more then likely the 50% het really is just a gray."

That would be one expensive Gray if they wanted Leu's.



James
Rockie,Princess,Scooter & Pumpkin
Chip & Dale
Bonnie,Clyde & JessieJames
Pez,Cotton,Carina & the twins
Caimyn & Cassio
Ares & Athena
Dingo & Raven
Louie
Roo-Bennett Wallaby

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: GliderParentnTN] #271590
04/26/07 02:37 PM
04/26/07 02:37 PM

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The 25, 33, 50, 66% thing is kind of confusing. There is no such thing as a partial het--they either are or they aren't. If you have a 25% het, you ACTUALLY have a 25% chance of the glider being het. for leu (or 100% het). Obviously, the higher the percentage, the greater the chance yours is a real het. That's where proving your glider out comes in. If, somewhere down the line, your 100% het and 25% het product a white baby, that means your 25% becomes a 100%--and it's time to update the % of all the past babies. Make sense? This is why I could NEVER breed for color--I'd be making up numbers left and right.
I'm sure some others might be able to say more on it... and here's a page if you really want to do some number crunching:
Leu breeding explained

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: ] #271607
04/26/07 02:58 PM
04/26/07 02:58 PM
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Ontario, Canada
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So in other words breeding a 100% lue het and a WFB (or other) is not ever going to produce a Lue?

And every time you see a % number other then 100% means that this is only the "chance" that you have of your glider proving that it is actually 100% het?

So if you did want to breed for Leu you would really be better off taking the crunch of purchasing 2 100% Hets unless you want to take your chances and possibly buy a REALLY expensive grey!

I hope all of this makes sense, I have been finding this het business to be so confusing.

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: scraptilldawn] #271615
04/26/07 03:03 PM
04/26/07 03:03 PM
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Ontario, Canada
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Wow that is a great link and pretty much answered every question I have been trying to figure out for weeks!!! Thank you so much for posting it, and I guess I should have read it before typing. LOL

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: scraptilldawn] #271628
04/26/07 03:20 PM
04/26/07 03:20 PM

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Yes scraptilldawn, if you breed a leu with a wfb then you will never get a leu baby. However you will be breeding out the lines and making it stronger for breeders down the road. A elu with wfb would be making 100% leu hets (some of them being wfbs and other grays)

There are actually alot of people who have proved out there lower % possible hets. But yes it is a risk. That is why lower % hets are way cheeper. Because breeders know that there is a chance that the joey may not even be a carrier of the leu gene.

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: scraptilldawn] #271631
04/26/07 03:23 PM
04/26/07 03:23 PM
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GliderParentnTN Offline OP
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Not to start a uproar or controversy over this but on one side of this het deal is you have some well known breeders say there is really no such thing as a Het then you go to there websites and see they list hets for sale. This I don't understand why say one thing and do the opp.


James
Rockie,Princess,Scooter & Pumpkin
Chip & Dale
Bonnie,Clyde & JessieJames
Pez,Cotton,Carina & the twins
Caimyn & Cassio
Ares & Athena
Dingo & Raven
Louie
Roo-Bennett Wallaby

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: ] #271636
04/26/07 03:30 PM
04/26/07 03:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
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I have found this to be a very informative thread, I myself would get confused when I seen the percentage numbers, and the whole het thing, I am glad I ran across this. All i knew was that a het carried the gene but did not look like it. I think really made me fully understand, Thank you!


Cindy
Mom to
Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy

& all my fuzzies!
Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's.
Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com

:rtmo: :leu:

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: GliderParentnTN] #271638
04/26/07 03:33 PM
04/26/07 03:33 PM

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It's all in the naming, which is why the whole concept sounds odd. I've also seen some label as "50% possible het"--it's the same thing as just saying 50% het. I think it's just one of those understood terminologies among breeders. I don't think they are necessarily (and I know you didn't say this) cheating anyone by selling a 50% het at a higher rate than a normal gray. For example, a breeder has a 50 and a 100, they sell the joeys as whatever %het that makes them (like I said before, I don't understand where the numbers come from all the time!). Now, say the 100 and the 50 have a leu baby, that means the 50% is actually a 100% and the offspring before that actually have an even higher chance of producing leus. Ok, now I've gone and confused myself...But something to that extent!

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: GliderParentnTN] #271639
04/26/07 03:33 PM
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There is such thing as 100% het in leucistics. Most people who are getting into leucistics know that the lower percent hets are either a 100% het or not a het at all. It is a risk that they have to be willing to make.

There is no way to 100% guarantee a lower percent het until you breed it with a leu or another het. So breeders have put lower percents on them to give the people buying the joey an idea of how likely they are to carry the leu gene. 25% hets are usually the same price as a gray. Imangine for someone who did prove out a 25% het... that would be one cheep 100% leu het! lol

You might be getting White Face confused with Leucistics. In the wf gene it is believed that there are no hets for wf. In all the years there have only been 1 or 2 cases where 2 hets (both of the "hets" came from parents that were both wf) for wf produced wf babies. But the wf gene is very different then a leu gene.

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: ] #271654
04/26/07 03:42 PM
04/26/07 03:42 PM
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GliderParentnTN Offline OP
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I can understand this as a het on either say the Leu or WF

Both parents say are WF or leus they have twins one is of the gene the other shows no signs of the Gene

example 2 wf has 1 wf and 1 normal
2 leu has 1 BEW the other a normal

I can see where this is could justifiably be a true Het

The other percentages as stated is a gamble and of course at a reduced cost.

Maybe I should just wait when a BEW male comes avail instead of buying 2 to get 1 that sounds like a plain,

Thanks for the input though I'm learning as well.



James
Rockie,Princess,Scooter & Pumpkin
Chip & Dale
Bonnie,Clyde & JessieJames
Pez,Cotton,Carina & the twins
Caimyn & Cassio
Ares & Athena
Dingo & Raven
Louie
Roo-Bennett Wallaby

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: GliderParentnTN] #271663
04/26/07 03:52 PM
04/26/07 03:52 PM

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For some it is a pain but others they love it. I was like you though and didn't want to wait for hets to breed and make a leu. I wanted a leucsitic right then and there! lol

It is cheeper to get 2 100% hets though, usually costing $2000 for the both of them. A leu male is $2500. So for people that want to save the $500 it is worth it to them and not a pain.

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: ] #271688
04/26/07 04:30 PM
04/26/07 04:30 PM
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GliderParentnTN Offline OP
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I had seen on a breeders website that they offer a Neutered BEW for 1000.00 so this is what I'll do sure hate to spend 2500.00 for one and clip him but I know Teresa she won't sell any babies. Now i just to also find who it was i saw that had male leus Neutered for 1 grand. No offense to you all that sell them 1500.00 is a big savings for a pet only.



James
Rockie,Princess,Scooter & Pumpkin
Chip & Dale
Bonnie,Clyde & JessieJames
Pez,Cotton,Carina & the twins
Caimyn & Cassio
Ares & Athena
Dingo & Raven
Louie
Roo-Bennett Wallaby

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: GliderParentnTN] #271690
04/26/07 04:34 PM
04/26/07 04:34 PM

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Originally Posted By: GliderParentnTN
I can understand this as a het on either say the Leu or WF

Both parents say are WF or leus they have twins one is of the gene the other shows no signs of the Gene

example 2 wf has 1 wf and 1 normal
2 leu has 1 BEW the other a normal

I can see where this is could justifiably be a true Het

The other percentages as stated is a gamble and of course at a reduced cost.

Maybe I should just wait when a BEW male comes avail instead of buying 2 to get 1 that sounds like a plain,

Thanks for the input though I'm learning as well.



There are not WF hets... there ARE Leu hets. WF is a dominant gene, different from the color gene and it is always expressed. Meaning if the WF gene is in the gliders DNA, you see it! You only need one WF parent to pass it on to the babies. (on another note mosaic/white variation is the same)

Leucistic is a resesive (sp?) gene... that means all the color genes in a glider must be Leu genes in order for the leu color to show. So both parents must carry the leu gene and both must pass it to the baby to get a leu. If you breed a leu to a normal you will get a 100% het because the leu has no other gene to pass on.

I hope that helps smile

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: GliderParentnTN] #271700
04/26/07 04:46 PM
04/26/07 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: GliderParentnTN
Now i just to also find who it was i saw that had male leus Neutered for 1 grand. No offense to you all that sell them 1500.00 is a big savings for a pet only.


I actually prefer people that want neutered males, and I bump them to the top of my waiting list.

Possible hets can be a great way to go. (My leu is from a 50%/25% het pair- who have actually had more leu joeys than hets.) Not only is it considerably cheaper to set up a pair, but 50% and lower hets are wonderful for the leu lines. The more normals that are bred to leus and leu hets, the better. I truly fear that with all the leu-to-100%-het and 100%-het-to-100%-het pairs, we will start to see sterility. There just aren't enough lines to keep breeding in without consequences.

Last edited by TheGliderPlayroom; 04/26/07 04:47 PM.

Helen
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Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: TheGliderPlayroom] #271710
04/26/07 04:55 PM
04/26/07 04:55 PM

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You are so right! In a perfect world we'd never breed closer than 50% hets and all 100% hets and Leus would be placed with greys or WFs. I understand that it seems like taking a chance but the truth is it's the only way we will save the leucistics!

I was just sitting here thinking of how to word a post about this but Helen said it perfectly.

Someday I'll be able to do this myself, but those of you that can... please consider helping the Leu lines.

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: ] #271723
04/26/07 05:08 PM
04/26/07 05:08 PM
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Ok, I hope i am not being stupid but I truly want to understand correctly, To help save the Leu lines it's better to breed them with grey's or WF to produce 50% Hets (am I correct on the percentage?) help me fully understand here, I think I get it, but I am not quite sure. (sorry not always the brightest one) LOL


Cindy
Mom to
Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy

& all my fuzzies!
Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's.
Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com

:rtmo: :leu:

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: GliderLove] #271727
04/26/07 05:15 PM
04/26/07 05:15 PM

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Yes, by breeding them outside of the Leucistic lines we can make the lines stronger.

If we only breed our hets and Leus back into the Leu lines we are going to end up with all of our Leus and hets having the same exact pedigree's.

Does that make sense? I can try to explain it better if it doesn't.

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: ] #271730
04/26/07 05:17 PM
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Also, no question is a stupid question and this is my favorite subject ever!! I love talking about it smile

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: ] #271736
04/26/07 05:21 PM
04/26/07 05:21 PM
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LOL, ok since you LOVE this subject so much, yes please explain more. I think what you are trying to say is if you breed them down to Percentages and then breed them with other percentages it broaden's their lines since your adding in Grey/Wf too right? ok, did I just word that right?? LOL


Cindy
Mom to
Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy

& all my fuzzies!
Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's.
Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com

:rtmo: :leu:

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: GliderLove] #271744
04/26/07 05:31 PM
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Exactly!

If you look at leucistic pedigrees you are going to see a LOT of the same gliders on there. I recently found a 100% het that had Mickey on it's pedigree FIVE times! That's just not ok.

Untill we take a stand and say we will NOT accept this inbreeding for our beutiful Leucistics and start taking action to fix it... it's just going to get worse.

We need to *branch out* the family tree.

IMO we should breed Leu's to standards (standards being any glider without Leu lines in its pedigree), then breed those 100% hets to standards, then breed our 50% hets to get white and start over. That's the only way that I can figure out that we can get away from Mickey, Zues/Ethan, Minnie, Mac and Cheese and all the rest of them.

More? lol

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: ] #271753
04/26/07 05:42 PM
04/26/07 05:42 PM
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ok, That makes complete sense now, thanks!! LOL Hmm, now there's something to think about if you plan on being a breeder, why not breed to actaully "HELP" the glider. Fabulous idea. ( I know I am late to the idea..lol)


Cindy
Mom to
Jae, Ashton, Briannah, Nevaeh & Addy

& all my fuzzies!
Breeder of Leu's, Mosaics, wfb, and standard grey's.
Owner of www.MySugarAddiction.com

:rtmo: :leu:

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: ] #271761
04/26/07 05:50 PM
04/26/07 05:50 PM
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Ontario, Canada
scraptilldawn Offline
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Now here's my problem, If I'm thinking of breeding (pet) lue's but am not rolling in cash and need to purchase 1 het at a time how do I pair my breeders without swaping them around when i get a new Lue het. I wouldn't want to remove them from a bonded mate, but I would want to try and produce a lue once I have 2 hets. Does this make sense. I wouldn't want more then 7 gliders or so just because my main goal is to have beautiful pets who happen to produce wonderful babies I could sell.

On another note could someone please give me the phonetic spelling of luecistic? I think I have been saying it wrong. LOL

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: GliderLove] #271763
04/26/07 05:53 PM
04/26/07 05:53 PM

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Something else to keep in mind for breeders is it IS very important to have pedigree's on standard and WF gliders. Not just because they will be vital to the Leu lines but also because it's just so important to know where our gliders come from. Pedigrees have to start somewhere!!

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: scraptilldawn] #271764
04/26/07 05:54 PM
04/26/07 05:54 PM
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TnR I'm just curious why you breed only standard and WF. You seem really knowledgeable on the Lue's and would be a great asset to the breeding community.

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: ] #271777
04/26/07 06:03 PM
04/26/07 06:03 PM

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I say it Lue-kiss-tic

Well, that is a problem... space. I do fully understand it's a lot easier to buy two 100% hets and pair them and get a white glider than it is to buy two 100% and breed them to standards and then breed your 50% hets together in however many pairs it takes to get white. Much less space and time... but much worse on our Leu lines.

My only advice on that is make friends with someone as Leu obsessed as you are and work together so you can split the numbers.

I hope that helps!

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: ] #271790
04/26/07 06:14 PM
04/26/07 06:14 PM

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I am Leu obsessed but I'm also poor smile My dear husband and I have a huge soft spot for animals in need and we have a lot of pets, plus two kids. Between feeding them, medical care, and our regular bills (on one income because I stay home) we just have not been able to afford it yet. I'm working on it though!

I love gliders... it's all I talk about. Leucistic breeding has caught my attention the most... I think we each have a favorite *area* of sugar gliders that catches our interest more than others. Well... leucistics and toys, lol.

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: GliderLove] #271791
04/26/07 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: GliderLove

Ok, I hope i am not being stupid but I truly want to understand correctly, To help save the Leu lines it's better to breed them with grey's or WF to produce 50% Hets (am I correct on the percentage?) help me fully understand here, I think I get it, but I am not quite sure. (sorry not always the brightest one) LOL


The offspring of a leu to a wf or gray would be 100% hets, not 50%.

Re: If I wanted to breed for a Leu [Re: scraptilldawn] #271804
04/26/07 06:29 PM
04/26/07 06:29 PM
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Albany, NY
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Originally Posted By: scraptilldawn
could someone please give me the phonetic spelling of luecistic? I think I have been saying it wrong. LOL

From dictionary.com:

Quote:
The correct pronunciation of leucistic is (loo-kiss-tic)


Ya learn something new everyday! I've been pronouncing it "loo-sis-tick" up until I read that just now, LOL. blush

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