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This didn't happen...how could it? #33374
01/08/05 02:25 AM
01/08/05 02:25 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
StitchsMom Offline OP
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<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" /> I just don't know what to say. My roomie (who is very glider knowledgable because of me) decided to let Lilo and Stitch out to play in the bathroom. We do this all the time. This time...I wasn't home.

The phone rang. He went to answer it. Lilo and Stitch drowned in the toilet. It took no more than a few minutes. I can't bear to think about it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" />

I still can't believe it. I even have signs posted on the toilet! Keep the lid down! Drowning hazard! This just isn't happening...

This is my first glider loss. Stitchie was my first glider. Losing two at one time is just making it harder.

I am so crushed. I screamed and cried and he was crying the whole time. I didn't mean to lose it, I just couldn't believe what he was telling me. Not my babies. Not my precious fur-butts. He is so upset he will barely even speak to me. Those gliders were part of the family here and now they're gone. I just can't believe it.

I am going to miss them soooo much. I can't believe that they are really gone. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/needhug.gif" alt="" />

Attached Files
322832-Gliderpair1.JPG (170 downloads)

~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~
>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<
Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33375
01/08/05 02:35 AM
01/08/05 02:35 AM

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Oh my goodness Jenny that's just heart breaking <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" />

There's nothing we can say that can ease your pain right now, but please know that we are here for you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33376
01/08/05 02:40 AM
01/08/05 02:40 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
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80 acres of paradise in KS
Oh NOOOO! I am sooooooo so sorry! My prayers for you and your roomie. How terribly sad. I just don't know what to say.....


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33377
01/08/05 03:28 AM
01/08/05 03:28 AM

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I am so sorry. My heart goes out to you in this difficult time.

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33378
01/08/05 03:31 AM
01/08/05 03:31 AM

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Oh, my goodness. I don't even know what to say. That's such a painful situation. I can't even imagine how you feel right now, but just know that there are people here who care about you and want to do their very best to comfort you during this hard time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> to you and prayers for you during this difficult time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33379
01/08/05 04:14 AM
01/08/05 04:14 AM

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I'm just so sorry, I have no words...I'm so sorry that you lost your babies, prayers and hugs going out to you tonight.

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33380
01/08/05 05:06 AM
01/08/05 05:06 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,899
Jacksonville, FL
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Jacksonville, FL
That's just too horrible to think about! It's what my nightmares are made of. I am so, so sorry this happened to you and your precious babies. They'll wait at the Bridge for you! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />


Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley
Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33381
01/08/05 05:32 AM
01/08/05 05:32 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
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IL (St. Louis area)
Thank you all for your kind words. I've been so numb all day. I NEVER expected anything like this to happen in MY home. Isn't that how it always is? I really thought I had taken every single precaution. I really thought my gliders were perfectly safe.

I drove home in awful weather (Illinois weather...ick) and got pulled over for not having current stickers on my plates. I walk in the front door to my roomie wiping tears from his cheeks and cradling a pouch. I knew before he said a word. I already knew. My heart just sank to my stomach. It was just heart breaking...

My boyfriend is beside himself. He hated to admit it, but Stich was his boy. He is trying to act all tough like it doesn't bother him, but I caught him staring blankly at their pouch a minute ago. He looked up and said, "It's so empty." I just burst into tears...again.


~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~
>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<
Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33382
01/08/05 05:54 AM
01/08/05 05:54 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,899
Jacksonville, FL
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Serious Glideritis
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Joined: Feb 2003
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Jacksonville, FL
I've buried 4 of my beloved gliders, and know the pain. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" /> There's nothing like it. Think of them happy and playing at the Rainbow Bridge-tree climbing, running through the dew covered grass, flying. Always warm and plenty to eat-no fear, pain, sickness. Then one day, they'll stop and look into the distance....and next thing you know you'll be covered with face hugs and those precious little noses in your face, deep black eyes looking into yours...and you cross the Rainbow Bridge together...
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />


Jen/Colin :bb: Commander Riker 12 16 02-10 04 12 you will be FOREVER missed :wfb: Sinbad, :wfb: Gabby, :grey: Baby, and :grey: Alley
Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33383
01/08/05 07:12 AM
01/08/05 07:12 AM

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I am so sorry for your losses. I lost Squirrel about 7 months ago and was heartbroken. My thoughts and prayers go out to you and your boyfriend. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33384
01/08/05 12:42 PM
01/08/05 12:42 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
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Glideritis Anonymous
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Glideritis Anonymous

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Posts: 11,583
Sycamore Illinois
Oh my, I am so sorry for what happened...there aren't really any words that can help, but know that we are here to mourn with you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />.

Karin


Miss Lily and Bud
Prada and Armani
Tessa, Deuce and Cami

Tira and Misu angel Deja and Vu

Glider Daydreams



"Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass...It is about learning to
dance in the rain!"
Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33385
01/08/05 12:57 PM
01/08/05 12:57 PM

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OMG...I am so very sorry this horrible thing happened to you and your babies...I cannot imagine what you are going through...And your poor room mate...I hope you have found it in your heart to forgive him...My heart goes out to all of you...Your room mate, your boyfriend and you...

I wish I knew how to link past posts...this would be the perfect place to link the post with the "Toilet Ladder" someone here invented...I can't even remember who the wonderful person was right now...I had them in both toilets in my old house but I forgot about them when we moved here...But I am going to the hardware store right now and getting the stuff to make some for this house...If anyone reads this post that knows how to link posts can you PLEASE link that one here so everyone...old and new alike can see it and maybe save more lives....Thanks

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33386
01/08/05 01:33 PM
01/08/05 01:33 PM

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I am SO sorry for your loss of not just one but TWO of your babies! Thoughts and prayers are with you! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33387
01/08/05 01:41 PM
01/08/05 01:41 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
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I am SOOOO sorry to hear this....I can not imagine the pain that both you and your room mate are feeling right now.


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33388
01/08/05 02:25 PM
01/08/05 02:25 PM

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I am so sorry for you and your boyfriend's loss. There are no words that can take away the pain. I'll always remember some of the pictures you've taken of Lilo and Stitch. Hugs to you and yours....

~Lynn

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33389
01/08/05 03:07 PM
01/08/05 03:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
StitchsMom Offline OP
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Thanks again. I, of course, forgave my roomie. He didn't intend to cause harm. We are all adjusting to this in our own way.

I remember that post about the toilet ladders. I'm going to be looking into it. Something tells me that the lid will always be down now.


~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~
>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<
Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33390
01/08/05 03:10 PM
01/08/05 03:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 16,800
St. Johns, Florida
Srlb Offline
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Joined: Oct 2003
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St. Johns, Florida
The link to the toilet ladder is Here


Peggy
Critter Love
Critter Love� Diet Center

If you want to know what a person is like, watch how he treats others.

You'll never know what the outcome is if you don't step up and try.

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33391
01/08/05 03:16 PM
01/08/05 03:16 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 7,078
USA
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Serious Glideritis
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 7,078
USA
Oh my gosh... what an awful thing to happen. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
I cant imagine how you must be feeling (or your poor roommate). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> Loosing our little ones is so hard... I am SO very sorry. I just dont know what to say. My heart goes out to you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33392
01/08/05 03:17 PM
01/08/05 03:17 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,321
Central FL
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Posts: 4,321
Central FL
I'm so so sorry for your losses. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> I can't even imagine how hard the pain of losing one is. Losing 2 at once must be unbearable. Try to remember the good times you had with them and imagine them arriving at the Rainbow Bridge together. They'll have each other to glide with as they wait on you there. (((Hugs))) to you and your roomie. I know he must feel just awful about this. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/upset.gif" alt="" />


~Rischa~
My Sugar Babies
Photos & Videos

Rest peacefully until I see you at the bridge, Sweet Lillian. gangel Mommy, Daddy, and brother Philip miss you terribly.
Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33393
01/08/05 04:44 PM
01/08/05 04:44 PM

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This is so terrible it makes me want to cry. I lost my baby Mo on New Year's Eve and I will tell you, the grief was worse than when some of my own human family members died. I am so, so sorry that you just experienced the same thing.

Sometimes it makes me afraid that no matter how careful we are, our babies are just too vulnerable. Since Mo passed and I've read other stories, it has turned me into a totally worried, overprotective mother. I know how you feel when you wonder how it could have happened in your house, after being so careful. What a helpless feeling.

All my sympathy is with you.

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33394
01/08/05 04:57 PM
01/08/05 04:57 PM

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Thank you for posting that link...I pray none of us ever has to say our little ones used the ladders but I'd rather hear of it's success than hear more sad stories...

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33395
01/08/05 05:49 PM
01/08/05 05:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
StitchsMom Offline OP
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StitchsMom  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

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Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
Gizmo and Sprocket have hardly left me unless I personally put them in their cage. I have asked everyone who lives here to avoid handling any of my caged pets without my explicit permission/supervision. I've gone nuts, I swear it!

I actually crawled through my room (glider proof) trying to find any tiny thing I may have missed that could harm my two babies. I capped off every electrical outlet, I used baby clamps on all cabinet doors, and I even put fresh Glider Drowing Hazard signs on the toilet. Thanks for the link to the ladder. To think, it could have saved them both...

I cannot stop crying. I've lost pets before, but this is unreal. Ask anyone. I'm a psycho about my gliders. They get top notch care, housing, food, etc. They are treated like royalty here! I can't even walk into that bathroom without thinking of them. I think my other two know that something is wrong. They chittered and chattered all night long to each other. I wonder if they know?

Anyway, thanks yet again. I will eventually come to terms with this.


~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~
>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<
Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33396
01/08/05 06:47 PM
01/08/05 06:47 PM

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I'm so sorry for your loss, and your pain. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />
Rainbow Bridge is a grand place! I know you know that and I know it doesn't erase the pain. BUT, if you try really hard to see them there, try really hard to see them together and not suffering <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/gliderangel.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/gliderangel.gif" alt="" />, try really hard to realize that they are watching over you, Gizmo and Sprocket with love, maybe, just maybe, it will be bearable until the pain diminishes and memories of happier times with them fills the void where the pain once was. That is my hope for you and your roomie. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33397
01/08/05 08:37 PM
01/08/05 08:37 PM

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I am so sorry for your loss we all no how much you loved them . I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers. Hope you feel better soon. I'm sending you lots of glider hugs
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/littleglider.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frostyangel.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cloud9.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/muchlove.gif" alt="" />

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33398
01/08/05 08:47 PM
01/08/05 08:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
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Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Jenny, I'm so sorry you lost your babies. Many of us have been there but it doesn't make it any easier for you. I hope you find solace in the babies you have left and we will all be here to help you in any way we can. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33399
01/08/05 09:34 PM
01/08/05 09:34 PM

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I am so sorry to hear of your loss. My thoughts and prayers go out to you, your bf, and your roomate as I know how precious each of my fur babies are to me, my gliders even more so. The bond tends to work both ways. I pray that in time your pain is eased and that you take comfort in the ones that remain. Just keep remembering that they are together now in a better place, and one day you will see them again.

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33400
01/08/05 10:08 PM
01/08/05 10:08 PM

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Jenny, I wanted to let you know how sorry I am. I had the same experience with my flying squirrel a couple of years ago. It was awful. I hope you can get through this and find peace again. You are a great glider mom. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33401
01/09/05 01:00 AM
01/09/05 01:00 AM

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I totally understand your hurt... Easter Sunday, 2004 (I know bad but we let our gliders out at night in our master bedroom) my husband didn't drain bathwater. I knew it was odd when I got up and Mookie and Teekie weren't eating.. waited a an hour and started looking ... the water was murky.. it still hurts.. they were both in there.. they loved each other sooo much.. (crying .. sorry) Hugs for you.
Brandy @ MY SUGAR BABIES
<a href="www.mysugarbabies.com" target="_blank">web page</a>

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33402
01/10/05 12:24 AM
01/10/05 12:24 AM

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Oh poor Jenny. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crying.gif" alt="" /> And your poor roommate. How horrible he must feel. I have no words. This is so sad...and I feel for you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worried2.gif" alt="" />. I will pray for you to get over your pain, but I know that only time can help. Many hugs and lots of love. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33403
01/10/05 02:15 AM
01/10/05 02:15 AM

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I am crying for you. I know exactly how it feels. I wanted a suggie for 8 years and finally got my precious Loki... not more than two months after I got him, my roomies didn't close his cage properly and he too drowned in the toilet. I found him the next morning... All of my heart goes out to you. I also send every tear I cried in hopes that maybe you can shed less of them. Your babies are together still... and they love you. Take care sweetie. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

PS- I actually have a glider ladder installed in my toilet now... and it helps me sleep at night. Fantastic invention... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33404
01/10/05 04:18 PM
01/10/05 04:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
StitchsMom Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
StitchsMom  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
I'm so sorry to hear of everyone's losses. I must admit, it's comforting to know I'm not alone. The toilet ladders are going in tomorrow.

I also wanted to mention that someone (name will be left out until I know it's okay to mention it) sent me a PM and made the sweetest offer I had ever heard. In order to help me get through this, they offered me a sweet little boy to bring home. I am again stunned at the kindest of strangers. I know that we all "know" each other here, but this is just the most amazing thing anyone has ever done for me. I wanted to publicly thank them for what this. I don't think they know how much this gesture has already helped me cope.

Thanks for being such wonderful people!


~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~
>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<
Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33405
01/10/05 06:18 PM
01/10/05 06:18 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 666
Xenia, Oh
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Posts: 666
Xenia, Oh
I am so sorry for your loss. My prayers and hugs are with you. But what a great thing for someone to do. The love and generosity that one gets from this board always amazes me.


Candy

Mom to 2 skin kids, Jace and Jaxon
Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33406
01/10/05 09:27 PM
01/10/05 09:27 PM

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Oh Jenny, my heart is just breaking for you. I cannot imagine losing two of my babies at once; your pain must just be unbearable.

My heart is still breaking over losing my precious Sophie during the holidays. There's just nothing more painful.

Bless your heart. One thing that helped me was spending more time with my other suggies; knowing that they still needed my love helped me a lot.

Lilo and Stitch are playing at the Bridge and I know they don't want you to suffer their loss...they will be with you again someday.

We have so much pain because we loved them so much.

Hugs to you and your boyfriend.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" />

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33407
01/11/05 02:59 AM
01/11/05 02:59 AM

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Oh, I am terribly sorry to hear about your Lilo and Stitch...I just love that picture of them dancing...such a picture of love. I do hope that in time your heart will heal. Sending lots of <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/heartpump.gif" alt="" /> and <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> in your direction.

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33408
01/11/05 05:19 PM
01/11/05 05:19 PM

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OMG You've had thoughs little guys for so long! I remember always seeing posts of stitch from you! I just can't belive that! My heart gos out to you! I lost my ferret I had since I was 11yrs old year before last so I know what you're going through *Gives a big hug*

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33409
01/12/05 04:30 AM
01/12/05 04:30 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
StitchsMom Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
StitchsMom  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" /> You guys are the absolute best! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />


~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~
>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<
Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33410
01/12/05 04:53 PM
01/12/05 04:53 PM

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My heart is also breaking for you. We lost our baby Gabby the same way not long ago. It is horrible. I still get up sometimes at night and check the toilets. It is such a common thing that we never think will happen to us. I promise the hurt will heal in time.
Stacey

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33411
01/13/05 03:06 AM
01/13/05 03:06 AM

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My heart is breaking for you. What an awful thing to happen. The loss of a pet, not to mention two, is a terrible event to go thru. I have lost many pets over the years and still miss each one of them dearly. I know there is nothing anyone can say to ease your pain, but I hope that it will lessen with time.
Di <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/upset.gif" alt="" />

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33412
01/13/05 04:09 AM
01/13/05 04:09 AM

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StitchsMom, my condolences, hun. That's really tragic and I extend all my support to you and will keep you in my prayers. Actually, I've been visiting this particular thread many times, but I just didn't know what to say or how to put my feelings for you and this situation into words... It's really tragic... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/upset.gif" alt="" />

...but I just wanted to let you know that I have had your loss in my mind for quite sometime and I'm now here to show my support for you in writing.

Things like this are very hard to deal with. I think I'm at loss of words here, but I must say that I as well as all of these fine people here have your back at this time of loss! Please take care. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hug2.gif" alt="" />

Mikey

Re: This didn't happen...how could it? [Re: ] #33413
01/13/05 04:12 AM
01/13/05 04:12 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
StitchsMom Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous
StitchsMom  Offline OP
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,569
IL (St. Louis area)
I think the reason this one is so hard is because it was an accident. It wasn't like old age or illness. This was a total shock. To hear that both of them had drowned was awful. But I know that Stitch would hardly ever stray too far from Lilo's side. I can almost imagine it...he probably just hopped right in after her...

I am doing much better. Everyone here has been such a help. You are all wonderful people with huge hearts! I am so thankful to have been part of this community prior to this incident. The support and kind words have really helped all of us here dealing with the loss.


~*~Jenny and the fur kids~*~
>>> Sugar Glider Slave <<<
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