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Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ] #353340
08/03/07 12:16 PM
08/03/07 12:16 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
Dancing  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
off_topic
Quote:
The tail started as one at the base and then forked into 2 tails.


out of just morbid curiosity, I would like to see pics of those.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: princessmegi] #353341
08/03/07 12:16 PM
08/03/07 12:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
HelloSugar-
I realize you aren't posting anymore.

However, your last post really disappointed me. No one was being offensive, and yet you took offense. I saw no one criticize your position- only question it, and state their own positions. If your theories can not stand up to questioning, then what good are they?

I already said that I disagree, but respect your opinions.

Your attitude in your last post has me very puzzled. Instead of sounding intelligent, you sounded very defensive. No one questioned your intelligence, nor your ability to care for your pets. Rather *how* you care for your pets in various circumstances was questioned. You had an opportunity to educate us on your beliefs.

I am SO deeply against pet over-population that it is not just unlikely, but impossible, that I would ever endorse an anti-neutering stance. To me the statistics and evidence which support neutering FAR out-weigh the negative effects.

I've lived with pets my whole life, and have never had a pet who wasn't spayed or neutered. (with the exception of my female gliders). I had a cat who died at the age of 19, and I currently have a 15 year old cat and a 13 year old cat. My dog, who was a large breed, with a normal life expectancy of around 9-11 years, lived to be 16. He was never sick ONE DAY of his life.

So - I just agree with those who have stated that more good can come out of neutering than bad.

I am not AGAINST the breeding of sugar gliders - or any other animal. This post was not started to say they should never be bred.

I am against over-population and indiscriminate breeding.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: Dancing] #353347
08/03/07 12:25 PM
08/03/07 12:25 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
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80 acres of paradise in KS
I also want to add from first hand experience...

The dynamics of even established colonies often change drastically, especially colonies with intact males. While this can happen even in neutered colonies, it seems to happen much more frequent with intact colonies.

Fighting for the alpha role happens and in the wild, the "loser" of this alpha war will just move out and onto either another colony or to establish his own. In a cage, they don't have the choice to just move out and these fights can lead to severe injury or more often death without our intervention.

Neutering, and the lowered hormones, reduces the risk of this type of alpha war taking place.


620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: Dancing] #353401
08/03/07 02:27 PM
08/03/07 02:27 PM

P
Prfctchins
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Prfctchins
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Originally Posted By: Dancing
Ok, so a mega breeder with 500 male gliders is going to produce 1,562,500 male offspring in 5 years not counting the females ASSUMING all males are left intact and breeding.

That is a very staggering number of gliders. We do need to shut the "mega breeders" down but that is only part of the problem. The hobby breeders are also producing the same numbers per male.

OK, lets say...

One hobby breeder has 5 producing intact males. In 5 years, with the offspring, that is still 15,625 joeys not counting the female joeys. Does ANYONE here know of 15,625 homes for these gliders? And lets not forget that many "breeders" rehome their retired breeding gliders so we need homes for them too. All the while trying to help the rescues from the mega breeders. It is all so over whelming when you are living with the fall out from the impulse buys and those that see animals as disposable "items".

Also, those numbers are very low to start with. My own Marcell has produced 8 joeys in just over a year, 5 of those are males. (he is getting neutered asap) Out of those, three will be or are breeding. One is going to get ONE set of joeys and get neutered along with any male offspring. The other two are with who I consider very responsible "hobby" breeders who are prepared to keep each and every joey born. One is getting neutered and staying with his parents. But there are also his female joeys.

lol..She understood what I was tryin to say..lol..
I have 4 girls,so neutering is not an issue with me thankfully..
I think it would be a decent idea for the "mega breeders" to sell their older joeys(the ones they don't sell as a baby)at a lower price after being neutered..I know,I know,never gonna happen..lol...it's just wishful thinking...lol

Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: Dancing] #353402
08/03/07 02:31 PM
08/03/07 02:31 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,157
Orlando, FL
GangstersMom Offline
Glider Guardian
GangstersMom  Offline
Glider Guardian

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,157
Orlando, FL
My personal opinion on people that do not want to neuter is that they dont want to take the time or the money to have thier male's neutered. It is easier just to ignore it. Especially if they have more than one male.

On the same note, I still believe that it is everyone's personal right to decide whether they are cabaple and willing to take on the "RESPONSABILITY" That comes with breeding.

I say "responsability", because that is what it all boils down to. The actions that the breeder takes are what decides whether there will be overpopulation of that colony, or inbreeding. And in making sure to screen homes extremly well, before letting thier gliders go.


Last edited by GangstersMom; 08/03/07 02:33 PM.

heart~*~Brandy~*~heart

Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: GangstersMom] #353410
08/03/07 03:02 PM
08/03/07 03:02 PM

L
LissaJane
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LissaJane
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L



I decided to edit this out because it was kind long and it was a point made that I am sure everyone already knows. ^_^

*hugs*

Last edited by LissaJane; 08/03/07 04:02 PM.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: Dancing] #353461
08/03/07 04:20 PM
08/03/07 04:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
thefotokat Offline
Glider Slave
thefotokat  Offline
Glider Slave

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,360
Ft. Pierce, FL
Originally Posted By: Dancing

The dynamics of even established colonies often change drastically, especially colonies with intact males. While this can happen even in neutered colonies, it seems to happen much more frequent with intact colonies.



I have also seen this firsthand...especially if there are females nearby. I haven't seen any problems come from neutering...gliders or my other animals...and my belief is that it's the most responsible course of action. People's lives change...sometime drastically and usually without warning. Even if you are willing to take the responsibility of "natural" breeding, what if you had to suddenly rehome your gliders? Unless you know a glider's history you shouldn't allow it to breed. There is so much unknown about gliders and you can't compare them to any other species. I've got some gliders that came in as rescues who are now permanent members of my family because of the chronic health problems most likely caused by inbreeding. We all feel passionately about issues concerning our gliders. We all want to provide the best life we can to our gliders. And we all want to learn to benefit tomorrow's gliders. Having discussions is one way to do that. There is not much published and timely information about gliders and experience is perhaps our best teacher. I don't take offense at anyone questioning how I care for my gliders because I do everything w/their best interests in mind. Does that mean there may not be a better or different way to care for them? Absolutely not! I am always willing to listen to suggestions even if I don't act on them. I've found GC to be a great place to express opinions and share thoughts and experiences. No one tries to intentionally upset anyone else...we all respect other views...so there's no reason for anyone to be insulted here.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ValkyrieMome] #353465
08/03/07 04:30 PM
08/03/07 04:30 PM

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Melissa2721
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Melissa2721
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Originally Posted By: ValkyrieMome
HelloSugar-

I am SO deeply against pet over-population that it is not just unlikely, but impossible, that I would ever endorse an anti-neutering stance. To me the statistics and evidence which support neutering FAR out-weigh the negative effects.

I've lived with pets my whole life, and have never had a pet who wasn't spayed or neutered. (with the exception of my female gliders).I am not AGAINST the breeding of sugar gliders - or any other animal. This post was not started to say they should never be bred.

I am against over-population and indiscriminate breeding.


My thoughts exactly ! Very well said Val ! clap

Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ] #353476
08/03/07 04:46 PM
08/03/07 04:46 PM

A
AngieH
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AngieH
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The day we are put out of business by responsible breeders who make sure that each and every animal they sell, plus its offspring don't end up in rescue, shelters or pounds will be the happiest day of my life!
Until then all we can do is educate people and yes some will not like to hear what we know, see and touch every day... the very gliders we take in. No one is trying to be mean or hurt someone's feelings.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ] #353573
08/03/07 08:51 PM
08/03/07 08:51 PM

K
kaylakala
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kaylakala
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K



I got my Fizzgig because someone was going to "release him into the wild" I knew nothing. I was going to build him a galvanized steel cage. Thank God I found GC. Fizzgig is 4 he lived on parrot food and fruit. His fur was dull. Very cute!! I had him eating out of my hand before I had him a month. He was intact. Then by chance at my local pet store I got Dart a neuted male. After the month of quarrantine. I tried cages near each other. MY sweet bonded Fizz was soo mean when he saw DArt! (I had wanted to be a breeded Gliders go for fairly decent money arond here.) Please go read about Angieh's Hope for Gliders it will open your eyes to all the horror these little guys go through.
Anyhow! SRR paid for Fizz to be neutered! HE still looks intact and 3 weeks later my boys are totally happy! It wasn't until THey were put in the same cage that Fizzgig looked like he had healthy fur! It is truly amazing!

Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ] #353600
08/03/07 09:55 PM
08/03/07 09:55 PM

J
jungleflockmom
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jungleflockmom
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Quality of life is an important consideration when we keep captive animals.

Neutering improves the quality of life for male gliders maintained in a captive environment. It also improves the pet potential for many male gliders which directly corresponds to their ability to stay in a home or to be successfully rehomed.

The anti-neutering philosophy used to be a popular one but is becoming less and less common.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ] #353957
08/04/07 01:14 PM
08/04/07 01:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover
Lucky_Glider  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
This is kind of provacative because most of us are owners of captive gliders as pets and therefore the ethical boundries between how they get along in the wild versus in captivity is a train that's already left the station.

We have 'em so it stands to reason that we should do what we can to reduce unnecessary death and suffering as much as possible. Neutering has a role in that reduction of unnecessary death and suffering because unchecked breeding - whether in the home or not - has a profound effect on the increase in rescues. I don't know the number, but I'll guess that for every successful rescue, there is probably 3 or more that are "let go," die or are foisted on a bad or worse owner than the one who put it in a rescue state.

On a personal level, this comes down to some hard choices. Like, do you have the time, energy and conviction to encourage more births amongst your own gliders? And does your lifestyle support that committment? We have selectively neutered some of the males in our small colonies and I can tell you it does help to keep things harmonious. We won't have more than one alpha/intact male (of breeding age) in any one colony.





Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: Lucky_Glider] #354916
08/05/07 07:43 PM
08/05/07 07:43 PM

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playingdecoy
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playingdecoy
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Just jumping in with my little personal anecdote here..

I had only ever heard about gliders until I came to college and met my first roommate, who owned a glider herself. I was toootally smitten, and after six months of researching and saving, I bought my first little girls, Kinta and Tillie, both from relatively small-scale hobby breeders.

I'm the type of person who LOVES research and learning - seriously, I'm a big geek. Once I found my passion for gliders, I read everything I could get my hands on. I even checked out scientific articles from my University's library and learned all about seasonal variations in the diet of wild gliders and their totally crazy reproductive systems!

After about a year of having my girls, I decided to grow my little colony. I had owned my gliders for a year before deciding to breed.. I still think that I made the right decision. I bought my male gliders from Priscilla so I could be sure of their lineage the same way I was sure of Kinta and Tillie's lineage. Unfortunately, my personal life took a horrible turn for the worse and I had to sell my gliders, but I made sure that they went to absolutely amazing homes and I still keep in touch.

I will never be more than a hobbyist, because I'm young, still in school (grad student, woo!) and have lots of living to do - I don't have time for 20+ pairs of gliders, but I totally understand that some people do! For me, one or two pairs or a small colony will always be enough.

I'm finally ready to get back into gliders and yes, I do plan to have a little colony again. I'm building a 6'+ cage to house my gliders, and they'll have a constant supply of toys from my local mom-and-pop pet store.

So yeah. That's my bit smile


Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ] #354922
08/05/07 07:52 PM
08/05/07 07:52 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover
Lucky_Glider  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Bex, at least you have a good source for toys. With all the research you've done - you know you're gonna need em!!!


Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: Lucky_Glider] #354925
08/05/07 07:58 PM
08/05/07 07:58 PM

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playingdecoy
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Oh man, I love spoiling my gliders.. my local pet store has the CRAZIEST toys in their (huge) bird section.

Another thing I love about this store: It's an exotic pet store, yes, but totally built on a foundation of public education. As a former employee (who got her degree and had to go get a real job, sniffle), I can vouch for the staff there. We STUDY for our jobs. We do NOT sell gliders, because we don't feel that they can be adequately or humanely kept in a bustling pet store, nor do we feel that we have enough customers capable of caring for them to justify carrying them.

I've already picked out over $100 worth of toys for my gliders.. which I don't even have yet. D'oh! I have a separate fridge for all their yumyums and the place I've picked out for their cage looks so very empty...!

Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ] #354926
08/05/07 08:06 PM
08/05/07 08:06 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover
Lucky_Glider  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Wow what a breath of fresh air that is to hear... A commercial enterprise that refuses to sell gliders cuz the staff knows how spcial they are... wow!!!!!!!

That sure beats the alleged animal killers in this town who are being investigated for burning down their pet store - with animals in it - for the insurance money....

I went in that place 6 months ago and almost gagged at the conditions. We were about to report the place and then it burned... My vet told us about the investigation....

Sorry, back on a high note it sounds like you have some nice friends and it is so cool to hear about the education aspect... [may not reply till much later - going out]


Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: Lucky_Glider] #354962
08/05/07 09:01 PM
08/05/07 09:01 PM

7
7glider7
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7glider7
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7



Bex, I'm betting that's Preuss's? I just moved here from E.L.

Anywho, while that article does point out some downsides of neutering, I still feel very strongly that the main benefits of neutering--preventing a population explosion and allowing males to be better pets and more likely to find good homes--far outweigh the disadvantages.

That article concerns me somewhat as I couldn't tell what journal it was published in or if it was peer reviewed. Even if it was and all those complications were legit, I still think neutering is very necessary for the greater good...otherwise we would have an explosion of homeless gliders who would be suffering.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ] #354963
08/05/07 09:05 PM
08/05/07 09:05 PM

P
playingdecoy
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playingdecoy
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P



Yep, Preuss'. The store does have its downsides, I'm not gonna lie, but they mean well. I think whenever animals are combined with business, someone loses. Preuss is always struggling to balance profit and good business with ethical and knowledgeable animal husbandry.

Anyhoo. BUMMER that you moved away before I got to know you. Who wants to live in Seattle, anyway? tounge

Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ] #354999
08/05/07 10:09 PM
08/05/07 10:09 PM

K
kaylakala
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kaylakala
Unregistered
K



Well as far as neutering goes.... My local "humane" Society destroys 50% of the dogs and 75% of the cats that come to it.
The only place to send a glider is to a my local pet shop which isn't that great as far as gliders go.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ] #355014
08/05/07 10:30 PM
08/05/07 10:30 PM

T
TracyLynn
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TracyLynn
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There is already an explosion of gliders that are suffering. I am located in the midwest and Shelleriddle just rescued a little girl on Friday that came to her in a sock full of sawdust. Miss Sydney is now staying with me while she gets healthy & social and ready for a new forever home. When I contacted the original breeder of this girl today to try to get age & background info on her, the breeder told me she wanted to get rid of all the gliders she has cuz she isn't a night person & they breed like rabbits and nobody around her wants them. I will be taking in the entire family of 7 until the males are neutered and permanent homes are found through all4gliders. She isn't even sure how many boys there are in the cage but mom and dad are less then 2 years old, have had 8 babies so far and they could be more on the way not only from mom, but from any of the older girls in the cage.

Last edited by TracyLynn; 08/05/07 11:57 PM.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ] #355148
08/06/07 02:00 AM
08/06/07 02:00 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
Lucky_Glider Offline
Glider Lover
Lucky_Glider  Offline
Glider Lover

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 340
Van Alstyne, Texas
TracyLynn I call it "God's work" you are doing. Bless you.



Lucky_Glider
Lucky Glider Rescue & Sanctuary
ed@LuckyGlider.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ] #355384
08/06/07 02:26 PM
08/06/07 02:26 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
My thought on this whole thread is... energy needs to be spent on contacting All of the mill breeders and persuading them to Neuter all of their baby males before they go to their new homes.

mill breeders sell Thousands of baby gliders yearly. So take your formula and multiply just as to how many unwanted babies they produce.

Hobby breeders are only a small fraction of the problem. May want to contact those too to see as to how many of them have their offspring Neutered before the little ones go out the door. thumb

Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: Judie] #355399
08/06/07 02:42 PM
08/06/07 02:42 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
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Posts: 22,749
80 acres of paradise in KS
Quote:
energy needs to be spent on contacting All of the Mill Breeders and persuading them to Neuter all of their baby males before they go to their new homes.


Judie, the problem there is the "mills" don't care about the health and well being of the gliders and you end up those like Mike who will take a pocket knife to the little boys.

I really think the only way to shut down the mills is to get the laws changed to where the minimum standards of care (cage size etc) make it either to unprofitable or to much of a pain for them to continue what they are doing.



620-704-9109
Judge not until you have walked in their shoes and lived their lives. What you see online is only part of the story.

I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


The soul would have no rainbow if the eyes had no tears.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: Dancing] #355404
08/06/07 02:48 PM
08/06/07 02:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
ValkyrieMome Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
ValkyrieMome  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 10,983
Denton, TX
That's one of my concerns also, Teresa. If you "make" a mill breeder neuter all the males that leave - well, I've heard too many horror stories of HOW mill breeders neuter.

I'd much rather work towards just shutting them down, or regulating them more strongly.

It isn't even Hobby breeders who were the topic of the original thread.

More, it is people who have just discovered gliders for the first time and decide right away they want to breed. Mills are their own problem. But the concern expressed was for impulse breeding by new glider owners.


Alden
"Animals can communicate quite well. And they do. And generally speaking, they are ignored." Alice Walker


Mom to Valhalla; 6 cats; 1 macaw; 2 hedgehogs;
and very many great gliders!

(plus the 2 skin kids)
valkyriegliders.com

Kyrie, nothing will ever fill the hole you left in my heart.
Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ValkyrieMome] #355440
08/06/07 03:22 PM
08/06/07 03:22 PM

T
TracyLynn
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TracyLynn
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T



Impulse breeding is how I am ending up with the group I am getting. The gal got a pair from a pet store, thought it would be cool to have a baby and now there are 8 needing homes. She had no clue how quickly they breed, or the time & effort involved in glider ownership, she just put them in a cage together & let them go at it. - She doesn't even know how to tell males from females until they get a bald spot and since they are not tame, she has never even bothered to look. The new wore off & she doesn't want to put forth the effort needed.

Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: ] #355561
08/06/07 05:05 PM
08/06/07 05:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Carrie T Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 4,049
Doniphan Mo
Quote:
mill breeders sell Thousands of baby gliders yearly. So take your formula and multiply just as to how many unwanted babies they produce.

Hobby Breeders are only a small fraction of the problem. May want to contact those too to see as to how many of them have their offspring Neutered before the little ones go out the door.


As a hobby breeder no I don't send my boys out the door neutered. I think I consider my babies personalities just as special as you do your pretty colored gliders. Most of my males have gone home and been neutered but like you Judie, I leave that up to the person buying my babies. Thinking any mill breeder will neuter ? roflmao roflmao roflmao

Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: princessmegi] #357761
08/09/07 09:38 AM
08/09/07 09:38 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
Serious Glideritis
princessmegi  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
bump



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Why all the breeding ??? Part 2 [Re: princessmegi] #359758
08/11/07 11:18 PM
08/11/07 11:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
cyndiekb Offline
Serious Glideritis
cyndiekb  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5,916
Cornersville TN I'M HOME :)
How the heck did I miss all this??? Thanks Meg's for posting the joey numbers. If that doesn't say it all then what does?

Do I breed? Yes, small hobby breeder. I have neutered and given away my last 5 joeys. Didn't matter they were 100% het for white or WFB's. Males get fixed. I am going to neuter the one male joey I have here (the first of mine I have ever got to keep smile ) I am also looking in to fixing my 100% het pair and a new lue pair.

Please love your gliders enough to neuter!

PS: also take the time to read some of the stories sent to the SRR after neuters were done. The link is in my siggy.


cyndiekb

I heart & miss you HALEY

My runaways 4/04 Lilo, 5/04 Dash & Angel

angel Sprite Says GO STEALTH!! at
AtticWorx
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