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Breeding Genetics... #409755
11/02/07 02:48 PM
11/02/07 02:48 PM

G
GhostFox
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GhostFox
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My last pair of gliders were normal gray, so I didn't worry much about genetics due to me already knowing what they produced...gray. My wife is now really enjoying the looks of WF and Lue. I was going to try to look into buying one after the new year but instead I'm going to pick-up more hours at work, then try to pick up a joey for Christmas. There are two in particular that I'm looking at: 1.) WFCinn. Het/Lion and 2.) WF Het/50%Lue. I'm wondering if anyone could guide me to which would be the better pick if, in the long run, I would be trying to breed for WF and Lue. There is a $200 difference and about an hour and a half driving distance between them. I realize that it also depends on the male and his het. I'm going to try, after the new year, to get a WF Het/66%Lue for her to mate with. Given that, what would the odds be on producing Lue with the two girls? Could someone please help explain and walk threw how I find that out? Do I stick to Punnet Squares? If so what are the Ab?

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: ] #409758
11/02/07 02:57 PM
11/02/07 02:57 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,087
Manitowoc, WI
BeckiT Offline
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Manitowoc, WI
If you're trying to produce leu, both parents need to be het for leu, so your #1 choice would not work for breeding for leu (unless you meant the glider is het for leu instead of lion dunno ) Whichever you decide on, I'd try to get a 100% get after the 1st of the year, that way you're guaranteed he carries the leu gene wink

Odds of producing leu do go based on the punnet square, but until you can prove the gliders out, there's no way of knowing if they carry they leu gene (referring to the lower %'s)

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: BeckiT] #409788
11/02/07 03:46 PM
11/02/07 03:46 PM

T
TnR
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This may help smile
http://www.epicsugargliders.com/colorbreeding.html

To breed a white face, you need one white face in your pair. There are no white face *hets*.

To breed a Leu you need two gliders who have the Leu gene.

While a 100% garantee's they have the leu gene it also almost always garantee's that the glider has some (or a lot of) inbreeding in it's pedigree.

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: ] #409809
11/02/07 04:22 PM
11/02/07 04:22 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,254
Kansas
queenduck Offline
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Quote:
While a 100% garantee's they have the leu gene it also almost always garantee's that the glider has some (or a lot of) inbreeding in it's pedigree.


Not true, it only garantees that ONE parent is a Leu to that joey (making it a 100%). You can find leu hets at much lesser %'s with more inbreeding. Esp. since many 100% hets are produced by pairing a leu and a glider with no leu background.



Alicia aka Queenduck, Bentley's Nana

We need role models who are going to break the mold ~ Carly Simon
Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: ] #411105
11/05/07 09:54 AM
11/05/07 09:54 AM

G
GhostFox
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GhostFox
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Thank you all for posting! So when if I would get, lets say, a 66% Het Lue, does that mean it has a 66% chance of carrying the Lue gene or it has a 66% chance of producing a Lue?

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: ] #411113
11/05/07 10:12 AM
11/05/07 10:12 AM

L
Leyna
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Leyna
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The percentage is in reference to the the gliders chances of carrying the gene. So, 100% hets are guaranteed to have the gene, 2/3 of 66% will have the gene, 1/2 of 50% hets...

In order to produce a leucistic, you need 2 gliders with the leucistic gene. The only way to be sure you have gliders with the leucistic gene is to either get a leu or a 100% het. A cheaper way to get leu is to breed possible hets, but it's a gamble... There's been a lot of luck with breeding possible hets. I know of several breeders that have produced leus from 50 and 66% hets and even a few from 25% hets...

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: ] #411123
11/05/07 10:38 AM
11/05/07 10:38 AM

G
GhostFox
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GhostFox
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G



So how would you get a possible het? If the one of the parents are Lue wouldn't that be 100%? I guess I'm missing how it may be a het, wouldn't you know? I breed reptiles but I know what gene they carry. I've seen "66% Het Albino" snakes and what-not, but never understood how the "could be". If the parents are what the say, then shouldn't the gene be there?

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: ] #411151
11/05/07 11:27 AM
11/05/07 11:27 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,087
Manitowoc, WI
BeckiT Offline
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BeckiT  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,087
Manitowoc, WI
If one parent is a leu, you're guaranteed they carry the gene. If you pair 2 100% hets, any offspring that are not leucistic will be considered 66% hets. This is because you can get leucistic 25% of the time, 100% leu het 50% of the time, but you also have that 25% chance that they don't carry the gene at all..

So, with a pair of 100% hets, 3 of 4 will be normal colored (not leucistic) and 2 of those 3 normal colored will carry the leu gene

HTH

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: BeckiT] #411178
11/05/07 12:31 PM
11/05/07 12:31 PM

L
Leyna
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Leyna
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Possible hets are produced when you pair hets to hets or hets to normals.

Leu + Normal = 100% Het

100% het + 100% het = 66% het or leu

100% het + Normal = 50% het

I believe the 50% het female you are taking about is my joey. If you want more information on color genetics, feel free to e-mail me.

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: ] #411211
11/05/07 01:25 PM
11/05/07 01:25 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,748
80 acres of paradise in KS
Dancing Offline
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80 acres of paradise in KS
Just because the parents carry the gene, it does not mean automatically that the offspring do. This is why two leus can produce grey joeys.

It has to do with how the alleles line up during the formation of the embryo.

Each joey gets half their genes from mom and half from dad. The joey does NOT get ALL mom's genes and ALL dad's genes. In order for a leu to be born from two leu hets, both mom and dad have to carry the gene AND pass on that specific gene to the joey. IF both pass on the gene, you get a leu joey. If only one passes on the gene, you get a het joey, if neither pass it on, you get a grey.

Unfortunately, without extensive DNA testing, you won't know IF they are a het until they produce a leu joey. (which at that time, 66% het now becomes a PROVEN 100% Het)

??% het simply means there is a ??% CHANCE that the glider carries the gene. The higher the percent, the better chance that the gene is there. (it is like gambling, some play the higher odds, some will risk the lower odds)


620-704-9109
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I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance


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Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: Dancing] #411219
11/05/07 01:38 PM
11/05/07 01:38 PM

L
ltlrdangel
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ltlrdangel
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L



Do the odds and percentages play out the same when dealing with albino or creamino?

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: ] #411242
11/05/07 02:15 PM
11/05/07 02:15 PM

G
GhostFox
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GhostFox
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G



Ok that isn't as confusing crazy Leyna, that is the glider I was looking at, but I don't mean to upset you in anyway. Nor was I doubting you, I just wanted to clear up what a "??% Het" was exactly.

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: ] #411306
11/05/07 03:48 PM
11/05/07 03:48 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
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Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Producing Leucistic, Albino, and Creamino all follow the Pundent Square as the gene responsible for their color is simple recessive.

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: Judie] #411324
11/05/07 04:21 PM
11/05/07 04:21 PM

L
ltlrdangel
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ltlrdangel
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L



ok, Thanks!!

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: Dancing] #411588
11/06/07 01:47 AM
11/06/07 01:47 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,087
Manitowoc, WI
BeckiT Offline
Glideritis Anonymous
BeckiT  Offline
Glideritis Anonymous

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,087
Manitowoc, WI
Originally Posted By: Dancing
Just because the parents carry the gene, it does not mean automatically that the offspring do. This is why two leus can produce grey joeys.
I thought if you paired 2 leus that you'd only get leu joeys dunno

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: BeckiT] #411598
11/06/07 02:00 AM
11/06/07 02:00 AM

L
ltlrdangel
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ltlrdangel
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L



Is there anyone that does breed 2 leus? I have not heard of it. I have only seen where they are bred with WF and leu hets.

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: BeckiT] #411620
11/06/07 03:46 AM
11/06/07 03:46 AM

7
7glider7
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7glider7
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Originally Posted By: BeckiT
Originally Posted By: Dancing
Just because the parents carry the gene, it does not mean automatically that the offspring do. This is why two leus can produce grey joeys.
I thought if you paired 2 leus that you'd only get leu joeys dunno


If leu is a simple autosomal recessive trait as everyone says it was, you would NOT be able to get a gray joey from pairing two leus. You'd only get leus from pairing two leus. Unless you had a spontaneous mutation in the gene line between parents and offspring, which is possible but extraordinarily rare.

As to the next question...as far as I know most breeders have tried to stay away from breeding leu x leu in fear of inbreeding or increasing the frequency of lethal or deleterious alleles that frequently come up when you breed somewhat closely related animals to bring out other recessive traits (like leus).

I could be wrong on this one for sure but I thought I remember hearing that most of the leu lines are too closely related for breeding leu x leu on any sort of a regular scale to be done (please correct me if I am wrong there).

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: ] #411655
11/06/07 09:04 AM
11/06/07 09:04 AM

L
ltlrdangel
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ltlrdangel
Unregistered
L



A lot of the genetic info is kind of confusing, but I find it very interesting! Thank you!

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: ] #411658
11/06/07 09:10 AM
11/06/07 09:10 AM

L
ltlrdangel
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ltlrdangel
Unregistered
L



Oh! I did have another question. How did creamino come about? Does it occur naturally in the wild, or was it something that just came about when breeding different colors? They aren't one uniform color as leucistics are they? I think I remember from a picture I had seen that the creamino has a slightly darker cream colored dorsal stripe, right? Do they have red eyes too?

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: ] #411672
11/06/07 09:30 AM
11/06/07 09:30 AM

L
Leyna
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Leyna
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L



I know of 2 breeders that have breed 2 leus together. Sheila breeder 2 of her leus together for 1 breeding and produced a leu male. Diane (heartlandpoms) breed 2 leus together and produced 2 leus...

Leu is a simple recessive gene. Pairing 2 leus will only produce leus, with the exception of a genetic anomaly.

The cremino color was produced by pairing 2 normal gliders. It's a natural variation of the albino gene. While it is a naturally occurring variation, it's very unlikely that creminos would ever be found in the wild due to their heightened visibility to predators.

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: ] #411739
11/06/07 11:11 AM
11/06/07 11:11 AM

L
ltlrdangel
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ltlrdangel
Unregistered
L



Aren't lues and albinos found in the wild? I would think they would be easier to spot than a creamino.

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: ] #411756
11/06/07 11:26 AM
11/06/07 11:26 AM

L
Leyna
Unregistered
Leyna
Unregistered
L



Albinos, creminos, and leucistics probably all exist in the wild, but they are rare and probably come to premature ends because of their coloring.

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: ] #411759
11/06/07 11:29 AM
11/06/07 11:29 AM

G
gliderfreak
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gliderfreak
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G



Originally Posted By: Leyna
The cremino color was produced by pairing 2 normal gliders. It's a natural variation of the albino gene. While it is a naturally occurring variation, it's very unlikely that creminos would ever be found in the wild due to their heightened visibility to predators.


I didn't know that they came from normal gliders ... Very interesting for sure....


And I'm no expert but from what I do understand is that it is always best to get two 100% leu hets ... I know a breeder who has been working with 50% & 66% hets for some time now with no luck at all. And the two females she has came out of Mac n Cheese line.... Working with the leu line is always a gamble.... I would never get into the leu line for a number of reasons... But reason #1. is only other breeders are going to be able to aford to buy them. And that goes against my whole program plan.... My mission is to offer healthy and tame joeys to the public at afordable prices. I would adore to have a leu as a pet but not as a breeder. BUT my opinion to your question there would be if you want a white face the white face lion is very pretty. And if your wanting to breed for a leu then just get two 100% leus or buy one Leu and put it with a normal glider.

Leu + Normal = 100% leu hets
100% het + 100$ het = one leu out of every 4

I believe that is how it goes. (Sorry I know my spelling isn't the best I'm still trying to wake up LOL)

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: ] #411764
11/06/07 11:35 AM
11/06/07 11:35 AM

L
ltlrdangel
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ltlrdangel
Unregistered
L



How many creaminos are there? I have only heard of one or two.

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: ] #411770
11/06/07 11:44 AM
11/06/07 11:44 AM

L
Leyna
Unregistered
Leyna
Unregistered
L



I know of at least 9, but I'll bet there are more...

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: ] #411778
11/06/07 11:52 AM
11/06/07 11:52 AM

L
ltlrdangel
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ltlrdangel
Unregistered
L



I bet those are very expensive!!!

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: ] #411913
11/06/07 03:37 PM
11/06/07 03:37 PM

L
Leyna
Unregistered
Leyna
Unregistered
L



Creminos run $7500-$10,000. Albinos are a little cheaper $3500-$5000. Leus run $2000-$2500... Then there are mosaics that cost anywhere from $700-$5000.

Re: Breeding Genetics... [Re: ] #412176
11/06/07 09:51 PM
11/06/07 09:51 PM

L
ltlrdangel
Unregistered
ltlrdangel
Unregistered
L



WOW! shock I had no idea they were that expensive! I guess it is safe to say that I will never have an albino or creamino. I do plan to get a leu though.


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