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Leu to Mosaic breeding... #578204
06/28/08 12:21 AM
06/28/08 12:21 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,570
Kansas City, MO
Laurens_Babies Offline OP
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Ok I would love to hear everyone's opinions on leu to mosaic breeding. I know a LOT of people are very against it but I'm just curious why. I know breeding a mosaic from a sterile line to a leu is bad I understand that, but why leu to a mosaic from a non sterile line?? I mean if we can introduce leu hets to mosaics which a lot of people do this pairing why not an actual leu.

I'm also curious about peoples arguments pairing two mosaics together. Is it the same arguments with leu to leu??? Cause I agree that leu to leu shouldn't be done but that is because I feel like the leu lines are STILL way too close together, I don't feel that this is so with the mosaic lines anymore. I know some people feel it is unnessicary to pair two mosaics together because if you pair two mosaics together there is a 3 to 4 chance of a mosaic everytime but a lot of people find this true with mosaic to non mosaic pairings as well..


~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*
Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: Laurens_Babies] #578219
06/28/08 12:43 AM
06/28/08 12:43 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,520
St. Charles, Missouri
Suggiegramma Offline
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I'm pairing my female platinum mosaic with my male leu. I don't see anything wrong with it....She's my avatar. heart


Virginia

Suggies
Sachi,Miuccia,Mignon,Cosette,Blaise,Florianna,Fabio,
Abbi,Fletcher,Eshton,Hansel,Gretel,Sahara,Parker,SugarBear,
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Hollister,Anastasia,Buffy,Tawny,Stormy,Aurora,Chance,Karma,
Kristoff,Ruby.


Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: Suggiegramma] #578238
06/28/08 01:34 AM
06/28/08 01:34 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Guerita135  Offline
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I see nothing wrong with leu to mosaic breeding(as long as the mosaic is from non-sterile lines). It breeds out the leu line AND produces even more unique mosaic babies. wink


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: Guerita135] #578276
06/28/08 06:15 AM
06/28/08 06:15 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,894
NW Missouri
princessmegi Offline
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princessmegi  Offline
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I don't think the issue is so much breeding leu to mosaic, as it is breeding a leu with questionable genetics (from leu to leu pairing) into the mosaic line.



"My doctrine is this: that if we see cruelty or wrong that we have the power to stop, and we do nothing, we make ourselves sharers in the guilt." ~ Anna Sewell, English Novelist
Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: princessmegi] #578286
06/28/08 08:13 AM
06/28/08 08:13 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,212
Garland, TX
Mel2mdl Offline
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Garland, TX
I would think it would depend on the glider's individual lineage, not just Leu to Mosaic. If a glider has a high inbreeding ratio, then they need to be bred out so to speak - or not bred at all. Both on the Leu and the Mosaic side.

I see some really bad pairings from people who should know better... and, even if I could afford a leu baby (or mosaic, for that matter), with some of the lineages I see, I would not get those even just for a pet. JMHO. grin


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Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: Mel2mdl] #578344
06/28/08 11:21 AM
06/28/08 11:21 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 841
Houston, Texas
gliderboy4life Offline
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gliderboy4life  Offline
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Houston, Texas
It is absolutely pointless to pair 2 mosaics together. Looking from a production standpoint you can produce twice as many color gliders if you breed 2 mosaics to something other than mosaic. From experience, if you breed 2 mosaics together you don't get any better color, infact the ones born from pairings like that don't even have as much color. You will still get the same amount of mosaics born from pairing them together as you do with pairing them to normals.

So all together, it isn't bad, but it is pointless. I do however think it would be a good way to controll the mosaic population and not overproduce.

So there's my 2 cents!


Tyler Cleckley
www.GliderBoyGliders.com
Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: gliderboy4life] #578382
06/28/08 12:08 PM
06/28/08 12:08 PM

B
BabyLoveGliders
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BabyLoveGliders
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B



I think what everyone is worried about is the lineages... Not putting leu to leu or mo to mo but BAD lines with anything that will not help breed it out.

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: ] #578414
06/28/08 01:26 PM
06/28/08 01:26 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,570
Kansas City, MO
Laurens_Babies Offline OP
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Laurens_Babies  Offline OP
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Humm well I wonder why I have been warned that if I ever paired a mosaic and leu together the whole community would throw a hissy fit.


~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*
Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: Laurens_Babies] #578425
06/28/08 02:01 PM
06/28/08 02:01 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Guerita135  Offline
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Ohio
Originally Posted By: Laurens_Babies
Humm well I wonder why I have been warned that if I ever paired a mosaic and leu together the whole community would throw a hissy fit.


roflmao

There are alot of great breeders with leu/mosaic pairings. If someone doesn't like it, too bad for them. You're your own person and can do what you want. wink You, obviously, know the rights and wrongs about breeding(no inbreeding, etc...).


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: Guerita135] #578429
06/28/08 02:09 PM
06/28/08 02:09 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,570
Kansas City, MO
Laurens_Babies Offline OP
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Laurens_Babies  Offline OP
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Kansas City, MO
Very true Nichole. I might argue who actually is a great breeder and who is not but not this thread and not today roflmao

I just wanted to hear what other people thought of the pairing and if there was something I was missing.


~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*
Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: Laurens_Babies] #578525
06/28/08 03:53 PM
06/28/08 03:53 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Guerita135  Offline
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Ohio
Lol, I guess I should rephrase that: Some of the most reputable breeders happen to have leu/mosaic pairs. wink


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: Guerita135] #578626
06/28/08 05:58 PM
06/28/08 05:58 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,124
Conroe TX
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Jennifer_Maaske Offline
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Conroe TX
I don't have any leu's or leu hets.. but I have always wondered.

I understand you say leu to leu is bad because they are so closely related.....but leu to lue het isn't.

isn't the leu and the leu het from the same line...just one has the leu color and the other carry...so wouldn't they be exactly the same in heritage....

so, if breeding to a het is fine..why isn't breeding to a lue.

I don't understand the genetics I guess.


Jennifer Maaske
4sugar gliders
2 great danes
1 American Eskimo dog
1 livestock guard dog
4 cats
2 goats
23 chicken
3children
1 Very tolerant husband

www.redemptiondayfarm.com
Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: Jennifer_Maaske] #578635
06/28/08 06:14 PM
06/28/08 06:14 PM

S
Soh
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Soh
Unregistered
S



I think it really depends on the type of het, if that makes sense. If you take a leu and cross it with, for the sake of example, a gray then the babies all only get the leu genes from one side of the family, so those are bred-out hets. If you have a leu and a leu-het (or two leu-hets) breeding and they produce both leu and gray babies then the gray babies aren't really as bred-out, as both their parents are from leu lines. The actual coat color of the babies really doesn't matter nearly as much as their ancestry matters, and the diversity of ancestries in both their parents. So crossing a leu with a bred-out leu-het would be safer genetically than crossing a leu with a het from two leu lines.

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: Jennifer_Maaske] #578640
06/28/08 06:23 PM
06/28/08 06:23 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Ohio
Originally Posted By: Jennifer_Maaske
I don't have any leu's or leu hets.. but I have always wondered.

I understand you say leu to leu is bad because they are so closely related.....but leu to lue het isn't.

isn't the leu and the leu het from the same line...just one has the leu color and the other carry...so wouldn't they be exactly the same in heritage....

so, if breeding to a het is fine..why isn't breeding to a lue.

I don't understand the genetics I guess.


Actually, it's not recommended to breed a leu or 100% het to anything higher then a 50% het. A leu, 100% het, and even 66% het are pretty much the same thing. If you have 2 100% hets that you pair together and they have a leu and a gray glider then there's no difference between the leu and the 66% het. :/

A 50%, however, would be one generation bred out.

There IS an exception to the rule: some hets are from parents that were lower hets that proved out, thus, technically, making the babies lower hets. wink


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: Jennifer_Maaske] #578641
06/28/08 06:24 PM
06/28/08 06:24 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,785
Port Saint Lucie, FL
MatchMakerMagic Offline
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Port Saint Lucie, FL
Two brothers of the same lineage, (one a leu one a 100% het) if you were to breed them to a female leu whether it be the 100% leu het brother or leu brother would be the same EXACT thing. Genetically speaking.

I really dont understand why alot of people think just because one is white it makes it any different... dunno

Responsible breeding is responsible breeding, keeping mind of lineages and relations. Of course there is a question of long term health, but I wonder myself about that since genetically the same genes make up the 100% hets as do the leus they just carry them differently.

Last edited by MatchMakerMagic; 06/28/08 06:26 PM. Reason: spelling

Kinue

ISTJ
When it rains, it pours...

www.serenitysugargliders.homestead.com
Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: MatchMakerMagic] #578673
06/28/08 07:37 PM
06/28/08 07:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,124
Conroe TX
J
Jennifer_Maaske Offline
Glider Slave
Jennifer_Maaske  Offline
Glider Slave
J

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,124
Conroe TX
ok, so you never breed a lue to a 100% lue het...that's where I was confused...I thought that was ok, hence why it made no sense.


lue het to a mosaic is a smart thing, right?


Jennifer Maaske
4sugar gliders
2 great danes
1 American Eskimo dog
1 livestock guard dog
4 cats
2 goats
23 chicken
3children
1 Very tolerant husband

www.redemptiondayfarm.com
Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: Jennifer_Maaske] #578692
06/28/08 08:08 PM
06/28/08 08:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis
Judie  Offline
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Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Hmmmm. Never heard of that rule... of Never breed to a 100% Leu Het.

What then if one breedes a Leu to a Normal?

All of the offspring from above.... would be 100% Leu Het with 50% of their genetic makeup coming from the Normal Gray Gene Pool.

??????

As for breeding Leu x Leu... I think most (including myself) are against it due to the two Leus not offering some diversity to the Pedigree of the offspring that are a result of this breeding.

As to breeding Leu to Non Sterile Mosaic Line... I see nothing wrong with it unless the Mosaic is also a 100% Leu Het and is paired to another Leu that is closely inbred.

breeders are pairing Leus to Mosaics due to demand for lighter mosaics. The offspring if colored command a higher price ticket.





Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: Judie] #578715
06/28/08 08:59 PM
06/28/08 08:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,645
Ohio
Guerita135 Offline
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Guerita135  Offline
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Ohio
Originally Posted By: Judie

What then if one breedes a Leu to a Normal?

All of the offspring from above.... would be 100% Leu Het with 50% of their genetic makeup coming from the Normal Gray Gene Pool.

??????


I guess that would probably fall under the "exception of the rule" as well.;)


~Nicole~

Proudly enslaved by lots of silly suggies, 3 crazy kitties, a huffy hedgie, and a pretty puppy! grin
Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: Guerita135] #578732
06/28/08 09:36 PM
06/28/08 09:36 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
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Judie  Offline
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agree roflmao

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: Judie] #578782
06/28/08 11:12 PM
06/28/08 11:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,785
Port Saint Lucie, FL
MatchMakerMagic Offline
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Well thats what I mean though, leu x leu if related distantly enough isn't any diffrent than breeders breeding 100% hets to leu's for white. Genetically its the same. With all the breeding out that is being done, the lines are getting farther and farther out. If no mind was paid to the color of the gliders, genetically they have the same make up.

Breeding 100% hets opposed to leu's doesn't offer any diversity... Or does it?


Kinue

ISTJ
When it rains, it pours...

www.serenitysugargliders.homestead.com
Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: MatchMakerMagic] #579145
06/29/08 02:13 PM
06/29/08 02:13 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,124
Conroe TX
J
Jennifer_Maaske Offline
Glider Slave
Jennifer_Maaske  Offline
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J

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,124
Conroe TX
I'm watching this post to see if anyone answers matchmakermagic's question....



Jennifer Maaske
4sugar gliders
2 great danes
1 American Eskimo dog
1 livestock guard dog
4 cats
2 goats
23 chicken
3children
1 Very tolerant husband

www.redemptiondayfarm.com
Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: Jennifer_Maaske] #579149
06/29/08 02:20 PM
06/29/08 02:20 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,570
Kansas City, MO
Laurens_Babies Offline OP
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Laurens_Babies  Offline OP
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Kansas City, MO
In my opinion leu to 100 het is still creating the same issues as breeding leu to leu. But not very many people share my opinion in that.


~Lauren

Lauren's Animal Kingdom
*Website is down temporarily should be back up by November!*
Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: MatchMakerMagic] #579153
06/29/08 02:25 PM
06/29/08 02:25 PM

S
Soh
Unregistered
Soh
Unregistered
S



Like Judie and Guerita said, a 100% het from a leu crossed with a no-leu-background gray would provide new genes. Genetics can sort of self-repair minor faults along the way as long as they have unrelated, healthy genes to correct any gaps. The problem with inbreeding is that both sides of the family have gaps in the same genetic areas, so those areas get weaker and weaker and can't repair themselves.

Crossing a healthy, non-inbred gray (or other healthy, non-inbred, unrelated color) with a leu would provide new genetic information to help patch up some of a leu's potentially weak genes. The 100% hets from such a cross would in theory be safer to breed with a leu than a 100% het from two parent gliders both with leu in their backgrounds. Crossing them out even further would add even more fresh genetic repair material, which is why lower-percentage hets are even safer than that.

So it depends on the background of the 100% het you're talking about. smile

Last edited by Soh; 06/29/08 02:27 PM.
Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: ] #579315
06/29/08 06:56 PM
06/29/08 06:56 PM

B
Babydevilsangel
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Babydevilsangel
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B



100% isn't the same as the actual Leucistic... Their dominant gene is obviously different. The Leucistic glider, is obviously white and the 100% het glider, is obviously not white.

In my experience, and I believe the same holds true for many other breeders out there.. You will prove a lower% het a lot quicker if he/she is paired with a Leucistic. When paired with another het, even if it is 100% het, it seems that proving the lower% het takes longer if the dominant gene isn't Leucistic. Does that make sense? It may take so long that you believe that the 25-66% het isn't a het at all.

Every "lower het" that I've kept, that has had time to be proven, has proven themselves as 100%. Recently I had 25% hets prove themselves as 100%'s.... and in doing so, FINALLY proved their mom as 100% too. I've only ever had their mom with lower percent hets, and never a Leucistic, and to this day, she hasn't ever had a leucistic baby.

Anyway.. I may be wrong.. but Twins-- one leucistic, and one 100% het-- do not carry the exact genetic makeup. Just like in humans... Twins, are not identical, unless they are IDENTICAL. =)

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: ] #579405
06/29/08 08:32 PM
06/29/08 08:32 PM

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Leyna
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Leyna
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L



Bec, you are totally correct. A 100% leu het has 1 normal gene and 1 leu gene a leucistic has 2 leu genes. So, their genetic make up is different. But, their pedigrees can be the same. That means the same level of inbreeding...

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: ] #579422
06/29/08 08:46 PM
06/29/08 08:46 PM

B
Babydevilsangel
Unregistered
Babydevilsangel
Unregistered
B



Absolutely! I agree that regardless of 100% het or Leucistic, you still have make sure they aren't too closely related. That's the tricky part!


Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: ] #579549
06/29/08 11:33 PM
06/29/08 11:33 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,603
Nevada
itsasugarglider Offline
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Nevada
@_@


As hard as I try to understand all this... it slips right out.

It must be related to Biology.



And that is why I will leave the breeding to people who know what they're doing.

But I am curious about breeding leus to mosaics too. Even if I don't understand the answer.


It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

The aim of education should be to teach us how to think rather than what to think.

The difference in involvement and commitment is like a ham omelet. The chicken was involved. The pig was committed.
Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: ] #579590
06/30/08 12:34 AM
06/30/08 12:34 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Judie Offline
Serious Glideritis
Judie  Offline
Serious Glideritis

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 9,173
Edwardsville, Kansas 66113
Somehow we are straying off the topic of Leu to Mosaic Breeding. off_topic

Anyone going to ask or answer the question the poster was asking? thumb

Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: itsasugarglider] #579598
06/30/08 12:42 AM
06/30/08 12:42 AM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 5,363
Ok
Sheila Offline
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Sheila  Offline
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Posts: 5,363
Ok
This topic has gotten away from its original question. All of the Mosaics that originally came out of the Dai Green line were already 100% het for Leucistic with Cheese being a Leu and Mac being a platinum mosaic. It has never been determined that the mosaic line originated from Leu gliders and if they did, they were several generations back to where we have no history on them. The original mosaics that were brought in from HM Lines when paired with 100% Leu's never produced Leus. The reason for breeding a Leu or Leu het to a mosaic is that the mosaic is dominate and the Leu, Leu het, or albino gene is recessive. If you are wanting more mosaics, you would breed to something recessive. I do have one pair that doesn't follow this rule at all. They have had five mosaics in a row and she is paired with a wfb 3.5 generation.

Tyler, I don't know anyone who has paired the mosaic to mosaic. Perhaps Priscilla has and that is the information you are drawing from. Please enlighten us because frankly, I don't know anyone that has done so and would love to hear more about that. confused


ToandFro Gliders

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Re: Leu to Mosaic breeding... [Re: Sheila] #580078
06/30/08 06:08 PM
06/30/08 06:08 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,785
Port Saint Lucie, FL
MatchMakerMagic Offline
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You guys are right, I used the wrong term multiple times! lol. When I said "genetically" I was thinking lineages. Genetically "twins" are not the same when speaking of a leu and a 100% het. Its the lineages that would be identical, not the gliders! Sorry for going off topic, was originally just posting on the leu x leu is bad comment. smile


Kinue

ISTJ
When it rains, it pours...

www.serenitysugargliders.homestead.com
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